/postirony/

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Other urls found in this thread:

apotheism.org/index.php/2017/01/26/memes-do-not-exist-memetics-as-anthropotechnics-and-the-zero-entendre/
youtube.com/watch?v=ZJmEMeY6KVs
boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/138453296
on-memetics.blogspot.com/2013/11/on-lamarckism-in-cultural-evolution.html
on-memetics.blogspot.com/2012/01/stephen-j-gould.html
wired.co.uk/article/richard-dawkins-memes
thephilosophersmeme.com/2017/03/09/post-irony-against-meta-irony/

dril

It's the dialectical sublation of irony and non-irony.

bump

Post-irony is the entire basis of alt-right movement.

When you watch anime all day, masturbate to traps, rely on NEETbux as your sole income while living in your parents basement and you spend better half of your day making cartoon frog memes and posting them on Holla Forums while pretending on the internet to be a serious advocate for actually reactionary views and fascist ideology, that's post-irony.

In short, it means that you with your full heart advocate for something that would remove you from existance, but you do it anyway because it brings you some twisted joy.

The idea is that early in a given culture or in-group, a thing is enjoyed or liked ironically, or as a joke. Older 4chan was a great example of this, from the boards I went on what is now know as /mu/core and the "meme trilogy" on /lit/ were examples of ironically or jokingly enjoyed music and literature. Though, post-irony comes about when newcomers come and start to enjoy these jokes completely seriously, without a joke, in order to attempt to fit in with the new society.

At least that's what I remember seeing.

Post irony is when the lines have been blurred where it is no longer easy to tell if someone is being ironic or not.

It HAS to come from a point of irony.

Example, Holla Forums uset to be ironic where edgy kids would say shit like dumb nigger xdd its da jews! while having some mild real conversation between groups that wasn't all shit posting you had a few communists arguing with conservatives and liberals.

But people from stormfront saw Holla Forums with the IRONIC humour thinking they were in good humour so they migrated, and so newfags were influenced to become unironic Nazis.

To the point you can not tell if someone is pretending or not. Its blurred lines.

The United Caliphates Of Burgerstan need to be invaded by a communist world power or a powerful international alliance of socialist states and the population re-educated by a Marxist-Leninist occupational force in order to break the imperialist power The Eternal Eagle wields across the globe and halt the flow of anti-communist, pro-capitalist, counterrevolutionary propaganda that infests the collective conscious of the workers of planet Earth.

America is the shit stain on socialism's underwear, the crackling in the right bud of the left's earphones, the fly in the worker's soup, a cancerous, malignant growth that must be cut from the body of a recovering world on the path to full communism and must be dealt with swiftly and without mercy.


LOL JK I'm being a post-ironic tankie:D:D

post irony is the thirst for annihilation incarnate, it stands for nothing other than itself. post irony is the negation. Sam Hyde and Nick Land are products of the current state of capitalism and the development of digital media. The culture of the 00s has more in common with the 1st modernity of 1870-1945 with its decadents, its fascists, its futurists and its revolutionary conspirators than with the post war golden years, nothing but a sunny anomaly in the greater scheme of things. we are again directly faced with decay and our own mortality, the full dehumanising power of the machine. This is the age that gave us Crowley, D'Annunzio and Marinetti, but also Lenin, who was as much a child of Nietzsche as one of Marx.

The schizophrenic is the exterminating angel of late capitalism–Deleuze

The old world is dying, the new world struggles to be born. now is the time of monsters–Gramsci

Post-irony is when you genuinely believe or enjoy something, but you express that belief or enjoyment in such a way that it seems like an ironic in-joke to an outsider.

Forgot to take off shitposting flag.

Interesting post.

yeah

honestly american culture is going so abstract lately i am inclined to think we are watching a neo dada movement emerging, have you ever listened to lil pump and the other XXL freshmen?? shit doesn't make sense, but Capitalist USA doesn't either, it's their muse capturing the Zeitgeist and making art out of it

ouu

Irony Twitter is better than Irony Youtube by fucking lightyears of miles

Even if you hate Twitter you know I'm fucking right

You sound like a gigantic faggot doomed for suicide

what's irony youtube?

Exactly

YTP?

thought that was more of a bored teenager that will work with visual arts/advertising in the future youtube

Post irony is where you say exactly what you mean and mean exactly what you say but do it in a sarcastic tone so people think you are being sarcastic, or otherwise justify it in a way that makes people think you're not serious.

Contrast with meta irony. For both meta irony and post irony, the background is that irony has become an accepted norm that can now be subverted (where irony used to be the subversion of the norm). Post irony subverts regular irony by using its form but returning to the original content. Meta irony subverts regular irony by building on it. Regular irony subverts non-ironic (genuine/earnest) communication by taking normal statements and changing the presentation (tone, context, etc.) to change the actual meaning. Meta irony changes the structure as well, to shift the focus from the meaning of the idea to the structure as a whole.

Examples
Genuine: "I hate Jews."
Ironic: "I hate Jews; they make whites look bad."
Post-Ironic: "Hahaha I 'hate' Jews! ;-)" (actually does)
Meta-Ironic: "Jews are literally another species who are alien to this planet and manipulating society to destroy itself, but that's good because this society is a trainwreck and they're just quickening the process."

Oh, thanks for reminding me of what I forgot to include here
Sam Hyde is post-irony.
Tim and Eric (and most of that sort of humor) is meta-irony.

