Seriously, I'm so sick and of seeing this shit on YouTube and having people on Facebook linking to videos of them...

Wolff is good as an entry pill. But he doesn't have the edge which is required to truly counteract the conservative/alt-right hegemony regarding political YouTube.

For once, he uses the "not real communism" argument which won't convince anybody. Secondly he is silent about geopolitics and history. To make stuff juicy for people, you need both.

Or actually read books. Classes at best will tell you of the bourgeois perspective on Marxism.

I have never heard of this until today. I watched this video, youtube.com/watch?v=eW3Vo-XvFoI holy fuck this people are highly corrupted.

Go study modern art or brutalist architecture.

Your ideology is a social poison and before you realize it you will have fully ruined your life with no one to blame but yourself.

pol doesn't hate you because you're a faggot, pol hates you because you are pol but less developed.

>waaaaaagh why can't our ass backwards retardation compete with something that is within spitting distance of the truth?

kek what a retarded and corrupted faggot you are. are you american? you sound like one you fucking cultureless cunt.

I think it's utopian to get a majority of people into reading books. The radical left needs populism like the alt-right/necons have it.

You done samefagging now? Are you this desperate for (you)s?

...

Almost forgot

Or are you one of those the_donald cucks and you think wall street and rentier capitalism is _BASED_?
Also check my Hitler dubs

Try again faggot.

How embarrassing, you don't have an argument this early in the conversation?

Imagine yourself screaming as you're thrown out of a helicopter.

No, Stalin is what happens after communism. You can skip the hundreds of millions of people starving part if you just follow natural law.

Actually, Stalin ended regular occurring famines in Russia and achieved a GDP per capita rivaling that of the US.

While I agree that most of the stuff they put out is dishonest rubbish.
One can find some real gems among their catalog.

Oh well, there truly is a lot of you parasites.

Is this the part where you pat yourself on the back for your ignorance?

See

We are now having what is called a "fierce agreement."

He might have worn the communist hat but he was far from a communist and it's the reason he is beloved by many Russians, and probably the reason for that weird ass nazibol group.

Nobody got time to study so many failed ideologies bro.

It's amazing how you always manage to outdo yourself, Holla Forums

Paul Joseph Watson tier

Post that red image with Stalin laughing in the background comparing the actual population of Russia after the supposed 100 trillions were killed.

Then why do you follow capitalism, either Fascist or "Libertarian"?

Predictable.

Okay Stephen Colbert try to prove me wrong. You cant though.

Art and craft didn't used to be separated. Modern art pretends that objects are philosophy. It's really stupid.

Art is supposed to be an expression of objective beauty and by extension god, not a vague representation of an idea or masturbating to your "subjective view" of beauty.

Well fucking color me surprised. And what do you know about what socialism is? You have been displaying sheer ignorance in this thread, unable to even work with the Wikipedia definition of socialism. To look up the word in the fucking dictionary would take 10 seconds which you could be arsed to invest before shitposting here.

Capitalism keeps failing yet we get indoctrinated by it in every economy 101 class.

...

Keep ignoring the bankers that suck our society dry and complaining about capitalism.

The free trade of goods and services has never been a bad thing. The centralization of our financial system is what is doing us in.

This is the only true answer.

But bankers will get the bullet too you fucking retard.

...

The Communist Manifesto is not the central work of Communist ideology liberals and reactionaries make it out to be. It's arguably one of Marx's worst works. It was written when he was at the ripe old age of 29 and was intended as, well a manifesto. A statement of beliefs and intent preceding the Revolutions of 1848.

The idea that modern art and brutalist architecture have anything to do with Marxism is frankly ridiculous. Marx concerned himself with political economy and philosophy, not art and architecture.

I'm on my phone, sadly

They are by their very definition you dumbfuck. In Ancient Greece, you think people looked at a fucking wooden chair the same way as they would look at a sculpture?

Ouch. Yeah people like the sun shining over a beautiful river. That's as far as someone can define "objective beauty"

A cross with a Jesus sculpture on it is not the representation of an abstract idea?

Every object has a value beyond its material manifestation.

Well the rest is going a bit too far. If you start with the bankers and stop once you're done you'll probably have to do a quarter as much work.

And I know how much communists hate doing work amiright?

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Trade of goods and services isn't capitalism.

Classic Holla Forums

Then what is?

Capital: Critique of Political Economy

Capital my dude

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Nobody was even saying that. Even though we have a lot of Leftcoms here, they aren't the majority

A big book

So, this is a book about Jews, right?

What exactly do you, yourself, get out of the modern art and brutalist architecture association you're making?

As someone who actually has studied these things, the roots of modern art actually lie in impressionism. So to begin with, your premise is fundamentally false.

A few decades after the initial creation of modern art, abstract modern art movements were created surrounding leftism. But also, in Italy, proto-fascism. These were strong political ideologies at the time, so I have to wonder if you think that every strain of art that was popular among certain people at a certain time inevitably transmits their ideologies onto the viewer.

Like, I like Mad John Martin's work and Bosch, but it doesn't mean I believe in God.

Meanwhile, my brief stint at University gave me a couple liberal professors, a professor who openly used Dubya as a role model and used a science-unrelated class to occasionally promote climategate, and a textbook that had an entire article arguing for the relation between race and criminality. And nobody cared, and neither did I really.

