Why should I care if someone is a billionaire if I'm living a comfortable life myself?

There are no guarantees in life. I can get fucked over by poor people as well as rich people.

Fucking how? Because they steal from you? They will only do that because of the economic prospects they have. The billionaire's wealth was not magically created by their own will. Capitalism necessitates poor people, you will never get rid crime in that regard.

If you admit you can get fucked over by rich people, then you have just proven how invalid your arguments were.

The crime of a poor man can destroy the lives of a few, at most. The crime of a rich man can destroy entire civilisations.

I can get maimed or killed in a traffic accident. Someone crazy can just stab me and leave me bleeding.

I'm more likely to get killed by a "poor" person than by a rich one, simply because there are more people who identify as poor.

Pure fucking ideology.

Just because that can happen does not absolve the rich from what they can do for profit. We could be curing many more diseases than just making new pharmaceuticals that manage symptoms. We could reduce crime to extremely low levels. We could essentially get rid of "ghettos", stop or significantly slow global warming, free and better education if we got rid of the profit motive. In your case, you would probably still live in the same house you are comfortable in, but there will be no property taxes, escrow or mortgage. You will likely work much less and have more time to your hobbies and family.

What, it's not a decision they make.

This isn't a matter of identity, you idiot. Material wealth and class position are material things, and identity does not matter.
While you can get killed by a random guy trying to rob you, you can just as easily lose your job and benefits, and be condemned to a life of misery. You can even be conscripted to fight in a war, or die in nuclear fire. All of this to feed the greed of the bourgeoisie.

Prove it.

Poverty is relative. Compared to the rest of the world, western countries don't have poor people.

where do you think the billionaires get their money from?

Not an argument.

Fuck off, you clearly intend to reject all points on the most specious idiotic grounds without even considering them

Your argument continues being invalid. You are saying it is not a problem, because it is just a serious as another problem, so you shouldn't care about it. This is logically incoherent, unless your point is that problems should just be ignored instead of fixed. If that is indeed your point, then I must call you lazy and impractical.

While it is true that povery is relative, class position is not. The bourgeoisie is a class that makes money by extracting it from the work of others. They are the business owners.
The structure of capitalism leads to humanity behaving in very irrational ways, and essentialy being a slave to the economic system. The business owner is as much a slave to capitalism as the worker is.
We are saying that humanity should control the economy instead of letting itself be controlled by it.

It WAS an argument, unlike the ones you have made. These situations are maintained because the bourgeoisie needs to make maximise its profits. If the business owner does not try to maximise his profits, his business is sure to be overtaken by another. Poverty is a direct consequence of how capitalism is based on extracting value from the workers, and placing it in the hands of the business owners. It transfers wealth from those that make it (the workers) to give to unproductive parasites (the business owners).

Most wealth such as land, natural resources, in America is owned by the government.
So the government should redistribute their riches to the people.

If I am satisfied with my life, then why should I care? I don't see any proven benefits with socialism/communism.
If someone lowers my taxes, I see a direct benefit in my life. A promise of a better life down the road isn't worth much in comparison.

If it's not wrong for you to do everything purely out of self interest why is it wrong for us to put you against the wall for a better life for mankind in general?

You don't believe the problems of capitalism should be fixed and should simply be let to ruin things, just because you are doing your best to ignore them?

In communism there are no taxes, because there is no money.

Sure, why not.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between what we consider material (or at least objective) analysis, and whether or not (or how to, if you decide to) respond.
I've thought about how I'd rather not spend too much time thinking about politics or revolution when I know a revolution probably won't succeed in my lifetime, and I think maybe working towards it despite not knowing its fate (or at all really) isn't the best way to spend my limited amount of time; but what always comes back are those feelings of alienation and lack of freedom, which has to translate into some activity eventually (for me, at least).
So it's your choice to be honest, and it's not an easy one.

because he is fucking you over. are you a wage worker? do you work for a wage?

I just don't see any improvements with socialism.

I have a good life, so if I'm satisfied why should I care?

At least we can agree on something then, classcuck.

your salary gets raised, he is poorer because he has to pay you more. GOOD tbh.

