I might be putting on a website for political chat these days and need more info on popularity of positions from the left. And what a better place to ask?
That's it for the introduction (see webm related), what I need to know is which positions of the (what is considered to be) left would you include here? Please take the popularity of positions into consideration, so your regular person doesn't have to chose between 17 flavors of anarcho-nihilism and project venus without being able to select something that appeals to them. What I put here on beginning of webm is only a placeholder. Imagine there's nothing (will accept between 5-10 positions total).
So what I'd like to know is: 1) Popular positions that are sufficiently distinct in their attitudes 2) Who are the best contemporary representatives of these positions, will accept multiple if you think it's important (will accept good left-facing pictures from which I can make something akin to what you saw in webm) 3) Flags for these positions which can be downscaled to 29x29 pixels without looking bad 4) The antagonism level between various positions of the left you or others in this thread proposed
There is also some nuance in choosing positions, for example I have no idea what practical difference there is between contemporary "democratic socialists", "progressives" and (to lesser extent) neo-liberals. A lot of people would call themselves one of the first two, while nobody would chose third even though it's somewhat accurate. Or would they? That's why I'm here.
pls read some theory of political ideologies first then develop a consistent way to categorise ideologies/comprehensive ideological positions, if you want to make them fit into neat boxes the categories in your demo video are silly
If I wasn't clear enough, that's why I came here for advice , Nebojša
Probably the wrong place to ask tbh.
Generally the radical left is divided between anarchists and marxists. While you have both in your webm, I would reconsider the names for them. Anarcho-communism is by far the most popular anarchist tendency, it is much harder to name the other one imo. It might be better to call it "Marxism-Leninism" instead of "Communism", but some people will definitely feel like they won't belong in either then. Calling it something with "Marxism" initially seems like a bad idea since it is a heavily misunderstood name.
Unless you don't mind putting in a lot of categories you should mind that btw I suggest going with "Anarchist Socialism" and "Marxist Socialism"
Does the advocates have to be contemporary? If so, it will be a divided issue. I suggest Kropotkin and Marx as pictures for the two names I suggested.
I won't comment on the rest of your categories except for: they dumb
This is probably your best bet, OP. Otherwise you're going to have to make 20 different categories to capture all the different currents within the left.
I could go with "Anarchist Socialism" and "Marxist Socialism" if you think that would represent those two better in broad sense. Would these flags still be appropriate, or would something else be more fitting?
As far as the advocates, I'd prefer contemporaries but I will include older/original representatives, including the two you suggested. As far as contemporaries go, the celebs/e-celebs would be best.
Will make a random variable (example 1 to 3) and it will throw you a corresponding image. I don't mind having more, except that they take time to make.
That being said, I know this isn't the best place to ask about the more mainstream leftist positions, but you're still probably better equipped with that than I am.
Hmm… so this is like omegle but with political ideologies? Trying to be generic i'll list: Progressivism, social democracy, socialism, communism, anarchism Dunno what else but you can't get more generalized than this
I'm saying your whole logic is backwards. Base your categories around core values rather than names of political movements or ideologies removed from their historical context. Conservatism for example is a relative position and notoriously hard to pin down as an ideology. Letting people choose their own ideology without any kind of normalisation will lead to two people with largely incompatible worldviews both picking 'conservatism' or 'liberalism' for example.
Make the person do a questionnaire instead of picking their ideology - first starting from core values to find their position on the radical-reactionary scale, essentialism v structuralism, statism vs anarchism etc. then with qualifying questions to differentiate between social/conservative liberals or different flavours of socialism. This makes it hard to diffrentiate between ideologies with weak theoretical basis such as fascism and nazism but the labels don't really matter that much anyway.
Using the gay rainbow flag for progressivism is kind of insulting. And you might want space for eco-socialist, as many Greens now identify as that.
Before I go If I was you I'll pair people based on their political test score, you know the one with the four squares
Don't be so hard on him, he's trying to make an app
I would consider removing Progressivism entirely from the list because it doesn't represent any specific political ideology. Progressivism is about the idea of social progress and moving society forward through policies based on empirical evidence. It can broadly encompass both social democrats and communists.
Very generally, you could break the ideology between these groups -
Anarchists Marxists Social Democrats
Between the Anarchists, you could reasonably divide them between Social Anarchists, Individualist Anarchists, and Mutualists.
