Labor Party Manifesto leaked

Federalism is a non-starter. Makes me groan to hear it mentioned.

porky logic

I mean, they're not really journalists.

I know it's a nonstarter. But it's what Scottish Labour keep bleating on about all the time, hoping that if they somehow push a "third way" solution that makes the constitutional question (nationalism vs unionism) go away, then Scotland can return to its status as Labour's god-given personal fiefdom, happily ever after. They're so lost, so out of touch, it hurts. They haven't yet gotten over the fact that Scotland isn't theirs anymore. They're so blinded by their tribal hatred for the SNP that they're willing to prop up the Scottish Tories against them, even though that exact strategy is what's carrying them to electoral oblivion.

as a leftwing scot I could rant against SLab all fucking day, that's how much I despise them.

Uneducated burger here.

Does the SNP exist more or less entirely because the Scottish Labour party doesn't support independence?

Yes, they have occupied the place of the left in Scotland because Labour became the establishment.

[congrats on being perhaps the first yank to accurately say something about british politics]

Scottish nationalists are the worst.

not helping the stereotype of nationalists being spooked as fuck

The SNP started as a bourgeois nationalist party almost a century ago, They were basically of meme-tier irrelevance unti oil was discovered off Scotland's coast. They began to weasel themselves into the national conversation in the 70s, but were not really left or right, just nationalist.

Then in the 80s, Thatcher's revolution turned all of England blue, but Scotland held fast and kept voting for Labour, even as the rest of the country abandoned them. Thatcher was highly unpopular in Scotland and imposed policies on it like the Poll Tax, despite Scots rejecting her at the polls constantly. This,combined with Thatcher's all out assault on the central belt's old industrial heartlands, led to a lot of resentment which Labour cynically exploited in order to entrench themselves as "Scotland's protectors".

Then once Blair swept New Labour to victory, he rewarded Scotland with its own parliament, hoping that it would permanently satisfy them and make nationalism wither away - also designing the voting system in a way which would permanently lock the SNP out of power. However, as blairism took its toll on the country, the SNP successfully positioned themselves to the left of New Labour especially re: Iraq, tuition fees, the NHS etc.

The final nail in the coffin was when Scottish Labour chose to campaign for a "No" vote alongside the Scottish Tories, once the SNP had brought about their referendum.

I'm an entryist. I'm not even ethnically scottish, I just think independence is the only way of bringing about progressive change here - most of the scottish "left independence" groups like the SSP or RISE are either tiny or crypto-liberal

The thing that annoys me most about Scottish Labour is the incompetence.
For example they promise that if they win this election they'll reverse "Tory and SNP cuts"

But even if we assume the SNP were cutting budgets because they wanted to, instead of because they're having their budget cut centrally, this election wouldn't give them the mandate to do so - that would be a devolved matter for Holyrood. Scottish Labour could send Holyrood more money, but there'd be a hell of a row if they tried to impose spending plans from above on devolved matters. Any spending increase (as a result of increased funding as a result of Barnet consequentials from the increased spending of a Westminster Labour government on Health, Education, etc.) would be the SNP's to decide what to do with.

Eh, it's nice to have some basic pandering that confirms the issue is still on the agenda somewhere.

Agreed.
It's just not fair.

I think the most telling thing is that Scottish Labour's main backgrounds, etc, read Stronger Together not For the Many, not the Few

It's a nuanced historical situation.
Their sole purpose for existing is to advocate for Scottish Independence and has been since the party was founded (I want to say in the 1930s?), so they're a pretty broad church, but they're great at presenting a united front and since the 1990s that united front has been more or less European Social Democracy. (Before then they were a bit more ragtag, generally they've always had a strong band of left-wing [well, socdem] thought, but the "Tartan Tories" attack line came from one school of thought in the 1970s that would have prioritised holding onto the seats they got in 1974's elections - which mostly came from Tory-leaning areas. - another school of thought saying they should displace Scottish Labour as Scotland's biggest party, which eventually prevailed.)

Generally speaking from 1987 to 2015, the SNP have been to the left of Scottish Labour, albeit lukewarm social democrats. (Scottish Labour in power in Scotland from 1999-2007, imposed stealth tuition fees and prescription charges in Scotland, for example, despite being in a strong financial situation. In their early years they were sending money back to Westminster instead of using it on schools, hospitals, etc.), after 2015 the situation became more ambiguous - with Scottish Labour generally leading calls for tax rises (which would only apply to Scotland), but this is more political positioning on their part ("If you're so left wing jump out of this helicopter!") than a genuine revival of socialist thought.

That said, the Scottish Public aren't unrepentant socialists and devolution doesn't allow much policy power by design (about the limits of it were to restore free tuition, end prescription charges, etc. Probably sounds huge in US terms, but funding wise things are much more restrictive - they have some power to toy with income tax, but "the rich will move away" is a genuine threat inside a united kingdom, not to mention the rich can just play with their finances since tax powers don't extend far enough to closing loopholes - and a few other minor powers, but basically revenue streams are restricted.) since a socialist Scottish Parliament would've embarrassed UK Labour's attempts to appeal to middle-England, had anyone in Scottish Labour actually desired it. So the SNP's position really is centre-left.

