Fuck this. Why can`t the party just see that there is no any future in attempting to be pro-immigration?
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I reject the premise of the question. I am against the system that causes such a disparity in quality of life between here and there that they feel it necessary to move.
You give out pancakes?
Other parties tend to cook sausages and so forth, along side coffee. Our party has been going for pancakes since 2012.
I hope they are quorn substitute sausages and not pork, or you will upset the locals.
No they are not, thankfully.
This. Pro or anti immigration, it doesn't matter when americans keep fucking around in middle-east and western corporations exploiting people in the MENA region.
Even if some "pragmatic" douche wants to be anti-immigration just because he doesn't feel safe around all these brown people because of the attacks, there will still be millions more to come when climate gets so shit that you can't live in some of those regions anymore.
I equally hate those staunchly right-wing folks because they usually have shit attitude towards others in general and hold spooked, anti-intellectual views, and also hate the staunchly liberal folks who pin terrorist attacks on "patriarchy" and think that west needs to accommodate to spooked beliefs of these brown people to be "more tolerant". Fuck them both. We need to think more in terms of social status or class, and less about in terms of gender or somebody's ethnicity. Idpol is a fucking spook. Why can't people realize that the middle-easterners who become atheist couldn't give less of a fuck about spooks that muslims hold, and want to get by in the capitalist society just like a westerner does?
when you get questions on immigration, you answer with antiimperialism, it's really not that hard
it's common knowledge that the US is behind all that shit and that the EU is far deep into that shit as well, you just have to force it into their conciousness
just say saudi arabia and weapon deals and that will shut them right up
That's nice and all, and I agree in full, but… removing this disparity is going to be a work of decades. Even if all the third world managed a growth in development, in fixed capital and educational attainment etc., on the level of the Soviet Union under Stalin or contemporary China, it will still take something like half to a full century before Africa and South Asia catch up to the west. Until that time, the migrants will want to keep on coming here, and them coming here will continue to disrupt development in situ because of brain drain.
So what to do in the meantime? In the long run, we are all dead, it is not enough to content us with saying that under FALC, the disparities giving rise to immigration will vanish. What should be the policy with regards to the teeming masses right now? Should European countries just submit to "welcoming" something on the order of 2% of their total population yearly in single, young men, as happened at the height of the migrant crisis to Sweden and Germany?
You are simply dodging the question.
Anything to justify erasing the west ayy.
Still haven't justified the west being erased in it's entirety through immigration.
That's what you get for supporting liberal social values.
What's the matter with liberal social values? Maybe Holla Forums is more your speed if you are this spooked about liberal social values.
Tell us, fingolian, where do you think European leftists should stand on immigration? It's easy to say they can't be pro-immigration, but what stance should they then take? and why?
You really are an idiot if you used spooked as an argument for liberal social values.
All social values are spooks my friend. The only difference is that some are more "detrimental" to society, I.e. refugees being a burden on the economy and lowering public safety in form of terror attacks.
What's wrong with rejecting the idea that certain races, religions, sexual orientations or gender are surperior to others. You guys keep saying the right wing is just as bad as liberals because theyre both capitalists, but how can believing in white supremacy and patriarchy be as bad as someone that doesn't.
I'm not brining this up to obsucate the dominant role class plays.
Former Holla Forumsyp: the Post.
That's not too bad
What terrorist attack are you talking about? I'm finnish and pretty sure that this is a Holla Forums shitpost thread.
What strawman? Are you one of those "SEXUAL FREE MARKET IS REACTIONARY REE" types? What are you trying to argue?
Read the the fucking news, fag.
Police doesnt know his motive yet, why are you calling it a terrorist attack? Were the finnish schoolshootters terrorists too, or is it ok thing to do if you are born in the country?
it is, believe me
SJW liberals who like gardens are not your friends
uuhh… The stibbety stabb :DDDD:DD:D:D in Turku yesterday?
the police are treating it as a terror incident now. assailant was a 18yo Moroccan national, the MO matches that of London, pretty sure it was terror
Ah. Cuz fuck the environment right?
I guess we need to join the nato then :DDDDD that will stop terorism :DDDD
Liberal social policies like refugee quota enables freeloaders and increases risk of terrorist attacks.