Between the Marxists, you could reasonably break them down between Orthodox Marxists, Left Communists, and Leninists
Between the Social Democrats you would have, well, social democrats and also democratic socialists.
Here are some good figures for each ideology
Social Anarchism - Mikhail Bakunin Individualist Anarchism - Max Stirner Mutualism - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
Orthodox Marxism - Friedrich Engels Left Communism - Amadeo Bordiga Leninism - Vladimir Lenin
Social Democracy - Eduard Bernstein Democratic Socialism - Salvador Allende
Rename communism to marxism-leninism because 90% of non-leftists who say "communism" are just referring to the soviets and the eastern bloc
there anarcho-communism, trotskyism, left-communism, maoism, communalism
social democracy too I guess
classical liberalism and neoliberalism seem redundant. alt right isn't a political ideology.
It is definitely the two I'd go with if I wanted to choose only two.
They're alright imo
See this is more or less the problem. The left today is not in the mainstream. Since you're not a filthy commie we're probably going to disagree on what "leftism" means. "Democratic Socialism" is probably an alright one to have in there since it exists for some reason, but most other ideologies in your webm are badly named in ways other people have explained. Consider "Social Democracy" (basically scandivanian type shit).
While I won't tell you what software you should make, I would personally remove non-economic ideologies since they're mostly minor things like wanting gay people to be able to marry.
going to bed will probably see response tomorrow
This is not a bad idea, I could include it later on. For the start I want to make it so that you have something approximate position to click on. If I can roughly satisfy Holla Forums, I'll consider my mission complete.
Yes, I understand that many of these positions don't have a coherent ideological backing, but many people identify as them. I am trying to include both what is popular and what has real weight behind it.
I know for progressives, but I legitimately couldn't find a flag. It appears to me that the only differentiating factor between them and others on that list is that they by rule care about sexual minorities. If you provide a better flag I will include it. TYT's logo?
That was along my line of thinking.
Might make an option in the future, like calculating the distance between two positions and pairing people with the highest distance/length.
No, that's liberalism. And TYT is even more insulting, Jimmy Dore is the only principled progressive on that entire shit network.
This is a very difficult question to answer. I can only answer this one :
3) Flags for these positions which can be downscaled to 29x29 pixels without looking bad Social-Democracy is often represented by a single rose, with Democratic Socialism (our more radical cousin) represented with the rose and the fist.
4) The antagonism level between various positions of the left you or others in this thread proposed Socdems are bullied by everyone, from leftcoms to MLs including Trots. Partly because of our history - we did kill Rosa, after all, but also because we technically do not want to remove Capitalism for several reasons - I would say because it's too strong to kill in one blow, our detractors because we are filthy bourgs -, rather improve it and make it liveable for workers.
Wikipedia articles on leftist ideologies give a good synopsis ; they are, however, far from perfect.
I suggest you base your ideological categorisation on the radical-reactionary axis of societal change. This picture is inaccurate as in reality the status quo 'centre' is between conservatives and reactionaries, and the reactionary side of the graph should be as long as the whole progressive line is. So it would roughly go something like: Anarchists - Socialists - Social democrats - Social liberals - Conservative liberals - (status quo) - Traditionalists (Paternal autocrats like monarchists) - Fascists - Nazis - Primitivists
I agree with this analysis, yet I have a feeling it would be a somewhat popular button to click on for many people. Will consider it, since I can't find a flag for it anyway.
Will definitely include those two groups, I think with first two I'll go with names as suggested (Anarchist-Socialism and Marxist-Socialism).
They are what many people would call themselves. The only trouble I have from your list is neo-liberalism because it is essentialy bourgeoisie elitist non-ideology, but it's descriptive of many people. Yet, I'm not sure if anyone would click on that button.
Is there a big difference between democratic socialism and social democracy? I know that if there is any difference whatsoever, people would feel left out, not quite sure what to do there.
Hey buddy, arguing about spooks is the best part of politics.
I'm not sure what to do about these, I thought about including Democratic Socialism but the fact that the other exists and am not certain which one is more "popular" puts me in a rough spot.
On antagonism: Let me elaborate on this:
The app will not merely pair left and right (since there will always be disbalance) but will pair within left and right. Let me give you an example: Someone who takes position of "classical liberal" would have more disagreement with marxist-socialist than marxist-socialist would have with anarcho-socialist. In that sense, I'm seeking greater fracture points (2-3 within left) that would make disagreements non-autistic.
