Why not social democracy?

Why not social democracy?

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They gave up on abolishing capitalism.


Because I'm a communist.

It's not socialism.
Social democracy isn't useless. It can lead to reforms that genuinely make things better for the working class. And it can also help foster a labor movement where none currently exists–when people make specific demands and have them met, it encourages them to demand more.
But none of it is a real solution to the problems of capitalism, largely because social democracy is always the first victim when capitalism enters a crisis (and it is always only a matter of time until the next crisis, since crises are a normal part of capitalism).
There's also the larger issue that it is possible to both be an actual socialist and to support worker-friendly reforms, too. Being a social democrat instead of a socialist (and you can't be both) is effectively replacing chemotherapy with a bandaid.

Because it's a fragile and imperfect compromise that does not fundamentally negate the contradictions of capitalism, and will ultimately be undone by them. Also it enables fascism.

But can Bernie still win?

Actually, I didn't, and I consider myself a socdem. I just think the abolition cannot happen neither by force or overnight.

Because Rosa blew reformists the fuck out in 1900 with 'Reform or Revolution'.

Because it is litterally a state of limbo.

succdems need to realize that, even if their reforms pass (single payer, free education, nationalized healthcare etc.) which I would/will vote for, capitalists will always be trying to rub it out. And if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. We, and I mean the left from succdems to libertarian socialists, need to CONSTANTLY put the pressure on society, on the bourgeoisie, on the fascists, in order to achieve communism in the final form.
you can't just say "we did it!" when/if "x" reform passes. you need to say "it's not enough." Because it won't be until worker control of the entire country/world is established.
In closing, I think socdem/s can be useful. Not as an actual goal, but as a transitioning for the majority who are new to left wing ideas, and eventually ease the radicalization of the working class.

And Rosa then proceeded to get blown the fuck out by socdems in 1919

see, I'll be all about supporting socdems doing their best in the present conditions, but they always seem to attract the attention of those who think that socialism is when the government does stuff and their idpol is universally endorsed.

Not in the slightest, that's one of the worst written arguments in socialist literature, completely glossing over the reality that reform builds revolution, and reform is possible before revolution. That's just the beginning, there really is a thousand counter arguments and most of them are better.

Except she was proven to be completely correct when the "reformists" proceeded to kill all the revolutionaries, followed by them handing the country to the reactionaries on a silver fucking platter. It's literally the June Days all over again

Better than the current shit I agree but not better than my own.
If I can replace the current shit with SocDem I will but that doesn't means I'm a fan.

No, it's a transitional phase in which the Capitalistic model of production gradually fades away, and you have labour vouchers, planned economy, all that crap.
Alternatively, it's the real movement to change the current state of things if you're a leftcom.

I'm not really idpol, a bit yes, but I don't think it has priority over the material fight.

I don't think anyone alive actually expects (or wants) that to ever happen.

Tell me what flaws Social-Democracies like Iceland, Denmark, or Norway have?

Why shouldn't we all strive to be like these countries, with perhaps a few adjustments?

Lurk more.

The fact that their welfare states are rapidly collapsing
t. Dane

Can confirm.
t. Another Dane

Cockshott does, doesn't he ?
I don't except labour vouchers either, I think good old money can do the trick. It's not evil per see, the Soviets used it as well.

It's collapsing out of low birthrates.

They are not really socdem anymore, more like Social-Liberal, with legacy policies. Finland for example constantly pushes for more "fiscal responsibility" within the EU.

social democracy having a good standard of living and high profit for capitalists requires dicking over the third world. this is no longer viable becuase the third world is industrializing and capitalists can get greater profits by moving jobs to the third world

In Denmark we currently have a coalition government of (neo)liberals, conservatives and libtards. They're doing their best to push back against any victory won by workers movements. Free educations is a good example of this. Also free healthcare. Thankfully they haven't had much succes with the latter one (yet). Oh and our so-called Social Democratic party is actively collaborating with the far right (Danish Peoples Party, who are actually spooked SocDems).

Oh and by libtards I mean Libertarians

Let's hope the inertia surrounding these victories (people really don't like these kind of changes) will protect them.

As in ? How far are we talking about, FN/UKIP/AfD-tier or KKK-tier ?

The workers need a state that is withering yes/no?

Because I'm a socdem and not a socialist (even though I do believe Capitalism needs to end), I'd say yes, they need it.

The State would oversee, distribute, police and assure order and tranquillity for the new society, all this in a truly democratic fashion, without the flaws bourgs have introduced in Democracy.
Stirner and Bordiga be damned.

They need and it should not wither away, at least I don't see why it should happen.

Why do we need a state to do these things? Why can people not do this locally?

And that's a bad thing? It'd be nice to see one of those third way nationalist parties in Europe link up with a left-wing party and follow though with the economic policy that they claim to support.

You are very confused.

UKIP I'd say

The point is that the social democratic party isn't left wing.

Because that would be a more efficient allocation of resources, also, some things need to be administrated at an higher level.
You oversee elementary school at town/collectivities of town level, high schools at a subregional level, universities at a regional level.

It's nice that the little town of Boston administrates his technological University, but if it cannot negotiates with high-schools over Massachusetts for internship, discovery programs and other cool stuff, it's a waste.

I'm spooked as fuck about Nation and I disagree. Some genuine nazis hide in the "respectable" far-right parties, they are just smarter than Americans.

Even the title essentially warrants a pithy response
Why not both? Are we in the strange world of neoclassical trade where time doesn't exist?

Social Democracy gets stuck partway through. All political power goes to maintaining the existing reforms rather than to create new ones. In the end, you just end up with the same result as the capitalism with a human face branch of liberalism.


As far they're allowed to go, by their voters, while still being able to use a populist strategy

Have fun jumping in the oven

Regarding our SocDem party; these are also the same people responsible for partly privatizing, what used to be a state-owned energy company, DONG (name is funny, get over it). By selling a huge chunk of it Goldman-Sachs no less (they bought 17.9% of the shares, and are now selling those shares to the highest bidder aka fuck knows who).
They also lockouted teachers, during the teachers strike of 2013. They did this in collaboration with employers to force teachers in to working longer hours. Here's what the Danish Teachers Union has to say about that (in English): dlf.org/media/962620/lockout-web.pdf.

I could go on, but I don't have all day.

The Socialist Peoples Party (SF) was also heavily involved with this (this resuslted in most of their voters jumping ship).

Denmark is the ultimate modern example of why socdems are fucking cancer

The SPD advocated both capitalism and fascism though.

too soon…

You can't blame people for wanting a better system than what they were already living in.

A country with happy people and good living standards? It's better than everything communists ever accomplished.

Its socialism for adults but when the time is right revolutionary action has to be taken.

Its literally heaven on earth compared to rest of the world.
T. Nord

Anti-depressants might have something to do with that
Declining, thanks to the socdem party tearing apart our "wonderful" welfare state. In ten years time, there'll be nothing left of it

This, she was proven right the moment they kill her