About "Gender"

Fair enough, you got your (you)

Back to Holla Forums with your homo identity politics.

Gender is unscientific.
The only experiments performed to prove the concepts have failed. Dr John Money's experiment is the most well known if you want to look it up.

...

Yeah, no.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/Testosterone?act=2

Men and women have different brains and this difference makes them act different from one another.
Gender is real. Deal with it.

laboriacuboniks.net/

Well then I feel compelled to laugh at you for being another tankie with another authority fetish. This time it's the authority of nature you rabidly and angrily feel the need to defend.

Wrong. You are against trans people, worshiping the authority of nature as some sort of eternal truth.

what in the flying fuck is this

It's post-leftists smacking their dick on your table.

read an actual book please

Leftypol don't you go all sjw on me. OP is mostly right, but the whole masculinity, femininity crap is a spook. Hormones affect behaviour, but centering your sense of person on that is ridiculous. Its like walking around calling rich people ma'am and sir, albeit less classcucked.

...

Keep worshiping your spooks.

OP is not right, he's merely appealing to the authority of nature to tell people they aren't allowed to do things he doesn't like.

Gender is not real. Sex is real. Men and Women have different brains due to sexual dimorphism.

Yeah, but your language isn't the language of international commerce so suck my dick. Nobody cares what chimpanzees have to ook about.

A question of definition. In my OP I defined gender as the values purely socially attributed, any biological behavioral determination is out of the question and part of the sexuality. The fact that gender theory struggles so much with definitions and and has to constantly play the language game sort of implies that the whole thing is extremely vague bullshit.

As an example, girls wearing pink would clearly be part of the gender but guys behaving more aggressive due to testosterone would be part of the sexuality.

What the fuck is this even? Calling somebody a "he" or a "she" is merely a descriptive act, it's like calling a chemist a chemist.

I also don't hate trans people, I just don't believe you should cut a teenage boys dick off because he suffers from what's categorized as gender dysphoria by the ICD-10, which is apperently mostly an environmental condition anyway.

Considering you are letting your emotions override your sense of understanding my point you shouldn't be the one calling others spooked.

I'm sorry to tell you but natural science is authoritarian.

Not only do other languages and cultures have a concept of "gender", in cases like Indian cultures it is a lot more advanced than "men" and "women".

Dugin was right.
America must be destroyed.

If it walks like a girl, talks like a girl, acts like a girl, has "female" on all its official documents, has a vagina, and was born a male, then this individual will of course never be a girl in the sense that a born female is. Never. They will never be the same. I recognize this.
Still, why prevent these people from doing what they desire? Just because they're teens?

Recognizing culturally-derived gender roles as something distinct from innate sex traits is important, so that we can subsequently abolish them.

The problem is that modern gender-trending has done the precise opposite and *embraced* these constructs, with the caveat that one can choose between them freely. You may want to embody hatred of women one day, but pretend to be a whiskey-downing lumberjack stud the next. How fucking reassuring.

People with severe gender dysphoria who undergo sex reassignment surgery mostly report better physical and mental health post-op and stats accordingly point to a decrease in suicide rates.

Denying trans people the possibility to transition on the grounds that "it's not real and gross lmao dont you watch south park" is like denying medication to a person with severe depression and justifying it by saying "dude brighten up the world really is not that bad".

Well done rummaging out some obscure example of gender definitions by some native tribes.

I said most languages, and this is a fact. Gender is a very modern creation done explicitly in the Anglosphere. Fowler's "Modern English Usage" from 1926 states:

Huh? "die und der" are German gender pronouns. It ain't just an English thing.

Wouldn't that be a part of gender roles instead of the gender itself?
They mostly don't tbh, you have to be a legal adult to consent with that surgery.
There have been some exceptions in more recent years but IIRC those are in very specific cases and not at all systematic.
Ehh. I'd say its both a bit of nature and nurture, and the data seems to suggest that, some data suggests that gender dysphoria in some of the teens that have it disappears later on and they end up being homossexual. In other teens with it the condition persists.
I'm an actual non-anglo tranny and for what it's worth I don't think you're being transphobic either.
Now sage because this is mostly a medical issue and has nothing to do with actual politics

I was talking about the differences between gender and sex, not the existence of lack of pronouns (Finnish for example doesn't really have any). Die and der are purely grammatical pronouns.

This tbh.
I tried posting some trans-positive gender abolitionist stuff but the leftcom dismissed it because he
doesn't actually read anything

would i be right to draw an analogy to the ship of theseus?
i mean functionally it's the same thing. the relevancy of "being a girl" is highly contextual.

what if i deny them medication because the world really is that bad and people need to see it with the glasses off instead of drugging themselves to function in a dysfunctional society?