This. Post-irony is a symptom of late stage capitalism–the end result of years of social alienation and cynicism fermenting within society.

Maybe I'm wrong here but my understanding of post-irony is that its a cultural stage where irony has become outmoded or unfashionable as a form of popular expression. To bridge this impasse there is an attempted return to sincerity, which is quite apart from authenticity, but the subject/society is too jaded, too cynical, to ironical to be sincere in an authentic sense.

I'm often reminded of the famous Pajama boy image where a talk about healthcare is made into a Pajama party. We know healthcare is a life and death issue, we understand that grown men or young men sitting around in Pajamas and having a pajama party is childish, we know that this political approach is both a a trivialization of the topic and an infantilization of the people involved. But its considered in poor tact to ridicule it because "hey, at least their trying to make a difference" :^) the unstated truth being that the underlying state of the world is so bad that we must all settle for good intentions and doomed noble efforts.

The infantilization of politics by liberals in the use of Harry Potter as a way to explain politics or posting #resist on your twitter feed when you have no intention of taking up armed resistance or even risking arrest/injury are good examples of the bad faith of post-irony.

To bring it back to chan culture I was a young Holla Forumstard I remember people used to ridicule 00s hipsters for saying they did things "ironically" but once that became a mainstream thing in society that the notion that you'd do anything ironically is palpably ridiculous because that's exactly what you'd expect things started to move the other way. Now, since it was uncool, it became cool on the chans to do things or say things ironically.

As others have noted post-irony on the chans is expressed by "ironic Nazis" and racists who are actual Nazis and racists. Maybe I'm belaboring a point here when I say that the "ironic" Nazis believe without truly believing–in their heart of hearts, they know what they believe is spurious from many perspectives but cling to their "truth" via their neo-concerity which satisfies both the both the big other narratives that they have in mind and their micro-narratives.

In effect, they are one in the same thing, the "meta-narratives" they espouse are not real commitments to a universal truth but projections of the micro-narrative of their personal lives "e.g. a black guy was mean to me once therefore anuddah shoah is real, a girl I liked once dated a black guy so essentially they are all endowed with giant cocks controlled by the Jews etc."

Everyone is at least subconsciously aware that the suspicion of meta-narratives, the emphasis on voice, has become its own meta-narrative but we remain suspicious of any grand ideas, anything bigger then ourselves, so we are stuck with a post-ironic neo-sincerity where expressing ourselves and doing small acts of kindness, small actions that indicate what we think is right is the only narrative permissible.

Even activism has become a show where neither side truly believes in an authentic sense that the end-result will truly settle or change anything. That's simply my take, feel free to object or critique.

*neo-sincerity

The way I understand it, post-irony is acting as thought you're naively sincere while actually being ironic. It's a bit like dry humor, but with sincerity instead of being deadpan. It's sort of like the humor that makes "so bad it's good" movies fun, only with post-irony, it's intentional. I've heard Tim and Eric described as "post-ironic"

So post-irony would be like Nanking a seemingly sincere Nazi propaganda video while it's actually an ironic jab at Nazism (usually by making it kind of low quality)

This is a very good explanation.

It's funny how in a sense it looks like one of those genuinely ironic posts on Holla Forums that goes to create length explaining and theorizing on a meme. In the same way this post would've been a similar joke 10 years ago but now irony has become so genuinely complex that now a post like this is explaining an actual social phenomenon.

Also what the fuck happened to irony meaning something being the opposite of what you'd expect, like drowning in the desert? When did it become a synonym for facetious?

It's the exact opposite. It's acting as if you're being ironic when you're actually being sincere. Regular irony is acting sincere while actually being facetious.

This. It's about context

since Neetzsche

*sniffs post-ironically*

This is a good set of examples.

It still means that. People have always misused the word though, typically to mean "poetic." This use of irony is actually 100% correct though. Facetiousness/sarcasm is and always was a form of irony. You would expect people to mean what they say but when they say the opposite of what they mean, i.e. the opposite of what you'd expect that's irony. It gets complicated and confusing when you start layering in dead metaphors and other linguistic conventions that rely heavily on context.

As to where this use of irony and multiple layers of irony comes from, I was doing this with other posters on 4chan back in the '00s. I'm sure other people did it other places before that. The point then was basically art for the sake of art ("Trolling is a art"). It was a game of developing context through a milieu of memes so that you could make increasingly "deep" memes and posts. By deep what I mean is that you could communicate a lot with little effort. For instance, wojak came to symbolize a fairly complicated set of ideas that could be called on for reference instead of having to type it all out ("I feel alienated from normal society - can't relate to normal people who can't relate to me - but at least I can relate to other alienated people" etc.). The spread to social media isn't really different from what was happening before. It mostly just makes the "meme pool" evolve more quickly and have a wider range of source material and sentiments.

Some memes, like doge or Pepe (who is mostly just an offbeat reaction face) are more easily adopted by normies because they're more relatable/digestible. Wojak never got popular because the concept he represents is simply too alien to the average person. Most memes are not as fundamentally un-relatable as wojak, though, so irony is useful to keep things away from normies. Regular irony isn't hard to grasp, though, and it's almost inherently humorous so that's not far enough to keep the memes "fresh." You have to go further. Post irony is intentionally obscure, but it's prone to "corruption" if normies can overwhelm the original purpose of the memes with sheer numbers. In other words, there's a tug-of-war between the post-ironic memers and the ones who don't get it and are just being regular-ironic. With meta-ironic memes there's no chance of confusion, and they can be genuinely hard to grasp. This is why Holla Forums uses post-irony.

