Anarcho-Primitivists

While I'll starve if I don't shop at the supermarket, you don't need to spend your free time shitposting to continue to exist, and by the logic of the anarchoprimitivists you would have a richer and more fulfilling life if you didn't ever stare at screens for leisure.

I don't hate you personally, I disagree with your opinions because I like internet porn, toilet paper and surgical anasthesia. We've been over this before.

I prefer what comes comes out of capitalist stores to nothing. Anprims seem to prefer "nothing" to "any tech" in the question of tech, so I don't see why they use it if they hate it.

The idea is that in an anprim world you wouldn't need to use website to socialize because you would be a part of a tribe without all the alienation of the modern world. In the current setting people usually don't have a close knit group of people like that, so they need internet.
A lot of primitivists disagree about stuff like this and its a pretty broad category of ideas reaching from reactionary and misanthropic to guys like zerzan that are very utopian and don't have any of the hate for humanity. Ted K didn't think that the primitive world was "better" in many ways to our current one, he just thought that humanity would have to go back to that or they would die off. In fact if you read his critique of anprims he brings up a lot of the ways that primitive life would be shitty.

I need insulin or I'll die

In a hunter-gatherer society, you would have never gotten diabetes in the first place.

Read Kaczynski.

That's a very bad misinterpretation. He absolutely did think primitive life was better, just not perfect or utopian.

Your body's need for insulin is likely a result of modern society fucking it up in the first place.

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yes i am type 1.

it is genetic. I'm fit, active, and eat a healthy diet.

It being genetic doesn't change what I said. Diabetes and other autoimmune disorders were effectively non-existent in pre-modern times, and it's not because they all just immediately died.

the dead labor keeps pilling on and on. not even the ruling class has any real control over what's happening anymore. the architects of the spectacle have locked themselves at the center of a prison of their own making. technocapital has entered runaway.

I have read an awful lot of Ted's work, and I used to agree with him until I got to thinking about what exactly "the system" he refers to is, and concluding that it's just a buzzword for capitalism.

Because civilization is a net positive to society.

Alright
So you (anarcho socialist) disagree with him because you perceive him as being anti-capitalist? What?

i agree. technology makes the world better

because you are the true face of socialism

No, he’d die.

No it is.

I disagree with him because I think that while technological advancement isn't good for the working class under capitalism, it doesn't have the same problems under socialism.

It doesn't stop you from dying at 20 from drinking untreated water. When I've gone on long hiking trips in New Mexico, like one I took for 10 days a few weeks back, you need to purify all the water you drink or you'll get this illness called "Giardia". Basically, you drink water that has traces of animal shit, and a few weeks later you get explosive diarrhea. No thanks, anprims.

i have nothing against anprims, in the democratic confederalist future they can have an agrarian zone where they live as tribes, as long as they dont force it on the rest of us. Keep them contained in their monkey zone

You're just an accelerationist anprim.

Yes – childhood diabetes (its former name, before Americans started blowing up like balloons) tended to kill people before going through puberty

If you think I should die because you're just opposed to "technology", then…

A lot of socialists love technology. It can free the worker. Hell, condoms + birth control pills, together with washing machines, etc have probably done more for women's liberation than anything else.

Yea I really want explosive diarrhea instead of becoming a god-like cyborg, how did you guess?

I think that anprim thinkers have a lot of good points and thoughts about technology and civilization, especially kaczynski.
But most people arent going to be interested in returning to a primitive way of life and dying at the age of 20 from polio.
Another thing is that i feel like a lot of anprims romanticize the idea of tribal and primitive life like they weren't on the verge of death all the time and fighting other tribes for resources, or that woman werent basically treated like garbage in this sort of lifestyle.

Another thing is that a lot of anprims seem like to take it to a retarded extreme, like they literally want to return to caveman times, get rid of language even, and start using grunts and noises.

Also

The working class will only ever get a sliver of the potential benefits of new inventions, but will be faced with the full brunt of newly developed repressive methods under capitalism.

That's part of the idea of socialism: giving the benefits of technology to the masses. The solution isn't going backwards, to early death by the flu, but towards the future and ending capitalism.

The amount of diseases back then were minuscule compared to the amount now. Diabetes did not exist in prehistoric times.

Technology is used by the state to monitor and track people, technology warps the human condition.
My personal anecdote something that older people might remember is that pre smartphones people actually talked to each other. Now everyone texts and pretends to texts instead of interact.
If there is one thing to take from the anprims that is a positive its their criticism and analysis of technology. And the realization that it is not always a positive outcome

Then why was the life expectancy lower?

proofs?

The vast majority of hunter-gatherers lived to see their 60s and even beyond that. They were very healthy.

Actually, the Bible contends that they often lived for hundreds of years.

They still had cancer back then. It's not like cancer is some new result of modern society. It's just that viral disease isn't the biggest problem anymore.

Hell no. Agriculture started the downhill trend. I am deeply opposed to farming. The world is overpopulated because of it. (to me, the max amount of humans that should be living on the earth at any one time should be around 20 million)

Because, as far as I can see, An-primitism fixes nothing. It does nothing for nobody. I see it as a waste of time. The only possible benifit would be wiping people off this earth. I'd have to be sold on some pretty edgy stuff too see that in a fully positive light. I can empathize with wanting to simplify things though.