And it affects our behavior, our likes and dislikes and how we feel.
In the end a man acts like a man because that's how he naturally feels.
Gender is a description of the expected behavior based on how the different sexes act and their natural affinities. It isn't merely a societal imposition like you fags would love it to be. It comes from the inside not the outside. That said there are a few dumb things that really are social constructs, but overall gender works as a good description of the sexes alignment.

People should have to wait until they're 18 to do it, at the very least.

err, on.

they do.

the most they do for people below that age is hand out hormone blockers so that they don't have a fucking beard by the time they're old enough. if they decide actually nah, they're fine with their birth sex, they just go through puberty as normal but later.

Except the suicide rate amongst surgically altered transsexuals is extremely high. If we concern ourselves purely with human welfare, we must take in account that other ways of treating individuals with gender dysphoria (again, caused by environmental conditions) may be more beneficial to them in the long term. And yeah, there is a reason the concept of "underage" exists.

...

That kid isn't surgically altered though.

No, but wouldn't you agree that raising you kid as a drag queen is just a different side for the same as raising him as a typical traditional male? It's like you want him to suffer from gender disphoria later.

Different side of the same coin*

I'm being on my phone

I actually hadn't thought of it that way. That applies to all of us eventually tbh, but with trans people the part that stands out is their form changes significantly.

You misunderstand human will, desire, freedom, with welfare. People will do things they want even if it hurts them.
Anyways, the suicide rates among all trans people are high, don't act like their experiences don't contribute to this hugely.
The thing is, trying to treat these people in ways other than allowing them to transition is not treating them so much as it is stripping them of all autonomy and forcing them to live a life you have decided. It's similar to gay conversion therapy and you know it.

You're right. It's much higher than the usual rate for a lot of reasons including insecurity and discrimination. But it's still lower than pre-op people with gender dysphoria. That's the point.

Transitioning has a positive impact on suicide rates. Sex reassignment surgery saves lives. That's an undebatable medical fact.

because they specifically request it you autistic tyrant.

i still regret not bugging my parents into getting me diagnosed with autism at like 14 when everyone expected it and it wasn't too late to actually do anything about it, let alone the idea of wanting to live as the opposite sex and being told "nah you're just going to have to waste your entire childhood :^🍀🍀🍀)"

knowing you pissed away your youngest years is not a good thing.

It's relatively higher than the general population. But comparing those two groups is like comparing cancer patients with healthy individuals and arriving at the conclusion that chemo-therapy doesn't work. That's not how control groups work.
In studies comparing treated transsexuals with untreated ones the suicide rate is lower amongst the treated group.
In the end transitioning is simply making the best out of a shitty situation with our current knowledge and technical means. Kinda like chemo-therapy in that regard.

I don't know enough about these parents' specific parenting style to comment on it. None of the people here shitposting on some imageboard do.

Do you want more Holla Forumsacks? Because this is how you get more Holla Forumsacks.

I never used the word "force". I believe stuff like gay conversion therapy should at least be offered for the ones who would like to engage in it. They shouldn't be discriminated. Homosexuality is also mostly environmental conditioning. Besides the vulgar notion of human desire is not inherently valuable for social cohesion.

I think at this point you should fuck off to reddit

I actually didn't know that. Do you have any sources for that?

I reject IdPol, both left and right

If you deny transition then that is forcing them not to transition, you don't have to use the word.
why? nature? morals? lel gross, little autistic tyrant.

...

You are pushing idpol right now.

Isn't the current argument that the word "gender" holds connotations that cannot be objectively proven and change based on societal and historic values? To use a basic example, you can't point to pink and objectively say if it's masculine or feminine because it's held both connotations despite remaining exactly the same.

And tumblrinas take away from this that "Well, ackshully gender is on a spectrum between masculine and feminine" which is where the 9 billion genders meme comes from when they should take away "Gender does not exist"

Also languages that specify things as being masculine or feminine would be an extreme version of this.

Or have I missed something?

They totally overdo it. Pink hair etc. It's like dressing up your kid as a high testo lumberjack

Not everything can be transcended if it's subjected to biological laws.

It exists because kids don't have a cohesive skill for long-term decision making. Fucking AnCaps man

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/

On the same website, you can also find the infamous "Swedish study" you probably already know of, which rightly says post-op trans people still have higher-than-usual suicide rates. However, it also states that this doesn't invalidate reassignment surgery and actually calls for better post-op care.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

wearing a dress is not a long term decision
growing your hair out is not a long term decision

both can be reversed near instantly.