Your strawman was literally "lol you must be an american republican who supports things I don't like and le pol xDDD"
That would be economic not social liberalism, though. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't help actual refugees from war-torn regions. I am only against economic migration.
You clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about. Are you some kind of an anglo by any chance? Or what is it that attracts you to the Sateenkaarilahtarit?
join war on terrorism to shoot terrorism to death :::DDDD:D:D:DDD:D:D:D
How is e.g. refugee quota a liberal economic policy when it is only justified through "muh morals"? The only ones who benefit from these refugees are capitalists who are funded by state welfare to provide housing and food for these parasites.
They are people, not parasites. Go be a racist somewhere else.
Stop posting to Holla Forums thread without sage
The refugee problem won't just go away because you ignore it, it requires a political solution. Those people need to go somewhere for the time being. Obviously taking in refugees without considering your country's ability to support them is retarded, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any kind of aid given.
newfriend, this thread was by finsocdem
he is autistic and the embodiment of all the worst aspects of social democracy but he is not Holla Forums
All immigration with exception of refugees(they should be granted temporary residence only) should be brought to end to protect our unions and not to increase the pool of workers that will only lead to slower growth of wages.
If you want to protect unions then just do that. Why put effort into keeping refugees out when you could be fighting for unions directly?
Call them what you will but they are a strain on the state budget. Also calling someone "racist" is not an argument.
Did you even read my post? I`m not against refugees, I think that we should just bring economic migration to end. We should take refugees in on humanitarian basis but only temporary like we did with the Vietnamese in 1970`s.
How don't I? They may mostly be liberals but at least they're making some kind of effort to help combat climate change, which is arguably the most serious problem threatening humanity's existence right now
Well as long as our economy gets more fucked up it means that our education, welfare, healthcare etc. suffers because of capitalist parties making reforms, all the while these capitalists advocate for more refugees.
The Soviet Bloc wasn't immigration friendly and rightly so. Who really stands to gain from such a thing?
Greens policies regarding environment are completely identical with leftist alliance at this point trough only Center party and Basic Finns are even somewhat opposed to these policies.
It also matches the Cville autist, yet somehow that wasn't terrorism
I have had enough of your shameless Holla Forums falseflagging. Go do some despooking on your racism then come back to Holla Forums. No regulars on Holla Forums here commonly support large loads of immigrants that the society is not ready to intergrate, but we certainly don't worry about "muh state budget" here either. Shit like fighting in the middle east is 100 times more expensive than any amount of money thrown at "immigrant welfare".
Sure it requires a solution, but I can't see how it is somehow our objective moral duty to take care of these refugees. Only thing I see from people supporting mass immigration and refugees is FEELS>>>>REALS
It's important that we stand for national self determination in addition to political and economic democracy, and national self determination means that the members of a nation may exclude those from joining who do not fit with the collective cultural values of said nation
in the meantime, it is also important to stand against imperialism, as attacking imperialism will 1. get rid of many of the problems that cause mass emigration in the first place and 2. make it easier for left wing movements to succeed in the third world
another thing that we must attack in the USA specifically is the Drug War, as it ties into the influx of Latin American immigrants (and the cartel violence that spills over into America)
It's not like people wanted to get in in the first place.
You have the means to and it's international law. Pretty simple, no? Feels are just a plus.
You are a racist, hence it is right to call you one.
But that is already the policy all across the EU right now. All the people coming in claim to be refugees - of course, most of them are not, but they all claim to be nonetheless. The issues faced today mostly concern: how to separate the two categories, what to do with the people concerned in the meantime, what to do about the logistical problems concerning movement of peoples, how to integrate newcomers, and what to do with the people who are denied a refugee status. As most countries of origin do not voluntarily take them back, what ends up happening is that economic migrants denied asylum are simply turned out into the street.
Beyond that the problem will soon become moot once we start to face climate refugees, who will in fact have no livable home countries to return to. The left should seriously think about humanitarian solutions to all these problems, up to and including special geographical transit zones, large scale detention centers, second rate citizenship, and setting up of infrastructure to accommodate all that. And taking police and/or military action against smuggling operations on a global basis.