Labor creates value tbh. Labor is the physical shit. You grab with your wage like what? less than 5% of that value you generate.

aka you're getting fucked over m8. But you barely notice. If you don't know any of this work for a wage, you will realize it quickly. You could be much, much richer.

Yeah, working for a revolution seems like a waste of time instead of improving my material wellbeing. There's not going to be a revolution in my lifetime, so why not focus on myself instead?

Then you're an individualistic nihlist and it's not in your self intestest to even care
and thats fine,
just don't get in our way

thanks~♥

I'm OK with it because I know it will never happen. Leftwing "revolutionaries" in the west are effete LARPers.

How about an end to wars, environmental disasters, alienation, exploitation, and poverty?

We have one of these at least every other day dont we?

Why should I care about being much, much richer if money and wealth, according to this board, is to be abolished.

yea is pretty stupid tbh.

individualistic anarcho-nihlism. enjoy it OP. fap all you want homie be happy.
bye.

just because someone is rich (yes, even 10 figures rich) that doesn't inherently mean they are exploiting anyone

if you cannot convince me, you won't convince the masses either.

don't. if you don't want to don't. do whatever you want, just don't fuck us over or you will get fucked.

you're true blue, you're golden. follow your dreams.

You're probably right, most likely we'll both just end up getting executed by Zuccbots when food supplies run low and exterminism starts, but I guess this is the future we chose.

jacobinmag.com/2011/12/four-futures

It will never happen, unless we kill all humans first.

Someone living "comfortably" is not the person who communism is meant for. You will get the wall, classcuck.

Why would I fuck you over? You don't have anything of value to begin with.

the "muh true human natur" is a spook homie. Maybe you can't/don't get along with others. But I can.

Most of the western world are living comfortably.
Good luck convincing them to rebel.

Because inevitably you won't be living a comfortable life. That's just the way life is, and and once you're there, getting out is quite difficult, against say, a billionaire.

If your philosophy is just self interest why shouldn't people trying to look out for themselves and their families be against you? After all, your political view of just ignoring the obvious problems and saying everything is A OK, is what a majority does, and its inaction leads to America's irresponsibility in electing officials that suit their needs.

You're going to be effected by things like your health, climate change, growing gap between poor and rich. And your solution is "everything is fine?"

That is not the case, you are just a lazy asshole.

You have only a baseless assumption to support that claim. We have entire theories to support ours.

if I had you would?
because I do

it's ok being lazy af. but why did he made the thead? idk loneliness probably.

he has no life, he is an undead PC nerd. Idk why he isn't playing MMOs rn.

They are not actually. Take a look at the opiod crisis in the usa, the massive income inequality, the raped healthcare, the stagnant wages. The "west" is quickly being turned into a third world country like the rest of the world.

You are just an ignorant pissant and reality will catch up with you sooner or later

Humans aren't rational beings. Never have been, never will be.
Socialism might be possible in a strong-AI, post-scarcity world, but not now.

Nah, still wouldn't. Don't care enough.

this.

You are content with your life, the millionaire is obsessed with money to such an extend he will kill you if it means he can have more.

Then your revolution will come sooner.
Aren't you happy that so many are suffering in the west now?

Meh, some homeless guy might kill me as well.

I hope for a better life for the most people. The revolution is necessary for this.

We already live in a post-scarcity world.
If you are looking into computer-based solutions for socialism, you can read this book by a dude called Cockshott. He wants computers to run the economy, and explains the math and economics behind his proposals.

A homeless guy can shank you, despite not having to be homeless.

The millionaire can poison your water, food, make you homeless, take away your medicine, rights, time off, salary, etc etc, all to make a bit more money for no reason.

good. follow your design, delete this pointless thread or at least or don't. The mods anchor it anyways. It's useless.

I don't think you do, you just like the romantic aspect of the revolution. Otherwise you'd work towards alleviating suffering instead of being joyful over how American workers suffer.

Read it already.
It's just enterprise resource management software on a national level.

yeah it's called socialism.

Should I spend my whole life volunteering at homeless center when one stroke of a pen from a multimillionaire slumlord or offshoring consultant will cause more harm than I could alleviate in a hundred lifetimes?

