We will never leave Afghanistan

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I subscribe to Bookchin's libertarian muncipalism strategy personally. Seems like a good way to to create a dual power that's also capable of garnering widespread support from the armed forces

ITT: Bootlickers

Stop LARPING and go outside tankie

you are right, we should support them brave boys

Holla Forums tier

No need for argoments when you have this

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Yeah, those 3 memes were ironic

still Holla Forums tier

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Fuck off.

If tankies aren't going to let other people hold their own opinions and try to enforce a "party line" because they need Holla Forums to be a "safe space", should we ban all tankies? Faggots.

Shocking

This place would be loss entertaining without austic screeching tankies tbh

*a lot less

...

hmmmm

Kill yourself anytime.

Read Marx

Raise class consciousness and make it obvious to them which side is the right one. You will also have to insure their livelihoods. The fact is that you have to make it in their interest to help us. You can't expect to appeal only to morals. We know that doesn't work. Material conditions come first.

Yeah, because they were tired of dying for the Tsar. Sound familiar? But also because they faced a formidable enemy at home and that enemy was willing to let them join while assuring them they'd be taken care of. That means you need to:
Train to be a combatant if need be
Find a way to compensate these soldiers enough to make it less suicidal to join you

...

Do you also believe that if we moralize exploitation enough the bourgeoisie will abolish themselves as a class?

You keep saying shit like this as if the mission was to shoot afghan schoolchildren, when, of course, that only ever happened by accident when faggots used a school to fight in. Of course, you don't blame the religious fucktards that raped little girls and boys and denied them education from the beginning. You aren't saying shit about them. You don't say shit about them planting bombs where civilians passed and tried to pass it off as a US attack. You don't mention how those faggots beheaded people who merely talked to us. No, you don't mention any of that, because apparently the American soldier is the only one ever held to any standards of decency while the Afghan piece of shit savages that make the lives of their own people a living hell are given a pass. Nice job, liberal fucktard. What do you think is going to happen if we ever get world-wide socialism going? We're just going to let these tribal faggots keep doing what they do? No. They still need to be eliminated and innocent people will die, like they do in every war. The difference is that when Americans kill innocents it's almost always an accident, and when they do it, it's always on purpose.

Cry me a river. Almost anything any first world prole does is morally tainted, it doesn't do a lick of good to shout at the proles for their unethical employment of consumption. Proles who join the military just react to economic stimuli, and they commit the warcrimes not because they are evil, but because they are put in a situation where warcrimes occur. Soldiers on operation will always anywhere commit an inordinate amount of crimes. Our bourgois society as a whole needs an army that will do these things, in part to support our bourgeois lives. So for you to berate the soldier proles from your comfortable blood-tainted polyester (blood oil!) chair using your blood-coltan containing electronic device is asinine.

*employment or consumption

It pays their bills. When it stops paying their bills is the only thing that will convince them it's time to do something different.

There is nothing you can say or do to convince them otherwise. That's why the class consciousness model is garbage. You have no means by which you can change their minds, they have to change their own minds and the only thing that will get them to do that is for their material conditions to be brought so low that they're doing all this shit and not even able to make a living from it. They're barely wavering above that line, last time I crunched the math on the enlisted ranks pay brackets. Enlisted make less than minimum wage based on amount of hours they have to put in to the salary they receive, even if you count all the 'benefits' they get, including college, healthcare, etc (if they even take advantage of those things, which the lifestyle of the military intentionally tries to push them not.) It's the officers that are the issue, they still get paid well.

I am surprised how bad the military brainwashing failed if even the foot-soldiers recognize how it's all bullshit.

They are in Afghanistan by accident? Every causality during war is the fault of the invading force, and as bad goat fuckers are, they are fighting for their local agenda. There wouldn't be much of a war without another side. As for world socialism, it'd be a lot closer to a WWII scenario, can't compare that with invading an innocent country.

Though I am not on the "soldiers are baby killers" side. Like most people they are opportunist who pick the easy choice instead of the right one, it's tricky to blame them for it too much, while typing it on a computer made by quasi slaves which materials collected by actual slaves.

I was thinking earlier about this cancerous image thanks for reposting it I guess

Again, you are conflating the individual with the organization. The individual is just doing a job because it's that or McD's and no education.
No, no it's not. You just pulled this out of your ass.
Their local agenda is suppression of women, spread of ignorance, and a hold on tribal power, as well as allowing terrorists to stay within their borders.
Yeah, and the Americans are clearly preferable than a bunch of religious fanatics that like to rape girls and boys for fun.
You don't know what it will be like, and there is no such thing as an "innocent country".
Exactly right.

