Juche doesn't work

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Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=9YHA5_RPzYM
youtube.com/watch?v=zmI2yDAyWYI
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songun
uriminzokkiri.com/index.php?ptype=great&subtype=rozak&no=5747
austria-dprk.at/
juchepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Juche_France
web.archive.org/web/20111230022007/http://juchefrance.org/
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm
telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/polish-firms-employing-north-korean-slave-labourers-benefit-from/

Glory be to the Kims!

read marx or just admit you're a utopian socialist

lol?

Kinda funny how the worst tanks will screech about rojava being an enthostate then go on to tongue bath north korea who's government has stated that the korean people is the superior race like they are larping imperial japan or something

They removed every mention of Marxism-Leninism from their constitution and openly admit they do not adhere to socialism anymore (implying they ever did).

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Most tankies don't think that Rojava is ethno-nationalist, that's just Phil Greaves.

We just thinking Rojava feels a bit off because of a) American support which could easily make them a pawn for imperialism and b) that communalism/Democratic Confederalism is seen as a cop-out from scientific/materialist Marxism and class struggle. When Rojava puts class struggle on their agenda and doesn't just say "you vote so it's socialism" I'm all on board.

The greatest

kys

The DPRK is socialist. You can't just cherrypick your favorite socialist experiment with a human face. This is why socialists are perceived as disingenuous, they resort to no true Scotsman. You'll always be in defense constantly, because everybody knows your arguments are shit, and you'll never get the chance to launch an attack yourself. The DPRK is socialist, period. Stop making us look retarded.


Pure idealism. It doesn't fucking matter if they are saying they are Marxist or not. Make a materialist argument about the relations of production or gtfo.

Fucking retarded. You sound like a "socialist" who got all his knowledge from Wikipedia.


See? I play the same fucking game you gigantic, humongous faggots

why?

DotP, no private property, no surplus extraction, planned economy

Except for all the private property, encouraging entrepreneurs, increasing market reforms, and the utter lack of worker control of pretty much everything.

isn't the country pretty much ruled by the kim dynasty? normal people have no power

see

shit

Market reforms only exist in a special trade zone with China they were forced to establish because they have been victims of economic terrorism conducted by imperialist powers like the USA you support.

Markets function in the DPRK as a feedback system for commodity allocation because they haven't had the funding for a proper Gosplan like the USSR but it's still planned in detail. Big difference to what you suggesting.

Entrepreneur in the West aren't just people who start businesses or have ideas . In Korea were you to start a business you can't employ wage laborers.

Worker control exists in North Korea, I know people who've been there and they said pretty much everything is a cooperative.


The DPRK is ruled by the people. Can't they groom their own leaders?


The state is the people. When everybody becomes a state bureaucrat and allocates commodities nobody is. Only in liberal states the dichotomy state - population works.

they convinced themselves Kim is the MOTHER of the State
and have eaten grass to survive

>>>Holla Forums

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You are retarded because you still can't break out of your liberal conditioning of muh individual vs state, dumb brainlet

You are literally not making an argument

This is why I am never going to be a tankie

You haven't made an argument I could respond to and are too dumb to think in anything else than liberal thinking patterns. The people don't influence the state with elections (bourgeois democracy), they are the state.

The state is made up of people, it isn't some automaton

Yeah, because socialism and class struggle is bad, right? Human nature.

wew, this sure shows that Holla Forums was right

It does, that's the problem.

Seriously, who are you and why are you spamming about NK?

This is your mind on liberalism

read a book

they're revisionists, however they have never "rejected" marx
the race ideology thing is an autistic meme by ultraleftist spergs like you

I don't get why people would want to support North Korea, seeing as we can plainly see what it is like.

There is a lot of legitimate criticism, but this is not it. While of course they COULD become pawns, any movement could. It is best then to try and stop pawning from happening at all, rather than to distance yourselves from any movement which might fall prey to it.
This is good insofar as it critiques Apoism directly, but bad insofar as it keeps trying to compare it to The Holy Word of Marx.

