What is up with the leftcoms in their crusade against cockshottism, including that stupidity in the labor voucher thread where some leftcom flag was saying labor vouchers don't abolish the commodity and any system in which workers have to do work is still capitalism - therefore FALC is the only true communism.
Sorry to break it to you, but Cockshott is not only aware of leftcom theory but references being influenced by it multiple times
im the leftcom who didn't supported labour vouchers.
i know shit about cuckshott, so make me a tl:dr about and maybe i can explain why is he wrong
no surprise there, you third wordlists are just as retarded as usual
nice try, he disagrees with anti imperialism as a strategy and says neocolonialism theory was revisionism by Khrushchev.
daily reminder that leftcoms are the most well read people on this board
You chode, as cockshott explains in that picture, most of the 19th century utopian socialists, as well as marx himself, as well as the dutch leftcoms all advocated labor vouchers. So explaining why they are wrong is basically explaining why marx was wrong
This "Leftcoms are well read" meme needs to die. Having the flair doesn't make you an intellectual, it makes you at best a blowhard and at worst barely better than a smashie
I mean the fat that he said "standed" should be an immediate giveaway
see how marx said private property should be abolished in order to make the labour-voucher system work. to change a currency for labour vouchers won't change the relations of productions of capitalism. the only way the mode of production can change is by automation of work, since this, and no other thing can develope the contradictions between forces of production and relation of productions.
i've explained this in the other thread, of how if automation isn't high enough, your utopian labour notes system will decay into capitalism again.
other leftcoms pitch in, is this actually what leftcoms believe or is this kid fucking retarded or is he trolling to make leftcoms look bad?
All leftcoms are retarded. They might leave out the automation meme but it's the same argument
But the dutch leftcoms in the 30s advocated labor tokens
Considering this was also equivalent to crude communism in his earlier works, no it doesn't require the end of private property. It just requires the universalization of private property and the end to the anarchy of production
It's really only the Italian leftcoms and bordigists who are the real autists. Unfortunately they are also the most popular thanks to all the shitty memes
Not the called-out leftcom but communism (to us) isn't a matter of consciousness nor management nor a mode of production. I'm not sure where I stand on labor vouchers but I'm not going to suck cockshott (even though I'm sympathetic to cyber-syndicalist user) until there is some tangible form of existing automated planned economy owned by workers and such standing right in front of me.
Chiming in from Dauve, not BTFO but a critique
servant: it rules over production. The shop floor would soon lose control over its elected supervisors, and democratically designated co-organisers would act as bosses. The system of councils would survive as an illusion, and workers’ management result in capitalism, or rather … capitalism would never have disappeared. We can’t have it both ways: either we keep the foundation of value, or we dispense with it. The circle can’t be squared.
sorry if broken greentext
So you are like the philosopher who vowed never to get in the water until he has learned how to swim. Basically saying that the labor voucher system doesn't completely abolish the law of value. Which we agree with, a labor voucher system still partially has the law of value.
Do you agree with the original leftcoms argument that you need full automation or close to it, to achieve communism?
second of all this is completely wrong: labour time is a social average under capitalism because there are multiple firms competing to reduce labor costs and so there is a process of social averaging (the SNLT) under socialism there is a monopoly and one one producer so the integrated labor time is directly computed using sparse matrix algorithm
We need more bans for shitposting. The first couple of replies from the person using the leftcom h&s are simply rage-inducing and corrosive to the intellectual development of this board.
This seems to be an intentional attempt at making LeftComs look bad.
Why would a LeftCom save a Wolff-Costanza image?
This is the intended result these shitposters are aiming for; smearing left-communism as a whole
A confused socialist glimpses through the facade
Relevantly - this highlights a huge problem within the current Holla Forums sphere: the inability to delineate between the DIFFERENT SCHOOLS OF LEFT-COMMUNISM. THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME. THERE ARE VARIOUS DIFFERENT CURRENTS WITHIN LEFTCOM, RESULTING IN SEVERAL DISTINCT SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT.
What most seem to hate, reasonably, is Bordigism. The thing is Bordigism makes up a fifth of left-com theories. CouncilCom is vastly different, so is the contemporary post-autonomist, semi-anarchist 'communization theory'.