I talked about the organization. Not blaming any individuals unless they commit actual war crimes.

Would any casualty caused by US happen if they weren't there? No. It's pretty simple.

Sure, just it's all local and their thing. They aren't invading another country to spread their crap.

If that were the case, there would be much fewer insurgents. Whether a specific part of the population gets oppressed or they get bombed randomly, doesn't make much of a difference if you're on the wrong side of oppression. How much did Afghanistan really improve after all this time? Was the improvement really worth 50k dead people?

Operating with the assumption that it will be desired by the majority, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense in the first place.

Now if you want to be overly anal about it, yes but one is just there doing it's own thing not harming anyone outside of it, the other is the invader. Surely, the invaded country is relatively innocent, not?

On how many layers of American exceptionalism are you on pal?
You are not even worthy of a serious fucking response. You are defending imperialism and acting as if the country that created the situation in the first place in that continent, that right now is funinding those same goatfuckers are the good guys in this story. They are hideous but it's your responsability and they are as hideous as you. You don't kill by accident, you are not there to free the popolation, you are not the most moral army. You are the same as them. Terrorists invadors. It was reported numeros times how the us army shooted to civilians and not by accident. Don't you think that bombing their house and invading their country may be the reason why this guy are acting like crazy motherfuckers right now? Spare me this bullshit. Korea, Vietnam, the middle east, the bombings in north africa it's all on your hands. And don't think I'm a fucking liberal because your people and army deserve to be exterminated imho. You can't act all moral while you are there just for expansionist imperialist reasons.

Then I misunderstood you, but I don't see how this ties into the rest of what was said, since all the time we were talking about individuals.
So I guess we can blame leftists for the violence that happened recently because nobody would have gotten hurt if they just let the Nazis march unopposed.
It doesn't matter. Afghans are people too and they deserve to be brought into the modern age and into the future of socialism. Their way of life should not be tolerated just because they're brown.
Those insurgents are reactionaries motivated by religion and a love for a backward way of life.
Except the US doesn't bomb randomly. Again, you're making shit up.
For a while girls were actually being allowed to be educated and infrastructure was improving. You forgot that the US built schools, hospitals, and other things for them in order to make them a more modern country.
Socialism is going to take more than that, and yes, it will be worth it.
Yeah, but pockets of resistance will remain, and they should be wiped out instead of being respected because they're brown. You don't get a pass on a reactionary lifestyle just because you don't reside in Europe or the Americas.
The society actively harms all members involved in it. This shouldn't be ignored just because they're brown.
No. Nobody is innocent.

Even if he was, that individual isn't there by accident either.

Probably the most tragic part about this is that companies like Blackwater are becoming relevant again so they might jump to PMC work which would triple their pay while still being deployed in Afghanistan.

I don't think Americans are exceptional. I just detest the Taliban and whether it's Russia, China, the US, or Mexico(for some reason) wiping them out, I don't see anything wrong with that. These people are fucking evil.
Seeing as how you've never been to war, you wouldn't know any of that. You're just pulling it out of your ass. Americans never fucking got children and old men to shoot at convoys in hope that they'd get killed when the convoy returns fire. Sorry, but there is no moral equivalent. The American soldier is clearly preferable to the Taliban piece of shit savage.
Yeah, that didn't happen. Individual soldiers may have committed crimes, but that's never the goal and those people are prosecuted. The whole goal in Afghanistan was to get the population on our side. You don't do that by killing indiscriminately.
They were doing that before we got there. Child rape, murder, and terrorism aren't new to Afghanistan.
Yeah, the Taliban are totally better and will totally be your bros when the revolution comes, you stupid fucking idiot.

No, they're there because the military is the employer of last resort and some young guys and gals don't want to spend the rest of their life working for minimum wage. Who would have thought that people will work in their own self interest and the whole system is built this way? Focusing on the individual is retarded because it never achieves anything. This is like saying Capitalism could be fixed if only everyone were a moral customer. It's a ridiculous thing to ask for. The whole system must change.

You actually end up working for less than minimum wage in the military. You'd have to be so dumb to enlist these days. You'd make off better working some job at mcdonalds.

