Gnome Chomsky: Antifa is a Major Gift to the Right

antifa should be seen as completely worthless to any serious leftist. it's as if what remains of the left has completely forgotten that this form of organization was proved to be basically impotent in the wake of '68. all antifa will ever be able to do is show up at things like charlottesville and agitate reactionaries, which is not in and of itself a bad thing, but clearly, more is needed.

only a party which explicitly identifies as communist, in this climate, is capable of 1. making it clear that they have a positive political platform which is opposed to the prevailing ideology, something today's reactionaries have managed to do (antifa is again, totally worthless here. based on their name alone, it's obvious that the logical fulfillment of antifa political action can only result in maintaining the existing order, just with less fascists (which is doubly ineffectual, since we all know that fascism is always perpetuated by the liberal hegemony)), and 2. only a politically active, explicitly communist, group is capable of creating the necessary political Terror for any serious leftist movement.

of course, this isn't happening (in the US at least) any time soon, however this should not prevent us from being critical of groups which claim to be leftist while demonstrating no real resistance to liberal ideology itself.

The aut-right just took a massive PR hit while any antifa hoogliganism will be considered justified after their opponets came out as nazis. More often than not antifa is impotent larping but it is not a gift to reactionaries or an obstacle to a communist movement.

Its the new fag redditors that still listen to Chomsky uncritically. This place also used to be more pro antifa

What fucking alternative is there? You can't beat fascists with arguments, because they don't fucking care about arguments. They just want to bash heads and exterminate Jews and that level of primitive, mindless brutality can only be met with physical force.

I respect Chomsky's work, but his devotion to classical liberalism is a major failing of his opinions on praxis.

Dedicated to you, Gnoam.

Additionally:

Only one thing could have stopped our movement - if our adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement. - Adolf Hitler

Oh please. We have cheered them on from time to time but they have made more mistakes and done more harm than good.

I also have to throw my anecdotal evidence in here and say that when I have been part of anti facist counter demonstrations, the normies of the public just walking by have spat on the nazis and heckled them, several times not people who came to the protest, just random people, and not always young people either. The last one I was at this old lady started tearing right into them, called them disgusting, said they were a disgrace, said grandfather died in the war, spat at them, cops let it happen even though spitting is classed as assault here. It was pretty glorious. Anyway point is I think you underestimate how much normal people give a shit about the rights of Nazis

fascist spotted

spotted the Holla Forums false flagger

*overestimate that should say

antifa is generally stupid
however opposing nazis is always good

Call me an idealist but I dont like the idea that any group of people would have less rights in sockety than all the others. Because if you really think about it, thats exactly what the nazis did.

your political "spectrum" is autistic.

Damn….

That image gave me AIDS.

Nice autism chart, wanna check out mine?

I agree.

How many of you have read Trotsk's Fascism: What It Is and How to Fight It?

marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm

It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

Yet underneath all this mess there does lie a kind of buried meaning. To begin with, it is clear that there are very great differences, some of them easy to point out and not easy to explain away, between the régimes called Fascist and those called democratic. Secondly, if ‘Fascist’ means ‘in sympathy with Hitler’, some of the accusations I have listed above are obviously very much more justified than others. Thirdly, even the people who recklessly fling the word ‘Fascist’ in every direction attach at any rate an emotional significance to it. By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come.

But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one — not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make. All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword.

this is just straight up bizzare.. Just.. Monarchism is somehow inbetween socialism and communism and anarchism is the most far right ideology here. What the hell are you talking about

Chomsky has a point, but not for the reason he thinks.

Antifa in principle is fine, it just needs better organisation and pick better fights. For instance: Redneck Revolt protecting synagogues and black churches = good praxis.
Scrap fights with pasty white losers coming for Milo= bad praxis.
The main tactic against modern nazi fucks should be organised defense, whilst propagandising properly.

Honestly, american radicals need to give greece or germany a visit to see how it's done properly. Especially Greece, the anarchists have all but offical control of entire city blocks where the police doesn't dare come. Now that's something you can learn from.

The difference between Hitler and Lenin is that Lenin had a revolutionary program that was based specifically around emancipating the international working class, any violence on his part was toward that goal. Hitlers program wanted to entrench the ruling class and those exploit the working class, in order to create a strong German Empire, his violence was in order to bring this empire into being.

So, it all comes down to which of these ideologies you ascribe to, and the violence is a given for either side. The fact is, Nazism was an economic and social failure, extremely unstable. This is not surprising for an economy built entirely on the back of lending imaginary money to arms companies.