Basically Holla Forums IT'S TIME TO GET OUR SHIT TOGETHER
Oh jesus christ, will you please just take off that flag until you've actually read something, you utter fucking imbecile. Whether or not you agree with labour vouchers (and there certainly are leftcoms that reject them), it's a fact that marx thought there would be a lower phase of communism that would probably utilise them.
WTF is this retarded vulgar determinism, we have had the capacity to abolish capitalism for a long time now, it's not a matter of more automation.
And will you please proof read your posts? They're nigh unreadable and make you sound like a fucking five year old.
Either a retarded kid or a troll, his posts are ancap-annil tier.
We need more leftcom flags than simply one. I mean we have one for the fucking soumi bare :DDD so why the fuck shouldn't we be able to delineate between armchair despotism, councilcoms, détourners, autonomists and CT?
LeftComs are fucking hopeless, I wouldn't waste my time with them if I were you
Oh boy, underlying this must be some kind of epic mechanistic materialism, geared to further prove how right you are in your passivity.
Last I checked you yugofags are against the labour vouchers and cybernetic planning that Cockshott proposes, because you cunts actually advocate money and markets.
ok i think its time to anchor this thread as it has simply become a shit flinging match. everybody sage plz
Good to see you've stopped pretending to be a leftcom. If you wish to raise the quality of the board further feel free to stick your head into an oven.
I'm not. And Cockshott even advocates Market Socialism as a transitional system to his own.
not the retarded "leftcom", but ok
yes, theres an interview where he says coops are used as a transitional phase to cybernetic economics. Its a bit of a leap to call him a marc soc just by that though, dont marc socs want marc soc as an end stage in and of itself?
At this point, you might as well suggest capitalism as a transitional system as well, and become a reformist.
I never called him MarcSoc and No lmao
If you actually believe one of the most radical socio-economic changes in perhaps the history of mankind is actually possible overnight then you're dumb
I don't believe that. You, however, think it is possible to go from capitalism with cooperatives into communism, without any revolution.
Your flag says otherwise.
On the fence about him. Can't say shit against his empirical work on LTV predictions, but his politics, both in the past and present, make me want to just toss the rest in the trash tbh. I gotta do some stuff rn but if you want I'll be back in a bit with a longer critique.
"overnight" is a meme invented by people who want to strawman anarchism. It is based on saying that anarchists don't want to organise to repress the bourgeoisie and fight the reaction. This is, according to ACTUAL ANARCHIST THEORY, not true. Perpetuating this meme is intelectually dishonest.
feels bad man, this board is turning dumber everyday
I voted no!
No it isn't, it's based on the retarded idea that you can actively abolish the state. Which even Marx said wasn't possible.
Except there are actual anarchists who argue that Kekalonia was full communism or the "closest we got there."
If it makes you feel any better I didn't vote because I don't bother with polls, cockschott threads, or labor voucher threads.
None of this labour voucher bullshit
not an arguement
Marx supports labour vouchers.
under comcap labour vouchers will be the new currency.
why would u bump this
labourvouchers arent a currency
I don't support labor vouchers, would rather have post-keynesian market socialism :^)
exchange of goods without circulation yes one end currency.
theres no exchange value because you can't trade commodities for more LV, only lv -> commodities then they're destroyed.
shut up you we want totalitarian capitalism
no exchange value then how do you know how many to give out LOL
The amount of time it took to produce them.
so there is value in labor LOL
Hey cocksuckshott comrades! I'm actually reading through TaNS.
IMO this thread has made it clear that we need a pic describing the basic differences b/w moneys and labor vouchers. Can one of you do it or should I?
So far the Cockshott memes were restricted to the "pointy face: read book" template. It is high time that you made a comparison pic, ok?
a sympathetic Leninist (who is rather pissed about the authors direct democracy fagging in later chapters)
Also why do you hate classlessness?
Oh My LAAAAAWWWDD!!!
as much as i hate leftcoms that kid probably wasnt even a leftcom more like a retard or shitposter, he seemed to think leftcom = FALC or something
Not good enuf.
Because I'm a Marxist-Leninist-Cockshottist
srsly, are u gonna maek it, you gaglord?
Kinda busy atm should be back in about 4 hours. Got real life obligations.