Nope I've never gone to war that's true. But I grew up near an american base in South Korea where you animal regulary beated up our people, raped the girls and did all kind of bullshit to get some of that sweet underage pussy. Those weren't talibans, no. It was american U S FUCKING A army that did that. You were the guys that pimped our women, it trough your bases that people get smuggled in and out. Talibans are hideous, the should be killed. They are reactonary. They are a reaction to you motherfucker, read the story of the continet while it never was an utopia before you guys armed groups like the talibans to get rid of the soviets it was more than livable. It didn't happend is bullshit, is fucking proved by soldiers, people who live there and giournalists who give their lifes to report you criminals. No talibans won't be our comrades, But they will be more easily than any other american motherfucker child rapist that is right now doing something awful god knows where withour ever being punished. Fuck you and your bullshit everywere you guys go there is only death and suffering.
Won't ever respond to this
Spare me the "BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT A SOLDIER" routine. Your friends, your family, every buddy army you have will die in a nasty way and in that day the world will be a cleaner place. I will cheer to the sound of you guys suffering.
You are here to shill for the army, go fuck yourself

It's really not bad at all. Also your pay and job are guaranteed. When I got out I had plenty of savings, a car, and a way to go to college. I wouldn't have made that with McDonalds.

Ironic how the tankies in this thread rely almost exclusively on petty bourgeois moralizing instead of actually examining the material conditions these soldiers find themselves in. Expecting someone to have a lower quality of life because they have to do things that are morally questionable is quite simply anti materialist and fucking retarded.

Every time you use your smart phone you are profiting off of slave labor in the Congo, every time you buy cheap textiles you are exploiting third world sweat shop workers who are only one or two minor technicalities away from just being slaves and every time you shop at Wal-Mart you are eroding the economic stability that exists in your own communities by taking money away from far less exploitative private local enterprises for the sake of convenience and saving a few bucks.

Get off your moral high horse. If being a baby killer is what pays the bills and makes your reputation better then people will line up for miles to slit baby throats, it's just """"""le epic human nature maymay XDDDD""""""

If that were true no one would join. You are just doing your math wrong.

How the fuck can I sympathize with someone like

Such an arrogant and vile post. If these are the standard in the army I'll fucking stand In my point and double down on the fact that they need to be killed

The leftists are as much locals as the nazis though. It's closer to a civil war scenario.
It'd work as example if US limited themselves to funding of locals.

They were on the way for that before someone funded local opposition. Now the same someone is back and funding the other side after they lost control of the other guys.

No but it should be tolerated based that they aren't invading other countries with it. Belorussia is a shithole too, and pretty white. Should we bomb the fuck out of them too until they become hardcore capitalists like us?

Just like the invaders then? I recall Bush talking a lot about God, good and evil and similar crazy crap.

After destroying other things. We don't even know how bad they looted the country at this point.

So all the civilian deaths happened intentionally?

If these are indeed pockets who stand up against the will of the majority. The goatfuckers are a pretty large part of the population and own quite a bit territory too.

Almost every society does that, apparently it's only okay to invade them and "educate" them of our superior ways only if they are brown enough and can't defend themselves effectively. If they have some natural resources? Fuck yeah, they need a lot of our help.

Really activates my almond

You could always try to get some context about why the individual would have such views instead of prejudging right away with "keeel em all", and consider how the latter might also affect his attitude towards people on the other side.

Come on, we're not Holla Forums. There is nuance to shit.

Oh, so by that logic, I should complain about black people because some of them seem to misbehave. And it's not like Koreans ever committed any crimes or anything, not at all.
You know, let's send you over to Afghanistan and see how you like the Taliban and who you prefer, you stupid faggot.
Oh, I see, you're just mad that Sgt BigDick fucked your girl and gave you sloppy seconds.
Hey, no worries. If you don't like how Americans do things to S. Korea, just defect to the north. I'm sure you'll prefer them. Obviously Americans are the worst thing to ever happen in your country, you should go to N. Korea where Americans can't touch you or pimp out your women, lol.
Lol, but American soldiers are the baby killers, amirite?
Face it, faggot, you're just mad because you're a loser piece of shit with no actual complaint against individual soldiers.

I'm not saying Americans are saints, but you're not mad because of anything Americans have actually done. You're just looking for excuses.

ITT: american exceptionalism

The math is pretty simple actually. Soldiers work in excess of 80+ hours a week and are always on call to do more by their CO. They only make about 3k a month, which means they get barely starvation wages.

Muh benefits don't matter because the military does everything to keep soldiers from taking advantage of military benefits through peer pressure and propaganda. Don't go to the doctor you're just a pussy, don't go to college the corps will take care of you just like mommy and daddy, etc.

You underestimate how dumb jarheads really are. They do mental gymnastics to convince themselves they're getting a good deal and "military respect" but they actually get a worse deal than somebody working at a fucking clown car circus.