You're berating me for not being greedy?
That's not very socialist of you.

Eh, yes and?

So instead you choose to not do anything.

You like the romantic aspect that everything in the world is perfectly normal and there are no problems to solve to make life better for the rest of is.

If you're worried about having to care or not care about billionaires, why do you care to make this thread to begin with?

no dude. like you say: "I just don't care"
bye

It's not revolutionary, it's modern state capitalism.

Who are you to judge me for what I do (which you have no idea about anyway) when you admit you don't give a fuck what happens to anyone except yourself?

I said I don't care enough to fuck you over.
I'm not someone who fucks over people.
And this offended you somehow.

Massive projection on your part but at least its a reaction. What is your callous indifference doing to make the lives of american workers better?

The problem is not billionaires or millionaires or 'rich people', i have no issue with people living lives of opulence as long as they earn them with their own labour rather than by bargaining their capital against my labour to get it at my expense. I oppose the silicon valley entrepreneur as much as the cornershop owner.

The internal workings of society are a moneyless orginisation.
Throw in lack of classes and you have socialism.

State capitalism is not "the state doing anything that happens right now", it means that the economy is run as a capitalist organisation with money and production for exchange.

Obviously you think helping homeless people is pointless, so you're not doing that.

It's admirable, I guess, but in the long term it contributes nothing to changing the root causes

It's as useful as throwing a glass of water inside an erupting volcano, but hey at least it can makes people feel good about themselves.

Good luck trying to abolish money in favor of something as crippled and useless as labour vouchers.

Have you actually ever read anything?

yet another retard who doesn't understand the point of them

So helping people to stop suffering is pointless?
And I get called callous and indifferent around here.
Huh.

Labour vouchers are less flexible than regular money.

Lel I'm sure nobody noticed how you're now playing both sides of the 'self interest is everything' and 'you are so mean for not caring about poor people', you're totally arguing in good faith and aren't just a useful idiot for people 10,000 times richer than you who couldn't give a single fuck about you.

That's the point dipshit, you say that like it's not intentional.

Its the difference between sneaking some of your rations to weaker slaves and banding together to kill the slaveowner.

Just trying to understand your reasoning, that's all.

It just shows what an ignorant liberal you are. You think you're now arguing for "helping homeless people" but what you're arguing against is "solving what made them homeless in the first place".

If something is less flexible, it means it's harder to use than regular currency, which means whoever is using labour vouchers will revert to regular currency instead.

Why not both?

Thats the point of them.
Just like how laws make food production "less flexible" so they dont make poisoned eggs. Or how programming languages are less flexible to enforce good behaviour and patterns. Or how roads are less flexible so people dont crash into each other at 200 miles an hour.

Well yeah then I agree.

the point is everyone is paid in labour vouchers, you're getting capitalism and different kinds of socialism all mixed up (which admittedly isn't all your fault thanks to the retardation of marketsuccs)

If you want to play ancap I suggest you fuck off back to liberty. If you cant pay with your monopoly money or gold in a shop, its harder to use than labour vouchers.

Your arguments makes no sense, if people chose the "most flexible" currency then why doesnt everybody in the world switch to dollars or bitcoins? Oh right, because people want to use money.

We don't argue charity is bad (except in cases where private property is used to alleviate suffering cause by private property) but rather that eliminating the need for charity and guaranteeing prosperity for all is a greater priority much like one would rather cure the disease than treat the symptoms in perpetuum.

99% of charity groups are fronts for tax evation

Dollar is the most flexible currency and is the world's reserve currency. You cannot buy crude oil without using dollars on the world market.

That's assuming everyone is OK with using labour vouchers.

...

no it doesn't, because that's all the state will issue.

Yet the day to day transactions in the world are done in local currencies, not dollars. Why's that? I thought you said "people will switch to the most flexible currency"?
Or is it perhaps that your argument only aplies for capitalist with large international trade? Because there isnt going to be capitalists.

You dont get a choice, just like you dont get a choice to get paid in euros when you work in america

lolno

nice that you showed your true retarded colors check out this thread:

bitch got fucked by all the real anarchies convined. butt raped, hard. it was lewd.

