From what I know, Anarcho-Communists are commies that use the anarchist definition of the state and are opposed to the transitional socialist stage.
Yeah, I understand this part.
Okay, sorry that I couldn't help then.
It's mostly a word-game.
We will call a state with some other words. Like union or cooperate.
We will call currency with some other words. Like labor vouchers or value papers.
We will call laws with some other words. Like rules, because anarchy doesn't mean chaos.
You know labor vouchers aren't money, right? Because money can be hoarded, labor vouchers are void after use and thus can't be accumulated by the store, only the workers themselves can gain it through work.
How can you not hoard labor vouchers?
For what purpose? You mean illegally keeping them after use?
When you purchase something (Luxuries, as necessities are a human right.) from a store the store then destroys or marks the voucher, hence it can't be used. Only the laborer can gain vouchers. They're commissioned by the worker councils, as communism isn't meant to have vouchers or councils. Socialism is.
To get more shit they want?
And laborers cannot trade vouchers between themselves?
What would trade them for?
I'm gonna do this shit for you, in return, give me your labor voucher.
People did do stuff like this, in the USSR there was a black market that was ignored to take the strain off central planning. If you needed your car fixed (for example) and you wanted doing it immediately, you would buy the mechanic in your commie block a bottle of vodka and he would do it after work, often drinking with the guy whose car he just fixed.
And wouldn't there be people who would do that labor for vouchers commissioned by councils already? And why not do it yourself?
Because you can hoard labor voucher that way, and in return, completely break the system by getting more goods than everyone else.
Everything in this thread is speculation as the ultimate goal of anarchism is to have these and any other dissensions decided by the people within that anarchist society. That being said, anarchists communists (otherwise know as anarchists) have so general idea about how society should be organized. Probably not Things are not paid for, probably. The fact you asked this question lead me to understand you either dont know how markets work or how any other economic/social system has ever existed outside of your own you find yourself in. Define balanced economy. a large amount of guns and local councils, probably.
Has any economical model existed that wasn't a market?
Yes, unlike whatever anarchist says, when a hiearchy is created inside a territory, a state is created.
If things are not paid for with any form of currency, then how does this prevent exploitation?
If local councils are used to maintain order, how are they anything more than pseudo-sates at a more decentralized level?
Look at the world, human civilization and the amount of time we've existed on the planet, if you can sit their and easily tell weve only used one form of economic system and it was in fact the market, ill kill myself in this thread.
Well prepare to kill yourself, because from human history, market has always existed.
Things don't go for free because people don't want to do work for nothing.
So, why not just have the people do labor under a council instead of the exchange you are giving an example of? And again, we're not even talking about the original topic, as only under socialism are labor vouchers advocated for. Communism, as an Anarcho-Communists advocate for does not contain labor vouchers.
It wouldn't break the system, you would just starve because you're refusing to spend your vouchers, like a moron.
sorry that was for
Because it wouldn't prevent the workers themselves trading the vouchers? Oh so a moneyless, stateless system right?
Yeah, or they can just hoard voucher and afford every kind of things they need.
Indeed you are right.
Anarchism can only work through word game i.e. a state is not-state, money is not-money, laws are not-laws.
Again, like what?
Again, like more commodities than can be traded for vouchers.
Luxuries, food, water, medicine, you know things that other people want to trade their vouchers for.
If everything you could need is owned in common with everyone around you, how are you being exploited from participating in that system you already put effort into every day of your life? Its like asking how stealing from yourself is exploitation.
That a very good question. In order to answer it properly would take a very long historical and practical analysis of what exactly a state is (its not any social iteration between people in a society) compared to what local anarchist federations and communes are and how they function differently. But since has made me see the light and wee all know for a fact that all human groups that interact on any level are just many many states, i dont need to do that now.
So let me get this straight: You don't spend any of your vouchers on commodities Then you spend all your vouchers on commodities You raise the price of the commodities ???? Everyone buys their commodities off you
ive got a rope, a ceiling fan and nothing but time. Shall we start with an analysis of pre-historic man?
Sound pretty okay except the part you not having to spend any of your voucher.
I mean, you kinda have to unless you have some kind of free ration each day.
markets only exist when states enforce them. they aren't natural and most of human history did not have markets.
It's really a genius plan if you don't think about it.
The same pre-historic man who would trade a berry for a shiny stone the other pre-historic man has.
Can you prove your point?
Lets get something strait, labor vouchers are theoretically not part of the anarchist communist platform. However, in various social experiments they have come up as a way of rationing all things that were in low supply or of luxuries like alcohol, tobacco ect ect.
You are being exploited because some of the shit made by you would be gotten by other people, when they are by right should be yours.
For example: you make this machinery, other workers use the machinery to make goods, except the goods now long to them, despite the fact the machinery was made by you.
That's so interesting, wheres the data on this? Or can i just dump the shit that proves you wrong now or can you continue to dig yourself into the dumbfuck hole?
How would an anarchist communist platform work, I wonder?
so if i made chairs, in your mind i would make chairs for my own personal stockpile and if no-one else in the commune wanted chairs i would starve?