It's literally not socialist. There is not one socialist thing about it. It does not abolish private property, it does not have common ownership of the means of production, it is even propped up – and the pawn of – imperialistic powers, i.e. China.

This.

It's meant to keep the elites in power, and it does so.

t. kulak

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youtube.com/watch?v=9YHA5_RPzYM
youtube.com/watch?v=zmI2yDAyWYI
They make some really nice music

It's literally no win with Korea

Juche>Marxism-leninism

Wow OP, that's an incredibly succinct argument that North Korea isn't socialist. A good contribution to our board's discourse, if I do say so myself.

both regimes hold only because they are divided. unite Korea one way or another and quality of life improves on both sides

This is why people hate tankies

This is true. It's funny how many liberal humanists like to shit on NK. With that said, the reason Holla Forums is so successful is because they're willing to defend their ideals (i.e. they have no problem defending Hitler and the like). Whereas the left simply says "that wasn't real socialism" which just makes the left look foolish. I've won debates with Holla Forumsacks by defending Stalin and denying the holodomer because it usually throws them off because they're fully expecting the "it wasn't real socialism" meme.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

ok lol, i suppose the incans were the epitome of socialism despite being a theocratic caste system with extremely rigid classes, all because they (supposedly) occasionally utilized planning.

Just a dumbed down way of saying it's not Marxist-Leninism

This user: basically just answered your question.

Most people here are too autistic to understand that. They think they can win every debate after the third re-read of Bordiga and then they cry when people righteously point out you can't win a debate with constant no-true-scotsmen and just laugh at you.

gtfo and take your aesthetic movement with you

Sounds legit.

Also, it's not about debates on imageboards. Do you not realize that when you base your entire ideology of a priori statements (and Marx does a lot of those) you need to give people something juicy in the real world? If you argue vs a capitalist, you are on lost grounds with your line of reasoning since the entire world is capitalist but according to you every socialist state is capitalist too while you are actually an advocate of, I don't know, a theoretical building in the clouds?

You say A isn't B, but everytime A has been tried it turned into B. Good look convincing people A is still a glorious idea.

If you really want to make socialism a viable idea in the minds of people, don't roll up the field from the wrong direction by saying "no true socialism". Combat bourgeois propaganda and lies first. I won a debate in a uni group by relentlessly denying the Holodomor.

kek, leftcoms wrekt again

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The only way for that to possibly true is for the country effectively be stateless, ie no distinction between the people as a whole and the administrative and coercive apparatus of the state. This would basically have to look like some kind of direct democracy which North Korea definitely is not. As it exists currently the state is composed of a specific section of the population with little to no input from the general public. So that means it's not democratic, which means it's not socialist. Take your tankie retardation and Red Fascism elsewhere, or at least admit to being a Nazbol so we can all have a good laugh.

Also the "elections + representative democracy = bourgeois democracy" needs to die. When Marx was writing about "bourgeois democracy" he was writing at a time when most proles were literally barred from voting. Even with universal suffrage, a capitalist democracy can only really be called "bourgeois democracy" insofar as the influence of the capitalists on parliamentary politics is disproportionate to their numbers. A parliamentary system in a socialist context would not be bourgeois democracy simply because it has elections and representatives.

Read Cockshott, my man. Representative 'democracy' is dressed-up aristocracy.

Disingenuous. As if socialism was just a magical spell you can easily implement without any trouble.

How do you know this? When the state is all-encompassing, how do you even draw the line between the state and the "general population"? You realize hat when everything is nationalized, pretty much every job you do makes you a state agent? Do you think people don't organize their own workplaces?

Good job using liberal buzzwords to prove your illiteracy

This is not what socialism means. I prefer reciprocal participation with plebescitarian elements as a feedback system than just going to a voting booth and calling it a day. Lose some weight and actually get rid of liberal ideology

They got /theirguy/ elected.

By that logic every corporation is a democratic co-op since every employee is integrated into its organizational structure. There is no distinction between the corporation and the employee, but the employees have no agency. I'm talking about decision making power, which is concentrated in the hands of a small elite and not the general public.

