So, for the last six months I have been reading you guys and I have come to understand communism/radical leftism better.
I still mostly disagree with your points but I now understand your fundamental arguments regarding means of production (even though I disagree philosophically).
None the less, if you can create a prototype of a societies that work which are objectively better to live in than any other white/European capitalist/social democratic country based on your ideology I would have no problems with it and maybe I would even try to move there.
So far, from a historical perspective, there has not been a single example of such a society. Whenever communism has tried to be implemented it has made the situation in the country, arguably, worse and progress has generally halted.
So can you give me a prototype built on your ideology that is superior compared to your average white capitalist society?
Give me a proto type
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sickening
Nah, life in Cuba is absolute shit compared to any other capitalist society. Cuba's great health care is a leftist meme.
lmao stop being butthurt about losing the space race, burger.
Looks like you need to go to Cuba to get your autism diagnosed.
So what do you think Russia was like before the revolution?
That's because the bourgoisie make every effort to topple and fuck with them.
Only places like Cuba that the CIA "promised" to leave alone are examples of communism that hasn't been littered with capitalist meddling.
Even North Korea is about to go down, American companies simply can't stand the fact that they're not allowed to expand everywhere in the world.
Places that would have actually been succesfully, like the Paris Commune, Revolutionary Catalonia, and even the Soviet Union (post-WWII) probably would have done just fine if they were simply left alone.
every time.
Why? I can just go to google and look at shitty pictures of slums.
Actually a better place to live in
Well eventually you will make it and I will look forward to come live in your society, I believe in you buddy :-)
What are you talking about? Most countries with proletariat revolutions always did better than what they were previously. For Christmas sake Russia went from a 3rd world shithole to a world power.
nah it became worse
Auto correct, please.
source this claim or begone
things that totally happened
read Zizek, faggot. The only utopians alive today are the Fukuyamaists who believe capitalist liberal democracy is the end of history. Socialism is a perfectly rational response to current material conditions. First of all, production-for-use instead of production-for-exchange could rein in the issue of climate change. We need to do some serious damage control, and quickly, if we hope to survive the impending climate crisis. Secondly, the gross income inequality and other inherent crises of capitalism keep inviting revivals of fascism. Liberals are too spooked to fight for themselves. Commies are ideologically and practically equipped to fight fascists. Communists have a proven record of that, of course. And thirdly, again read Zizek, capitalism will have a very difficult time trying to generate revenues from intellectual property rights. The farther we develop technology and the more the "means of production" can be duplicated and owned on an individual basis, it's all the more reason to destroy capitalism as it is becoming entirely superfluous. And don't forget automation in this scenario. How long will workers put up with bullshit jobs and busy work until they realize they can have a socialized economy with significantly fewer hours and higher standards of living? Marx was right. Capitalism's development is creating the conditions for communism. All we have to do is take it.
As he says in Chapter 31 of Capital, Vol. I:
So much bullshit.
so going from 20 percent literacy to 99 percent literacy is doing worse? Dramatically lowering the homeless rate is doing worse? Becoming an industrialized country projected to get better and better is doing worse? Are you a brainlet or just a liar?
how
A pointless, low effort shitpost. Back up your statements or don't make them. I'm not impressed.
Cool bro! I can do the same with Skid Row in LA, The Tenderloin in San Fran, Detroit Slums and more!
"yes, only in socialist countries do people live in slums. over in capitalist brazil people live in- oh… well, over in capitalist chile people live in- oh!… wel, over in capitalist mexico people li- oh!… oh look at this! goodness me! biggest slums in the world, well I never."
So you can't give me a prototype
That is called technological advancement
Filled with blacks/Hispanics. I asked for white capitalist/commie societies
we can't do it without help. contrary to what leftcoms believe, the revolution needs organization. voting democrat every year doesn't help
latino cuba is doing better than white america
Ok then, when you and your group of guys have implemented your perfect society and it is greater/better to live in than capitalism ever is then I am converted…. Doubt it is going to happen.
You've got the wrong shitposting flag famalam.
that's not how it fucking works though. if you're supporting things like the CIA and capitalism while "waiting for it to happen", you're a complete hypocrite. it's like having an abortion over and over again and "waiting for a healthy child to come out"
lol no
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Not a nazi, but you have to take account for racial differences and economic productivity.
So I guess it didn't get worse then since things improved and progressed.
Yeah in light of technological advancement, not because of the system
Ok so what you're saying is that we can't have a prototype(a world revolution), we just have to go for it or the boogieman/bourgeoisie is going to stop it. Well dude, I like to see stuff work before I try it.
they would be way better off as America's economic colony, duh. lrn2praxeology.
babby's first historical materialism, tbqh
So they can read, kind of worthless attribute in itself. Can't compete with capitalism in wealth and general well being though. Why the fuck are you posting a link to infant mortality rate?
yes
Almost all third world countries are capitalist, m8. You think places like Somalia, India or Honduras are socialist societies?
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Because Cuba has a lower child mortality rate than the United States and many other capitalist countries. Did you forget to read the page?