The reason post-ironic memes are so effective with something offputting like Nazism or MLP is because by being offputting the memes keep away most normies and give the post-ironic side space to grow. This works even if the meme is initially just regular ironic because it allows for post ironic entryists to subvert it. The ironic distance allows people to get more comfortable with the ideas (the same way that humor can be used to critique without upsetting people). Ironic memers don't have an agenda except to socialize and have fun, but the post-ironic memers have an agenda and will push a high volume of post-ironic memes and push the boundaries on what's acceptable. It starts with "NIGGERS LOL" and gradually moves through "Nigga stole ma bike XD" to "Gents, what shall we do about the negro problem?" until finally you get "We must secure a nation for our people and a future for white children." With meta-irony, you have (probably) zero chance of this kind of entryism because the whole point of the meme is to jerk you out of normal communication and make you have to think about how you're supposed to parse the meme.

The moral of the story is that irony (simple parodic humor) can be (and in the case of reactinary politics - has been) weaponized. Once this happens it's no longer useful as a tool to disarm or fight these ideas. It instead becomes a trap that can be used by actors with an agenda to have the opposite effect of recruitment through ironic distance. This can be good or bad, as we see something similar happening with commie memes. But it's something we absolutely must understand and hopefully communicate to others.

ok well can someone give some more examples of meta irony? I now understand irony(cloaking facetiousness with sincerity) and post irony (cloaking sincerity with facetiousness), but explain meta irony some more i still dont understand

From what I understand he's being too obviously ironic, he changed the structure (scare quotes and smiley) so much from what the norm is now that it's too obvious to be true, so he actually hates jews. he's using the irony ironically.


he's taking the irony too far? he doesn't really care about the meaning, if he hates or doesn't hate jews, he's just interested in exploring his joke for the sake of it

Am I close?

look at and for examples.
Meta irony is about messing with the way communication works. Look at the two axes on this pic in particular. Irony and meta irony subvert the idea. Irony uses the idea but in a way that's not meant to be taken seriously. Meta irony uses the idea but in a way that's not meant to be intuitive according to the way it's normally conveyed.

What's different about meta irony is that it's subverting the structure, i.e. the way that information is being conveyed. For example, weirdness and noise can be a component of meta irony because they make the viewer question the purpose. Memes are usually intended to be efficient (the advice dog/animals format is this par excellence), so the internal logic is that anything added should have a purpose. Bizarro additions like visual noise or distortions task the observer with figuring out what's going on because that internal logic is broken. The meme becomes a puzzle.

In order to better understand meta irony compare post irony. Both meta irony and post irony subvert the format or the structure of the meme. In a nutshell, instead of using irony to subvert an idea, post irony is subverting irony to advance an idea under the guise of faux irony. This is an "encoded" message that is not meant to be understood by everyone, and it's a fundamentally different approach from irony. That's the structural subversion. Meta irony also subverts the structure, but unlike post irony the point is not to advance the idea at the core (the vertical axis on this picture). Meta irony takes the concept of irony even further, and instead of simply subverting the idea presented it subverts the presentation as well. Meta irony is not meant to be understood intuitively.

When people engage in memes, a process of communication forms. A language forms if you will. Communication through memes quickly becomes internalized as an unconscious skill or habit. Meta ironic memes are about changing the grammar so that the meme can't be easily "read". "Reading" memes becomes intuitive the way reading words does. But meta ironic memes are meant to disrupt this cycle. And it's not enough to just be totally surreal. It has to be recognizable as a meme, but differ enough from the established formula that your ability to process the "language" isn't good enough to make sense of it, because strictly speaking it's breaking the rules of the language as it exists.

Meta ironic memes are very dialectical. Irony in general is in a dialectic between familiarity and subversion of the familiar (over time the subversion becomes familiar and must then be subverted). Because meta irony is subverting both content and form, it's more dialectical than the others. Subversion of content means a conflict where the ideas within the meme pool are forced to change. Subversion of form means a conflict where the formats within the meme pool are forced to change. On top of this, because meta ironic memes are about being confusing (and because they are strictly incorrect grammatically, also actual nonsense), they "heighten the contradictions" between the people communicating via memes. The person who makes the meme provides the initial (absurd) version. The people who see it provide their own interpretations of it. Out of this process new formats and content will emerge. Meta irony presents the audience with something familiar but also absurd and asks you (collectively) to make it make sense.

apotheism.org/index.php/2017/01/26/memes-do-not-exist-memetics-as-anthropotechnics-and-the-zero-entendre/
This is a nice article discussing the topic

Nah, I just exaggerated the irony to make it more obvious that the presentation is supposed to be read as ironic. That part isn't necessary, but the rest is accurate. Exaggerating irony pushes that exampled toward meta irony because it's suspicious.