The point is the chair the other people using your machinery isn't your.
These guys are making labour vouchers outta the means of production you make.
I read that, and it seems to prove that bartering exists between prehistoric man.
So what's the deal?
Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?
no one owns the chair machines, everyone own them.
But you make that machine, not everyone.
Who gives everyone the right to own your personal property?
What? The entire fucking machine? Are you saying that for every hundred people using a set of lathes, there is one man tirelessly making lathes in a shack somewhere?
Yes, a hammer or a bunch of nails can be made entirely by one man.
So what are you proposing? Royalties on hammers?
UPHOLD MARXISM PRODUCTIONSHACKISM THOUGHT
I dunno, would that turn into capitalism though?
Yeah, man, nobody should own hammer or tools.
Everyone should own them.
Lets think about this for a moment. Im a machine maker, i make machines that help other people make machines and with that as my full intention. Now somehow, all the machines i have made are my personal property, despite me being able to make and use only one machine at a time. So what, because i make a shit tone of things that i dont use or ever intend to use, they still somehow belong to me? What propertarian hokus pokus is this shit?
This image = your argument
So…the machines you make don't actually belong to you?
did you read it? because thats the exact opposite of it says. magical barter land never existed.
you make machines from scratch? you mine the materials, forge the metals, manufacture all of the parts that you have taken from the earth with your own two hands?
The supply chain involved in making machines is so vast that it's impossible for one man to be the sole creator. For instance, did he mine the ore or extract the oil that makes up the parts of the machine?
Yeah, it kinda does.
Not sure about the magical part though.
they tools with a function. i will be doing other things with my life besides building machines, other people can use the machine making machines to make other machines to make other machines. If im doing this and i already know that all the machines i make will be used by other people in any economic system, and im currently participating in a society that doesn't believe in privet property, WHY WOULD I CONSIDER THE THINGS I MAKE WITH THE INTENTION OF THEIR CREATION TO BE USED BY OTHER PEOPLE MY OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY?
I think the funniest part of all of this is that the process of making machinery is so gigantic that an individual could never even perform a single part of the chain, yet somehow machinery will belong to a single man welding bars together in his production shack.
Yes, I do.
Doesn't take much work to get some stone and wood to make a hammer.
So again…the tools/machines you make don't actually belong to you?
The best part is when pressed on it the machine becomes a hammer.
Yes, no one can make a tool or machine by themselves, good to know, because of that every tool/machinery belong to everyone.
they belong to you, and anyone else that want/need to use them. Its collectivized. It means you won it. Collectively.
Come on fam.
What does that even mean?
Councils, confederations, and other non-hierarchial organizations.
So…now my goods become everyone's good?
So how is this for worker's rights?
I thought the point is to be fair, that my surplus value isn't extracted by other people?
It's okay fam, you can live in your hammer shack and nobody will bother you.
How are these not-hierarchial?
That's all I need.
Communism is end of economy as such.
Their is no surplus value. All the value goes toward's everyone benefit. So you worked, went home, decided you needed a chair, so you just go down to where they keep the extra chairs, probably sign it out or something, take it home and now you have a chair. Also the house, the food, the electricity, the heat and anything else offer by the communes collective resources. You get all that, by working what want to for however long you choose to do it.
I'm sure the extra hammers are my surplus value, since they are made by my labors. So…uh, I thought they are supposed to my personal properties? Or now they are owned by everyone too?
Does this mean anyone can go and sleep in my home?
so what do you plan to do with all these extra hammers? Do you know the difference between Private property and personal property?
Why are you making so many hammers?
Keep them for myself since my hammer can be broken? Private property means property you own but not use. Personal property means property you own but use?
So I can have replacement when my current one is broken.
Hammers: The bane of ancoms.
Why are you making so many shitty hammers?
Or any hand-made tools really.
My hammer isn't shitty, but they can be broken, nothing lasts forever.
How many hammers do you think you'll need before you feel secure enough to stop making hammers? Why not get a hammer from the communally owned factory that produces hammers?
Or you can use one of the many other hammers that the commune probably has. Since you seem to be making alot of hammers anyway, they can go into the collectives resources as well, to be used by you as you need it. See how that works?
As many as I can make. Why do that when I can make my own hammers?
I don't see how that works, because it means I lose ownership of my surplus value.
It must be shitty if you're making and hoarding hammers because you're terrified of them breaking. Either that, or, well, hopefully there is a proper Lacanian psychoanalyst in your commune to help you deal with your bizarre percussomania.
Thank you for the recommendation but can I keep my hammer please?
What surplus value? The hammers aren't being sold. No profit is gained. The hammers are being produced for use.
It depends on whether or not you're a danger to the commune. Your fixation on hammers appears unhealthy and you'll need to be examined to make sure you aren't a danger to yourself or any other hammer owning member of the community.
My labor of course.
I make these hammers, ergo they belong to me.
