are labour vouchers useful?
are labour vouchers useful?
the votes are in!
labour vouchers are shit tbh
they should just change your flag to a literal snowflake icon
sorry dude the thread is ended and the votes've been tallied. labor vouchers won
How much labor vouchers does a trip to Siberia cost?
the exact same as it costs now, because labour vouchers are just money.
WRONG, all trips to Siberia are subsidised by The State.
yes, but you can still calculate how much does it costs.
how much does the VPN you used to rig the poll cost, in labor vouchers?
probably more than to fuck yo mama
labor vouchers abolish the commodity form, dunno why leftcoms dont like them
no they don't, production for exchange still exist under labour vouchers.
in fact, labour vouchers couldn't work at all since transferability will spontaneously emerge if automation of work isn't high enough to abolish law of value, and if it is, no market would be needed at all.
labour vouchers are just utopian memes.
in order to be a commodity a thing needs to have an exchange value, i.e. the ratio at which you exchange it with other goods. Under a labor voucher system theres no interchangeability since you cant exchange commodities for other commodities, or commodities for vouchers. only vouchers -> commodities. Therefore LVs do abolish the commodity form.
citation needed. If everybody's labor voucher is tied to them as a person, how can transferability 'emerge'? I mean, someone can steal my account information just like my credit card can be stolen under capitalism, but that wont be the norm. Every labor voucher account/card will have security measures obviously like 2 factor authentication and minimum 12 character alphanumeric PINs.
Labour voucher scheme is not a market because it has no circuit of capital M-C-M', read marx. Labour voucher 'market' is a 'simulacrum' market or artificial market, it is not technically a market in the Marxist sense, nor are labor vouchers currency because you cant invest or reinvest them into a circuit of capital and extract surplus value. They are only directly convertible (one way) into goods and services, they are simply a method of allocating each person a share of the social surplus.
in order to get the vouchers in the first place you need to work, and since work is what makes commodities, commodities, you can tell it's indistinguishable from capitalism in that way (commodities are still exchanged by commodities).
it's all about automation; transferability will emerge simply because to accumulate labour vouchers will simply increase the wealth of the ones who accumulate them.
this will eventually create a ruling class, and a working class which sees the benefits of licking the boots of the ruling class. obviously there will be workers who won't be beneficiated from this. but it doesn't matter because the bootlickers will be spreaded homogeneously enough to keep the masses subjugated.
now you could argue that this scenario couldn't happen because people will simply lynch the parasites who accumulate labour vouchers.
but that would only be the case if people didn't see more revenueable to lick the ruling class boots as to prevent the labour voucher system from decaying, that's why a labour voucher system will only be possible once we got levels of automation of work high enough……………or wouldn't it?
the answer to the second question is probably not, because if we get rid of scarcity, it will mean that there wouldnt be necessary to have market systems (i argumented why labour vouchers are markets above) at all.
you could force people to use labour vouchers as well as to force them not to accumulate them (this can be currently achieved, with cripto currency-like mechanisms), in a totalitarian, barracks-war-communism, not caring if the automation of work is high enough to abolish law of value, but it would only mean inefficiences.
who knows, maybe this kind of scenario really IS better than current capitalism, but im not sure.
In order for humanity to consume stuff, humans need to produce, therefor any social order where humans produce things is capitalism.
Obv. the labour vouchers will have an expiry date, you can't just horde them forever, long after the date that the commodities you produced with that labor have rotted away or been consumed. So there will be a natural cap on saving.
To quote marx from Critique of the Gotha programme:
Human beings work under any system, by that logic the only true communism is FALC, if humans do any work its by definition capitalism!
By saying work you are being somewhat disingenous, first of all you do not necessarily have to 'work' to get the labor vouchers as there we be some level of redistribution for people who cant or wont work, the non producing part of the population such as the elderly, students, disabled etc. As well as public services like health, etc. Conceivably this could include even things like housing, etc. What portion of labor would be devoted to social spending and what to private consumption is a matter to be decided democratically.
Its not labor which is the commodity, but labor POWER, the ability to perform work, the idea that under capitalism, labors use-value is its ability to produce more value than it costs to hire it, ie. exploitation where surplus value comes from. Under an LV system the price of each commodity will be exactly equal to the labor time needed to produce it. Labor is therefore not treated as a commodity in the same way it is under capitalism.
Some retarded beaner slut at the barber shop: I'm sorry, but I can't give you a free haircut for this. The gift-voucher has expired. See the date?