The point is to make you ask these questions and try to resolve the meaning. You're supposed to question what you're reading. See
In a nutshell it's supposed to make you question the way you read and understand the memes. You're supposed to think about how you interpret memes and what the author may have meant.

user, have you ever written or devised any meme theory?

we could make a political compass out of this

I can relate with the wojak memes very easily. I can't understand the doge memes (none of the lot, not even the pre ironic one), I can't imagine why they would be funny
P.S. I was never comfortable on the normie internet and when I first discovered the chans the feeling was of belonging, "this is my people"

Geniune:
"We must ensure the existance of white children"

Ironic:
"We must ensure the existance of jewish children"

Post-ironic:
"We must ensure the existance of white traps"

Meta ironic would be:
"We must ensure the existance of white ponies"

wojak is doge

so if i understand, meta-irony is a parody of meme FORMATS, rather than the content? A parody of the medium itself?

for example, if i made a meme with somebody holding up a book that said "google this book", would that be a meta-irony cockshott/bookchin meme?

yes, you get rid of the nouns and fill it with the most ridicolous shit you can think of

"We must ensure the existance of ____"

You can grab any sort of opinion and switch the key-words around and have it attract (You)s cause people actually respond to structure not to content


}youtube.com/watch?v=ZJmEMeY6KVs

Does this shit count? It's based on observation, not like I read this anywhere. There isn't a meme instruction manual.


That's why you get wojak and not doge. Doge and the derivative memes appeal to normies because (1) cute animals give fuzzy feelings (2) having a little personality makes it cuter (3) pidgin english makes it even cuter. There's nothing too complicated there. It's just a lot of cuteness. The doge meme has morphed into "boye" memes and such.


This is a good succinct set of examples.


Meta irony is a parody of both but the content is secondary to the format.


If you mean that the book say "google this book" on the cover then yes, probably. If the guy was Bookchin then it would be post-irony because most people would recognize him here and understand the message even though on the surface it looks like a parody. Nazbol Gang are (poor) meta ironic memes. They're doing it presumably because Nazbol is shit and generally hated and they're trying to be weird and incomprehensible to get people to think they're cool and different and maybe come up with something worth caring about to tie to the brand. It's the same kind of autism as hiring models to dress Nazbol.

doge is explicit wojak, wojak is esoteric doge, wojak is the newfag's unwareness of doge

is this meme meta ironic?

why do they say the left can't meme?

No, that's a straight non-subversive one. Uncreative copying of a meta-ironic aesthetic without addressing or utilizing the underlying complexity reverts you back to the starting point.

post best Holla Forums memes

No. Nothing about it throws you off. It's a very straightforward meme. If anything, this shows that the "slap a bunch of filters on it" aesthetic has lost its effectiveness as a confusing element and now just signals "I'm trying to look like I'm doing something weird and cool."

we can't tbh. Too small a userbase, you need way more people to get to really dank culture on like 700 levels of irony

Well I agree its kindof lazy, but idk if anyone unironically wants cybernetic posadism, id say its at least 1 layer of irony

TBH i'm not sure I can tell the difference between metairony and just complete nonsense where the only joke is that its an injoke that no one else gets. I guess the only rule is that is has to be a reference to something that came earlier so that people 'kindof' get it?

fucking hell what the fuck is this shit

this is why the alt-left is crap

Indeed. Don't these cucks know that it's magic and we're wizards?

I mean like your own ideas around memes, I know one of my friends did and he was gonna make a video about it, plus that apotheism site had stuff

it isn't succinct nor funny, you make walls of text that only appeal to you

you don't even exploit countersignaling

your memes look like a Holla Forums troll of what your memes would look like

also you don't make fun of yourself

Epic dubs my shadilay Holla Forumsrother

see this shit? completely transparent

Kek is with you, he has done it again! Kekistan will win.
SHADILAY

once again

...

Funny poster not so funny when his board is mocked.

you didn't really mock me, you just resentfuly attacked me when i made no claims that would lead to your posting

boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/138453296
one post every 30secs

Why does it matter, they're all the same, in the end they will all meet with the dame fate, death.

I don't get it

*same

try to interpet the face expression of the pic in relationship with the post

this thread:

Alt-left trying to figure out how to meme part 2398429

plz help

Yes, I sure love stupidposting, it's the future.

[image of ebin vapor wave album cover]

she's sad, disgusted with something that happened to her.
it doesn't look sincere. further info in the picture imply in broken english someone forced her to cut her own hair to a nerdy look and that's why she has that feel.

the post is about language, specifically the english language basicness

the only relationship I can find is: the author feels like that about the english language, like someone is playing with it and weakening it and disgusted by it.

So basically post-irony is another word for Poe's Law?

;)

Is this itself part of the art form and the meme value in the sense that the regression towards a lack of irony and satire is being itself mocked? How can we tell whether these people are indeed playing 19,201-planar autistic screeching decathlons or not? Do we need a razor here?

he posted a second image. the girl doesn't look sincere either. he's complaining about the lack of tools in the english language to express thoughts, and the theory that human beings are as limited as the languages they speak

do you think his point is that modern day english is not sincere? it's a fake language?

What this author calls "post ironic" would be labeled meta ironic according to this scheme and what he calls "new sincerity" would be post ironic. Other than that, it's an interesting read. I think it's important to point out that there's more than one way to do second-order ironic memes (meta ironic or post ironic). The example of /s4s/ he gives is one way to do meta ironic memes, which I'd contrast with Nazbol gang's memes here. /s4s/ as he describes it is basically Calvinball - unrestrained nonsense for the sake of fun. Nazbol memes are overproduced memes with obscure references that are meant to give the impression of more sophistication than there really is. Both are meta ironic because they are not structured to send a coherent message.