No state issued bitcoins or ethereum and they're actual currencies.

I can get paid in euros, bitcoins, or ethereum if I work in America. In fact, I've gotten paid in dollars when working in Europe.

bitcoin was briefly a way to buy drugs or credit card numbers and now is purely a way for people to try and speculate and get rich in USD/Euros by holding them and hoping the price goes up, call me back when you can go to the corner store and buy milk with bitcoins (but even that would not be allowed in socialism so it's a moot point anyway)

Ancaps are retarded, btw.

If I start giving people IOU's I would also be issuing a currency. And I would probably have the same impact on the day to day type of currency used in the economy. Insignificant.

Working temporarily for an american company in europe?
Show me.

So the surveillance apparatus would remain?

every 'store' would be linked to the central economic databanks (or supercomputer or whatever), it wouldn't even make theoretical sense to buy and sell with non labour vouchers. the cashier if such a thing even existed wouldn't have the authority to take anything but vouchers.

If you have a bitcoin wallet, you can have people transfer money to that wallet. There's nothing to show. Contractors accept bitcoins.

If a store in socialism "sells" you something for bitcoins, then the person "selling" it to you is actually stealing, because the thing sold belonged to the collective and they just took it without paying labour vouchers.
I thought you ancaps believed in the nap? Stealing violates the NAP right?

I knew you would say that, a service that transfers USD to bitcoin and back for you so you can buy stuff isn't the same as your work actually paying you in bitcoins

Show me one place in america where you have been paid in euros or bitcoins.

No, but obviously laws would.

Ancaps are giant retards who are closeted neofeudalists.

Also, it's easy to set up an eBay where someone sells goods for currencies that they purchased with labour vouchers.

ye

I think people with autism who don't know they're actually autistic is a better description. Like, closeted autists.

spendbitcoins.com/places/c/contractors/

And what are the people buying them going to pay with?

Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin or ethereum or marxcoin.

Must be NA

That's not the same as being paid in them but either way holy shit you found 22 small businesses in the whole of the US. Wow that proves your point.

I was buying something on Humble Bundle yesterday (yeah yeah) and I saw at the bottom they no longer accept Bitcoin payments after a few years ago they introduced it. Face it, Bitcoin is the new tulips.

I mean sure that's theoretically possible but what would be the reason to use a site like that when you can just get what you want with your labour vouchers anyway?

Keep moving them goalposts.

If someone has an excess of labour vouchers, they can convert them into cryptocurrencies by selling goods there.

I should really start copying this shit because this is 100% EXACTLY like the same argument last week.

Go ahead, sell your coffee for bitcoin. Spend your vouchers to ship it to people. Nobody will buy coffee on your ebay autism, because your little market adds to the price, which makes it cheaper to just buy it in vouchers. So you buy coffee, send it to people for bitcoin, then use that bitcoin to buy tampons and pay for shipment, while you could have just not bought coffee and bought tampons instead in the store.

Your little market would only exist as a LARP site between ancaps like you, who mine autismcoins, then buy coffee or tampons from other autists. The only reason you do this is in the hope that the exchange value of your autismcoins goes up so you can buy more coffee, and to buy drugs with online. So go ahead, buddy, its litterally not a problem because you cannot own the means of production, so you cannot decide what currency to use.

And then?

If I have an online market, I can buy goods to build my own means of production by using goods purchased by labour vouchers.

And then we have a market economy that's more efficient than the sclerotic labour voucher apparatus.

Two things:
1. Why would anyone want to work for you? There is full employment
2. Thats illegal. You will be arrested if you try to employ people.

Yea keep dreaming buddy. Im sure your coffee and tampon market is somehow more efficient than the voucher system, even though theres not really anything to be efficient about because you dont produce anything, you just resell at a loss.

Who needs people? I can automate the means of production and only accept cryptocurrencies as payment. There are niche markets that the state cannot or will not provide for.

How am I reselling at a loss when labour vouchers aren't currency?

What are you going to use your bitcoins for? Buying stuff from other people who sell the same stuff that you can also buy? But you had to pay for shipping twice, so you would have been better off if you bought things directly rather than in a roundabout way with monopoly money.