The alternative is to leave it to the imbecilic "lol who cares let them die"-crew that is also present itt.
Seriously? The DDR had a policy of get the fuck out after 5 years. The only way you were getting in from outside the Warsaw Pact is if your government had a contract with the SED. And only for work or education. You were required to leave after a max of 5 years.
By your definition, this was literally the Third Reich
Go back to Reddit
That's because your country isn't socdem. Also Finland hasn't put a single penny into any war in the middle east, so why is it our moral duty to use our tax money regulated by the state to help refugees?
Its not, since there is plenty of legal immigration and mobile workforces that are stealing our jobs form national economy in form of Estonian construction workers and such.
All immigration especially work related should be brought to end by force and those denied refugees who will not be taken back should be just sent across the Russian border tbh.
That's just nasty.
That's like going after drug dealers on the streets. Smuggling is more of a problem because they actively bullshit people, so an educational campaign might help.
Though either way, these are all solution that don't address why people come, making them almost useless at best.
You had couple NATO operations in Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon. And you do no trade with imperialistic powers?
Sounds good. We can kick out the nazbols then.
This is the response of a child. Russia will not take them, for one. As concerns the question of Estonian workers, wew lad. Intra-European migration is the least of all our problems.
As to nasty etc., tough shit. The alternative will likely be having actual ethnic cleansers come to power. Any solution that doesn't involve the death of millions can be considered a victory already, even if it does not satisfy liberal "muh human rights" tastes.
Sure you're right, but should the people people, and especially the proles, pay the toll for something they never directly decided for? As I mentioned earlier, strain on the economy will only result in welfare reforms.
DDR didn't participate in western imperialist wars, it would make no sense for them to alleviate the pains caused by imperialists.
I'm not a finn, and using the concept of "moral duty" as a negative description is simply not done in Holla Forums. You don't agree that you should help other human beings, when it's within our means to do so?
I'm an Estonian, and these estonians going to Finland for construction work are not our best and brightest, and in real life I look down on fellow countrymen leaving Estonia forever just for higher-paying jobs (since it also means some high-skilled workforce leaving us and causing brain-drain), but with EU's free job market, that's what you get. I bet my ass that all those finnish construction workers are fine with this and go to Sweden for construction work instead.
It's not about catching up to the West though, it's about removing reason that cause people to leave everything behind like climate change, war or extreme exploitation. I know tons of people in shitty second world and third world countries who'd like to live in the West but aren't eager enough to leave because shit isn't too bad in their country.
Until they (and mostly Americans) stop creating conditions forcing people to migrate in the first place, obviously.
That's bullshit. Education system in Europe alone will prevent that.
That's a bit simplistic. The majority voted for pro NATO parties and definitely did profit from dealings with imperialists. Obviously the proles aren't the main winners but standing against refugees won't give you a tax reform or improve welfare. Going after the even bigger victims is just silly when porkie was always there.
There is no really point in freedom of movement for workers without adequate labor protections. EU has lot to improve.
Isn't that up to every country? Is there an EU law that stops you introducing a minimum wage?
You're arguing for tainted blood by reason of a people's overlords exploiting someone else. You're no better than fascists that use MUH FEELZ
EU should seek to centralize its laws anyhow if we are ever to federate on any realistic level. Additionally I think that common EU labor laws would help to create inter-European labor movement and unions.
what rosa-killer said
Also propping up the most neoliberal government, giving it a 'progressive' veneer
And what are the policies that most stick out? Anti-nuclear and anti G.MO policies, the two most anti-scientific positions green politics takes.
Cville autist didn't knife people at random, like the 3 lads in London or the Turku knifer.
I agree, and it seems pretty obvious move for it to work right but if they attempt to do that, there will be tons of bitching about evil, megalomaniac EU bureaucrats, who want to take away our freedums.
EU has done some good things in my country. For example I like how they fund the creation of public space, building infrastructure and student exchange programs (one of which I participated in). Without EU we would be on-par with some backwards, crime-ridden shithole like Belarus or Moldova by now.