Good thing we've got the tech to make trans people happen so it doesn't really fucking matter what biological laws you say it breaks.

turd positionist national syndicalist pls go back to Holla Forums

Not the same person but here are some sources for what that user said.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28366591

Tbfh I do find it a little tacky yes.

Putting a dick inside a little girls vagina is also not a long term decision and can be removed instantly. Don't act as if an infants psyche doesn't exist.

We are far from advanced enough to permeate or imitate every single aspect of biological life.

Sex with little kids is not a leftist stance. >>>/liberty/

We're plenty close enough where if you live in a major north american city you've seen plenty of trans people and not noticed, and could in many cases see them naked and not notice.
So there is no good reason to force these people to not transition.

Yes, absolutely. Yet there are certain behaviors which are determined by someone's sex. I don't necessarily see a problem with language describing things as male of female regardless of their basis in biological sex or gender role. It's just how people communicate, and everybody knows what is meant with it. I can call something "childish" which is an entirely cultural notion as well.

also
age old tactic of right wing subversion tbh, haven't updated your tactics since in the last decade at all?

Thank you

You were the one claiming that the concept of being underage is completely useless and resort to vulgar AnCap style voluntaryism.

Yeah wow you can make dicks disappear. That wasn't nearly close to what I said. But good job praising the commodification of sexuality under liberal capitalism.

Completely useless in the context of knowing they're transgender specifically, you're the one who then immediately jumps to the "they're rapin the chillins!" basic fear tactic when perpetuating right wing identity politics.

I'm an actual tranny and you aren't doing anyone any favors by sperging out against someone who disagrees with you on something.
The tankieposter has even stated he doesn't hate transpeople, get off your high horse already.

Making a decision about your sexuality before you even reached puberty, ergo lack the very understanding what sexuality is, is not completely useless, you fucking faggot. Secondly, you lack logical coercion. My "accusation" wasn't made out of thin air, if you do insist that pre-teens can make assumptions about their sexual self-determination there is literally no argument as to why we don't let them have consensual sex. Lose a few kilos and read something else than Stirner

Also, for a self-described "nihilist" you are getting extremely buttflustered about an issue which is solely medical/ethical in nature.

I'm doing myself a favour by providing some resistance to the fucking absurd amount of right wing propaganda being pushed on this board by unwitting newfags.
He doesn't need to hate them, you can totally love all homosexuals and think they will all get the necessary shock therapy they all desperately need as well.

Most Homos I know are chill but I know for sure you are getting the gulag 100%

stole my point

Tankies idiotic again

Did you read my answer to that?

It's not a sexuality. Anyways, these are things it's entirely possible to know at, at least around 8 from what I've seen to be possible.
People don't like that and I sure as hell am not going to be the person to pioneer that fight. I'm against it out of a sense of self preservation.

I'm personally invested.

I'm just using them as a consistent example.
By chill I'm sure you mean "anti"-idpol, or as anyone who reads more than lenin and Holla Forums would call it, right wing idpol.

Weak argument. 200 years ago you would have gotten the guillotine as well for merely implying that homosexuality should be allowed. Stop avoiding my point, this is a fucking imageboard, you either stand with your beliefs of fuck off

IdPol is the dominating issue in pretty much every other leftist space on the Internet. Why you are on Holla Forums which is decidedly anti-IdPol?

Stop trying to make a discussion about trans people a discussion about pedophilia. I'm saying this again it's the exact same tactic people used to use against gays. It's slippery slope bullshit.

Because Holla Forums gets anti-idpol and right-wing idpol confused. A lot. It's sad and pathetic.

The whole reason you can do that is because of the post modern understanding of gender. Even now most people would take 'that's very opposite gender of you' as an insult, let alone in the past.

I want bringing this up until you made a retarded statement about children being able to make a decision regarding their sexuality. I'm not allowed to use that argument because it just so happens to be used by right-wingers? You call me a newfag but you seem to alien to imageboard culture

It actually doesn't. It actually swings more towards left-wing IdPol.

The biological distinction between biological traits and socially constructed gender roles has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with post-modern gender theory. Engels already was aware of such distinction.

his brother killed himself too, they were both subject to horrendous child sex abuse, which is why they offed themselves.

A post-OP person doesn't have functioning female sexual organs, and you know it.

