Does anyone have any articles that debunk the killings of millions of people in Marxist-Leninist states?
Does anyone have any articles that debunk the killings of millions of people in Marxist-Leninist states?
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yes I have them saved right next to my holocaust denial folder
Just read old Soviet documents and don't blame famines on the rulers. As the famines were either due to weather, reactionaries or some combination of the two. The reason I said Soviet is because the photo and how every rightist thinks it was evil.
t. robert conquest
Millions of people did die under Marxist-Leninist states.
The problem with the argument is that millions of people died Under many forms of different governments for a plethora of reasons. As of now, we talk about the millions that died under communist/socialist rules due to famine or what have you, and in 80 years people could be talking about the millions that died under murder/suicide in capitalistic governments. Neither is a direct result of the governing system.
It's more complicated than that. Many of the deaths do have poor implications for M-Ls, but the vast majority of these deaths were due to incompetence, not straight up murder.
If Black Book logic was applied to capitalism you could probably reach an easy billion deaths.
Yeah, I have tons of articles about that but they're in my other tank.
"Stalin/The USSR killed 500 trillion" is just so easy to debunk. Only people who don't know how to research demographics and compare numbers believe that shit. Watch how archival evidence and census data shows growth in Soviet population and life expectancy where there should be 10s of millions dead.
It was due to circumstances
These things happened under the Tsar as well
Why even bother with arguing about this subject. It isn't like anyone will become a socialist by pointing out that Stalin didn't literally kill 100 million people with his bare hands.
You don't, becaise it cannot be debunked.
go ban the hammer and sickle again, laszlo
Why wouldn't they take revenge on the people who installed communism?
Not to mention the obvious absurdity of the 60 million figure. That would be nearly a third of the Soviet population. Meanwhile Pol Pot gets the worst rep for killing a fifth of Cambodians, everybody neglects to mention, despite all the hatred for Stalin, that one in three Soviets died under his rule!
Do you have these for Mao's China as well?
I'd post em myself but the file sizes are too big to share on Holla Forums
Show me the millions of bodys.
All I ever see is these pictures. It only shows maybe 20 bodys.
Rightists make pretty bad propaganda tbh.
Show me the 6 million dead jews. kys tankie
I generally agree but isn't it possible those stats were faked by the USSR?
Easy. I have a lot of mass graves from the Nazis (cuckolds).
But not one from the Soviets (heros), really makes you think.
That newspaper was one of the earliest examples of Holodomor propaganda and many of the photographs shown are from the 1921 Volga famine. The Chicago American was owned by William Hearst, a tycoon who literally pioneered the "fake news" of his generation and one of the main advocates of fascism in America. He also knew Hitler in person and had ties with the Nazi leadership. It was Goebbels who coined the "6 million dead Ukrainians" claim and transmitted it to western media. The Holodomor as a genocide is literally a Nazi myth made to victimize Ukraine and justify their "liberation" during Operation Barbarossa. Conquering Ukraine was vital to Hitler's plans for turning Germany into a completely self-sufficient super power.
where r d proofs billy
Why would you want to?
Are you some sort of fascist?
You are preaching to the quire.
Holodomor is not as know as much because it didn't happen.
Based Sputnik News (real news) calles out this Anti-Stalinist bullshit.
no one dared to disturb the sound of silence.
>Pol-Pot CIA kills
This nigga gets it.
that's when you reconsider your life choices
please tell us about how Stalin killed half the population of the USSR and then it grew back by the 50s
The birthrates went up during Stains rule.
it's just not worth discussing. that's the point, dude. this is what nazis and tankies never get. when someone says "your state sounds shitty and repressive" and you get out the infographs and shit and tell 'em "oh well actually the people who died were all just reactionaries," you've already lost. People will not take some dipshit on the internet who is in denial about atrocities the soviet union committed seriously.
this proves what exactly?
Are you serious? There's quite a massive difference between claiming Stalin was a good boy who did no wrong and disproving ridiculous Cold War-era accusations, you disingenuous fuck.
where did I claim otherwise? why is this significant
most facts are propaganda tbh.
you're calling people tankies for not agreeing with you and making up baseless claims.