Me, leftcom intellectual: Voucher transferability will spontaneously emerge if automation of work isn't high enough to abolish law of value. This will eventually create a ruling class, and a working class which sees the benefits of licking the boots of the ruling class. Obviously there will be workers who won't be beneficiated from this; but it doesn't matter because the bootlickers will be spreaded homogeneously enough to keep the masses subjugated. You could force people to use vouchers as well as to force them not to accumulate them (this can be currently achieved, with cripto currency-like mechanisms), in a totalitarian, barracks-war-communism.
There 👏 Will 👏Never 👏be👏Post👏SCARCITY.👏
This whole FALC meme needs to die, the planet has finite natural resources and if or perhaps especially if we're going to have a high automated society, we're going to need to meter natural resources very very closely for environmental purposes not to mention recycle way better. If instead of labor vouchers you have a council decide, or the cookie algorithm or w.e it doesn't matter, there has to be some sort of method of rationing. We can't just allowed people to walk into the store and take any shit they want, this is incredibly naive to think we are even 50 years in range of achieving such a thing, even with unlimited natural resources, which we don't have.
It's already here though
not for the whole planet, maybe for first world countries. There isn't enough petroleum for all 8 billion people on planet earth to drive a car. These are laws of geology. Plus post scarcity doesn't just imply we have enough to eat, the guy was talking about how any system which isnt full automation where we dont have to work at all is not muh true socialism
jacque fresco was wrong, deal with it
i had descrived that scenario also:
labour vouchers are utopian ideas per se; since you have to trust the system in order to keep it working.
in order to transform this dependence from trust to a dependence from conveinence, you have to get rid of scarcity.
obviously, i do refer to the worst scenario when people hate to work and in order to abolish law of value full or nearly full automation of work is needed, probably this isn't the case but it's a good argument why labour vouchers, if implemented, will only be a transitional, and totally prescindible step.
I will take "What is fiat money" for 100 dollars.
Of course, the consumption-token system doesn't work by itself. Basically, you come across as a kid who has just figured out that the proposed things aren't really things, but changes in social relations, and now you complain about that "flaw". But there is no other way, there is no way of getting back to a time of social institutions as self-contained and self-sufficient things, because that era never even existed in the world outside of delusional minds.
In general, people have to have some basic trust in each other to get socialism working and to keep it working. Saying that's too utopian means giving up.
transferable, accumulable and circulating commodities are endemic of those modes of production in which there are private property.
since private property will only be abolished once you got absolute automation. labour vouchers could only spontaneously work well in a short, intermediate stage between capitalism and full automated communism.
this theorycal gap is where labour vouchers, co-operative mutualism, and other owen-like utopian ideas can be achieved.
now probably this gap is a little larger due to the indifference of people about whether labour vouchers are or aren't the most efficient way to spread wealth across the populaiton.
or maybe it's even shorter or non-existent, if the only way to abolish law of value was to achieve absolute automation of work. who knows…
what we know for sure is that labour vouchers must be studied a little more than to read bakunin and considering them as an universal panacea.
You need to lose that flag, you don't seem to understand what it signifies.
That's not what utopian means.
Scarcity =/= finite resources you fucking mongoloid.
For shame, nigga:
>This circumstance, then, arises from the material character of the particular labour-process, not from its social form. In the case of socialised production the money-capital is eliminated. Society distributes labour-power and means of production to the different branches of production. The producers may, for all it matters, receive paper vouchers entitling them to withdraw from the social supplies of consumer goods a quantity corresponding to their labour-time. These vouchers are not money. They do not circulate.
that's not my argument fellow bordigist, im stating labour vouchers will decay into money and wouldn't work unless we reach high automation levels.
I'd like a maybe so I didn't vote, but mostly a no
seconded, its basically all it is, generic communist with no real beliefs but wants to sound like are some sort of rare breed. The SJW of the radical left
I think we just found the board first unironic FALC adherent
when did bordiga say FALC is the only true communism?
Thats exactly was scarcity is, finiteness. Theres finite labor, finite natural resources, and finite amount of carbon emissions
we talk about practical scenarios. fuck off
aren't these shirts thousands of dollars or something ?
Any engineer knows this is horseshit, do you have any idea how complicated something like a self driving car is? Its an open theoretical question if we can even have full automation EVER much less within < 30 years. Labor vouchers are practical now with current technology
is this parody? being a 'generic' communism, i.e. not a special snowflake tendency is now 'having no beliefs'??? You've spent way too much time on here if you think communism is a generic belief compared to like 90% of normies out there
You seem very poorly informed for a "bordigist". You know FALC is a meme right? It doesn't have anything to do leftcom theory at all.
automation of work isn't a meme at all.
and it's true when i say we have to get rid of post-scarcity in order to abolish law of value, that's like an axiom.