I went to the library and read about Leftism - and also read about Catholicism because it was a library and they had books about things and I could read pretty much whatever I wanted to.

...

But I wasn't proven wrong at all. We just disagree and then you tell me to read more of your literature. Imagine if Christians argued like you.

You haven't made a single consistent post.

So the only work you know of Marx is a short agitprop piece which relates exclusively to the economic and political situation of the mid-19th century? Fucking piss-poor

The Communist Manifesto was the manifesto of the communist party at that time, detailing policies which were appropriate for the time, but only at that time. Same strategies don't work over time. The body of Marxist theory is too long to be fit into a single book, I suggest you actually pick up a reading list and start from the basics.

Killing only bankers will not solve the problems of capitalism. I never told you to read literature, if you can't follow an anonymous conversation, fuck off back to Holla Forums where you can have idiotic "discussions" about what socialism is.

How do you explain pic related?

Thicc

myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-modern-art/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_Art_Exhibition

My belief is based in historical context.

Modern art exists to poison the concept of objectivity and replace all things with subjectivity.

If we have no objective standards for anything, everything is suddenly permissible. You can see how that would be a problem in society we individuals have to get along but all individuals are acting out on their own according to their own seperate set of beliefs on what is rude good bad or immoral.

With no objective standards there is nothing but conflict.

That is the main meme they push that seeps beneath the surface of everything they teach.

This thread is awful.

Jesus christ, when is the last you've read a book? Did Imkampfy rot your mind just like your board?

Capitalism, consumerism, financial parasitism, bankers, fiat money, "free trade": it's all related. No, Marxism is not "pro-banker" and the Rothschilds are not socialists.

What communism? (Officially) Aiming to move towards communism, yes. But that's not the same as actually achieving communism.
Do you actually know how communism has been defined? (And I'll give you a hint here, it's not "anything the government does")

But you are. Ignorant and illiterate. It's clear from just these few points you do not even have the basic grasp of the concepts you're arguing against in this thread. It's all snark, no arguments.
Can you name just one thing where you disagree with Marx?

Hopeless.

Yeah lemme just read up on all this ideology that you cant even summarize for the layman and get back to you in a fucking year.

You know one day one of us is going to do it and you'll see what a faggot you are.

HAHAHAHAHA
Muh class struggle: the book

That shit reads the same way a salesman talks about computers. BUZZWORDS

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You could just read an abridged version

lmfao

abridged versions are for faggots. You're probably living an abridged version of your life.

I told you you don't need to read a book. All you need to do is to read the first paragraph in the fucking Wikipedia article about socialism and communism, you fucking faggot. And I say that even though Wikipedia clearly has a porky bias.

lmao

Good one kid

Ah.

Well it's good to know what your position on this is, then.

Confirmed for having never read Das Kapital.

It is, if anything, a bit of a tedious slog.

This is how he opens Capital. Not much of a sales pitch.

The main problem is this: You claim to be arguing against something that you clearly do not understand.
Outside your art comment, "muh gorillions" and pretending people here are somehow pro-banker, it's not clear what you are actually disagreeing with or what your arguments are. (Beyond the typical snark)

Point out the flaws in Marx world view. Point out the flaws in socialism. Explain how the Soviet Union at it's height was already communist (even post-communist as you argued) and why they weren't ML.
Can you even do one of those things?

I don't need higher level thinking to deal with a political ideology that is pants an head retarded

And what are your thoughts on said position?

I'm pretty sure "It starved hundreds of millions of people to death" is a good enough reason to be against a given thing. I have a communist manifesto in my bathroom that I've be slogging through but it's hard to pick up when I have Dale Carnegie books right next to the damn thing.

The core of your argument against my shitposting is true though. Why am I trying to tell you your ideology is shit if I only know the pop version of it.

Hundreds of millions of people starved to death? What about the Katyn Forrest massacre? I mean either of these things is pretty terrible.

How can you just ignore these terrible things that have happened?

I am impressed, this is an even less intelligent response than what I expected.

Anyway, to stop giving attention to the Holla Forumsedancers, we need to counterargue against the obvious bullshit spewed by these media through packaged images that would really make you think, like the Stalin image I mentioned, where the population before and after the billions killed is compared, for example. This must be done for the most common pseudo arguments spewed by Holla Forumstards, libertardian neoliberals, and conservatives alike.

My point is that salesmen spout buzzwords & common sense while saying nothing about the actual "meat&potatoes" of computers.

Pretty much what Marx does in your highlights

Doesn't that just make you a Holla Forumsedancer?

Post the image you're referring to I want to see it.

I am impressed, your lack of self awareness is even less than the typical leftist

Do not bother anymore. Unless they come here in good faith, which they are shown not to at the beginning of the thread, it is a waste of energy and time to "argue" against such autism.

Wew lad.

Where the fuck did Marx use anything that could even remotely be considered a "buzzword".

And what the fuck do computers have to do with anything? Marx died well over a half a century before even the most rudimentary electrical computer would be invented.

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It's been awhile Cristi

gorillions (or whatever other sourceless number from muh big black book) had nothing to do with the economical/social function of communism. i could easily use "uhh people died lol" as a refutation of capitalism in every possible implementation by the same reasoning

SO DEEP & THOUGHT PROVOKING

cause people don't starve and die all the time under capitalism

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WEW

BIG
BLACK
BOOK

I think separating people into bourgeoisie and proletariat is a MASSIVE oversimplification of the class dynamic for starters. I don't think it applied back then and as society has grown more complex even more so it doesn't apply now.