.==LONG LIVE OUR COMMUNE'S WORKER'S SHACK== BUILT BY ONE MAN ON LOTS OF CRACK LONG LIVE OUR HAMMERS, HIS PROPERTY! STRONG IN THEIR FRAMES, THEY'RE TRIED BY FIRE! LONG WILL OUR WORKER'S SHACK INSPIRE POUNDING IN GLORY FOR ALL MEN TO SEE!
Damn, I didn't know owning many hammers can create such a danger.
I wonder what would happen if it's related to weapons like guns.
Because you seem to be wasting a lot of time making and hoarding hammers. Presumably you'd like to do something else with your time, no?
I already eat, sleep, play video games in my free time, so…thank you?
Labor itself isn't surplus value. You also live off of the resources provided by the community.
But it is though, since labor creates value. But the resources of the community belong to everyone, so…?
Right but the point of communism is to eliminate the distinction between free time and work. Self realization would be tied directly to your labor without the imposition of producing a surplus value. Why would you spend your labor on making piles of useless hammers?
At that point, I can just make hammers because I like making hammers, can I?
Not all value is surplus value. Exactly. That's why your surplus of hammers would go to the community.
This one definitely is because it is surplus i.e. extra. And everything else I make, I presume, due to the fact I live off the community's resources?
Ok. So now you can be the guy that makes hammers for everyone because that's what you seem to be passionate about.
to a reasonable extent. i dont think a collective of people would continue to lend you their resources if you just kept making a load of shitty hammer all day erryday.
But I do not like to make hammers for everyone, after all, I make them to replace my own.
They have no need to, since I can just chop up wood and make hammer by myself.
Then you are making too many shitty fucking hammers user!
Surplus-value isn't just extra stuff.
As said, I like making them.
In this case it is though. They are excess, things I do not need but want.
Please read a book.
Except it literally isn't you stupid asshole
That's not what surplus-value is. Surplus-value is the profit taken once a commodity has been sold. There is no profit or commodities in a communist society.
For your information, I do live off the communal's food supplies and the communal-provided personal properties, but the hammer I make are of my own labor.
If you use argue that because I use the community's resources, I and my labor are owned by the community, that seems a bit fascistic and statist.
Well, I hope my hammers aren't classed as a commodity.
Either ways, I hope the fruits of my labor (the hammer) is not exploited by the community (i.e. them taking control of them without my consent).
IT'S THE WORK SHACK IT'S THE WORK SHACK
Your hammers essentially exist as commodities because while they exist materially they do not exist socially because you're hoarding them which prevents their use-value from being realized.
So they must be used, or else?
You can not own stuff just because?
Unless you're mining the iron a coal etc etc etc to make these hammers then no they aren't just the product of your own labor
Holy shit you're retarded
My hammer is made of wood I chop off.
They are to make chairs.
Stop using terms you know nothing about faggot.
Is the usage of fruit of labor and exploitation wrong?
it's to save face and keep arguing after being BTFO about one man producing machinery in a nutshack all day long.
Well the point of communism is to produce for use but I'm not sure people are going to care about your hammers made of rocks and wood so I say go and make hammers until your little hearts content.
Anarcho communist memes are shit
It is as simple as reading this book then Value Price and Profit for an explanation on how these terms are used more or less. Exploitation is the extraction of surplus value from the labour a worker does on something which is exchangeable.
Surplus value is part of the value created by the worker which the capitalist appropriates just by virtue of being the owner of the capital.
Where'd you find the time to make the hatchet to chop the wood been making all those hammers?
Can't you see? Comrade Hammers does all his work with what nature provides him!
lol you can cut down trees and chunk out stone, shape it and make your own hammer all on your own without tools? special guy you are. now you have your hammer, you can make machines with just a hammer?
I think you're forgetting that labor vouchers are tied to YOU, so your labor vouchers are useless to someone else. A good example would be some kind of virtual currency tied to your government (sorry ancoms) profile, so only you can use them.
Also, "hoarding" LVs is different from saving up with LVs in this connotation.
That's actually a good idea. You could have something like a credit card that keeps track of your vouchers.
this is why mutualism is the only way ;)
but that's barter between groups. the point is that trade played a relatively small role in these early societies. A society in which there's only occasional trades with foreign groups is hardly a barter society, nor is it a market society.
there is no currency. it is from each, to each. the issue with money and markets is that it alienates all other forms of incentive, such as care for other human beings.
anti-social comes about from alienation that arises from hierarchy, as the concern for others is abstracted by the need to maintain the hierarchy. this is especially rampant under capitalism, where concern for human beings has become greatly abstracted by commodity fetishism and the competitive nature of capitalism. without this hierarchy, conflicts become much more reasonably manageable by community cooperation through restorative justice.
*cost benefit analysis
That pic is stupid, there is no anarchist party.
its a joke man
Severely underrated post
What will be the punishment for selling counterfeit labor vouchers in exchange for cartons of cigarettes and cheap vodka, then selling those for actual labor vouchers, because this is what I plan on doing if the revolution happens.
god the ancoms on this board make me fucking embarrassed to be an anarchist