Who are you going to sell to? Other people with automated means of production? Until someone gets larger than the rest, accumulates more capital and money, makes the others lose their property to pay for their stuff, then find they arent able to sell their stuff to people who dont have money?

Also not an argument. You provide no proof for this, unless you meant selling child sex slaves, then you are 100% right, but you will also be put to death by a tankround to the head.

You assume I can get everything from the local market, which is incorrect.
There are local variations that won't be imported because the functionality of the local goods are equivalent, but the design is different.

Look at all the Japanese imported goods being sold, even though you can get equivalent products locally.

You are litterally the same person as last time.

Also, no, because if there is consumer demand for such goods you can get them. A labour voucher system isnt authoratively utalitarian, you fucking american.

Im gonna start making screenshots of this, im tired of writing the same shit again and again.

If there's no profit motive, why should the state ship televisions from Japan when there are functional equivalents locally?

>inb4 you cant get them because I said so
Imagine amazon ye, but you pay with labour vouchers and can get it shipped to your house.

Boom, you can now order all the hungarious fingerpuppet drawings you want, what an idea huh?

Because people want the japanese tv, they put the hours in and are willing to pay the cost of transportation.

That means less people making television sets locally.

...

Knowledge of local high-end manufacturing disappearing, a need to retrain old workers that might not have the intellectual aptitude to do so.

If the knowledge to make apparently sub-par tv's disappears because people dont want it anymore, whats the problem?

Are you suggesting that older workers are too retarded to learn? Are you instead suggesting we should let them work making useless things that nobody wants just to keep em busy?
Everybody can learn new skills.

Also if they are functionally identical and their high end manufacturing knowledge is so good, why dont they just make japanese tv's? Or something else that is still needed?

There's the environmental impact of shipping goods from Japan or China to the United States.

Yes.
So…? The shipping costs can be increased to reflect this if society deems it important. And don't think I dont see what youre trying to do. Youre trying to make me adopt a strawman version of my own position, even while your "market" within socialism or within capitalism doesnt give a fuck about the environment or importation over local production.

Correction:
The availability of shipping can be decreased to increase the price and decrease the impact, which is the means by which you limit negative purchases in a labour voucher system.

What is the strawman version of your own position?

...

Why should you be allowed to ruin the environment just because you want luxury goods like Japanese television sets?

If this is your position why do you use the possibility of doing this as an argument in favour of your black market system?
Why shouldn't you be allowed to burn some fuel to get a luxery product? If society things there should be a limit on burning and shipping shit they can just make shipping more expensive.

It seems you are a proponent of a very invasive surveillance state with ideologically set restrictions.

See, there you do it. You pretend to be a bleeding heart hippie and whine about "muh nature", then as soon as I say "look mate i dont care, its a democratic decision" then you say "Aha got you so you want to restrict muh freedumbs".

Not sure why you think we need a surveillance state to check import. Its not exactly easy to hide a megaship that illegally ships tvs for bitcoins. And stopping the black market doesnt require a surveillance state, its pretty easy to just do that by looking at discrepancies between personal wealth and official income or having sting operations. Monitoring the phonecalls of every citizen isnt going to stop black markets, so theres no reason to do it.

All rules in human society are set ideologically, including rules that say "you cant make more rules because rules are bad" like free market advocates say. All restrictions are ideological.

How do you propose to do that?

Have you ever learned anything about how anything regarding police and tax and fraud investigation works?

Sounds like the jealousy police.

Sounds like you need to stop being infantile.

...

No respect even for private property.
Sounds pretty nightmarish to me when someone will inspect my home to check if I have nicer stuff than my neighbor.

No respect especially for private property.
Thats not what I said you mental handicap. Your cars aren't in your home. If you can hide your wealth so well in secret then well done to you, but to use money you need to spend it, and to spend it you need to use it outside on things, all of which cant be kept secret forever.

Just admit you want to be able to break laws.

Personal property then.

...

I meant personal property.

Why should we have respect for personal property if you obtained it using illegal means?

So innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply anymore in socialist utopia?

It does you illiterate tool.

Thats how it works right now in places without muh survayyylense state

Without a warrant?