You stupid or just disingenuous?

Doesn't look like he mentioned Russia, so you're probably both.

Buh buh but muh sorosbucks

That was the population of the Soviet Union, which, in case you were unaware, included more than just Russia.

What terrible things? The people that died in USSR it's because they were a useless to society.
Because when you don't get ride of the corrupted people you start to get the Putin's, the Gorbachevs…the Hilalries, the Trumps and other forms of cancer and corruption apologists. Why is that so hard to grasp?

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The difference is in WHY people die in capitalism vs communism though isn't it?

Why do people die because of capitalism?

Also I'd like to point out that America isn't governed by capitalism but by a representative republic. Which is what I'm for. The economic system needs some reworking, but I think it's too complex for either of us to work out to be honest.

too bad he spent it on spironolactone regimen

Because they're the dominant ideology. They have the money and cultural relevance to say whatever they want

yeah exactly. you haven't explained WHY people die because of communism so why do i need to explain why people die because of capitalism?

i mean i could, the point is you can't.

There are still some basic standards, like symmetry and (otherwise) healthy body.

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I thought starvation because of government mismanagement and shots to the back of the head for disagreeing with communism are the reasons people died because of communism.

I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you.

Now you go ahead and spell it out for me since I've met your terms.

Me too. "Prager University" Jewish propaganda coated up in "muh reasonable position" bullshit.

As said earlier, the Soviet Union actually helped end the cycle of famines. The Holodomor was horrible. (But so was the Bengal famine, which occurred in British controlled India) And in 20/20 hindsight that could have been greatly mitigated.
Mao's policies were during the great leap forward turned out to be an agricultural disaster, no doubt. But that was a problem of central planning, not workers owning the means of productions and managing their own farms and workplaces (i.e. socialism).
Now central planning is advocated in some forms of Marxism (which aims to establish socialism). And it has also brought great benefit: Increases in literacy, the end of famines (The kind of things seen in Ukraine and China used to occur periodically), rapid industrialization (especially in the Soviet Union), and the general transformation of predominantly agrarian societies into global powers.
Later on it stagnated, for which there are many reasons (One being that the systems of the Eastern Bloc weren't able to deal with frivolous consumer goods, the disproportional focus on heavy industry, and economic liberalization in the final years that destabilized the economies).

We're not ignoring them, but the reasons these things happened (apart from Katyn, which was debauched and cynical) are a lot more nuanced than artifact ridden infographics and typical propaganda make them seem. Nor do they invalidate socialism, which often wasn't involved in these disasters.
You'll find plenty of people here criticizing Marxism-Leninism (as practiced in the Soviet Union and China)

Do you actually know what socialism is? Even just the wikipedia definition?

Jesus jannies, you don't need to delete his posts. How the fuck can we laugh at him that way?

1) He never mentioned the proletariat or bourgeoisie in that quote, retard. Way to prove you didn't even read it.
2) Yes, you either own and control the means of production or you don't. At it's most basic, people can be divided into propertied and unpropertied, or bourgeoisie and proletariat.

W E W
E
W

Show me one country in the world where nobody dies of starving. Just one.

you mean starvation because of ukraine refusing to collectivize during a famine due to weather conditions? you don't know what you're talking about

I was referring to the communist manifesto which is now sitting on my desk, not whatever quote you were talking about.

Explain managers, and explain accountants. They are roles that are not strictly worker or owner roles but they bear the responsibility that an owner would in a business.

Without a patriarch in complete control of the final say in what happens in a business there is chaos. Someone has to call the shots. Democracy is a cancer. The workers will never own the means of production because the workers don't know what the fuck to do with the means of production.

Ignoring his duty in the argument. I met your terms, now meet mine you faggot.

Good point. But I wouldn't starve to death would I? Or be shot in the back of the head up against a wall with my entire family?

Trying to read something you disagree with at your core is a difficult undertaking. You act all smug because you'll never bother with it in your life, you bitch.

Go read Mein Kampf and get back to me.

i can't argue with a non-argument. i've already explained how the gorrilions meemee can easily apply to capitalism too. i've already met your ridiculous terms

..yes. you would. the threat of starvation is what keeps you functioning under capitalism in the first place

This is your mind on relativism ladies and gentlemen.

He has no objective standards for right and wrong, let alone wrong and "wronger"

Everything is permissible if you're a relativist.

It works in Rojava ("Kurds" in Syria). And it has worked elsewhere.
The idea that workers need a whip to get them to do anything is a myth. Many businesses can be run without management. (Speaking from experience)

That's one of the most interesting things of reading political works. If it doesn't raise your eyebrows it can't be too interesting can it?

wasn't it like 2-3 mil?

I assume you were replying to me?

We were saying that the Capital: A Critique of Political Economy was the central work of communism, not the Communist Manifesto, you said that Capital was filled with buzzwords and read like a sales pitch, I provided you with the opening lines from Capital here and now you're back to talking about the Communist Manifesto. Are you trying to make it look like you're doing this is bad faith?

Wage workers. They don't own anything. That said, managers frequently take up the role of petit bourgeoisie.

Damn, you should let Mondragon and their 75,000 employees know that their business model is impossible.