E D G Y
I like american army guys if i have to be honest. When you come to europe and you act all great when you get drunk you usually get your ass handed. Next one will dedicated to you I swear. You are proving my point by what you just posted. You Really Really deserve to be scalped motherfucker

Because of the Americans weren't the predominant world super power right now it would just be someone else doing it.

Are you denying that the Taliban does things that are bad and that most American soldiers are just brainwashed liberals will good but misguided intentions that simply end up being exploited tools of the global capitalist economic system?

Because if you are you are either disingenuous or stupid.

3k/month isn't bad if that's after tax and you don't need to worry about spending it on the essentials of life.

This is just not true, you should listen to the "What a hell of a way to die" podcast. Half they ever talk about is various kinds of military bennies.

ITT
If any of yall motherfuckers had 3 ml of nuance this thread would be good

you get this as a civ on food stamps, shitty cafeteria food doesn't impress me
yea that shared bunk is really nice
you look like a fucking tool when you wear your bdus in public you know that right?

What the fuck are you talking about they all take advantage of their benefits I live in a military town and know tons of soldiers and they literally all get free shit constantly.

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Nobody is saying that it's good, only that its in their rational self interest to join and that it's absolutely utopian idealism to expect them not to.

Hey guys, it's just a little killing abroad. Some innocent fun. Gotta make ends meet. Gotta be a good pawn for our rulers for a while. Besides, I'm killing for our freedoms.

But from comrade to comrade: it's a systemic thing. I have no moral agency, cuz I'm a dumb prole, hyuck and shiiet.

So you see, comrade, I'm protected from blame from all sides, and if you don't like it, well? Maybe we'll bomb you next! Just kidding, haha, just some innocent fun.

p.s. read Marx

That was the goal, but the ANA weren't competent enough to stand on their own. Every time we went out to build hospitals or hand out water and food, they joined us so that the population would associate them with good things after we left. This did not pan out, though. A lot of the good people there were abandoned by the US government after we pulled out.
Yeah, I'm not going to make excuses for that, but that already happened and I still think it's moral to fight the Taliban.
That's a pretty low standard. The holocaust wouldn't have been okay if the Germans only kept it to Germany.
They aren't a backward culture that practices beheadings and routine rape, but in case of a socialist revolution, I think yes, we should definitely take control until a socialist order emerges.
The invaders were there with the goal of implementing a US friendly and modern government as well as fighting the Taliban. We didn't go out there and forcibly convert them to Christianity or anything like that, no matter what the president said.
There wasn't a whole lot of modern infrastructure before the US got there, and we tried to limit destruction of buildings and houses to a minimum. As for things that did get blown up, we had Civil Affairs going around paying people off for shit like animals and other things.
They happened by accident, but that's hardly the same thing as random bombing. A mistake is different than randomly bombing and hoping to hit a target. Stop trying to push this false dichotomy.
And they are a minority in the world. I don't care how numerous they are, their way of life is not acceptable and it oppresses their own population. A worker's state should still seek to eliminate them.
Except nobody said that, and I'd be hard-pressed to find a valuable natural resource in the shithole that is Afghanistan.

Tankies want to genocide Americans but they are the defenders of good morals and civilization trust me guys.

Clinton gutted welfare so much in the 1990s that someone would be lucky to even be accepted to receive food stamps today, even the pittance they hand out. Good luck feeding yourself on $60/month.
More dignified than sleeping in the street.
Not when on the job, which is most of the time for enlisted soldiers.

It would be swell if there was a social safety net that didn't require you to kill others overseas, but there isn't.

Jesus kid, don't cut yourself on all that edge.

m8, you typed that on a computer made by multiple slaves all throughout the production process.

What you are saying doesnt even make any fucking sence, if it wasn't a good deal no one would do it. Learn 2 materialism you stupid faggot.

PragerU tier. Shouldn't even be allowed to breath. Kill youself. Newfag. What you are saying is like going on Holla Forums and shill for sionista propaganda

Okay, I'll apologize. I'm sorry my buddies in the Army gangbanged your crush and your sister. Next time I'll tell them to at least go one at the time to be polite.

No one is clean.

They just see the home for what it is and go with it instead of trying to fight it. It's the wrong decision but one that absolutely makes sense.

Something, something, propaganda. Something something, culture of extreme bigotry and nationalism. Something, something, the cult of the military. Something, something, kill yourself.

Food stamps are easy to get nowadays, you're just too lazy to fill out a form and would rather shoot at afghan children for your meal ticket.
Wow you really got me there
So you're telling me your life as a soldier requires you to live your job 99% of the time you're in public? How is that freedom exactly? Some kid working 50 hours a week at a fast food job at least gets to spend the rest of the time in that week doing whatever the fuck he wants, instead of licking boots and waiting desperately on the line for your CO to call you to clean up his cum stains after he fucks your gf.

