Good counter-arguments against "muh socialism ruined venezuela"?
Good counter-arguments against "muh socialism ruined venezuela"?
Jaxson Martinez
Other urls found in this thread:
counterpunch.org
youtube.com
aljazeera.com
telegraph.co.uk
counterpunch.org
foxnews.com
bcv.org.ve
blackagendareport.com
twitter.com
Gavin Nelson
And also:
Jackson Adams
Chances are, if whoever you're talking to thinks that Venezuela is socialism, play the same game and point out the prosperity of the Scandinavian socdem countries.
Nathaniel Baker
Don't do this. Please make an effort to differentiate socialism and social democracy.
Isaac Stewart
I think he might be talking about inflation.
Even in that case, inflation is a problem of a capitalist country, so that's kind par for the course.
Cameron Sanders
Best answer would be that IT ISN'T FUCKING SOCIALIST
Eli Nelson
The crisis started around the end of 2012, way before the oil crash.
Ryder Cook
Also what's about this "once richest nation in south America" line that is thrown around so often?
I don't really know the history, but wasn't the period of Venezuela(or at least the upper class) being well off quite some time before Chavez came to power?
Cooper Price
Venezuela was in this state before left-wing government, Chavez was a significant improvement.
Nicholas Phillips
This.
Venezuela was doing shit with neoliberals, there was some improvement when Chavez took power despite the Oil sabotage
Aiden Jenkins
It might be corrrect but it really isn't a good answer in a debate. The answer is always something something "no true scotsman"
or "muh not real socialism" even if you bring up that it literally doesn't fit the most basic definition of it.
Wyatt Wright
Well you simply play the autistic logical fallacy pointing game and tell them they're begging the question, socialism isn't whatever you want it to be, why debate with someone on socialism when they do not even know the basics of it
Jacob Brooks
This.
Why do people with no knowledge on economics and politics feel like they have something to say on the topic
Lincoln Rivera
Oil is back and Venezuela is suffering. Explain yourselves, commies.
Grayson Ross
Are you retarded? It's at
$49 right now. For Venezuela to just break even it has to be at $117 or higher.
Ryan Lopez
Care to explain this statement?
Carson Diaz
What is there to explain you doofus? Around $117/barrel of oil is the price Venezuela needs to merely maintain government spending commitments. Not to expand, but to maintain.
They already have and now there is no toilet paper on the shelves because they are prioritising repaying international creditors instead of imports.
Lucas Gutierrez
Mason Powell
see
Daniel Scott
...
Caleb Brooks
tried these before
the response was basically "haha well [number, changes with "source" that was cited] companies were nationalized, SOUNDS SOCIALIST TO ME!!!1"
Camden Parker
Tell him the USSR and DDR had basically no inflation.
Camden Watson
Why would US Super Rares and Dance Dance Revolution have inflation?
Julian Wright
explain that their problem was not being 100% white like norway
Nicholas Hall
Venezuela is a Socialist Utopia now!
telegraph.co.uk
Dylan Thompson
counterpunch.org
Literally the single best economic article on Venezuela.
It's written from a left opposition perspective.
Jackson Wood
Good article. Hard to disagree.
That story can't be true, because why would the opposition be destroying stores of food if Venezuelans were going hungry? Nobody could be that evil.
Jordan Edwards
Literally Kulaks.
Thomas Edwards
hey, facts are facts bro. Am i supposed to consider torching other people's food during a shortage to be valid political protest now? You can say 'muh kulaks' all you want but that ain't sanity.
Jeremiah Wood
USA ruined Venezuela
Grayson Lopez
"anti-government" is the codeword for CIA
Zachary Bennett
It's a social democracy, plain and simple
Thomas Adams
Scandinavian countries are collapsing and will be Saudi Arabia in one generation.
All the Scandinavians are self-hating so much they refuse to have children.