Says the retard so concerned about starvation when you surely live in a country with starvation.
I mean..i've been to Norway, according to the HDI rank it's the number 1 once country and i've still saw homeless people and people forming a line to go pick up some food at the church every single night.

...

Can you provide a link or something? Don't be a "it's not my job to educate you" faggot.

I don't follow

I didn't say that someone else did. I'ma different guy.

This is why getting rid of post ids is stupid.

All that means is "guy who makes a little more money than me doing something I don't understand the value of so I want to kill him."

what? i hate relativism. i was never implying communism is as bad as capitalism. my whole point is capitalists aren't thinking (perhaps intentionally) dialectically

Since you asked about Rojava, it works in Kerala as well. Another modern example of working socialism (within the restraints of the state of India, of course).

W E W
E
W

not him but what? leftists explicitly understand the value of labor. that's why they want to put control in the hands of the people who create that value in the first place

The one who isn't dialectical is you.

this was exactly my point. it's exactly what you and your Holla Forums buddies haven't been thinking about this entire time

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cooperativeeconomy.info/rojavas-social-economy-an-eyewitness-account/
kurdishquestion.com/oldarticle.php?aid=the-social-economy-in-rojava
cooperativeeconomy.info/rojava-the-economic-branches-in-detail/

This should give a basic background.

Ever read Ted Kazcynski or Savitri Devi? Reading books that espouse views radically different from the status quo is interesting. Besides, what is the point of only reading something you already agree with beforehand?

I mean the right wing is dominant, you double nigger

No, leftists think exploitation is inherently a bad thing instead of the force that makes the wheel turn.

People have built entire societies off of exploitation. You have something you want, and I will give you want you need to get it at a price that is worth it to you but not actually worth it to an expert.

That's exploitation. That's how it works.

Thanks now I'll have to read it. You have to understand that I stopped and laughed at "Democratic autonomy and women's liberation"

These are just tools to drive people apart into more and more separate classes so were all at each others throats.

Literally every non-schizo right wing argument ever:

Oh, is Mein Kampf not that picture?

Please stop user you're making me cringe.

I talked about the difficulty of reading something you inherently disagree with and accuse you of never bothering with doing so in your life.

You post some smug ass bullshit implying that you wont ever read something you disagree with in your life.

It's just fucking sad just stop posting and kill yourself. Why did I even have to explain that jesus christ.

Did he actually say this?

but the cyclical history meme is proven by history itself. It's more like a spiral

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem

i fucking hate prager
the production values are so good though

wow is almost as if you want everyone in the thread to think you're retarded.

… We are even witnessing a revival of Hume's "is-ought" criticism, which denies speculative thought the right to reason from the "what-is" to the "what-should-be." This positivistic mousetrap is a problem not in logic but in ethics—notably, the right of the ethical "should-be" to enjoy an objective status. The problem of constituting an objective ethics, which confounded the Frankfurt School, is no less serious than Hume's quarrel with religion. Speculative philosophy by definition claims that reason can project beyond the given state of affairs, whether to Plato's exemplary domain of forms or Marx and Kropotkin's visions of a cooperative society. To remain within the "what-is" in the name of logical consistency is to deny reason the right to assert goals, values, and social relationships that provide a voice to the claims of ecology as a social discipline. - social-ecology.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Chaia.2.Thinking_Ecologically.pdf

Dialectical naturalism coherently overcomes Hume's Guillotine through Aristotle's conception of potentiality and actuality
and Hegel's incorporation of it into his dialectic.

I've read plenty of things I disagree with, my man, I just don't see what new things Mein Kampf would bring to the table. It seems like your typical reactionary scribbling, but if there's something more to it, I might give it a read. Is there something more to it, or is it basically that image?

I disagree quite strongly. On art, we're nearly diametrically opposed and I don't really feel the need or desire to elaborate further than what's been implied - our outlooks are very different, and I don't anticipate either of us changing our minds.

On society I'll be willing to wank a bit: I see moral and ethical reasoning as something either innate or very close to innate. However, like about every other idea, these ideas are expressed socially and subject to flaws and change. This is true regardless of context, and the survival of a custom seen as having moral backing basically only relies on the survival of those who believe in it or the survival of the knowledge that it is or was a custom. Many of these are disregarded as superstitions over time, but it doesn't mean that at some point someone believed them to be objective rules about how people should conduct themselves.

Morality in itself is, I believe, driven by natural human instincts, but the morals which develop from these instincts are not objectively "true" ideas. Morality is ultimately personal belief and not subject to reason or logic.

Ethics, in philosowank talk, are a product of consensus and subject to reason. In order for acknowledging subjectivity to cause total and utter chaos, we'd first have to assume that most people who acknowledge subjectivity also see no reason, as human beings, to prevent murder or rape or theft.

If what I seek is some sort of personal gain not related to murder, rape, or theft, then my going on a murder-rape-theft spree that I otherwise would not just because I know that I am physically capable of doing so would make no sense. And if I understand that someone else would not appreciate any of these things being done to them, and that I myself would not, I have little reason to immediately break laws that I agree with even if I derive their validity from my own personal agreement.

What good will you be in 20 years?

Well this looks like a absolutely objective graph.

Get firefox or one of the forks (palemoon, waterfox, etc.), get greasemonkey extension, get Block Youtube Users for greasemonkey. With that you can block all the cancer youtube throws at you.
Sounds like Fedbook is full of idiots and not worth posting on.