If it's not yet it will be.
You can't tell for sure. I vaguely felt this way before, but this article puts it pretty well. I think the solution is to create memes that transcend irony. The example given is one way to do that. See my reply above though because he uses the terms differently.
The thing about a razor is that if one became formalized the people who seek to evade it could just make memes that pass the razor.

pics signals mocking to the unaware, and facetiousness and trollthread to non-autistic posters to come in and help fuel the fire

fnords to trigger emotional reactions

implicit fnords to trigger nationalistic anglos

fnords to trigger anti-elitist reactions

Its a strategical flamewar bomb, you fail at memes cause you hide in your hole so you only end up arguing against your own side and getting increasingly esoteric, fluent ironic basic-bitch shill-posting is what makes Holla Forums both rhetorically and meme capable against normies. In this case its just dumb-posting, but it can also be used politically by having 90% of the threads disagree with the userbase and using words that will generate emotional reactions, by this you force them to come up with butt-closing arguments (which makes them develop their arguments against common opositional narratives, this generates increasingly on-spot funny memes and one-liners as the strategical flamewar bombs become stale), and also make them become aware of the weak sides of their ideas, which generates more thinking and research on how close these ideological holes. By keeping this going on you make them actively think for ways to convince "this fucking retard normie", this generates not only rhetorical dexterity in the group, but also makes them generate funny and quick macro-image responses and "redpilling infographics" that they can later use in the outer world.

Also people who get really bothered by the thread making fun of them read all responses, meaning they get exposed to the boards arguments becuase almost the entire population is on that side and the ones posting the opposite are either exposing real holes that need closure or just retard-posting to get anons to learn to quickly BTFO the ideas the retard-post endorses.

This is how Holla Forums works and why their memes have more reach than yours, yours just indulge in the inner-workings of your own ideology, while theirs are direct responses to caricatures of the enemy.

...

lol

that's kind of amazing to be honest

Holla Forums most cancerous and effective tactic remains the "inglobation" of memes imho. I remember the green pill meme as not only one of the strongest /x/ memes (back when I browsed the board) but actually as one of the strongest anti Holla Forums memes, there were dozen of funny comics and nobody really gave a shit it was a circlejerk (a lot of greenpill comics just treated Holla Forums as losers and focused on the dynamic between green pill and its evil counterpart, purple pill if I remember correctly),the subtlety was in both exposing and preserving the absurdity of the stuff discussed on the board. But as a lot of people began to come to 4chan from facebook (I have a strong belief in this, shitty "politics" pages like polandball and other reactionary pages making dumbed down memes are imho the primary and most important contributors to this massive influx) "iron pill" memes began to appear and they were obviously meant to cater to the very same people made fun of in the "red pill" profile of the comic. It didn't mean anything how pathetic and unfunny it was, iron pill being an aryan nationalist muscular chad was of course the mental projection of Holla Forumsyps being ass mad about the "red pill" profile, but so much of them began invading the board and reinforcing the idea that there was nothing wrong the neme actually got spoiled and faded away.

Pic for reference. It was indigo pill not purple. The iron pill is also obviously post ironic, it uses the language of the meme but it is completely straightforward.

i am in fact a gigantic faggot doomed for suicide, thanks for reminding me.

Wait. You are saying that people don't really like spiderland and loveless??

Speaking of anti-Holla Forums memes, remember how they kept being made fun of with interracial cuckold porn?
Yeah.

Allow me to start with this timeless classic.

:^)
Yeah, how stupid those mockers they radicalized them into anti irrelevant shiting

Post-irony is when pre-irony and irony are reconciled. Instead of outright violating established conventions, the narrative works with the structure in an internally consistent manner. It varies in meaning depending on whether the observer is familiar with the implied irony or not, and simultaneously conveys twos layers of meaning. Unlike in the case of irony, it is not irony (i.e. meaning the opposite of what is being said) that is missed when the viewer lacks familiarity with the tropes involved. What you see is some of what you get – but not all. Numerous factors such as the history and associated nuance related to the irony’s presentation can be taken into account to add nuance. The locus of humor in post-irony is what sets it apart from the less ironic: the absence of ironic subversion. The viewer requires a broad knowledge of the pre-required lexicon, especially regarding prior established ironic notions, in order to fully appreciate the post-irony. A simple rule of thumb for the identification of post-irony is whether the humor is in what is being left undone or unsaid; this is what advances post-irony, thrusts it forwards, and makes it so resistant to casualization, yet itself generates the basis upon which identification with modes of post-irony may become generalized. It's profoundly Lacanian.

This thread is far more informative than that article. It repeats the Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will inevitably be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe they are in good company argument over and over

This is why leftist memes are winning now while "epic kekistani shadilay brothers ! ! ! TRIGGER the leftists with our FROG VIDEOS" memes are dead. The left is in it for the long term but the right can't stand it when they don't get their instant gratification. There is nothing behind the right wing memes and so the longer the war drags on the more they get exposed as imbeciles. We have the edge unless they shut down the internets.

ring wing memes like the milk and fidget spinners and shit tbh seem like they were made for 12 year olds

the only way they can claim to be playing the ~long game~ now is if their target is 12 yearolds who they want to groom into becoming NutSac by 2030 using pewdiepie memes and the online equivalent of carving swastikas into school desks.

This is just genius. Weaponized autism meets proper education instead of pixelated infographics

Post-irony is when you express a sincere belief in an exaggerated way.

For example:
Sincere belief: I don't agree with leftist.
Post-irony: We need a dictator to throw leftists out of helicopters.