Anthony Richardson
What the fuck, first I could swear I capped an old post of mine weeks ago, and now I'm sure I posted this last night. Are Ianqui spies messing with me? Anyway, here it is:
It was never a mixed economy. Nationalizations were suitably compensated, and aside from that, private property remained untouched. What he did do that was much praised by socialists was redistribute land (you have no idea how terrible land distribution is in most of South America; redistribution is arguably it's the reason Castro sought USSR's protection), increase expenditure on health and education (two areas Latin American leaders love to slash), promote coops, create Communal Coucils and Urban Land Committees (community-building and small-scale direct democracy), subsidize basic products, turned some closed businesses into coops (again, with compensation) and plenty more I'm forgetting. Not to mention his election marked the end of banana republic-style oppression, such as routine torture of local opposition and leftis leaders by the police.
The best source I have for how much of their GDP was in the private sector is, ironically enough, Fox News, flat-out stating Venezuela isn't socialist, and 70% of the GDP was private in 2010. I looked for more current data and found numbers for 2015 on the site of their central bank. In that year, the private sector still controlled 68% of GDP.
foxnews.com
bcv.org.ve
As to what fucked Venezuela up, I can sum up in two words: price control. Except for very specific circumstances (the most notable example being stopping a monopolist from overcharging), price control in a capitalist state has never worked. This should be tattooed on the forehead of every fucking government official in the world. It's doubly awful, because it not only decreases production and thus supply, but also decreases producers' productive capacity. The reason is very simple: this being capitalism, producers' were allowed to hoard. Every once in a while you might see something about the Venezuelan government busting some hoarder or other, but it's nowhere near enough. It takes a revolution to stop this practice.
Camden Butler
Holla Forums pls
Hudson Young
...
Grayson Powell
in addition the iran sanctions
Adrian Evans
???
Andrew Campbell
...
Isaiah Harris
Use the "muh oil prices" and "american cia sabotage" argument.
Grayson Bennett
Lemme respost since the formatting was ugly:
Okay so I'll just finally clarify this because people always hold this over my head, Left Keynesian perspective on Venezuela's economic situation explained with a hypothetical conversation which is totally not biased:
Free Market dude (i'm not gonna say Neo-Liberal because I don't want people fucking me in the ass over that): "Look at Venezuela you stupid Socialist, Hyperinflation! Massive Public Debt! Shortages from Price Controls! This is what Keynesian policies do you moron, this is what happens when you print too much money and run up a deficit! Excess Demand causing Runaway Inflation"
SocDem dude: "But how can Venezuela's Inflation be caused by excess demand when their unemployment rate hovers above 6-7% on a good year and averaged around 10% only until recently? They aren't in full Capacity Utilization, as evidenced by falling Export Prices especially for Oil, it most likely is not Demand-Pull, hence Expansionary Policy in a superficial sense cannot be to blame."
Free Market Dude: "Well then 2 questions.. isn't the poor Capacity Utilization a testament to the failure of Keynesian style policies for achieving Full Employment? And second, what do you think actually is causing the Inflation? Also you didn't answer my questions about the Shortages."
SocDem dude: "Well the first question is very tentative firstly because the Expansionary Policies did in fact help to lower unemployment, it was hovering above 20% in 2003 and shrunk to around 4.5% in 2014, and has stayed above NAIRU around 7% since around 2005, but this is still obviously not satsifactory, and there are reasons why Venezuela is struggling, some of which can be blames on certain SocDem policies. However, no one should mistake Venezuela's Monetary Expansions as a real Expansion in the Countries Money Supply, these are Asset Swaps of Securities to Liquidity for the Financial Sector, and were also involved in failed attempts to settle some foreign obligations, even New Keynesians recognize this. In regards to the second question, without completely ruling out Demand Pull:
Oliver Gutierrez
pt. 2
Venezuela is in a tough spot, and some important Policy Changes that will both be even more Heterodox and Socialist and in some cases more Liberal will help it, but one thing that would help is if they weren't being so hypocritically mistreated in the international community under the facade of "Human Rights" (when the US is more than Favorable to Qatar and Saudi Arabia who are far worse, ohh yeah and all those Right Wing Coups including a failed one in Venezuela around 2002). Having a little more understanding and sympathy for both the whys and hows of Venezuela's situation, and not diminishing their experience as a sarcastic, un-researched retort against Social Democracy when we've known most of what could cause this since way back in the 30s, would also be a lot more constructive"
Free Market Dude: "Okay, I don't necessarily agree with your analysis because there are some fundamental assumptions at play about how Prices Work, the way Money Supply affects prices and Output as well Micro-Economics that we disagree on and would go on and on, but I can now understand that Keynesians aren't ignoring Venezuela's situation and do have an explanation in line with their own theory. I can only hope that in the end, the correct Analysis and Approach is adopted by Venezuela's policy makers because at the end of the day, Human Suffering is about People not winning an Ideological battle."