HAHAHAHAHA
Muh struggle: the book
That shit reads the same way a salesman talks about computers. BUZZWORDS

...

...

Someone on normiebook I'm "friends" with keeps reposting this stuff. It's amazing how people can blindly follow think-tank propaganda without giving it a second thought.

yeah I saw this shitty channel as well, the only way to counteract this would be to do a similar thing except for the left.

Go read Human Action and get back to me.

LOL everyone knows it was more than that.

Dennis Prager.

The Heritage Foundation and all those right-wing "libertarian" conservative cliques are funded by the Koch Brothers.

Including Reason Magazine.

There's another thing to mention:

Persistence.

They've been doing videos for years and they used to have 200/300 views each until a few months ago.

It helped that they started using females as spokespeople.

Kek, what an egofag. I forgot it was named after the guy paying for it.

Somebody needs to start a channel that simply quickly debunks every new PragerU video that gets released. Whenever a PragerU video gets posted, one could just link to the video dedicated to debunking it and end the bullshit train right then and there. It would be very easy.

It doesn't need to be fancy or anything, just a spoken step-by-step refutation overtop the original PU video would be enough.

Fuck Dennis Prager, his fake university and his other Zionist neo-con friends like Ben Shapiro and Sam Harris. They keep pushing propaganda that America is #1 and that you've gotta love being an American over all else like a true patriot, but they all shill for Israel, a completely different country tens of thousands of miles away from The United States and even own property there. Hell, Ben Shapiro even took his pregnant wife to Jerusalem so she could give birth to their kids in "The Holy Land". Ain't that patriotic. Buncha fucking fence hopping hypocrites…

For a long time I thought this shit has something to do with Prague. I think he deliberately chose that name so you associate it with academic life or an academic school of a great European city.

His last name's Prager LOL.

BTW they 2 million likes on Facebook, even more than their YouTube channel

Yeah, I realized that by now, lmao

Only romantic philistines hate brutalism.

We aren’t liberals, were socialists.

Reminds me of this

this is literally the only good one I've seen, and it doesn't even touch on the most blatantly obvious cause of declining art standards, ie capitalism

...

this video is not art.
the sole objective standard of art is whether or not is whether or not it helps push a social-democratic modernist agenda.

this is neoliberal Entartete Kunst, public funding will be refused, planning permission denied to any gallery which seeks to show it, public service air time refused to anyone who wants to talk about it, and lawsuits brought against any who advertise it.

I actually have read Mein Kampf and it wasn't hard at all.

The only difficulty is in the length. The same could be said of any book that long. Which The Communist Manifesto is not, you could finish that thing in an hour.

God I love watching Holla Forums and Holla Forums fight

You're both total fucking retards and habitually dishonest, so it's a fair fight, really.

Please do the world a favor and kill each other.

gtfo normie

...

Imagine being incredibly high, and attempting to navigate an environment like that. That's basically the definition of hell, and anybody who would want to reside in a place like that is a soulless psychopath.

Are people actually this retarded or is this subversion? Can someone explain to me, please?

t. /r/neoliberal

guaranteed responses errytim

It's seriously like you niggers are incapable of not biting bait

No but seriously, you're all fucking retarded, kys famalam

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God the projection is AMAZING

You dumb fucks do nothing but project onto other people

You're convinced you're the proletariat (same sort of delusion Holla Forums suffers from when they think of themselves as the Aryans) when the proletariat has rejected you over and over again

You're both out of touch, you're both starting from predefined conclusions and working backwards looking for whatever will prop up your conclusions like you always do

Your ability to cannibalize (both yours and Holla Forums's) would be impressive if it weren't honestly fucking sad

I don't think you understand what the proletariat are because you and me are both it.

What's your ideology smugface?

...

Grade-A political analysis here.

You aren't the proletariat. You're almost certainly some middle-class (possibly even upper-middle-class) dipshit with some degree of post-secondary education under your belt.

I'm sure as hell not a Tankie like you, asshole. Go gargle Drano and visit your dear leaders in whatever lies beyond.

(checked)

Not an argument.

For what it's worth, I will say I am absolutely an anarchist. Beyond that, I'm wholly unconvinced any one of you fuckmooks has any sort of real answer for anything.

I work for a wage, own no businesses, and I'm not a politician, therefore I'm a prole, end of discussion. Your class has nothing to do with wealth, it's about your relationship to the means of production.

.t Holla Forums projecting

kys

It's easy to insult everybody but not playing with open cards. Very dishonest, sad

AnCap detected

Which flavor?

He doesn't know the definition of proletariat. I wonder which flavor of "anarchism" could be behind this

And I bet you thought all the "bourgeoisie" the communists shot held the means of production

Oopsie daisy

You're not a prole, and if gods-forbid the revolution you want does actually come I guarantee you'll probably be one of the first people that gets lined up against a wall.

Undecided, actually. About all I know for sure is that both AnCaps and AnComs are fucking deluded, but at least AnCaps don't want to redistribute my fucking toothbrush.

is this what they call Poe's law?

...

Don't cut yourself with thay edge. Are you some sort of Christian Anarchist or any faggotery like that?

Hmm…did you just blow in from Stupid Town?

READ
STEVE
KEEN

Agnostic Atheist, but my religion or lack thereof does not inform my politics, because only a retard lets religion inform his politics

Nigger what.