Of course another use for this is that whenever you say something extreme or stupid and people call you out for it you can fall back to "lol I'm just being ironic can't you take a joke?" So this allows retards to present themselves as actually clever. Pic related.

what memes? the left winning? I must have missed that

have you been on Holla Forums lately? They're having a meltdown because they've run out of tricks. Their memes don't work any more

I don't know what you're talking about. All I know is that it takes me a few minutes of browsing in both places to find better new OC down there than here

The Holla Forumsyps' stated end was to undermine their opponents' rhetoric using memes. They met this end up to Trump. Look at the big picture instead of thinking at the level of subreddits.

What you're describing is simply an escalation, with no ironic component present or necessary.

For an actual post-irony see the attached comics. Both have a default ironic interpretation (a parody of "I drew my opponents silly, so I win" cartoons and a humorous juxtaposition of a "profound" quotation and Holla Forums's inherent idiocy, respectively). But both can be read literally, and defuse obvious immediate criticisms of the literal reading with the intermediate step at irony. (What makes them so potent is that both are basically correct. Pedo apologists are usually attacked and dismissed outright. "Ideas are bulletproof" no matter what kind of ideas they are.)

i have YEARS without seeing the epic fail guy…

was that pic of shake it up made in Holla Forums right? holy shit hahahahah

so that retarded pedophile meme from Holla Forums made me remember Victorious and I did this test.
My result is not surprising, I have always been a popular guy.

Triple agents?
Samantha Bee?

Marquis de Sade wrote something about eating shit. I wonder if it was not an acting out of the real trauma of being repeatedly forced to eat distasteful food at threat of punishment and denied even the right to complain while complying. Either that or just schizophrenia.

But who can ignore someone willingly eating shit?

Dadaism in particular is stereotyped as *holds up spork* omg so random, but in reality it was an outburst of corrosive nihilism born in reaction to the total collapse of civilisation that was WWI.

that V for vendetta meme really makes me think Holla Forums is a bunch of 12 year olds tbh, the same way they say 'le redpill' while the matrix is a super left wing movie. Have they ever even 'V for Vendetta'? its literally one of the most explicit anti fascist movies ever made, and based on material made by an anarchist writer. If either movie came out today, they would both be called SJW by Holla Forums

damn those nazi propaganda documentaries Holla Forums made are hilarious!

that v for vendetta meme predates Holla Forums by almost a decade

that meme is very old. it used to say Holla Forums instead of Holla Forums. because there were some racists in Holla Forums too back in the day but it was jokeingly racist not serious like (/new/ /news/ Holla Forums)

source: I was a channer in the 2008s and I know it's history in the 2003-2012 to a T because I read.

The board therapist has answered, game over.

go back to /bmw/ with this horseshit. You don't understand memetics.

because you goys haven't invested enough time into it. Not to mention you goys at large haven't read the classics. Aristotle is very important. Not to mention the material conditions and so - maybe if you addressed those your memes might have more reach than outside of a limited circle jerk.

niqqa wtf why are commies so bad at information systems? And by extension biology - wtf man :'(

Dark age comes after Iron age assuming continuity between titles.

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You left out an important new category: un-ironic. Where you acknowledge the existence of the ironic critique, which might be widespread or dominant, and even might well accept that it is a valid critique, but embrace the necessity of sincerity nonetheless. It is sincerity in the wake of irony, distinct from post irony in that it does not itself contain irony, and from meta-irony in that it does not contain a critique, but rather an assertion in the face of critique.

Post-irony is a joke.
You all have literal Asperger's Syndrome.

Hey lefty pol, its me PICKLE RICKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

How the fuck is that "neo Lamarckian"

Lysenkoism is not Lamarckism.
Blame Stalin for purging scientists who disagreed with Lysenko.


Darwinism is not Mendelism.

Soft inheritance is only a small part of Lamarckism and it's not even the most important part of it. Darwin himself believed in the inheritance of acquired characteristics. It's just what people believed back then. Natural selection was only properly established as orthodox after the modern synthesis. This is a matter of genetics rather than evolutionary theory. There's no reason that cultural evolution couldn't be Neo-Lamarckian.

Only if you blame Hitler for sinking Germany.
Arithmetic isn't mathematics.

I hope so, it would explain why I don't have any friends

Is there a clearer version of the meta-ironic example, without the text written over it?

You mean you wouldn't blame Hitler for promoting Nazi eugenics?

If you want to argue about definitions, don't start with a Wikipedia article.

Even if we file Lysenkoism under Lamarckism, denouncing all of Lamarck because of it is like denouncing all of Marx because of a single Marxist school of thought that turned out to be wrong.

Lamarck has long been debunked, pure and simple. There is no evidence that behaviors yield genes, epigenetics notwithstanding.

We're talking about culture, not genes. Nobody in the thread said memes behave just like genes.

Lamarck is about genes, not culture.

Nothing new.

What the fuck are you talking about? Lamarck died 37 years before genetics was invented. No wonder Holla Forumsyps always gloat about how shit the left is at biology.

Nice bait, not taking it.

what a surprise

Awesome thread, good job!

I guess the pirate flag makes you a libertarian.

That's amazing, his theories died with him!? Isn't Neo-Lamarckism the subject and not the man? God are you stupid.