I'm calling bullshit.

As I said, this has been proven to be false.

This wasn't the norm. It did, of course, happen though.

Women were the best off under hunter-gatherer societies. They didn't have to do anything except raise children. There would have been no reason for them to be oppressed.

Cavemen never existed, I thought that was common knowledge by now.

Humans never did this.

B-but they used technology to get those results so they're clearly biased against primitive peoples!

This was also true of Colonial times in America, you know, and the norm for most of human history. Wives up until modern medicine had a ton of kids with the expectation that only half of them would survive disease to reach adulthood. The ones who made it usually had some degree of immunity from the local stuff but if you're an Aztec and the Spaniards come in with a whole new slate of germs you haven't immunized for yet you're fucked.

1600 BC is the earliest they mentioned though, and that was thousands of years after agriculture was invented. The effective rate of cancer among tribal people is 0, I would imagine. WHERE would they get it from?

That is accounting for all of the history of humans being hunter-gatherers. From generation to generation, a tribe eventually learns what causes disease and what doesn't. Read about some of the current hunter-gatherer tribes still around. They have the system down to a pat. They KNOW which plant or animal will be harmful to them after a while. Yeah, you could say it's a trial and error process, but isn't everything?

Good lord, you're worse than the social darwinists!

Primitivism pretty much solves mental disorders/illnesses. No one was depressed or bi-polar back then.

I'm not sure if it works that way, buddy

K what if we had a containment island for you guys, would you move there and leave everyone else the fuck alone?

This is clearly a likely situation.

Yes.

a tropical gulag?

polite sage since I wrote post # below. I agree with ancom user. Just sounds like lack of identification to me.

Only problem is that all the folk knowledge in the world doesn't give you any insight into germ theory or how to actually prevent disease. That would require modern medicine. And so, the fact is, most people until vaccines were invented had to live with 50% of their kids dying from minor diseases.

*tips bearskin cap*

I'm so fucking mad I didn't write that. I wanted to include some sort of fedora.

blog.berrymanconsulting.com/2015/06/02/hunter-gatherers-died-of-cancer-too/

Its not really a gulag because they can leave and rejoin civilization anytime they feel like their done with their camping trip

Cuz you wanna take away our smartphones and toilet paper and replace them with spears and leaves.

Because it's absurd and incoherent. What defines humans is our language and tool use. Anarcho-Primitivists should be called Anarcho-Lobotomists because they want to somehow make every individual human dumb enough that they can't advance technologically, which is what humans do.

Just be an anti-natalist or VHEMT instead. All the pretty aminals are naturally primitive and will let the Earth replenish itself.

I'm NEVER going to have children, that's for sure. Never would adopt either.

All life on Earth is cancer. Embrace anti-terrestrialism.

Because you are just the mirror image of progressivism. Civilization is bad, yes, and technology isn't a manifestation of progress but of power relations but there is no authentic harmonious existence, regardless of how far in the past you look, this search for a time before the fall is proto-fascist, and it is no coincidence fascism and primitivism have been so intertwined historically.

Because you're closeted anti-humanists that just want an excuse to destroy civilization and kill people in the name of muh return to nature.

If only you realized a more efficient way to annihilate humanity is by going full accelerationist.

Because I feel like I could become one

I bought Zerzan and Kacinski. Haven't read em yet but they seem good.

This is partly true, yes. I prioritize animal's rights over my and other human's rights. If I were stranded somewhere, I'd rather starve than hunt for food.

That's occurred to me a lot too, but I think it's more than that. Maybe under Communism technology would've behave the way he described, but the biggest point he made for me was the fact that whenever technology is introduced, it goes from optional and convenient it mandatory, with everyone being built like that's the default.

Yes, if you got diabetes in the first place you'd die, but diabetes only become common enough to be a problem in the modern area.

Do you think fresh water somehow had less animal shit in the past? People didn't have filters for most of human history and they didn't need it, because they had a strong enough immune system and a resistance to stuff like giardia where they could and did drink from streams and rivers just fine. Diseases from untreated water in the third world comes from drinking stagnant water because they don't have access to proper sources.

This is such a shitty meme. The life expectancy for a hunter-gatherer beyond childhood was usually in the 60s, with most of them dying from unnatural causes. Incredibly virulent and deadly diseases like polio weren't around, because diseases like that usually killed everyone in a tribe off before they could spread it to other tribes in the rare event that they caught it, and secondly because diseases like that are from domesticated animals living with humans, and simply didn't exist in any major way pre-civilization.
That's another shitty meme.
The way women were treated was incredibly variable, but generally they were treated significantly better than the following millennia.

Because of childhood and childbirth deaths.

If you don't see technology and civilization as a problem, then yes, it doesn't fix anything. That's why you should read Kaczynski.

Are you pretending for some reason that prehistoric humans lived alone in nuclear families?

Hunting is quite archaic tho? Isn't the return to a hunter gatherer lifestyle a huge part of Anprim?