95% of people self-identifying to an ideology have it completely wrong, so don't worry. Just say socdems.
Disagreement mostly comes to interpersonal issues. Some socdems will be hell-bent on defending institutions that other will find inherently wrong. Other socdems will be critical of them and flow will go better. Contrary wise, a Libertarian Socialist with a good sense of left unity or that is not too much buttblasted will tolerate socdems much better than tankies.
Good luck nonetheless.
Anarcho-Communism Marxist-Leninist Left Communism Democratic Socialist
I think I have it figured out.
I'll put a button on bottom of selector screen that says something like "I'm autistic" and it will provide like 20 more positions from left and right.
Alright, for now I have decided to put:
maybe demoratic socialism I will also definitely include because it is a popular position, which will be antagonistic to other three.
What else should I put that is not roughly encompassed above? How would you deconstruct others that I put on list (neo-liberalism, progressivism, green movements)? And did I miss something here?
nobody (including me) knows what the fuck left communism is, this is too autistic
Socialism Anarchism Social Democracy Liberalism
sounds good honestly drop democratic socialism
are you planning on adding small explainations for the ideologies? If so I think you should ask us here to do that too
neo-liberalism in the left side
Yes, but that comes later. I'll definitely need a summary (that's why I prepared the "positions" tab).
Right now I'd like to prepare positions with background so I can run beta/stress test to figure out what sort of hosting I need for this.
Other parts of the website will probably run on slightly modified wordpress theme, but I'm not there yet.
No, that's simply too damn broad. We can sum up the last 300 years of politics with liberalism, fascism and socialism
I know m80, but the person that would describe itself as such would most likely consider itself to be on the left and have some sort of antagonism to the right.
I already decided to put liberalism in one category opposed to marxists and anarchists to remedy this.
I suggest: Consider:
What does 'classical liberalism' mean? Lockean Anglo contractualism? Radical Jacobin republicanism?
just in case this isn't a shitpost, monarchist conservatism died in Europe only just about a hundred years ago.
In this context it almost certainly means 'racist and politically illiterate young republicans'
Pic related is where I'm at.
What to throw out / add / change flags?
People that usually identify as such casually describe themselves as non-marxist leftists, and there is some objective difference from conservatives which casually rely on religion to give them somewhat coherent worldview. It's a fairly popular position so I have to include it.
FBI. you're not getting our IPs. please stop trying.
I would say a leaf or tree was a better representation of Green, and I really think you need a generic 'liberal' tag. Also no hyphen in Marxist Socialism.
Please suggest something, I'm asking for this since beginning of thread.
Smart, but given that I have "classical liberalism" it sort of complicates things. But it would be more appealing, yes.
I understand you feel you need that but it's a meme ideology only used by retards, most of them would fit better in basic bitch Conservatism
Sorry I may have missed it but what is the point of this app exactly? Is the idea that you choose an ideology to roleplay as and then you choose another ideology and then you're matched with someone who has selected that ideology and then you try and "win" a "debate" against them?
It's like political omegle. You can't search am match for specific ideology right now, but I'll add that option if it ever reaches a big stable userbase.
Green doesn't really fit with the rest, since it could encompass anything from ancoms to conservatives to primitivists. It's not a worldview or a political system like anarchism or liberalism are.
I agree with this, it was more of a filler thing. Might throw it out.
a CIA plant do not let your IP get taken. use a proxy or you will get doxxed.
I'm always using a vpn myself.
Also, there will be no ip logging/analysis for the start, albeit I might add a ban option if someone is trying to abuse the database. That would rely on ip.
That's a good idea, but breaking them all down into core values doesn't seem simple.
How does this make you feel?
who is that on the left? looks like Jimmy Dore.
Yes, just drew it. Trying to keep image size as low as possible so it's not very smooth. The added transparency on the page helps though.
The interface looks pretty neat I have to say. When are you aiming to get it up and running?
In the next day or two, most likely.
What frightens me is how it will work though. If it ever gets even remotely popular (and I'm talking 100+ people at all times, not omegle-tier) I'll have to switch to dedicated server. That frightens me tbh since I have experience with shared hosting (and it's cheaper).
I leave you with video about what the "A" button does.
I'm off to sleep. Will check the thread tomorrow. Please suggest contemporaries for background images. also the flag for progressives
Ralph Nader is the more quintessential icon of progressivism tbh. He's accomplished more outside office than any elected progressive since the '60s.