Now you are just having a full blown ptsd attack. That your pill robson, maybe tonight you will sleep without seeing your dead pal getting raped and killed by goatfuckers you invasors. Also I'm pretty sure jody didn't go polite with your girl, sister and mother while you were fighing for her freedom. Freedom to chocke on a cock while you were larping as the great white liberator

He is literally arguing for the genocide of Americans.

...

For american imperialist clastraitor liker him? All day long baby

Compared to what most have it legit is a good deal. I was in and I'll say it right now: That was the best gig I've ever had. Of course, it mattered that I was young and my whole squad were my buddies, but shit was great for me.

But the tank isn't expectin>>1997895
g them no to do it, he has clearly accepted the reality that people enjoy blasting the monkey men for the gov bux. He's saying it is wrong to do so, and I seriously doubt Marx would be sitting here chortling at him like some of the chucklefucks here just because his ideals aren't warped by money. I think if he killed someone and a "muh rational interest makes moral dumb", he would feel something while they'd rationalize it away.

I agree with this guy.

Clearly we all have equal sins, and should all take a hard look in the mirror. Absolutely ridiculous, I didn't buy tickets for this act.

Whatever makes your conscience numb, little soldier.

They perform sweat shot labor because it's the best deal available to them. It's that starvation or being a whore.

They chose the best option available which was a sweat shop. Again, learn 2 materialism.

So moralizing is bad when it's killing arabs but if someone talks about genociding Americans suddenly they are the devil?

Just because you can't see the blood on your hands because it's far away doesn't mean it's not there.

"I didn't kill those kids, it was materialism!"

Fucking moron - you talk about talkie "idealism" but pretend like the military is still like we're in 'Nam.

News flash the military is mostly middle class and petty booj, not muh "fallen proles"

In Imperials America, the military isn't a place to turn starving people into revolutionaries - it's a thoroughly middle class and reactionary institution that needs to be abolished because it will not be coopted due to the soldiers' class interests.

Look at their own fucking propaganda if you don't believe me.
stripes.com/news/us/volunteer-force-middle-class-us-with-a-southern-drawl-1.331777#.WZnwPIUpCEc

Actually both are bad.

It's absurd to insinuate that most of these people enjoy killing, especially considering the extremely high rates of suicide among veterans in burgerland. It's almost like these are poor people being used by the state, discarded when they're no longer useful, and then kill themselves because of the horrors they've seen. But let's demonize these working class folk because it makes us feel like superior, morally just humans.

exactly. it's a good deal so it's fully justifiable.

Kek, I was a kissless virgin when I joined, then I went to Germany. Boy, they sure do love Texas.

Oh, no I totally have PTSD now. You're a stupid faggot looking for any excuse. Yeah, I know guys that didn't make it, but at least they were men, unlike you, you faggot.

It's okay, though, remember, though
Indianhead: Second to none
Enjoy your sloppy seconds, gook.

Nah both sides have a point and we should just let them fight it out

More like: "You on foodstamps? Get a job, dirty nigger!" & "You a soldier? Gob bress! Marry my daughter! Thx for fighting from my freedumbs"

More evidence for your idealist bootlicking ass

"According to a 2008 study by the Heritage Foundation, enlisted recruits in 2006 and 2007 were actually more likely to come from middle or upper class neighborhoods than from lower class ones. In fact, the numbers showed that Americans who came from a neighborhood where the median household income was lower than $40,000 were underrepresented among military recruits during those two years, while those from neighborhoods where the median household income was above $40,000 were overrepresented. There data showed that representation among said recruits increased as neighborhood median household income increased."

m.mic.com/articles/59699/one-stat-about-the-u-s-military-that-will-surprise-you#.ydeD1JUz0

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In summary, the American military is already made up of the downardly mobile petty booj fucks who made up the Freikorps. They will never be a revolutionary body for that reason alone

Dumb as fuck. That shit doesn't pay for school, and a lot of guys get kicked out at 18, especially in the south. Family income doesn't really matter when you've got nothing yourself.

You're right. Let's make all soldiers and vets our enemies. Surely that will go well.

Deal with the content of the argument you

*sniff*

I'm not saying all soldiers enjoy killings. I agree soldiers are used and abused by the state as a means to an end, but I'm not going to handwave any sort of personal responsibility. They have a choice, they choose to join the army, they choose to pull the trigger. These are all choices you can 'directly' make or not. This isn't abstract, like "Get rich lmao".
I don't feel morally just at all. Actually the comment about slave labor for the phone gets to me, I just also realize it's not as bad as murder. I also understand their are benifits to what they do, but if we justified crimes by their benifits, there would be no crimes.