14y old confirmed

HEY LOOK EVERYONE, IT'S
INVESTOR BEAR
GETTING READY FOR ANOTHER DAY ON WALL-STREET!

Here's the thing:

In order for public ownership of the means of production to work, each worker has to also be a business manager. You can't even get by being a JACK of all trades, you have to be a MASTER of all trades. Furthermore, the risk of running a business is now placed upon EVERY SINGLE WORKER. Capitalist systems, for all their problems, will out-compete a system where workers are required to own the means of production because everyone gets to specialize in something they're good at and not worry about the other parts of the job they may or may not have any interest in.

I bet you faggots think running a business is nothing but fun and fucking games.

oh shit it's aynclap poster

prepare your fidget spinners for some supreme autism

This has nothing to do with the factual distinction between property that you use and property that you rent to others.
If you're not going to respond and make an argument then make your own thread and take it to there. Otherwise you'll just be banned for shitting up this thread.

I guess you never heard of OGAS, the proposed Soviet project to automate management through cybernetics.

Why can't we just vote on management democratically and impeach him when he fails?

You can, it's called "quit working there, tell everyone who thinks about working there that management is fucking retarded, and let the problem fix itself as retarded managers find themselves with no employees"

And we don't live in the real world? Reality is not your sterile abstractions and petty two-man-make-a-deal agreements.

Doesn't seem to be slowing Walmart down any.

The funny thing is, probably the only reason Walmart is still in business is because of government. Walmart is the very definition of "welfare queen".

Yes but the high turnover will fix bad managers meme is not doing a damn thing for walmart.

That's our point, what ancaps want is essentially feudalism. They don't like capitalism, they want to regress to before it.

Just when you think Holla Forums can't be any more culturally and historically ignorant. You realize modern art was illegal in the soviet union and was directly promoted by the CIA right.

...

idiot.
all you need to know is how to do your own job and how to vote for other people who'll do administrative work. at the simplest level you don't have to abolish the division of labour to abolish external ownership.

see: litany of worker-owned airlines historically, mondragon meme, etc.

Those stats are so fucking inflated it's ridiculous
That's literally 33 times more than the most generous estimates of Suharto's regime

The thing is, you haven't even really established why external ownership is in and of itself a bad thing.

What in the fuck do you have against someone starting a business by accumulating enough resources to start it and hire on people as needed to help him keep the damn thing running? If all parties involved can come to an agreement on what constitutes fair compensation for their part in the business, what in the fuck is your problem with it?

Have you looked at the caring meter recently?
There's more to life on this planet than money. There's also bears living in the clouds, and you are really fucking those guys right now.

Also, the voluntary nature of the agreement is purely illusory. Nearly every economy has had a labour surplus imposed on it since the 1960s, the alternative to taking the job in undesirable conditions is potential starvation. The use of the threat of starvation to coerce someone into work (arbitrarily refusing them the ability to use unused land to feed themselves, etc.) is a form of violence even if it doesn't fall under the memetic NAP.

And even then they clearly aren't just earning enough to keep the business running in most cases, which is patently obvious.

Also I've already told you: Read Steve Keen and stop believing in neoclassical meme economics picked up by pop-cultural osmosis. I bet you believe the supply curve isn't flat. Keen's not even a fucking socialist lmao read the damn book.

Source?

aljazeera.com/programmes/101east/2012/12/2012121874846805636.html
What's your source for 100,000,000
I'm a commie btw, I just don't want something this wrong to be used against us

get good recording equipment and a good voice and just hire some fuck on fiverr to make an animated video of what you say. are those hand drawn pages still in fashion?

I think the problem is that Youtube is cancer.

I have no problem whatsoever with fucking helping people who have a shit lot in life. I don't even think the idea of social safety nets is a terrible thing, really - it's a laudable thing, but if left in the hands of a government (like it usually is) it always gets turned into an excuse for people to not DO SOMETHING OF WORTH with their lives (and I'm referring to people who prefer to FOREVER live in the safety net as well as the people in the government whose jobs are perpetuated by the people who are content to do nothing but sit there in the safety net). Fucking DO SOMETHING, for FUCK'S SAKE. Turn something you enjoy into something that produces entertainment for others, find some way to do something besides NOTHING, and for the love of fuck don't INCENTIVIZE doing nothing.

I don't even resent a company turning a profit, as long as it doesn't turn into a situation where no one benefits but the goddamn CEO. By all means, turn a fucking profit and be successful, but instead of buying your fifth fucking Lamborghini invest in your workers and your communities. The problem is not external ownership, the problem is not turning a profit, the problem is assholes and it was always assholes. If I thought having some sort of government regulation actually fucking HELPED I'd spring for that, but as it turns out governments are even more parasitic than assholes who insist on having a Lamborghini for every day of the weekday, and nothing screams "asshole who revels in their own mediocrity" quite like a government worker.

Sorry, I originally misread the numbers. (I'm tired as fuck right now)
For the video, I saved it from another another thread but looking at it again it looks like a lot of it is BS. Thanks for correction me I won't post it again.

The first world has a labour surplus, they have no choice. The structures for entrepreneurship in modern capitalism create unreasonable barriers to entry. The solution to this isn't deregulation (which has thusfar only preserved those barriers.), but a fundamental alteration in the structure of modern capitalism, or indeed the outright removal of that structure. (Particularly since when you say do something you presumably mean do something that will earn money, a let's player on welfare as a parasite and a let's player on patreon as an entrepreneur…)

You could abolish welfare tomorrow and the only difference would be a spike in the crime rate.