That's so weak, man.
seems like you need a moment to read through what I posted again. I did not say what you are saying no rush, friend.
lel. i don't know why I'm arguing with you. you haven't actually presented any arguments, just some bullshit about how tankies are like nazis.
This was written by a Communist Party member though. Its hardly an objective source is it.
But Goebbels and Robert Conquest are? There are no 100% neutral sources out there. Everybody had an agenda. You should never blindly believe something because somebody wrote a paper about it, but instead examine the sourced and statistics independently.
The people who ape Conquest's early works are hilarious. He chopped 30 million deaths from his estimates when Soviet archives came to be.
mfw when it's six gorillians all over again
Wait, weren't some of the censuses faked?
Pledge your support to the DPRK's fight against imperialism.
Everything can be fake if you go far enough down an ideological hole. If you can provide some actual proof that they were faked, then please do so, but until then I think we should apply Occam's Razor.
Whoops forgot to take off my shitposting flag.
Question about the alleged Songbun system (I do understand that the article argues that it doesn't exist): All caste systems have rules about offspring from inter-caste couples. How is that supposed to work in Songbun? Surely, a straightforward approach involves actually informing people which caste they are in, no? If inter-caste marriage is allowed, but comes with the issue of potentially downgrading your status or that of your kids, surely this must be a HUGE topic families talk all the time about and marriage decisions must be something the parents and rest of family are very involved with.
If people do not know how they are classified, how do you deal with the massive amount of mixed-caste offspring (and it is going to be massive given the high amount of different categories: 56 claimed in one text, 51 in another)? If people usually don't know their classification, I can't see how this can even be something that matters for more than a tiny fraction of all positions (probably related to national security).
It also strikes me as rather inefficient: That people are tracked in some way wouldn't surprise me, but surely that is something the government would want to be up-to-date? That is, your actual behavior would affect your rating, duh.
I knew you commiebots had no heart or conscience.
Found the kulak
I hope the soviets ate that fucking horse.
It's clearly a joke you dumb shits
Thanks, comrade obvious.
Pull your head out of your ass you massive sperg, it's just the usual Holla Forums banter.
Both events were made up to serve liberal propagandists.
WHY do you people obsess with defending the weak and failed?
:') that just means Nazis were more efficient that sovietcucks at eliminitaing their enemy.
People like you are the reason why words like marxism and communism is fucking reviled by the general public.
Ever wonder why stalinist sects never grow beyond a hundred members? Shit this is so fucking autistic fuck me
1. numbers are exaggerated
2. communism removes undesirable elements from the society ONCE, and then they're done
3. capitalism kills that many people INDIRECTLY every few years.
so, even if the figures are correct (which they're not), capitalism in america has killed at least five times as many people as communism in the same period.
If you admit you are a communist, you are undoubtedly going to be asked about the Soviet Union and/or China. And you must learn to discern to truth rather than play it up to bourgeois lies.
Yeah I guess you're right, we need highly educated people to research this since it's so contested.
Jesus you tankies aren't making it easy on yourselves.
I'm not that far up Lenins ass that I would remotely consider fascist dictatorships communist. Hell, if Pinochet called himself communist tankies would suck his dick all day.
You are a fucking idiot. The point of this is to correct historical revisionism which is used as an argument against communism, it is irrelevant to what your opinion of these countries is.
But go ahead and pull the trite "it wasn't real communism" card so people laugh in your face in the middle of a debate.
I've always wondered, do they teach you the meaning of the word revisionism at Stalin booktables(and then you instantly forget it), or are you just taught to chunk it at everything that sounds haram? Does this come through a long ardous process of "dialectic materialism"?
Jesus fucking christ, get you fucking brain off socialism as Weltanschaung.
The guy implies that we who aren't part of the local Church of Stalin chapter are stupid and/or uneducated, then proceeds by shitposting the eternal maoist bus driver who is completely off his fucking rocker. (I've met this lunatic)
You have no idea what historical revisionism is and screech at the second word like your average anarkiddie who denounces everything the Soviet Union did. Cute.