The argument is based on the veracity of the report, which I doubt.

Obviously there are some poor soldiers who can be convinced but this isn't the Tsar's army and you're not going to magically convince the military to come to your side by telling them you'll be good for poor people. Why? Because all evidence shows they're not poor!

Moralfaggotry over materialism is the number one problem with the left today.

And the military's own report which is cited in the Stars &a Stripes article?

What is Heritage's interest in falsifying the class background of the military?

Killing an insurgent isn't murder. Contrary to popular belief among leftists, most soldiers are not war criminals.

You probably are a kissless virgin right now faggot. No woman would fall so low for a redneck ass virgin like you.
WHAT A HERO.
The nastier you guys go the better, pretty sure that for the brave guys it wasn't enough. Probaly they pissed and shitted themself to death like you little faggot everytime you see a girl.
Now go fuck your cousin or something redneck.
I'll enjoy every american ass as soon as they come here in europe. And boy they love being fucked by someone who doesn't share their surname

Wow how rational. Praise America.

$40k goes a long ass way in the South. This is spoken like someone from the North east.

But now we're getting into hypotheticals about these soldiers' family/lives which is not a useful way to discuss this.

How many of these people do you think actually understand the implications of joining the US military? Sure, they all understand it involved killing, but to expect them to all be well informed intellectuals who understand what american imperialism is when they first join is unreasonable in a system that bombards them with propaganda and lies. And when you're in it and you understand, what else are you supposed to do? Desertion means imprisonment. Did they make a choice to kill? Definitely. Do they know why and for whom they're killing? I would say that for 99% of them no they don't.

I can think of at least 10 problems that are higher. The left is so fucking shit today.

Not even an argument.

I'm just pointing the contradiction. If people were only joining the military out of rational self-interest then why are they also killing themselves? There is a lot of ideology in this thread.

Middle class is a propaganda meme. People who are one step away from being in the projects call themselves middle class and so do people who make 600k a year. Middle class is a meme to trick lumpen proles into thinking anything other that capitalists and working class actually exist.

Sure but US used religion and religious rhetoric to go ahead with the invasion. It was never sold as humanitarian mission.

If it happens often enough to kill hundreds of thousands, "mistake" just doesn't do it. I am not saying the majority of it was intentional but if the approach is so careless and causes so much damage, the actual motivation doesn't matter too much for the people affected by it.

There are fucktons even if we ignore opium. Come on, 30sec of google would answer that.

As for the rest, it's a much bigger topic for a different thread. Where to draw the line of backwards culture and when intervention becomes a necessary action, it's tricky. Would it be okay to invade Germany if they didn't go up to extermination camps and just stuck to work camps and slave labour? What about NK? And if yes, why shouldn't one invade US for imprisoning a much bigger part of their population, and often on racial grounds?

Ending your own mental torment can also be in your rational self interest, especially when you don't have any access to treatment. Nothing ideological about it

If it wasn't for the odd mention of socialism here and there I would swear these were a bunch of neo-cons justifying US imperialism, is this a raid?
Also, is the choice seriously between flipping burgers and joining the army? Is it seriously impossible to get an education or learn a trade skill or something, anything other than willingly getting shipped to a country you have no reason on earth to be in and kill people?

Unironically yes.

Sorry if that hurts your fee fees.

Do I need to sit down and find some statistics to prove soldiers aren't innocent dindus? That wasn't even the point I was making, I dont think most soldiers are war criminals, so I actually don't need to defend that strawman at all.

Let me clearly iterate, I am NOT arguing soldiers are all aware of what they are doing, I'm not arguing it possible to live ethically under Capitalism, and I'm not arguing that soldiers are sadistic demons from hell. I AM pointing out it is silly to say "muh rational interest" when that doesn't actually explain how the U.S. military isnt in the wrong.

Weather or not we agree with the decisions these people have made it's not a matter of debate that if a revolution is going to succeed we need the military on our side and refusing to look at them like they are actually human beings with their own interests and just insisting that they are all baby killing monsters isn't going to help.

If you wanna get Friekorped then please continue what you are doing.

Just because something is true doesn't mean it is non-ideological

Maybe not but there is wage cuckery and mcdonalds. That's still better than killing anyone. And if you'd rather kill someone for your college education, well you are an asshole

What about non combat rolls in the military like engineers and paper pushers?