I think the biggest problem with gender theory is that it conflates

a) biological sex
b) sex-based social structures and
c) gender identity

I didn't quite fledge that out in my OP. But I think that's why it's completely unscientific and useless

There is nothing wrong about the normalization of mental illness, it yet another point in favour for anti-humanism

There is a medical definition of mental illness which doesn't have inherent value about it being good or bad.

Then there is an ethical level (yeah I know spooks and such) of questioning which mental illnesses are harmful for social cohesion. And no, I don't include gender dysphoria in that.

It's not a sexuality, but they can also make decisions about that. Just because underage people can know if they're gay or trans does not mean I'm saying everyone has free reign to fuck them. It's slippery slope bullshit and you know it's bullshit.
You're using that argument because you're a very recently converted right winger.

Holla Forums quite often allows right wing idpol under the false excuse of free speech while consistently demonizes left idpol, the reason for this is obvious, an unconscious/conscious right wing bias. We're on Holla Forums, we're the only non-nazi board on Holla Forums. It's not such a crazy claim.

Close enough that you really might not be able to tell the difference, so again, why deny these people their freedoms?

I think the biggest problem with your nature worship is it goes ahead and demands we bow down to biological sex even when we clearly and demonstrably don't need to.

...

Why do trannies need to take HRT of rthe rest of their lives then?
Again, stop disconstructing science and medicine already. This isn't how it works.

Because dysmorphia, desire, will, they want to. The human form ain't sacred.

...

no-one is a transsexual because they want to you dolt.

Harming social cohesion

You say it like that is a bad thing

They aren't trans because they want to but they go ahead and actually do something about it because they want to.

We do it because its what's been shown in a replicable systematic manner to be what best relieves symptoms of gender dysphoria with our current levels of knowledge and technical capacity.
No-one does it because they "want to" being transsexual isn't some cutesy identity you decide to adopt every other wednesday like, idk being a trot.
Now stop the idpol already, stick to the medicine and science of the thing.

I doubt it. When I was that age, I was grossed out when I saw adults kissing. I was unable to understand the concept of sex until I was 13 or so. Besides the fact that kids aren't very mature when it comes to long term decisions. There is a reason primates raise their offspring and don't just let it drop into the wild.

I've been a communist before Holla Forumseven existed.

I don't bow down to nature but it think nature does affect us on a social level as well. I'd never imagine myself agreeing with Bookchin but we was right about that.

Because butchering your organs and pretending that they are now something else because they have changed appearance while losing their original functionality and not gaining the desired ones is called a sham.

What makes SRS groups totally fishy to me is that they work very similarly to cliques around general plastic surgery. Everybody knows your face is full of botox and has lost the ability to express human emotions, your tits dangle in the weirdest angle possible, your fake muscles are like huge balls under your skin, but you have this little group that validates you so you can keep up the charade.

And this starts with the "doctors." They keep telling you you need one more little "adjustment," that how pretty you became with every new operation, while profiting off of your naivete and fantasies.

Most people who take meds already put on the glasses. They stared into the abyss and the abyss stared back into them.

...

We do it because its what's been shown in a replicable systematic manner to be what best relieves symptoms of gender dysphoria with our current levels of knowledge and technical capacity.
That's a really long way of saying "you're entirely right, it's because I want to".
Oh so someone is forcing you to transition? You don't want to transition then. The idea that you have any desire to is a complete myth. Got it.
My god you nature cocksuckers. Get over nature. It means nothing. The human form means nothing. If people wish to transition into a fucking dolphin then go and let them it is meaningless it is not sacred it is just flesh. It is identity politics to be so disgustingly defensive of the human identity.

I knew, I know people who knew, it's possible, it doesn't have to be super common but it's possible.
Then for what fucking purpose is biology relevant when we have the means to ignore it?

Again, pathetic appeals to authority at best.

I never denied gender roles being spooks. I'm just saying if you can't tell the difference.

The true tragedy is the amount of focus thos shit gets. Trans people are such a small minortity of the population, it is not an issue worth splitting over.

That's a really long way of saying "you're entirely right, it's because I want to".

Fixed that first bit to be read easier.

Is it splitting to allow them their freedom, or is it splitting to deny them their freedom?

This isn't how it works you doofus.
You do it because it's the most effective treatment, and you would want a treatment for a fucking health condition you dolt.
You aren't doing any actual trannies any favors you know.

So yeah, I don't think that "gender identity disorder" is a real thing. It's an ideological construct to justify more consumer choices, commodifying your own body in times of personal crises obfuscating your real problems.