Are you calling me a fascist because I don't agree with this retarded tankie shit about "lol ameriKKKans fucked it up, let them sort out all these brown people while we sit in our armchairs and read theory together like a bunch of fags while all those brown people at the gates starve"? Sure, call me whatever you want, if that makes you sleep better at night. Then proceed to go back to your LARP discord and tell them "how you bravely showed to this evil rosakiller on muh elite cool kids club".
So you rather advocate for Holla Forums to be a torture chamber? People have differing opinions, that's something you'll have to accept. I'm only basing mine off the concrete consequences of the refugee crisis, which I deem to be detrimental.
Yes. We should also work out an taxation system for the EU and start getting rid of council of Europe, along centralizing the power to parliament of Europe.
I agree that EU has done lot of good but immediate concern regarding the EU should be creation of new centralized labor laws and even perhaps an proportional minimum wage. Banning of zero hour contracts would also be the way to go.
You're not thinking this through. Should the workers of Britain be held to account for something that they did not support or were even responsible for?
All you are doing is setting up fascists to be right. IT'S DA JOOZ. IT'S DA NIGRAZ.
My argument against mass immigration is the same as Žižek's.
Reasonable immigration is fine. But this is nowhere near reasonable.
That is the only thing I expect everyone here to agree on - that we should all strive for a more equal world. If you choose to disagree on that, it begins to enter nazbol/str.asserist territory. I don't care if you disagree on the rest. What I am actually saying though is that within SOME means, we should absolutely help immigrants. But I understand you think we shouldn't even do that little?
I agree, that would be a worthwhile attempt. Muke quoted somebody once that shitty material conditions do not start revolutions, but failed reformist attempts do.
My argument also aligns with Žižek, and I agree with you. It just seemed to me that some people in this thread wanted to Holla Forums falseflag and disguise their racism as some edgy USSR-style closed immigration policy.
Historically most revolutions have started form ongoing wars and civil conflicts trough and if we consider the fact that there have been fewer wars than ever before in history there wont be any big revolutions coming up.
Then what are we disagreeing on? I'm confused.
What pol actually wants is to be right. They want to be ass-blasted daily and for it to pay off. They'll make a semi-reasonable argument about immigration and then scream niggers and jews
They are being played like socdems are being played. The only people this can conceivably benefit are those people in gated communities far away from the orgy of violence and exploitation.
Some refugees yes. Some immigrants yes. But the EU is completely unreasonable.
Yes, but one country cannot change the world system and people do want to come to the West.
By refusing the question, you're refusing to deal with the problem.
I disagree with this. Many revolutions came about because of wars, but they didn't come about because, or necessarily by, the wars, but rather because of the societal instability that the wars caused.
Consider that very rarely, if ever, did a war with the country was winning lead to a revolution. Invariably, people revolted because resources had been exhausted and starvation and poverty had set in. The inability to live one's life day-to-day, and not war as such, is the cause of revolution and those conditions are fast approaching again.
God bless you marketsoc
We don't disagree I believe, I thought for a second somebody else was using the ancom flag.
Daily reminder that the Holocaust was perpetrated by the most cultured and educated people in Europe, the Germans. As even liberals know this well, I suspect you are a sophisticated troll.
They were RELATIVELY educated and cultured. The average person back in the day would make some alt-right cuck look moderate.
Also bit random but apparently Siberia got a huge immigration problem too. theguardian.com
r/socialism as fuck dude
Because socdems aren't socialist. Pro-immigration is essentially a pro-capitalist stance. An infinitely growing economy ridden with debt will need a continuous influx of new labor, and new consumers that can take on more debt.
That's not to say anti-immigration parties are necessarily anti-capitalist either. They just wish to keep exploiting people outside the border. Which tends to be a pretty palatable stance.
Those regions can't catch up to their exploiters, because that's the nature of the system. South Asia, Africa and parts of East Asia and Latin America are the exploited regions. The wealth flows from those places to western economies.
wow what a surprise
It's not like they have to catch up. Would you leave your old life and friends and family behind to start a new life in a new country where 10% of people hate you to make 10-25% more for the same job? Probably not. Make it 200% (and in case of EU - third world it's usually way more) and it's only logical to do so.
As pathetic as it is enlightening.
Bunch of post doesn't indicate the whole board.
Isn't she the one who cucked you with a conservative?
The hivemind mentality has rotted your mind.