Yeah, that'll happen. Demand ethical consumption!
No, the problem is power structures. You can have all the good intentions in the world and when they start promoting you in a bank you're still going to do horrible things because that's what the power structure demands of you. (The same is also broadly true of economics, hence why it remains dominated by the new-neoclassical-synthesis.)

Also
growth was consistently higher in the new-deal era. and, at risk of repeating myself: READ STEVE KEEN, particularly with reference to the bits at the back. markets are not magical freedom machines, government intervention and regulation is not universally harmful, and the demand curve can take any shape whatsoever except bending back on itself.

stop talking like an ancap memelord and learn some things about how capitalism functions.

I bet you don't even know what my flag represents.

PragerU bear

That requires a budget. Look at (vomits in mouth a little) Feminist Frequency before and after the kickstarter. You basically have to hire someone to do the job of graphic design.

And to be honest I think the whole "text that repeats what's being said, moving graphics, etc." thing is extremely condescending. Maybe it's just me but I'd rather just look at someone's face while they say what they have to say.

This is why leninism is the only way forward. We basically will never be able to get enough people on our side without literally killing shills and their organizations.

Can you name one member of the political class who is anti-capitalist?

Actually there have been quite a number of studies that show that firms run on democratic principles are equally if not more efficient than traditionally capitalist firms.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001979399504900104

Wrong. Firms can be run democratically with elected worker representatives appointing managers. See the above firms like this are actually more efficient then typical capitalist firms.

Trips of truth.

Wait, hold on. Why are the elected worker representatives necessary? Why not just have the workers directly appoint a manager without the middleman?

...

BWAAHAHAHA

it's called the mainstream fucking media and nearly every fucking official institution in the west

oh wait, I guess it's technically true that they're not pushing your brand of communism, but another brand of subvertive nation wrecking fun

PragerU are classical neocons btw, but at least they've got some alright points here and there

subbed on all 17 shill accounts

The fuck? Have you ever even listened to him? He has a degree in history and he definitely uses it.

You actually believe that the western establishment is communist don't you? That's some next level delusion my friend.

Look Holla Forums, the media isn't promoting my brand of communism because it's not promoting any brand of communism. The sooner you stop letting memes determine your political views the sooner you'll realize how stupid you really are and work to fix that.

it's promoting socialism and leftism

look at this shit

broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/how-meme-culture-is-getting-teens-into-marxism

look how absolutely kosher and pathetic this is. Communism is a safe and not at all dangerous ideology

lmfao. Mass media is entirely in the hands of capitalists.

also >vice

It really would be great if Holla Forums delusions would be realized, we'd have media telling people about the abolition of production for profit, wage slavery, and classes.

But delusions are not reality. Liberals sharing memes about what they believe communism is are still liberals. You can call cows horses all day but they are not fit for riding. See flag, please.

I'm saying it's kosher. You won't be ostracized or banned or persecuted if you are a Marxist in any college campus or job you have. Most urban college millennials are marxist cucks, who spout your memes about equality and the rich along with all the SJW shit which you don't like because it's so inherently cringeworth yand shitty but was invented by Marxists like Lukac, Adorno Marcuse etc who were all Marxists

The Holla Forumsack is actually partially right for once - communism and socialism are hip and trendy in academia, and in many media outlets. I'm pretty sure I could find a Mother Jones or Salon article that was nominally supportive of at least a few tenets of socialism and most certainly PLENTY of articles that were supportive of progressivism which goes hand-in-hand with socialism.

What the Holla Forumsack is too stupid to realize is that HIS ideology is pretty much just socialism with a nationalistic wrapper anyway. The only meaningful difference I see between most socialists and most Nazis is that the Nazis embrace tribalism whereas the socialists find tribalism inconvenient and find something else to replace it with.

please refer to 's flag.

By your retarded definitions you are also edgy liberals sharing memes since you do fuck all else and just complain about capitalism which is what critical theorists have been doing

Absolutely retarded. Fascists were all about restoring power to the bourgeoisie. They never did anything for the abolishment of capitalism, rather reinforcing it at its weakest.

Non-sequitur. Our business is to abolish capitalism, but it first must be studied. You should actually read Adorno himself rather than rely of third hand accounts.

yes i'm sure employers and owners will be thrilled to hear you advocate for their property to be repossessed and their positions eliminated. that's sure to guarantee your job security

and all you do is share memes and complain about minorities and immigrants. what's your point?

really makes you think

how are students supposed to 'abolish capitalism'?

Those libtard rags are socdem at best, leftism is most certainly not trendy in academia, progressivism does not go hand-in-hand with leftism, and Nazis are capitalists not socialist.

Your post couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

History and sociology undergraduates cover surface-level Marxism at most and only because he's a historically important thinker in both fields.

The Nazis nationalized industry, and they legitimized this under the concept of the nation being the rightful property of the German people and by extension all of its industry - thus, the means of production belonged to the German people via the German nation.

Critical theorists were trying to warn us about late capitalism, the commodification of all forms of culture and the rise of mass media as a shield of the ruling class. What you complain about is in fact capitalist post-modernism.