Meaningless statistic since it can't measure things like access to public resources, income disparity, or general well being.
ok cool, still shittier than USA though based on general economic principles(gdp per capita and HDI)
no it is not
Cuz infant mortality rates are a good indicator of how functioning a society is. Imagine being born with so little opportunity in life that you die before your 2nd birthday. Talk bout societal inequality…
Well I guess that means Qatar is one of the best places to live on the planet.
Some of my counter arguments are quite shitty here, I will admit but remember it is one porky vs 10+ commies. So I don't really have the time to find sources or create long lasting arguments.
Ah, the old "capitalism *can* work, but they're inferior so who cares" argument.
Nope. Probably the Scandinavia
Yeah, sure, doesn't really make sense if the country you're growing up in is beyond shit
No there is a high correlation between race and economic output
and capitalism/mixed economies work quite well ie Scandinavia
why do you think Scandinavia is so superior?
wrong flag
9/10 bait user, have a (you).
Holla Forums the race issue is, if I may echo some liberal here, settled. But that doesn't really matter because, hey everyone is going to own their own labour in a commie economy which means Asians and white will be the demographic that do relatively better than the other races.
No seriously dude, why? I thought you guys were going to be quite open minded and brush the race issue of but I was obviously mistaken. and kinda disappointed. Because it won't damage your economic ideology that much unlike a liberal world view.
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Nope what I am saying is production is the basis for a society and in the light of this IMR is quite irrelevant in comparison
mhm
why should I work to achieve your system when I have little to no faith in it?
None cares here for race, you idiot. It's irrelevant to the discourse.
If you look at the tread it is quite important
>>>Holla Forums
You know people who're already starving to death don't make babies, right? Most of the starving kids you see in aid commercials are born *before* famines hit. Besides, all it takes for a baby to die in a place like say Liberia is a mosquito to bite it. It's called malaria and it's a bitch.
At what point can we look at people like you and call you racist without being labelled "suhjuhwuhs"? Shit, you use race to explain/justify the the fucked up state the world's in. People have been doing that for centuries.
And now in 2017:
alright then, we'll play that game
Please go live in Haiti and Cuba and then report back which one is more dystopic
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You should only if it's in your interest. It's not a question of morality, of good feelings, of looking pretty for the grills.
The simple truth is… a communist society is in the best interest of the working man, be it an underpaid sweatshop worker or an engineer in Silicon Valley.
You were the one constantly bringing it up. Doesn't that make one ponder.
if that's what you believe then I don't really care
tbqh they can all go die pimping themselves to the vulture capital while believing to be 10x meritocrats.
t. engineer not from the Sillicon Valley nor the US in general
Holy fuck these abominations trigger my autism
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Don't think engineers have a great life in Silicon Valley, but I do agree with you point.
t. student of engineering not from Sillicon Valley nor the US
When I was writing my post I had the smug Hacker News lolbertardians in mind, but I think you're right, I shouldn't be resesentful towards the wrong target. Thanks, actually.
How can people live in these places
nah this guy is a racist.
You're a coward
never argued for this
never argued for this, just said it is an important prediction
Your last argument is retarded
probably Haiti
Yup, because it is quite important to the conversation
I don't believe it you're the ones saying it and in the light of race realism this will be the end result
That is why I want a prototype. But hey, if you manage to create a society where I own my own produce(which I believe is the fundament of Marxism) and it is quite successful I am happy to join. I still find it quite naive so I am not going to strive for such a society.
God save the King gents
Come on, you're not a liberal are you? You're a radical leftist that is beyond such slurs as racist….
Since you say you already know the theory (or at least claims to do) I guess nothing else is left but memes.
i think the child mortality stats are made up by the government there, so they're pretty likely propaganda
You fail to understand that socialist societies have never and I really mean never ever been allowed to flourish, so they have never been able to develop fully. Capitalist imperialists have always down their utmost to crush them, always against the wishes of the general population. Nonetheless in every instance the implementation of socialism has drastically improved the material abundance afforded to the working population. Liberty is a different question, but you pretend like those countries had any kind of Liberty before, they did not.
Which is a capitalist country in the Carribean which had a similar economy to Cuba in the 50s, so, yeah. Comparing Cuba with 1st world countries on pure wealth is clearly unfair.
Obviously Cuba is materially poorer than the US but the US was vastly richer in the 50s too and Cuba has little to no natural resources to easily exploit.
Cuba:
1953 GDP per capita: $348
2015: $7,602
USA
1950: $9,573
2016: $57,466
In other words Cuba's GDP has grown faster than America's
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I refuse to believe someone who's been reading theory for months could make these meme arguments, you're lying.
Your basic fallacy is treating capitalism as a neutral force which could simply be superseded once we discover a superior way of doing things. This is, of course, ridiculous. Imagine if a country eliminated market production and instituted a planned economy right now, do you think they wouod be left alone to do their thing? They'd be fucked in every way possible by western imperialism and capital interests.
This would require either:
1.repressive regimes to eliminate subversion, leading to "totaliarianism", as well as massive resources to have military power
Or 2. Sufficient market reforms to appease opposition, which perverts the construction of socialism
As things stand, you already have a good enough blueprint. The USSR utilized a very primitive form of planning, yet it achieved growth on a frankly amazing scale. Simply contrast this with contemporary technology and material conditions, and the choice between planning and markets isn't a choice at all.