On a slightly different topic, what do you call humor thats done with the point of being ridiculous and the comedy is derived from how outrageous it is (i.e. a character or comedian in a show/standup who spouts stuff off the cuff that everyone knows is wrong, a Nazi entering a dog show, a random older milkman with racist views from the 20s in a time when milkmen don't exist, etc.)?

surreal humor or absurdist humor


the subject is memetics which is an application of evolutionary theory to culture


whats the difference between genuine and un-ironic

Memetics. Pseudoscience.

Damn Holla Forums, Holla Forums here, you sure are retarded, your memes are pathetic and unfunny and clearly you have no idea what you're doing.

Listen you leftycucks, I will help you this time, beating you to a pulp on memetic warfare is no fun if you're not gonna put up much of a fight, read pdf related and maybe you'll wise up a little ok? See ya 👌😘

I'm not clicking that shit.

clickbait in pdf form

Show me a funny meme.

Please stop defiling Saber with that uniform.

Relevant to this thread,
on-memetics.blogspot.com/2013/11/on-lamarckism-in-cultural-evolution.html

Do you know Pepe the frog? He's a green frog and hilarious XDD

Protip: Ask this every time and you never get a response

Hipster irony.

You might as well ask what the difference is between coffee and coffee without cream.

I'd prefer coffee without milk.

Why is plain Lamarckism not sufficient again? Cultural change does not require the idea of "memes" in the Dawkinsian sense. Internet memes are not Dawkin's "memes." So, how memetics applies just because some old anons made an ironic homage in categorizing insipid jokes is beyond me. Unless of course, you are saying that internet memes really are the atoms of culture. But then you have a problem, summarized in the link below.

on-memetics.blogspot.com/2012/01/stephen-j-gould.html

Basically, Stephen J. Gould takes a giant dump down Daniel Dennett's throat and denies algorithmic effectiveness in cultural change because of a lack of "substrate neutrality." So Lamarck is on the table for culture, but memes are not.

Is this an accurate description of meme communities?

Dawkins disagrees
wired.co.uk/article/richard-dawkins-memes

Because we don't believe in vitaism. Gould means neo-Lamarckism, in the same way he means neo-Darwinian when he says "Darwinian".

Prove it.

Does he?

Culture is alive, alive-alive like people?

Neo-Lamarckism is the inheritance of acquired traits. How does heredity apply to cultural artifacts? They are copied, they do not grow without our interference.

That isn't what irony is you fucking burger.

Neither of those thing are ironic. Let me give you an example of irony: a diabetic gets hit by a truck carrying insulin shots.

Read instead of searching for keywords that you think will support your argument

So like genes and memes then?

Don't you get it, they grow in the void!

I always thought post irony was a bunch of mouthbreathers like Werid twitter, Chapo, South Park realized they could just repeat a reactionary view in a FANNY VOICE, and get a following.
Basically riding the coat tails of talented 90s comedians that used irony like Jim Carey.

Then the horse is wrong, Early quantum physicists such as Einstein and Schrödinger were wrong about the consequences of their own theories, too.

Internet memes do not self replicate. They spread only by our choices. Maybe you should examine the argument instead of looking for influential people that disagree with it à la Sokal.

You best be joking nigga!

Does Holla Forums seriously believe in meme Magic?

They're cucks if they do, considering how hard it backfired on them.

How I see it they got what they wanted out of that Faustian bargain, they helped a frog God come here from the Outside (and who knows what else came along with it) and in exchange all they got was their meme president.

its for after you're done being ironic

Neither do genes. Just how do you think genes work? They need the rest of the organism to replicate.


The argument was about whether Dawkins thinks internet memes are Dawkinsian memes.

brainlet pls go

its no fun on Holla Forums, there isn't anyone to argue with except for the occasional jew and shill and they are so bad they don't even argue points
user is right Holla Forums come on and get stronger with your memes so we can have a good fight like vegita and goku

Doesn't detract from the main point that culture does not truly self-replicate. Goggle and Fuckbook may bring memes to our doorstep, but we still have to let them in. A virus is not stopped by choice at the point of infection.

You're taking that too literally. Gene copying is a biochemical process deterministic under physical law. This is what is meant by self-replicate. It does not require say, a copyist in order to increase its numbers in the world. Mutation, also deterministic under physical law, is the failure of the "intended" process. Though this can be deliberate, it can occur without our intervention.

Internet memes replicate by people choosing to reuse them. When they are change or are combined, this too is by choice. We don't need to choose to use our genes for them to work.


Is that what this thread is about?

Regardless, the truth of the matter is not dependent upon Dawkins. You are attacking a straw man.

That's some rebuttal. Your psychic powers fail you.

To do or meme something unironically is to do or meme something with complete sincerity which in most cases would be considered something ironic. It's different from post-irony where you pretend to be ironic even though you're completely sincere, or from being genuine where the subject matter itself also seems genuine. The main crux behind un-irony is the perception that it's not certain whether the subject in question is ironic or not, while the subject doesn't seem to be pretending to be ironic either. It's not too different from post-irony, but the main difference is the intention behind the message, and how it's delivered in a way which would normally be considered post-ironic. I don't know whether it deserves to be a separate category, but essentially it's something genuine, but you can't tell whether it's ironic or not.

Immaterial as to whether internet memes are actually Dawkins memes. What if Dawkins were to change his mind, like Stalin?

thephilosophersmeme.com/2017/03/09/post-irony-against-meta-irony/

hahaha

Still waiting, I assume you wouldn't say that without having bretty good evidence of it.