The soviet economy on the other hand, was structured in order to industrialise and provide for the working class, literacy rates skyrocketed, it shrugged off global economic slumps, it lasted a long time… it collapsed to liberalism and it isn't the ideology I follow, but it is 1000x better than Nazism

AGAIN THIS.

You've been the only non-pozzed leftist here the last few days. What's your tendency, what books you recommend?

t. only if your talking greek antifa

As long as they fight actually fascists and not just people who are mean to trannies I have no problem with them. Also Chomsky is THE anarcho-liberal. Don't know why people take advice on political strategy from the guy. He has never been good at praxis.

He's not wrong.
He should been a little more nuanced, though.
There is a place for a proactive Antifa, like it had been in the past. Sadly, in the U.S. it mostly fills a reactive role.

Noam Chomsky also said voting for Clinton was a good idea.

Chomsky honks leave.

Noam "Please Vote For Clinton" Chomsky has no real place in understanding what the left needs to do.

No, not really. This board has always called them smashies and been pretty critical

No, everywhere. Stop this eurocentric apologism bias people. Chomsky is saying the overall idea of Antifa is shit

Chomsky's idea of practice is vote liberal until you can organize and be on your best behavior, he's never done anything in the last few years aside make convincing points on why Capitalism fails.

Indeed, many of his previous works and statements seem to clash with what he's saying here, about what he thinks an organized left looks like.

And he's completely wrong and in context, talking against a lot of what he's previously said, not just in the past few years but over his entire career.

I suppose his ideal method of violence now would be if everyone was a hippy who voted Democrat and waited to just shift left, but that is completely alien to what we should be doing. And everyone here knows it.

You should recognize they're always going to be powerless and fight against their porky masters instead
Fascism will always lack influence in the 1st world due to memories of WW2
The alt-right & neo nazis are scaoregoat distractions set up by porkies from the EU, USA, & Russia for Leftists to vent their frustrations on, rather than the rich
Theyre taking a cue from Japanese hypercapitalist politics in this. Right wing factions that have just enough but not too much presence irl but ALOT of presence online

We literally have young republicans going to nazi rallies and here you are spouting this bullshit. Fascism is going to return. It's economically necessity which drives the bourgeoisie to support it, not just feels. As long as capitalism is in place, the threat of fascism will exist.

Tl;dr porky is propping up the threat of paper tiger fascists to herd Leftists into seeming as though theyre defending the status quo, depicting them together with Neoliberal political forces amd equating the two in implication

Porky supports both fascism and liberal capitalism. That's why anti-fascism is an important part of the left. If powerful fascist organizations are allowed to exist porky will start embracing them (especially in times of crisis.)

The problem you have here is that you're severely over estimating the intelligence of rich Americans, they do indeed agree with Holla Forums on many things. The Mercers are a prime example of this phenomenon. There are more.

Oh don't worry, they say they're just being ironic and having fun. :^)

The problem of calling everything fascism was something Trotsky was addressing. He criticizes the Stalinist's theory of 'social fascism' which basically called the socdems fascists.

Like Hitler has no incentive to mythologise the attractiveness, appeal and unstoppability of his own ideas. If you don't think the greater mass of the population can be swayed to the cause by argument and debate, then you might as well go be a liberal.

stop fucking smiling

I bet you think the nazis were actually a socialist party because they had it in their name right?

Say what you will about Antifa, bitch about them to the cows come home, idgaf, but Noam fucking Chomsky is a liberal and should be near completely disregarded. He has some decent discourse on the state and propaganda, and that is about the extent of his usefulness. Fuck that liberal.

Why would the God of the Jews kill one of his Chosen People?

Shut the fuck up.

Back to reddit with you faggot

We've been saying that since forever idiots, antifa fuels the right, you don't need to go any further than Holla Forums or the_donald to find this out.

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I made it more accurate

I kinda agree with gnome that US antifa in it's current state is "a gift" to the street thug/militia/actual neo-nazi elements of the right because it feeds their persecution narrative and creates greater sympathy among their unactivated or currently fence-sitting potential support base.

But I just don't really see any alternative way to deal with them on the ground though. I do agree that discourse, strength of ideas and material analysis is currently the way to pursue liberals on both sides of mainstream politic. But people who are already at the point where they are openly marching with nazi paraphernalia and unashamedly supporting an explicit racial supremacist agenda? They are probably beyond discourse and if they marched through my town and threatened my friends and neighbours, I'd feel compelled to support or join efforts to physically resist them too.