I'm really rambling now so I'll stop infodumping.

They're the most left-wing governing party Scotland has had in any form since the 1970s.
Which isn't saying much, but hey.

Also while Kinnock was cucking loudly "Lawmakers must not be lawbreakers!" the SNP advocated non-payment of the poll tax :^) for which they have been accused of bandwagon jumping by some on the radical left, but whatever, that's pretty cool of them. I think Plaid did the same.

I mean, part of the SNP's big deal is that it's about living in Scotland rather than being born here that counts. (This has been relatively consistent too, even in the 1990s they were signing the praises of "New Scots")

Which is a weird thing about Scottish nationalism. It's like Scotland seems to be an anthropomorphic entity of it's own, instead of it just being the collective of the Scottish "nation" in the traditional sense. I don't know if it's about the land, or the history, or what, but it's an interesting quirk that goes beyond regular brand civic nationalism.

The time for that flexibility was 10 years ago. Today, they're haemorrhaging voters to SCon for not being firm enough on unionism.

Yeah. SLab never quite got over Brownism, their contempt for Corbyn and his values are transparent. Until last week, I always assumed that the voters fleeing SLab to SCon are JK Rowling-esque middle class unionists, but the Tories winning in some of Glasgow's most deprived areas shows that they've now become complete DUP-tier loyalists, going after "muh rangers/queen/fleg" working class votes.

Yeah. I was watching a Plaid Cymru PBB the other day, and their constant referencing of "our nation" and "our people" and even "our identity" made me uncomfortable (like something depressing Holla Forums would make about anuddah shoah) even though they're harmless socdems like the SNP. It dawned upon me that the SNP never actually talk about Scotland as a nation, they almost talk about it like a civic polity defined by the way it votes and nothing else.

bring back clause 4

I miss the old Labour, straight from the 'Go Labour
Chop up the soul Labour, set on its goals Labour
I hate the new Labour, the bad mood Labour
The always rude Labour, straight in the news Labour

TBH it was a lot better than I expected. I am hovering now between not voting and voting Corbyn just to stick fingers up at the media

The media will go mad when all their fear mongering didnt work. Go and vote just to sow a bit of fear in the porky media.

thing is if he loses then you just crowned Theresa all the more

Any form of nationalism is a cancer.

...

Scotland's population would be plummeting if it weren't for immigration so the SNP must stay pro-migration.
It also doesn't hurt that the only real icon of Scottish nationalism - Burns - was espousing semi-socialist thought in poems like "Is There for Honest Poverty"

Scotland's indigenous capitalist class has been extinct for the better part of a century.

Scottish nationalism, much like the Irish, is emancipatory and not reactionary.

Scotland best anti imperialists. Romans could not get us we wuz picts and shit

Uphold Marxism-Calgacusism with Pictish characteristics

Join the National-Anarcho- Bouddician militia

You know what 'end driver-only operation of trains' is all about? In the old days trains had a conductor who'd signal to the driver when the last passenger was on board - and that was an important safety feature because the driver couldn't see everything with a simple mirror. However, now the driver can view his train through camera, from multiple angles, thereby making the conductor redundant. Except that removing conductors would mean fewer jobs for the members of the unions that support Corbyn. So never mind advances in technology, the unions and Corbyn's Labour party are fighting hard to stop driver-only trains. If Corbyn ever got into government (he won't) he would once again let the unions take over British industry and pad the books with expensive sinecures for their members. People always bitch and moan about Margaret Thatcher, and how terrible the 80s were with all the greed and crassness. What everyone conveniently forgets to include is how things were before Thatcher got into power. Britain spent the 1970s being referred to as 'The sick man of Europe' (a term first coined to refer to the decaying Ottoman Empire). Do I agree with everything Thatcher did? No. But her solutions were a damn sight better than leaving things to continue as they were - rubbish piling up in the streets, electricity being turned off three days a week, corpses going unburied, constant shortages of everything. Don't let the rose-tinted spectacles of the left fool you - when they talk about how everything was much 'nicer' and 'community-oriented' before Thatcher, what they mean is that everyone was poor as dirt.

Voting age to 16?

Say goodbye to post-scarcity anarchism.

When revolution comes I'm going to shoot you first you received wisdom spouting motherfucker.
The people of Britain ended the 1970s with higher living standards than they went into them. The same will not be true of the 2010s. That's Thatcher's legacy.

Strikes were a side effect of high inflation caused by a global oil crisis aligning with a cyclical crisis of capitalism. "Corpses went unburied" in one area, and were kept refrigerated.

Furthermore, we at least had the dignity to realize 1 million unemployed was abnormally high. (It's now 1.5 million, and celebrated as the lowest in years.)