Oh wow. I didn't know they were teaching communism in universities. Marx at best will be touched upon or embellished to appear as a humanist in universities.

Read Marx, please. You're probably being retarded on purpose, but nationalizing, which means the state as the capitalist, is not socialism in any way.

You do know that the word privatization was invented to describe the Nazi government's economic policy, right? To say nothing of the fact that those businesses were still controlled by owners who profited from them on a market. The Nazi economy was pretty much the embodiment of the "corporate capitalism" that modern right-libertarians complain about.

Also, libertarian socialism, i.e. what most socialists and socialist ideologies are, doesn't advocate nationalization of industry.

I specifically stated "another brand of communism", which technically in your book of "this isn't true communism!" probably isn't communism, so yes we can agree on that.

Call it progressiveness, or socialism.

Capitalism is just one axis of operation. Corporatism would be a more accurate description anyhow.

The point here lies in the social politics that's undeniably being pushed across all mediums to fit within the progressive narrative, which are inherently "marxist" in origin; abolition of the family unit, religion, historical & ethnic identity etc. for natives of the west. The erosion of these traits is engineered for the specific purpose of easing the masses into more globalized and consolidated power structures; It's much easier to rule over a mass of mongrels without an identity than it is to assert your will on several different homogenous nations with strong historical & cultural ties to their land.

This shit is exactly what happened in the USSR, but I guess that wasn't real communism either (spoiler alert; the concept of "true" communism isn't compatible with human nature for a number of reasons and never will be, the sooner you realize this and stop being stuck in ideological abstractions the faster you can wake the fuck up and orient yourself ideologically towards something a bit more pragmatic and relevant to the real world).

Now I guess you can nitpick my terminology from the vast works of useless ideology you've surely read, or you can try to grasp the essence rather than the delivery.

you're being deliberately retarded. University students and pretty much everyone knows the basic arguments of Marxism.

What they probably don't teach is Marxist Leninism because it's a shitty failure nor do they teach Marxist Leninist revolutionary theory because it's a shitty failure nor do they teach about Anarchist nihilistic rage because nobody cares about it or other shit that you like here. But you could argue Marxist talking points in a public environment in a university or on TV and nobody will give a fuck and you will probably get brownie points for it while on the other hand most people subscribe to reactionary shit but they think it but they aren't allowed to say it because they will be ostracized so from that you can see who has more power when it comes to control of culture and society

Socialism is inherently authoritarian, how in the blueberry fuck do you reconcile socialism with any kind of libertarianism? You can't institute the changes required for socialism without some kind of authority regulating the everloving SHIT out of nearly every aspect of society, whether that authority wears the mask of "The People" or "The Government" or what-have-you.

of course they do

such as?

I'd actually love if these students became Marxists, but they end up as liberals most of the time. Marx is slightly relevant in those areas, but the body of his work is not. They are not Marxists. Is teaching about Conservatism, Libertarianism and Liberalism in schools also brainwashing according to you?

Not a single argument was presented. It rests on you to prove that any of these goals are associated with Marx and communism.

Look buddy, corporatism is a form of capitalism, progressivism isn't Marxist or leftist, and I'd like it if you could provide an explanation of why human nature is incompatible with leftism.

I don't think you know what Marxist argument even looks like.

Here's a hint: Complaining about wealth inequality isn't one

You're probably hopeless, but if you want to prove otherwise maybe a cursory glance at wikipedia articles on different types of libertarian socialism, as a glace at their article on worker coops, would help.

Wikipedia is so horrifically biased and prone to idiotic edit-warring on politically charged articles (like the one you suggested) that I'm not sure it would even serve as a suitable jumping-off point for research. If you know of a PRIMARY SOURCE outlining exactly how in the fuck a "libertarian socialist" system would work, THAT would be a good start.

Having read those primary sources I can promise you that wikipedia's articles on the subject are not biased.

I almost thought this was too obvious, but then again this is Holla Forums where faggots gather to argue semantics about the terminology of great works of fanfiction, also known as ideology, instead of trying to understand the world on the basis of naturalism.

How exactly do you think we want to organize society? I'm really curious what you think we think socialism looks like.

You have yet to explain how behavior is not dominated primarily by our material conditions on being social animals capable of organizing society beyond mere monkey tribes. If this supposed immutable human nature existed, we would not have moved past the tribe and into different organizations. Vuelve a intentar.

Also, it seems to me like you are once again trying to argue against strawmen of socialism.

Not to mention I've yet to hear an explanation of why a rigid human nature as presented by opponents of leftism is incompatible with socialism.

the Vatican

Why is this fucking thread still going on?

Lots of autism on 8ch

Adoption studies.
>>>/suicide/

because lefties have no money

I didn't see any argument. Stay assblasted faggot.

Even better video on the same subject, goes into great lengths on modernism/postmodernism's nature as a money laundering scheme for porky:
youtube.com/watch?v=5tMtV5p0s4E

The left does have stuff like this, but its all about vaginas, faggotry, and islam

Get out of highschool.

This. Liberal arts are mandatory, and being a non-conformist to socialist ideology ensures your grades will suffer.

You have to go

That is a symbol of motherhood and fertility, not sexuality and beauty.

Liberals got all their shitty ideas from socialists. You were faggots way before faggotry was cool

he's right, leftists have their heads so far up their ass they don't realize why people don't want to watch their shit.

top tier analysis

STOP
BUMPING