SocDem dude: "Thank you"
Free Market Dude: "Nah just kidding READ BASIC ECONOMICS YOU STUPID BERNTARD"
Ryan Cooper
As a leftist I will say Venezuela made the mistake of pursuing a pegged exchange rate, mono-export based economy that attempted to balance with executive monetary discretion, Its got nothing to do with Socialism or Keynesianism, its to do with just some classic mono export pegged currency funniness.
Sebastian Sanchez
venezuela's job is to make colombia look good
Cooper Sanchez
The answer is you read
Carson Diaz
Those who oppose Maduro are anti communist traitors. He will fix economy in time when the oil prices go up.
Gabriel Fisher
You must be seriously retarded to believe this.
Colton Anderson
Goddamn nigga that's a spicy take.
Isaiah Hall
/gulag
Leo Gonzalez
If you're an ancom
If you're not, blame the government for expanding their infratructure and government programs on the revenue generated from one fucking product (oil)
Robert Ward
Context on that photo?
Jose Murphy
transitionairy phase aint socialism dummy
Nolan Gonzalez
wew
Oliver Rogers
The economy died before the oil prices went down, how would it recover after they go back up?
Brandon White
There's literally no trace of the people that burned 50 tons of food, so there's nothing that shows that those people are opposition rioters and this is not just another Pudreval (buying more food than they can distribute and getting rid of it, so they can get heavily subsidized dollars)
James Bennett
blackagendareport.com
venezuela is communist like china
William Sanders
whats your beef with the Saudis they have a an ultra nationalist ultra conservative monarchy isn't that exactly what you cuntfaggots want for us?
Parker Russell
you should stick sources on this
Ethan Barnes
I always like to turn their attention to the capitalist phillipines
Adam Bennett
...
Matthew Rogers
Point out Chavez's legacy, how he improved the social conditions and made Venezuela an anti-imperialist country that has the ambition of unifying Latin America.
Explain how fucked South America has been in the past due to american intervention, neoliberal policies, and constant coups and power struggle.
Point out that the Venezuelan opposition are a bunch of violent reactionary classists (plenty of evidence online)
And how the end of the bolivarian revolution will imply a return to poverty, neoliberalism and dependency.
Basically explain imperialism in south america lol
Aiden Gutierrez
It's the left who want Sharia, not the right. Saudis are the most degenerate sandniggers you could find.
Caleb Gray
...
Chase Sanders
Didn't capitalism also fail globally 10 years ago, only to be saved from full-blown depression by socialism ('government doing stuff')?
Elijah Smith
kek
Hudson Reyes
The Left is burying ISIS in Syria right now and has done more to fight Islam than a bunch of sweaty nationalist bourgeois bootlickers ever will
Camden Hall
When "reduce inequality" means "make everyone poor"…
Robert Morris
You really don't know how Venezuela was before Chavez, my cappie sucking friendo?
Adam Allen
I am from Venezuela and the user is saying the true, Chavez fuck up everything.
Venezuela was a great place to life but because stupid old men that want "muh socialism" now we are fucked.
Julian Perry
The company that I work for here in Portland has a couple of Venezuelan porkies who work for them as contractors. I know for a fact that both are working with the resistance. Where can I report these guys?
Xavier Lewis
you're a mutualist dumbfuck
Jaxson Diaz
They are not doing nothing illegal user.
Ryder Myers
Yeah, who would he report them to? The Venezuelan government?