But it's not politics. It does nothing to actually challenge the system that creates the conditions that spawn these fascists and it can't be the face of the left.

chomsky is a dumb lib now and this has been known for a long time

The point is to always be on the defensive. A retarded rally or speech isn't a threat or an attack, but if they were to actually become violent or try intimidating certain communities then that's when you get physical. Being on the defensive against violent Nazis makes you look good, and can't be spinned against you. Being the ones that actually begin the violence when the Rightists were just speaking or demonstrating makes you look bad. Ultimately the Far-Right should be ignored until they become violent, mostly because they're irrelevant until then, and not doing so makes you look like radlibs who respond violently to ideas they don't like, which is honestly 90% of what antifa is.

Chomsky is a paid off blowhard that attacks the actual left for his masters, the superior minded centrists. Attacking Antifa is liberal retardation.
Meanwhile every single movement that has made real change for oppressed groups has used violence and was usually hated by the majority until their cause took hold and readjusted the narratives. Middle class liberals would lament that uppity blacks blocked roads with marches, disregarded social rules, and destroyed private property. "It hurts the cause for everyone they would cry." Not ten years later, they would then boast about how they supported the movement from the beginning and marched with MLK. Same deal with the flaming homos and drag queens for the gay liberation movement. Liberals may lament their lewd behavior but it was exactly those groups that sparked sparked the whole movement during the Stonewall riots.

I didn't know Michael Parenti was one of us

Noam is completely disconnected to the working class. He was useful during the 70s and 80s but now he rarely understands the changing terms and groups within the Left I don't think many should take his word as gospel. He is merely just giving his opinion on the small glimpse he bothers to hear about antifa

Absolutely agree. Genuine neofascists are an unimportant fringe, with any violent factions (themselves a tiny minority inside an even tinier minority) thoroughly infiltrated by law enforcement. If the government is already suppressing fascist violence, and the public is staunchly opposed to fascist speech, what benefit do we gain by disrupting the rule of law and picking street fights?

None, but porky gets a perfect excuse to take away civil rights, whether free expression as rightists have bemoaned, or (rare in the US, but part of a disturbing trend right now in Europe) imposition of martial law IRL.

If these were violent actions against targets with power, such as union-busting employers, military infrastructure, financial institutions, gentrifying developers, and environmentally harmful construction or utilities, I could support them. But slapfights with irrelevant "nazi" memers is pure faggotry.

Hmm. Starting to see a pattern here.

Eddddggyyyyy

Attacking shitlib corps because "das fascis!!! Drumpf lmao! Queer bodies of color!!" would indeed engender that reaction, and quite deservedly.

Attacking them because they are robbing working class people blind, destroying the communities we live in, doing so with concrete local demands for each specific target in hand, would be much tougher to smear or rebrand.

chomsky's ideal for achieving change is to elect democrats and hope for the best. everything else is "immoral" and "not us." everything he says about history and the record is accurate, but when it comes to politics he lives in a fantasy world

this

this. you can see it in action here: youtu.be/HHucMFKM44Q?t=32s noam literally believes that he is "right in the mainstream"

counter protesting right wing protests does none of this, it only validates themselves in their minds. conflict is something they crave. yeah sure, there are the kids just looking to have 'fun' but quickly renounce when they realize they're in danger of being beaten, but that's only in special circumstances. their mindset is very similar to online trolls. whats the point in fighting them when if no one showed up to engage them they wouldn't have any one to fight? you're just giving them what they want.

also this, much more poignant than what I wrote. this is basically what I'm trying to get at.

Also, I should clarify that the best tactic isn't Micheal Moore-style myopia toward retail establishments at the tip of porky's tentacles manned by nothing but fellow proles, but back offices, the personal residences of executives/politicians, supporting/transportation infrastructure, and warehouses of physical assets.

Make direct action great again.

It has not always called them smashies that term has only been around for 8-months to a year. Newfaggot

Look at the history of the police in the US, they are fascist sympathisers

Seriously, stop…

It's true, though.

Chomsky is Reddit bait, even normie bait

if you just made that image it's pathetic.

this is about Antifa, not Gnome Chomper

Chomsky is a major gift to antifa

You haven't even begun to see the OC that I'm capable of creating.

Do you seriously think the US government is going to give up the rainbow ham gravy train they've got going now to resurrect white nationalism from its 50-year-old grave, let alone the rest of the transnational capitalist establishment?

does this decrepit old faggot *ever* support libertarian socialism in practice?

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