Just how hard is it for you to check things for yourself. Or should we believe everything we are presented with, even if it is logically impossible, because bourgeois historians would never lie to us and academics never have interests to defend?
Fucks sake just look at the table you yourself posted just now, the nativity is a negative six during just ONE YEAR before it bumps up to positive again. No amount of migration or other "natural" factors makes these sharp fucking turns, a massive gorillion amount of fucking or dying creates these sharp turns. Fun fact, the big dip in 1933 happens at the same time as you know what. You really need to be clinically mentally retarded to interpret this in any other way. Take a fucking A-class in statistics or geography and you would understand but I wouldn't bet on it since you're either trolling or really fucking deep in "muh marksis leninism ideology"
Why don't you read the PDF by Mario Sousa then give a proper argument instead of sperging out?
It is also quite funny how you instantly try to paint me as a Marxist Leninist as well but whatever floats your boat, lad.
Another thing that's cute is how you realize how fucking stupid that table was for your argument about burger lies, so you proceed to assume that I haven't read Sousa. I dont need to read Sousa twice, all his speculation about burger lies can be leveraged against his side since he can't source for shit.
If he could, or that would say if anything he says is based in reality we would be having an entirely different conversation.
Marxist-Leninist or whatever the fuck denomination birthed by it you adhere to mr Ideology. Good night sir.
I did some academic studies on this, wading through a lot of made up numbers, by Conquest and others. The ones that seems to have gotten it right, and actually had access to the Soviet Archives from the time are quite a few, but still shit is reproduced in many cases
Bacon, E. The Gulag at War: Stalin's Forced Labour System in the Light of the Archives, London, 1994. pp. 27 and 36. 110 Getty, J.A., a.o. Victims of the Soviet Penal System pp. 1048-49.
Typhus would spread like hell if someone bombed all the waterworks and the food supply, in any country.
Maybe it had to do with the famine? Or is everything bad that ever happened to be blamed on evil Stalin?
I think has a point here. Greul-propaganda can be quite handy, if you want to make some one look bad.
100 000 starved peasants, can be made into 10 000 000 intentionally killed, if you want too, and non of your audience has access to check the facts on the ground.
Then why bring that table up to defend Stalin in the first place since serious scholars have found causation between birth statistics and the autistic way the five year plans were carried out?
'The Gulag Archipelago' is quoted “millions persecuted, millions died” -15 million were imprisoned at the time Stalin died. Show-trails are said to have exterminated almost the entire officers-corps of the Red Army, and 1 million party members were executed. Just from a common sense perspective 15 million prisoners seems to high, as it would mean 7% of the total population guarded by at least 2% of the population, Everyone would have three or four close relatives imprisoned, and thus having a vested interest in fighting the system. This is not how a stable state is maintained, and the numbers are with guarantee made up.
But what is rarely quoted, is that S contributes the deaths to legalised abortion. They leave that bit out quite often.
I am not defending Stalin. Checking data is not equal to defending. I would have to study the Stalin period in depth to do this.
Post your data now, then.
Did you post the table?
What? Yes I did originally.
Then finally maybe you can answer why you group genuine scholars together with "muh black book gommunism"-burgers 500trillion meme, implying that they are educated in the field before posting a propaganda piece for KPML written by a deranged bus driver?
Long story short: Burger and tankie propaganda exist, Stalin was a psychopath regardless of the exakt number or metric used, Sousa is a fucking meme.
I am asking you to post your sources.
Starting off with the book that inspired Sousa and others with conspiracy theories that included nazis(why should I trust a zealot more than a scientist that MAY be shilling?):
I've read the following(besides random wikilinks) to come to the conclusion that this shit happened, although Soviet archives are fucking less than malleable i'm more inclined to trust them more than a zealot off his meds:
Lizzie Collingham, The Taste of War: World War Two and the Battle for Food
Lotss of fucking ukranians died, the jury is still out on wheter it was because Stalin was a complete fucking jackass or a deranged psycho.