How about instead of the flag you use thumbnails of the portraits?
I think "Anarchist Socialism" is better than "Anarcho-Socialism"
Right, fixed it. I misread the advice above.
If you use the word socialism and not communism I'll ddos your site.
This seems like a good website to practice deflecting strawmen.
I'd say its better off like that as not everyone that considers themselves socialists will also consider themselves communists (e.g. mutualists) and the site wants to be as wide-reaching as possible.
Maybe, but those people can go eat a dick. Marx stopped using the word socialism himself because it had already gotten bourgois connotations. Socialism is aryan, communism is jewish. And we are definitively jewish here.
Alright, I'm almost done with it.
If someone can link me a good progressive logo I'll try to put it up in the next 24h.
Also contemporaries for positions seen here (will probably purge green)
Noam 'vote democrat' Chomsky for anarchists Slavoj 'bureucratic socialism' Zizek for marxists Some obnoxious bourgie feminist for progressives, tbh this or neoliberal should be removed, as I understand the word political 'progressives' fall somewhere between socdem and neolib in political alignment Jeremy 'Jez we can' Corbyn for socdem or Thomas 'just tax them bro' Piketty if theorists are better Milton Friedman or Jean-Claude Juncker or Martin Shultz or someone else awful for liberalism For Classical liberals maybe Robert Nozick, he is dead tho
Yearning for a return to pre-civilised hunter-gatherer societies is about as reactionary as one can get.
Primitivism is pretty much peek reactionary ideology. Imagine the fascists desire to return to a pre liberal society and take that mindset to it's most radical conclusion.
You understand wrong. It runs the gamut from socdem to communist. Marx even mentions progressive forces in the manifesto. Hillary Clinton can call herself whatever she likes but there's nothing progressive about a woman becoming CEO just so she can keep other women down.
Not in general, but in this context. If 'progressive' means the opposite of 'reactionary' then it is a completely worthless category to have in OP's website.
Yeah it really isn't a precise enough philosophy to be on this list.
fuck off I hope your website fails miserably.
your website is spooked af, you're spooked af.
This is kinda bad for several reasons. Classical Liberalism and Neoliberalism are almost indistinguishable nowadays, also neoliberalism is often an insult and never used as a self-descritption. Progressivism and Green is not a political ideology, and can be part of any. I'd just call the Marxist Socialist simply "communists". Name Anarcho-Socialism libertarian socialism. With that being on the list, it is clear for everybody that communism means marxist communism. My Suggestion:
Fascism, Conservativism, Classical Liberalism, Libertarianism, Social Democracy, Communism, Libertarian Socialism.
luddites, anarcho primitivists, and environmentalists
Environmentalism/sustainability is pretty integrated in just about any left ideology.
that's not a real thing either. this used to imply leftist but now it just equals neoliberalism.
I don't think many communists would go out and protest the extinction of goblin sharks. environmentalist just does not always equal leftist.
OP, listen to the Slavoj here. Socialism is meaningless. We are for communism
I DIDN'T READ PAST THE SECOND LINE YOU GOTTA INCLUDE NAZBOL YOU NIGGER
there are so many different political positions and so many different combinations that he will never finish this shit tbh.
OP if you wanna become a full porky piece of shit through just do it democrat vs republican. boom.
I will never use your website through. fuck that.
OP you realize that Holla Forums will just go into that website and pretend to be leftist strawman and spook liberals into reaction/confirm slightly more honest Holla Forumsyps' beliefs?
We're gonna see some real shit on that app.
Alright, status update.
I managed to put it on leftover domain+hosting I don't use anymore and it works fine. Well, for 4 users I simulated it did.
Tomorrow I'll get a new domain and put it up. Bad news is, firefox on mobile renders it like crap (aside from being generally unoptimized, will have to make a separate pages for mobile version), so for now only desktop will work properly (and perhaps some non-firefox browser on big-size touchscreens).
When it's done I'll post it both here and on Holla Forums (probably 4/pol/ since most 8/pol/ users will fall into no-hostility category with each other).
As far as positions go, I will keep as I last posted. After the initial test, I'll remove the generally unused categories, and I imagine "liberalism" not "classical liberalism" and "green" will be one of them. After that I'll either purge some categories from the right as well to keep the balance, or add more of your subpositions.
That's about it. I expect it to be a laggy piece of shit once we get few dozen users. If people like it, I'll probably get dedicated server for it to keep it smooth.