I mean… without turning this into a debate on ethics… you are clearly offered the choice to work at McDonalds or to kill people for porky. If that's not an ethical choice you can make then the word has no meaning.

The U.S. military is most definitely in the wrong, the individual soldier is merely a pawn in a game they don't understand until it's too late.

Why exactly is someone being an asshole relevant? Our mission is to create a world where people in general are happier (within reason; if some fucker is consuming a grossly disproportionate amount of resources and is actually happy for it we'll unfortunately almost certainly have to screw him over, but that's because we can only do so much and not because he "deserves" to suffer or whatever), not a world where "bad" people are worse off and "good" people are better off.

Jeez, they unironically did nuffin. They are just there. They are not doing anything bad, if you really need to go to the army ypu should do that

Selling greaseball burgers at McDonalds is killing people, or maybe you could call it assisted mass suicide.

It's not relevant to the cause. I was just pointing out that acting in such self interest is pretty disgusting.

No it doesn't. t. someone who lives in the South and works for barely more then minimum wage

Seems more on point. It's basically like selling cigs or illegal drugs, people are still making the choice in the end, although the substances in question nudge them to the negative side.

So they get to keep the ideological brainwashing they've been displaying in this thread, claiming they were actually there to help and their presence was oh so beneficial? That's gonna go SO well with the revolution.

Nihilism was a mistake.

I agree it's more ethical but that doesn't make me feel better about it. Christfags better hope they're wrong or god accepts relatively ethical behavior.

Happy ending I can agree with.

Why?

*Invades your country for the lulz*

All they are telling you is their own personal intentions. The Taliban are pretty fucking terrible, and killing them isn't something to feel bad about, but you are right on the whole, their presence has proved to be counter productive and only served to further destabilize the region.

What I'm trying to say is that MOST of these people are misguided youths trying to do the right thing and we need them on our side of we don't want to get shot to death in the streets.

How do we do that? What is YOUR suggestion?

Fuck off dumbass. The US doesn't invade countries "for the lulz". I'm interested in genuine arguments.

Because Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11 the Taliban offered to turn over Al- Quaeda operatives to the Americans and the Americans refused and we have been there for 16 years and the Taliban now controls more territory than when we started.

Wars of aggression are war crimes, so at least for Iraq, Syria, and Libya the US military was criminally in the wrong. The Afghanistan war has some justification in self-defense, but all that went out the door once OBL died. Now you're just there to prop up a puppet regime.

This guy has some hot takes.
I guess it's their religion :^).

It seriously does tho. If not for the lulz for expansionistic, economic, imperialist resasons. They never had a real reason to start a war after pearl harbour. Korea, Nam, Middle east. They weren't a threath for them

The U.S. military industrial complex is a tool of the bourgeois to make money, both through creating a massive arms industry and also by being used to exploit foreign resources.

We did it because Bush was lied to by Dick Cheyney about the nature of the Taliban and that is where we though Osama Bin Laden was and we ended up just fighting the population this whole time ravaging the country, it's people, and their natural resources.

is obama unironically worse than bush

Ayyy. Don't act like the fucking president was so clueless. He was an idiot yes but c'mon

Yeah probably, especially since he put a nice face on american imperialism. Usually anti-war libs thought black bush could do no wrong.

I'm of the firm opinion that each successive person that's held POTUS has been worse than his predecessor…

I think it's because Americans keep on reaching for more and more "radical" presidents who do nothing but radically fuck the Middle East.

After reagan I agree. Reagan is still the worst

OK we made some strategic mistakes, that's not a reason to say that the US military as whole is bad though. You can't always know everything and execute perfectly.

So what? I don't put much stock in bourgeois laws and I don't think most people here do either.

Everything is a tool for the bourgeois to make money. That's just capitalism.

Are you claiming that George Washington was some paragon of excellence who did nothing wrong ever and was better than Lincoln?

go suck a dick

Destabilizing things for money is what capitalism does stupid

Oops, I forgot we support Capitalism here, my bad. Are you retarded?

*Invades wrong country two times*

Genuinely don't know what you are referring to. If anything I'm trying to figure out right from wrong here.

STRATEGIC MISTAKES!?!?! Invading 2 different countries that had nothing to do with the people who attacked us is beyond a strategic mistake.

That is like off the ILL attacked the UK instead of asking the Americans to help them defeat the terrorist group they just invaded France and Austria instead.

KKK not I'LL, fuck auto correct.

Yes we oppose capitalism, not the military. Do you also oppose computers because they are a tool for the bourgeois to make money?

