You're lucky you get any sort of argument, however incompetent it is. I speak sense to righties and all I get is ad-homs ;^(
Because they are all about feels>reals.
Soviet patriot is not equal to communist. Sovied patriots can be spooked as fuck by religion, imperialism, tsarism etc.
Every time I see someone talk about having actually lived in a true socialist country, they also express that they never want to live in socialism ever again.
Define 'true socialist'. In fact, just name the countries that were 'true socialist'.
Facts say diffrent.
this tbh the SU wasn't even socialist
Every time you see someone talk about having lived in a "true" socialist country, it is someone who fled from it. You don't speak to the millions of people who still live in those countries and long back to it because it was better than what they have now. Its a heavy selection bias and you should realise that.
Gusano genocide now
Every time I see someone talk about having actually lived in a true capitalist country, they also express that they never want to live in capitalist ever again.
It was socialist. But everyone don't have to be communist to live in socialist country and to like it
Lets not turn this into a discussion of semantics of what is and isnt socialism. The USSR was better for most people than the shit they have now and better than what most of the world has, even if some horrible shit happened there.
Is that the internationale in the beginning?
I guess I'm not that good at recognizing songs from that era
Song is still based af.
If you can point out when the Soviet Union abolished wage labour that'd be nice. I'll wait.
funny, I'd say the exact same thing about the left.
Well I was about to reee the fuck out if they were playing the Internationale for that fuck Putin.
Of course you would
Leftists in Russia never seem to even play the Internationale, even the Anti-Putinists.
Abolishing wage labour is about communism. Socialism just has to abolish private property
The USSR did have private property thanks to this man.
If you could point out when Marx said this that'd be nice. Or just admit that 'marxism-leninism' is non-marxist socialism.
Jesus fuck they say the exact same thing of you.
Do neither of these shitty boards have any self-awareness whatsoever?
On both boards.
Shut the fuck up.
Oh look a centrist
Note how the centrists puts liberals with leftists
Marx have never said about socialism, just about proletarian dictatorship
What did he mean by this?
We aren't liberals, retard. Lurk for more than 2 seconds, newfag. And nice reddit spacing.
I didn't flee. Fucking nobody wants it back.
Funny how they do that, huh…
Capitalist regimes have killed more than any other system. Just a fact.
muh dumb niggers like pottery
My sides Where did it say this?
this is probably one of the best ben garrison edits
Hey. Remember that time the proletariat finally rose up and overthrew Marxist-/Leninism?
Oh look a retard*
Not need. Centrist and retard are interchangeable.
So thats why they want it back?
Facts hurt the little rightists!
Proles nationalize means of production, destroy class society so the state starts to fade away. And it would be true if only the revolution occured all over the world. In other way, proletarians use their state as a tool of class struggle until the last capitalist state is fallen.
Let's be honest here, 20th century socialism was a mistake.
That is DOTP, not socialism.
Bunch of backwards Russian Imperialists don't represent the proletariat.
If you think about it, being a communist in Russia makes you a conservative.
Socialism has many definitions. Socialism as a stage before communism was described by Lenin. Marx only talked about proletarian dictatorhip but you can't establish proletarian dictatorship which abolishes the state until capitalist states still exist so you need socialism
There's still a large communist party in Russia and Die Linke in Germany. So they can vote their preference.
The CPRF are just controlled opposition and Putin shills. The Communists of Russia party are better imo. Die Linke have a strong presence in the former DDR but are mostly just socdems.
ive been spamming 4chan for a bit now, pajeets are ready to solve the captchas, posting works fine, but how do you deal with autistic janitors/mods hawking the board and just mass deleting the bot posts with near 95% accuracy?
Don't spam like an autistic fuck
fuck you Holla Forums
Lenin is wrong in that regard. Calling the DOTP (and whether it was a DOTP at all is debatable) socialism is dishonest. Socialism isn't the transition towards communism, it's the same. The transition is the DOTP.
Speaking from experience, they don't hate facts, but they do hate when you claim facts don't exist, shit the bed, and start blubbering about da capitalisms.
Communism is as equally responsible for these deaths because Communism didn't save those people either.
Strawman don't exist! Its a social construct! Its a spook! Its the Capitalists! Fuck you give me 20 dollars right now!
Trying to make a strawman army there?
They were under Capitalist rule not Communist.