I'm talking in present terms. I'd be willing to just die. I am a part of the problem of overpopulation. Hunting was fine in primitive times as humans were not the apex predator in all arenas as they are now.

i've always been anprim when I think about it. zerzan just helped me on theory.

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It's funny that a transhumanist says that when they're literally want to go beyond humanity while not caring what technology does to them in the meantime.

How quite spooky, and more fitting of an urban vegan than a primitivist.

Another shitty meme.

resources are finite and nonfungible bro. we're nothing more than an algal bloom that will suffocate the pond

An absurd universe deserves an absurd response. That's why I profoundly regret every moment I don't spend on shameless self-deception and hedonism.

lol that thing about wanting to go beyond humanity is just bs we use to pander to normies. Our true goal is to destroy it.

When resources cannot be spread evenly among the entire population, then you have overpopulation. That's what we have now.

If the entire population of the earth lived like middle class America does, then there would need to be 4 Earths to sustain it.

On the other hand our energy use is so unbelievably retardedly wasteful (seriously you won't believe how much energy we waste in moronic ways) that the entire planet could live an "American" lifestyle at 1/25th the cost if the energy were utilized efficiently.

Fuck, why do so many other transhumanists have to be insufferable, edgy cunts? I just want to be an immortal, god-like cyborg. Machines are here to serve and augment me and my willpower (I'm Egoist), not to destroy it and replace it with fucking Wall-E.

Just for clarification, I'm the user who wrote all the transhumanist posts ITT above these two. Don't mix us up.

I like primitive living. I once spent 11 weeks living in the desert cooking on fires I made with a bow drill set. It was a good experience. However, I also like computers and running water, and would like to live in a world where we can have both wilderness and civilization existing harmoniously.

Now this I can get behind.

there's nothing particularly special about you, you will die in the upcoming technocapitalist upheaval like everyone else fam

Alright then, keep fapping to the Terminator movies all you want, not like it's gonna change reality. You sure you don't want to switch to unironic Posadism, or would that leave too many survivors for your taste?

Joke's on you I'm also a Posadist, from the 22nd century no less

So do you or do you not want to be a hunter gather.

I’m fine with moderate types of primitivism where there’s a return to tribalism and we get to keep technology.

Required to form 50943571 treaties
Inability to scale up/delegate

Well, let's see, we can go extinct in a few hundred thousand years or exist for potentially billions upon billions of years taking into account low energy virtual life subsisting on black hole radiation beyond the entropic threshold, huh, gets my cortex in a vortex.

General disrespect for art and even philosophy as a "surrogate activity" is what got me generally peeved, never forget that when Art and Philosophy are deemed as "useless" fascism is soon to follow. Also most of them are extremely unrealistic with their goals and dont understand how the only thing protecting their little communities (think the Hutterite's) are only protected by the larger more technologically advanced countries that protect them from the warlords and general sociopaths that excel in these environments and dont give a shit about the environment at all.

Because your philosophy is incoherent, misanthropic, reactionary lifestylist garbage.

Not an anprim but I kinda wish I could smoke weed with Fredy Perlman tbh, we would be all like "dude, the Leviathan lmao"

libcom.org/library/toward-savagery-recent-developments-eco-extremist-thought-mexico-abe-cabrera

Relevant

Because regular green anarchists can't use the flag anymore.

I'm not sure if misanthropic is the best word to describe Zerzan's thought tbhwyfam. I've been listening to his radio show, and he tends to condemn nihilistic violence. He seems to like humans enough to want to improve their lives (now whether or not one agrees with his method is another story).

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why not just throw em in Siberia, anprims get rid of evil civilisation and civilisation gets rid of some retards
don't even need to build a gulag for them

on that note, I unironically prefer nazis to anprims. Peak idealism.

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The consequences of primitivism are definitely misanthropic.

Your way of life goes against my interest and is unable to support the amount of people currently alive, thus neccecitating genocide.

Communists tend to focus on future.

Top fucking kek. The ancient humans would have eaten YOU.

If hunter gatherers were so smart, why weren't they anprims? They're responsible for every technology we have.

I don't want to die of influenza and I don't fetishist the past

You don't necessarily have to use tech.

In fact, an anarcho-prim lifestyle may be easier to achieve than most ideologies from within capitalism. You could make it a goal to make enough money to buy some tract of wild land in the midwest, and then move there and shirk technology. Like Kaczynski, I guess. I think he did that anyways, didn't he live in a cabin somewhere?

But Ted isn't full anprim. He just didn't like the industrial economy's control of people. Either way, you could also possibly be a hobo, but I don't know how anprims feel about that.

Do anprims believe in writing, or are we going to have to rely on an oral history of the evils of civilization to keep us from falling for the agriculture meme?

Jesus Christ having an oral history for all the stupid meme shit would be insufferable

If technology diminishes the wellbeing of humans, and is possibly ultimately unsustainable, creating a collapse that will kill even more, then to not eliminate technology ASAP because you put it above the interest of humanity is in itself misanthropic.

anprims the only anarchists that isnt autistic

do you have his other book as well?

Here you go m8

And his newest one

thank you so much, i read the first book and have been wanting to read the other

Yugoflag is becoming the worst poster.