War crimes are wrong. Wars of aggression are warcrimes. Therefore wars of aggression are wrong.
Or if bourgeois terms spook your brainlet mind so, wars of imperialism are wrong, and the US military is in the wrong for conducting them.

False dichotomy, just because I don't support the U.S. government military doesn't mean I don't support force. In case you feel like shooting into the dark some more I also support gun ownership. If you want to stop moving the goal posts as well we can actually talk.

Not in the slightest user, I'm saying its progressively gotten worse with time. Something can be shit at inception and worsen with time, and I genuinely didn't think I'd have to make such a distinction here…

Check that morality, namefag.

I'm not moving the goalposts. The subject is still the current US military establishment just as before. To make it perfectly clear, capitalism is inherently destabilizing and this manifests itself in imperialist military wars but also in things like mass unemployment, rural flight etc.. I just see US military power as a necessary part of the modern world. If the world changes in a way that it is no longer necessary then that would be for the best. Until then anti-war and anti-imperialist action is at best a distraction and at worst destabilizes things even more. Ending US hegemony without ending capitalism isn't going to make the world a better place, it will make it worse.

Calm down it was just a meme. Now come here and give daddy a kiss.

I of course know amerriga has done war crimes and le following orders meme has gone too far but seriously, american genocide? So we should genocide every group of people that had an empire? That would be a lot of people

Truly an interesting, well evidenced point, I'm sure. Please go on.

You think wars will stop once America isn't the one starting them? You think the US can just pull out of the ME now without any consequence, without nobody else rushing to fill the vacuum? You can play the blame game but that's not what I'm interested in.

This thread lost steam and what you're talking about isn't interesting to me in the slightest. No shit the middle east is unstable, I literally made a point about that earlier. I think you just want to rgue about an inane point with how you writing. Just my spider senses.

...

Exhilarating nothingness.

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One of my best friends was on the ground in active combat from 2002 to 2008. The war turned him LibSoc. His opinions on what he did, why we're there, and what its doing to the world hit harder than any normie anti-war intellectual I've heard in my life. Turns out seeing your friend get hit directly by a kinetic RPG round and clearing houses with a shotgun for six years really gives you a special hatred for imperialism (and yourself).

Honestly, it takes talking to veterans about leftism in an empowering manner before the white nationalists get them. Say what you will about DSA, but their vet group is doing a good job at it.

...

When I read the news about homeless vets or ex military specially crippled being beaten on the streets after their wife divorced them and took everything I laugh my head off.

How rude of me forgot the ones who drink themselves to death or do the world a favor and shoot themselves.

t. Republican

Peace for soldiers
Land for peasants
Bread for workers
All power to the Soviets

Nope try again faggot.
Sides republicans are heavy army boy ball lickers

Gosh that sounds really familiar. I can't quite place where I've heard stuff like this before. Hmmmmmmm guess we will never know.

This 1000 times

Please date this entry, I need to know if this is the thought of an American or Soviet soldier.

Liberals (you) will get bullet too

It could be British as well.

ITT: newfag Americans still recovering from liberalism argue that American soldiers are generally alright against newfag Europeans and third-worlders still recovering from nationalism who think that enlisting in a military means that a person wants to rape babies

Goddamn, will I be happy when this recent influx of faggots finally settles in and starts reading.

Don't worry, you are leaving afghanistan alright :-)

Not good enough they should be in pieces in bargain bin dumpsters.

I don't necessarily disagree; the whole current global order is indeed based on US primacy. But, it has to be recognized that even in this frame, a lot of the actions of the US military have been negative towards the global order. The global economy as a whole would have fared better if Libya and Iraq were still as they were, happily producing oil, which would have been beneficial to most of the capitalist class. So it is obviously not a particularly effective instrument of global order.

lmao the fucking ideology mein gott

These soldiers don't want peace; war is their salary.

kill yourself anytime

#Notallsoldiers
#Supportourtroops
#Throwchildsinthemeatgrinder

This is your brain on Stalinism.

undialectical people (you) will get the bullet too

This thread lost steam because you and all the other retards realized they had no arguments. First you tried to strawman my position and make it about gun rights of all things and then you say you aren't interested in arguing. Nice excuses, loser.

...

will this be this generation's nuremberg defense?

also i'm definitely not hating on all soldiers, but at least 60% of yall should get the bullet from some afghan farmer, just saying.

It makes me proud as an American to know my great grandchildren will get to fight in Afghanistan to defend liberty, and the freedoms we enjoy on a daily basis in this great country.

It makes me proud as an anti-american to know that your grandchildren will get to fight in Afghanistan and to return without a limb or two or maybe, even better, dead.