Try again :)
No, Communism didn't save them. Therefore Communism was at fault.
Hitler initiated WWII and therefore killed about 60 million people
Don't look at me that's what the original image implied, I'm just replacing Capitalism with Communism to show you that its nonsensical unless you're an angsty teen. If you haven't posted that image to your facebook, make sure to do it soon, just so everyone knows you're different and smarter.
Oh, I get it.
And what's the source? A pro USSR i asume?
If you want anyone to buy sources like that you are going to take "capitalism is great" from the wallstreetjournal as proof
No, there are not 20 million annual deaths in the united states. Are you on something?
oh wait, aynclaps actually believe that
Who has ever said Capitalism hasn't been tried?
literally every austrian ever
Do you believe South America, Africa, and Asia are all capitalist? Because they make of the bulk of those statistics, and they most certainly are not Capitalist, except in the sense that their governments lack any control.
your candidate lost btw twice
Some ancaps. Cuz statists shit in their pants and prevent ultimate prosperity for everyone(tm) from happening
I don't understand, do you not like statists? How do you plan to create a communist system without a state? Please explain.
No, its not capitalism at all. You cannot have willing trade when someones holding a gun to your head.
capitalism without your imaginary "free market" is still capitalism
no one in the real world cares about austrian bullshit
it is capitalism
Capitalist/worker relations, wage labour, market exchange as a dominant system, sounds more like capitalism to me.
No, its not. You're totally mislead into believing what Capitalism is about, and what it seeks to accomplish. Capitalism is a means to allow those with ability to gain wealth from others. Its a circular system that rewards those who use money wisely, be that by giving it to others with ideas, or using money to create ideas. When money is forcibly stolen, it destroys Capitalism.
it is capitalism.
no one cares about your austrian autism.
it is capitalism.
You are factually wrong, and you are rejecting reality in order to suit your world view.
Definition of Capitalism: Everything Evil Definition of Communism: The best
We need a state while proletarian dictatorship will nationalize means of production and fight reactional regimes all over the world. After that a state won't be needed anymore. If you just abolish state it will return just because of class contradictions. And ancap is basically feodalism with modern technologies
capitalism is not evil, it is just a system, one that was considered progress hundreds of years ago
the ruling class is merely acting in self interest like us
the only evil is autismos that ideologically defend an outmoded, inefficient system because of their hedonistic fetish for the lifestyles of investment bankers
Are you sure you're not thinking of the term, "Dictatorship"? Because you might be confusing the two. From what you've written, it seems probable that is the case.
The average Autism Level of a Caucasian male is 105. The general populace, the overton window will always point to stupidity.
Also stop renaming communism
You leftists do some crazy mental gymnastics
wrong pic, trolly boy
the state is just an extension of the power of the ruling class
in tankie commie nations, the bureaucrats simply formed a new ruling class themselves while pretending to care about ideals
hahaha jesus christ
You aren't saving everyone being killed by Capital right now, so it's all your fault.
I guess all those 19th century economists were wrong, capitalism is about FREEDOM and EXCHANGE.
My experience is that when you calmly explain that socialism isn't a Jewish conspiracy/tried and failed/more welfare spending/the same as liberalism/etc etc etc - they claim that we are opposed to facts. There is no point arguing with these fucking dickheads, they make up their mind based on false info that feeds their narrative and are not interested in hearing anything different. At least we listen to what they are claiming before dismissing it. They outright tell us that we believe things that we don't. The mind boggles.
Holy shit what kind of special person do you have to be actually anthropomorphize the economic system
I mean, even my US History class when I was in high school acknowledged that the Russians actually did like living in the USSR.
If that can happen then anything can happen.
Makhno looks a lot like Ayn Rand
Yeah, not like we have too many people or anything, right?
Let em die. It's gotta happen sometime.
Of course you would say he would.
I bet she voted for Trump
I've encountered something like that a lot recently.
Basically our government wants to cut the housing benefits of the poor bcuz according to their logic, that will lower rents or at least stop their growth.
There's no statistical support for this: we've had periods when the housing benefits stayed the same yet the rents rose all the same. Our student housing benefits have stayed the same for a long time, yet the rents of students have grown just like all the other rents.