I have my theory. Your facts are not absolute.

What kind of irony is this?

This is how the right wins, they are better at corralling the idiots. They start this shit expecting them to come and when they come, they know precisely what to do with them. We don't. Idiots are useful at repeating the things they're told, they're fodder. I can guarantee you Trump does not believe in KEK. Well, maybe he does, but must he to retweet a few shitposts? The trick is in controlling which memes get spread. We must curate our jungle.

If that were true, losing a tooth would kill you. Gene replication within nature occurs in cells. Cells need glucose and other nutrients, but this need not come from a specific creature. This is why we can grow heart cells on spinach leaves.

Also,

Old meme.

irony is when someone is being critical of a paradigm but is living of it.
post-irony is when someone (who used to be critical) lives in that paradigm to the extremes and enjoys himslef, so that he doesent use arguments against that paradigm, but is outright making everyone sceptical about it with his behaviour/lifestyle.

that Sam Hyde guy and his MDE, more precisely World Peace, were exactly post-ironic. They took modern western society and made a spectacle of it to the point of absurd.

isn't that just ironic, wouldn't post-ironic be presenting things as they are with no satirical critique?

wow you are tragically uneducated.

mutation *is* evolution, mutation is what produced conscious beings and civilization. If it wasn't for mutation, life would be the same single cell dividing across the planet until earth could no longer support it.

To misunderstand this badly, you would have to know absolutely nothing about the topic you're preaching on.

gene copying is not "deterministic", I don't even think you know what that means. There would be no such thing as recessive traits if that were true.

Please don't ever talk about science again.

well no, as the one who is being post-ironic is ridiculing a paradigm isnt doing so trough satire or criticism, but trough bastardisation if you will.
take for example criticism of capitalism.
someone criticises it with arguments.
someone else criticises it by exaggarating its negative properties and pointing them out.
but the third man becomes a big corporate porky and enjoys himslef, and when people hate him and what he stands for, he wins both ways; he enjoys himslef and he gets the point across.
and if the people want to bring him down they have to bring down capitalism, but if they dont, he will be doing just fine.
i went to YT and went over one of his episodes from adult swim, and a good example is the one where hes reporting on bullying in school. or the sketch on that pimp guy that helps out a cripple.
he plays a scumbag that makes a jolly living out of being a scumbag.

the "post" in postironic implies that the person has moved past using irony to acheive an argumental point, and has started to simply exploit it for personnal benefit, and if anyone calls him out on even that, he just sais hes making a point.

You're hilarious.

Selection is evolution. Mutation is one way to increase the gene pool it means nothing without selection. It's also responsible for cancer, that thing you're full of.


What is an autosome? What is the difference between mitosis and meiosis?

What is sexual reproduction? You know, that thing you're not having?

Your understanding of genetics appears limited to single cell organisms. Fitting, given your obsession with memes. But you know what, I am wrong. I shouldn't have denied your mommy overtime. She made you work to help support the family after your father walked out and thus you missed going to high school. Here, please accept this (you) as a tip.

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Nobody is coming to save you user. Time to save yourself…

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I don't think I take the self replication thing too literally since it would make no difference to my argument if you restrict my analogy to artificial selection. It matters what Dawkins thinks of memes because it's relevant to the rest of his theory which you endorse in part and contradict in another without justification.


Gould doesn't believe as Lamarck does that elemental forces spontaneously generate organisms. How am I supposed to prove this other than by saying he never said so if he was a secret alchemist?

Not the same user. He never denied selection can lead to evolution and one example of how evolution can happen without selection is mutation. You on the other hand claim that selection is evolution while also claiming that mutation means nothing without selection. But selection is just one way in which evolution can happen. So what did he say to get abused by you like that?

The entire discussion you've been shifting goalposts about what qualifies as a good analogy between nature and culture. You've also introduced random physics without justification and only confused the conversation. we're right to find you frustrating when you say pointless things like Gene copying is a biochemical process deterministic under physical law and bring up Mach's principle as if it's the only other example of wholism and somehow my argument fails as an extension. You sound like you learned all your genetics on Holla Forums because you're acting like an arrogant asshole who joined this board expecting to easily push around stereotypical liberals who think biology is all a social construct. Every time a new point is made you cherry pick from a source and then attempt to drop the topic when it's countered. You keep changing your flag like it's meant to do something. You've been posting childish one line comments like and then deleting them for unknown reasons. I can't see one reason not to think you're a troll.

Genuineness isn't aware of the ironic view.

For example:
Genuine - Loving the Sonic the Hedgehog games from about 1989 to 1999. You're unaware of the cavalcade of autism lurking beneath the surface, you just see an entertaining blue hedgehog.
Unironic - Loving the Sonic the Hedgehog games now. You're invariably aware of the autism associated with it, with the dire state of the franchise, with the cringeworthy nature of much of the recent material - but nonetheless you just happen to enjoy it.

If you aren't self aware enough to realize the autism is a bad thing I guess it's still genuine, of course, but even many autists are aware now and tip into the unironic.

Or in a simpler but not so accurate form:
Genuine = I like this. I think it's good.
Unironic = I like this. I know that it is bad.
(In the sonic case this doesn't entirely apply as it's almost universally agreed the Mega Drive/Genesis games were good, but taking the franchise as a whole it surely applies.)

Isn't that just new sincerity or post post modernism

This is a post-irony thread, so let's not forget some post-irony for comparison.