Nationalism is anti-socialist

this is why I don't support rojava or the Kurds

in fact if the states invades them they'll have more a chance to get a real workers revolution because of angry workers

Wow, an aphorism about how aphorisms are shit. Ironic. And you managed to make it vague and meaningless enough to superficially appear to justify your position.

its time to stop.

truly rigorous logic.

op was the vague, i just dismissed ops vagueness
i didnt use it as an argument, that came later

but what if the person in power in this country has sworn loyalty to the international proletariat ?

What exactly is vague about "defend class over country", again?

If a nation's bourgeoisie had actual loyalty to their proletariat, they would no longer exist as they would have already handed over power to the workers. Fucking MLs, I swear.

Don't fall for roach propaganda. Democratic Confederalism is about regional self-determination, and -organization.
Not to mention that they're magnitudes less nationalist than the goverment side.

There is zero good reason for a socialist to "love his country". Countries have never served the working class.

Don't see how this relates to my post in any way

What if a country did serve the working class? Would nationalism be okay then?

do you even understand what nationalism is ?

Impossible. The nation-state only benefits the bourgeoisie. It cannot and will never serve the working class.

Yes I do. What is your point?

so you make socialist country
and you proceed to shit all over its ideals
*claps*

How do you know this? Many things that we know of today and our relations to them would be drastically changed under socialism.

...

leftcom proceeds to shit all over the board like pidgeon

pigeon*
sorry cock was in my throat

Because the very formulation is a bourgeois invention. With the death of feudalism, the new bourgeois order needed to legitimize itself and inspire loyalty in its people without the old feudal bonds. The solution was nationalism and its associated mythology. Nationalism ties the proletariat to the bourgeoisie in much the same way that fealty once tied peasants to their lords. We don't want "socialist nationalism" for the same reason that we don't want "socialist fealty". We want a new system where the proletarian class rules, and that means the death of the nation, just as the rise of capitalism meant the death of feudal ties.

Context, especially based on specific cultures and locations, helps in regarding whether or not nationalism is socialist or not. Regardless, any internationalist movement that tramples over vernacular cultures, especially ones not native to the source of said movement, is essentially imperialism and is anti-socialist.
While socialist movements *can* be like this (keyword: can), there are many nationalist movements that not only can be like this but *are* like this. So again, context is necessary.

weak bait, try harder

I understand the point you are making but I find it hard to believe that once the proletarian rule in a country that the concept of love for one's nation and the nation itself will die off. The only way I could see this happening is if the revolution is global but I personally don't see that as a possibility.

If anything, a global revolution is the ideal revolution, considering that capitalism itself is a global system.
But knowing that capitalism is a global system showing more of this cosmopolitan nature every day, I don't see how love for one's nation is an inherently anti-socialist concept and not just something that capitalism has taken advantage of at a certain point in time.

No! you are the bait!
Rojava is DemCon which is at its core anti-nationalist.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava

OP, this may be bait, but I agree

but i looked elsewhere on wikipedia and it said that demcon is socialist?????????????????????????????????????

What's your point? Mine was that it isn't nationalist, at least not beyond a vague sense of non-ethnic civic nationalism.

kys retard

Nationalism has literally been almost as important in building socialism worldwide as socialism itself.

the kurds in rojava and iraq and fighting to become an independent state where they can be represented by their own ethnicity, yes?
then you have nationalism, simple as that.
if they weren't fighting for nationalism then they wouldn't care if they were living under foreign occupiers

...

Well, that may be true, and the PKK surely started out as a nationalist movement as much as a socialist one, but little of that remains in modern Rojava.
I'd also add that often nationalist movements that start out socialist turn our pretty horrible, the whole history of Ba'ahtism is pretty depressing in that regard.

Just look it up mate, there are shitloads of Arabs, Turkmens and Assyrians fighting for them, they don't try to force Kurdish culture or language on the conquered areas, but incorporate them as equals. Their whole organizational structure is highly decentralized, with the majority of decision-making happening at the lowest levels.
DemCon is built up upon local rule, not uniting the "nation".

They just might not have the time for that, though. They have more urgent problems to worry about.

This is b8. Read Apo

I think your idea of "nationalism" is a bit unfair and necessarily excludes any positive, socialist manifestations of national consciousness of which I would argue Rojava is an example. Nationalism does not necessitate expanding what constitutes your "nation" into other nations, it merely requires the protection and self-determination of a national identity. Of course it doesn't necessarily exclude national expansion either but it doesn't require it. In this way I would say DemCon can be quite pro-nationalist rather than anti in the sense that it offers any concept of national identity or even none at all to organize itself without being at the expense of others (a serious problem of bourgeois nation states, it's not possible to have an entirely pure nation state as borders will always either include foreign nationalities or fail to include common national peoples).

And I don't think the wording "incorporate them as equals" is correct, DemCon doesn't integrate everyone into a unitary entity rather it allows communities to organize themselves autonomously.

National identity is usually an imposed idea on people, not an actually self occuring organic thing, and in the process of creating this "identity" regional and local identities and tradtions are trampled and destroyed. Nationalism has always ever been destroying diveristy of culture and crustoms within a given nation in order to consolidate more power in those who pretend to act for the "nation"

That's the bourgeois kind of national identity which is relatively new in the grand scheme of things. National identity much like governments and many other things changes form to suit the needs of the reigning economic conditions (and the ruling class for that matter). Following the fall of the nobility and the church with bourgeois revolutions national identity has become very important to the bourgeoisie in justifying themselves and in maintaining social cohesion - and so they do things like what they did in France where they enforced Parisian customs and culture across the entire country as "being French" is now what united people instead of the king. However national identity as a thing is older than this use of it, even if historically it was more marginalized compare to other considerations like religion.

I would think that in socialism and communism this transformation of national consciousness is going to continue, just as it changed between feudalism and capitalism. However I don't think it would evaporate into a fully internationalist solidarity, I would think it would go (for lack of a better word) "backwards" into a kind of community oriented tribalism where peoples would grow more distinct from one and other rather than grow into one common human identity. And I would think DemCon offers the seeds of this kind of national transformation in empowering regional communities over a unitary state as capitalist nations do.

huh
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Öcalan