The whole DSM is basically a consumer guide, designed by shareholders of big pharma. They create new "conditions" and "disorders" every 4 year to fit their new "medicine." That's right. They have the drugs first, and they find the conditions to fit it second.

it's splitting as moralism and virtue signalling
no one's capable of denying anyone anything

Splitting the worker movement over opinions of what would happen to them is undesirable.

And I'm not even talking about menstruation or the ability to make babbies. More down-to-Earth problems like the one with the supposed vagingo getting naturally wet and so on. If you ever licked pussy you know your gf material from their natural taste. Having a "gf" who has to use artificial lubes in her re-purposed privates isn't doing it for me.

It being the most effective treatment is a thing called a reason. A reason you want to do it.
Yeah, thank you, again you just said I'm fucking right trying to say I'm wrong.
Oh yeah, you get to decide who is and isn't actually trans now because faggots with faggot philosophies are the only ones that can.

To workers you mean? I'm sure the workers are interested in what happens to themselves.

Apparently some of the newer methods allow the post-op vaginas to self lube. As technology advances this well be even less of a concern.
Still not sure why it not being good enough for you should matter?

You don't do a treatment because you want to do it. You do it because it's the best option.
jfc how are you this fucking dense?

...

You want to because it's the best option.
It being the best option means you want to do it.
You already fucking said this yourself.

No sorry.
It being the best option makes you want to do it.

This isn't how healthcare works.

It's how wanting things works.

...

...

I wish n1x had followed his words and killed xyrself 2 years ago.

fucking hell.

people really need to get better at just ignoring shit discussions that will go nowhere and convince nobody of anything

Would you agree that facts hold authority over non-facts?

wew, so now authority is fact, swell.
God's will too right? Nature is meaningless, stop holding it as sacred just because it exists. I exist too, I ain't sacred.

...

Nature is one way. That is a fact.
We can change it. That is a fact.
Why does it trigger you so much that it gets changed? Grow up.

...

...

That's literally false. It's género in Spanish, genre in French, genere in Italian, etc. The Germans and Dutch use "gender" like the Anglos.
I should have stopped reading there.

The social roles and expectations stemming from your biological sex are not static things though. They have always varied within different cultures and eras.

I dislike liberal idpol as much as the average user here, but from my experience, Frantz Fanon wrote valuable stuff about this in Black Skin, White Masks. Idpol isn't inherently worthless.

I can understand your opinion, but I think it's a waste of time to give a fuck about this.
Some of my mom's friends when I grew up were gay, and they would often use female pronouns to refer to themselves, for fun, and I see nothing wrong with that.
As long as you don't become hysterical if I forget to use your desired pronoun, I don't care.

You should travel to Thailand one of these days.
I agree that people shouldn't undergo sex reassignment surgery until they are adults though. It's easy to make an irreversible decision you can regret all your life because of a fad .

The worse thing they exported in the recent years is this trend of being offended by everything, and I fucking hate it.
Even my liberal ex-gf told me yesterday she was tired of the "SJWs" even though she almost never spend time on the Anglo internet and lives in a small village.
At least, this trend is slowly dying since Hilary lost the election.

Also this.

No shit, the word gender stems from the Latin word genus which found its way into the English language via the Norman invasion 1066. The difference is that gender in all romanic languages means grammatical gender. Gender as a term for socially attributed gender roles was exported from the Anglosphere into said countries, and wasn't even a thing in English until very recently, as I proved with a source a few posts below. If you don't believe this go to the Wikipedia page of gender and see how all the pages for gender in French, Spanish and Italian are making a specification in brackets for it, English is the only language where gender redirects you directly to socially attributed gender roles. And the fact that gender is a loanword in Germanic languages confirms my statement actually.

Get off your high horse, you're uninformed.

Is that how French, Italians, Spanish, etc all have masculine and feminine and we don't? What are you talking about.

You are right, but there is a difference between saying "Only English has a concept of "gender"" and "The contemporary conception of gender has been invented by the Anglosphere" though.
The first statement is false while the second one is true, and to prove your point even further, I just noticed Judith Butler's works has been translated into my native language only during the early 2000s, because nobody gave a shit about gender where I live in the past.
However, it's not because a concept has been conceived only recently and come from a specific country that it is worthless at its core. Hegel and Marx theories were young and only available in German at some point in time for example, and translators had to come up with new terms to convey the meaning of Tauschwert or Zusammensetzung des Kapitals in different languages.
In other words, this is not an argument. What matters most are the shortcomings of gender theory in itself.

No offense, but if you are OP, you should try to express yourself more clearly.

dont you have something better to do like masturbate?