I point this out, the right-wingers just repeat market market market.
one doesn't even need to be a commie to know that this is bullshit
read Piketty or something, capitalism (without intervention at least) leads to huge concentration of wealth which ain't gonna reward the clever and hardworking people.
commies, as well: read Piketty even tho he isn't totally /ourguy/. his facts basically support our position if we rule social democracy/reformism out as politically impossible.
it is actually pretty common argument among people who consider themselves "classical liberals" or libertarians or whatever
not really in the "capitalism has not been tried!!" sense I suppose, but it is the same logic when they claim that capitalism doesn't actually exist anywhere lel the source of evil is big state lmao
Lack of resources caused by capitalism friendo.
How do you know all those filthy chinks and Slavs didn't die under communism just because they were too savage to into civilization?
Really makes you think
I have no idea why that included a picture of Mt. Rushmore.
What the middle pic means?
support for Die Linke(The Left), a Socialist party in Germany.
I assume those people are in Africa, so the system of government is most likely going to be dictatorship, or patronage-based tribal "democracy".
Blaming that on liberal free market democracy is a bit unfair, don't you think? Some of these African countries don't actually control the geographic areas delineated by the colonial boundaries on the map. Aside from failed states, many of them are controlled by de jure socialist parties and what not.
He's right and you don't have to be a centrist to realize it. The left/right dichotomy is fine for a quick and sloppy generalization of someone's views, but not anything more. Free yourselves from these fixed ideas of "left" and "right" so that we can discuss what really matters: policy.
That is the only right answer though
Where to cop that shirt?
They want the SU back for mainly nationalist reasons, mostly. They miss the power and influence and bossing eastern Europe and the Baltic states around. Most of them could give two shits about socialism. They'd take a new czar if it meant getting their old power back.
get the fuck out politically illiterate liberal not even fukuyama is a fukuyamaist anymore
radical centrist: Holla Forums: Holla Forums: great meeting guys we got some REAL GOOD POLICY WITH REAL FACTS NO IDEOLOGY done
you're not technically wrong I guess but I've never met an informed person making these "lmao left/right is outdated/doesn't tell shit" comments
it makes perfect sense that the lower classes would really want socialism back
you're eating too much from the trash can of ideology if you automatically assume that capitalism = better for the Russians
Same reason leftypol does I guess.. :/
Really makes you think :'^)
Notice how you were able to relate people's positions without "hurr durr left vs right". Do that more moving forward instead of getting pissy for no reason.
You seem to think the left/right disagreement is about what policies are the right ones to pursue our goal. This is obviously false, as the left and the right has completely opposite goals. The left (communists, socialists, anarchists) seeks to destroy the current (capitalist) order and replace it with something new (what this is varies between different leftist tendencies, but most of the time workers control is a keyword). The right (conservatives, liberals, fascists, socdems) on the other hand wants to preserve the current order. If think you are "beyond" this divide, discussing only specific policies, you are in reality most likely discussing different right-wing policies. You are either with the working class, or against it.
Are the means of production privately owned? Hint: in many of those countries, like china, the state acts like a private company
maybe we should look at the "capital" part of capitalism rather than wank over whether the owner is a shitty state or a group of private individuals
An incorrect assessment. I know that the left and the right differ on fundamental ideological levels, but it's better to discuss the differences between those ideologies rather than simplistically boiling it down to 'left vs right'. Politics are a spectrum, not a dichotomy, and unnecessary simplification only drives dialogue further into the shitter. Does that explain my post better?
From wikipedia, and it is also the most common definition. Definition != etymology
well, the chinese (etc) get half right you know
Because they've already dug themselves deep in a hole and would have egg on their face if they changed their opinion.
there's of course intentions to be considered, as well. soviet deaths (the largest amount) were justified by a need to modernise and so on. and the modernisation did happen
nazi germany, on the other hand, killed more senselessly: a lot of it really wasn't needed besides for ideological reasons
so the soviet deaths (again, most of them) were in a way the waste coming out of a factory, while in the nazi way, a lot of the deaths were the goal in itself
and then there's the war… I suppose the nazis are more responsible for it, but what about the deaths in the war caused by soviet policies (ie people on labor camps who died because the german invasion deprived them of food or the soviet soldier who died because they were told not to retreat)
What? The chineese got both private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.
isn't a pretty big part of their economy actually state-controlled or state-owned?
Silly fascist don't you know all communism that has existed was actually state capitalism. The real communists are always quickly pwned.