Only in the minds of Holla Forumsacks. The vast majority of US citizens (and voters) have never heard about Holla Forums or seen a Holla Forums meme. Trump lost the popular vote by a couple million and got elected due to the way the electoral college functions.

Polite sage for offtopic.

We must defend the DPRK and Cuba against Western imperialism!

I'd have a Lenin hat, but I haven't read enough Lenin yet. MarkSoc only for immediate, local, pragmatic reasons.

What, like emancipation from the chains of capital?

Don't confuse me for a leftcom, my critique of SU is closer to the trots. This thread is however about NK, a pseudo-feudal ethno-nationalist militarist hereditary monarchy, which is so far from socialism as to make the whole connection laughable.

I'll call out liberal propaganda against the Soviet Union and even NK, but I won't support them uncritically just to score points for 'my team'.

Except you know very well that corporations compete in a market and try to produce value for the sake of producing value. When you produce a tractor in capitalism, your world ends once the tractor is shipped out. In Marxism-Leninism, everything is part of the same, big cooperative and involved in the allocation of commodities. Besides the fact that in capitalism your company is actually owned by someone who extorts value from it for his personal enrichment.

People have decision making power in their workplace. Government power in the constant state of siege in which NK is in will always centralized and rationalized amongst a small group. The only difference is that you want the small group to receive some formal legitimation by people throwing ballots in a container with some names on it.

What about state run monopolies and cartels? What about corporatism? Both of these things are technically free from market competition and private ownership (if you do not count the state as private), but still capitalism.

Rather the practical application of it. Paris Commune and Revolutionany Katalonia is not enough.

That's even worse man

Wew lad. Do you expect me to refute any of these buzzwords one by one? No, fuck you. You are a demagogue and not better than CNN. Make a proper argument.

But that's how the world works. But this also gets more into anti-imperialist theory. When capitalism becomes the dominating worldwide ideology, you have to strategically defend those who are resisting it. You can't subvert it from within. Do you think the USA will ever allow Rojava to become a huge socialist state tolerated by both Russia and the USA? That's only possible in the mind of a hippie.

The are free from market competition but they are still subjected to capitalist market forces (GDP per capita, supply of tools, raw materials, etc.). Let's say the government owns all the railways but you have private train companies using them. The relations to the entirety of the means of production doesn't change.

Plus you aren't describing what's happening in the West with state run cartels. They are currently all being transformed into a private legal form with the state holding 95% of shares so they can pay off managers and CEOs with massive golden parachutes. This is indirect surplus extraction.

Problem is, the ML states that did exist weren't good enough. Not as bad as the propaganda would have it but still not good enough.

Tanks

Ok, let's go through them one by one then.
pseudo-feudal: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun (I skimmed through the major source and it seemed propagandist, but the very existence of such a system is argument enough)
ethno-nationalist: non-koreans and mixed race residents are discriminated against, best direct source I found was a UNHRC report, again not exactly impartial, but in accordance with Korean nationalism as outlined in Juche
militarist: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songun
hereditary monarchy: this one you can work out by yourself

I do agree on a level though, I used to support Russian operations when the neoliberal consensus was stronger and when western critique of Russian military action provided a nice mirror of hypocrisy.

I am not an inflexible idiot stuck on "muh anti-imperialism"

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Do the workers have control over the means of production?
If yes:
If no:

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Why I don't see Cuba being criticised for being hereditary rule too?

Fidel gave power to his brother Raul

Raúl is one of the OGs and has been at the top of state power for a long time already, and the cult of personality around the Castros is far weaker. In NK the question of leadership was always confined to "which of Kim-Jong's sons will be the new leader".

It's hard to call DPRK socialist or progressive from even a Marxist-Leninist perspective (which i don't represent but know quite a bit about). The economy is pretty similar to Marxist-Leninist states though.

The Songun policy is outright anti-socialist and anti-worker IMO and so is the paternalistic cult of personality. I understand how their material conditions, cultural traditions and outside pressures contributed to these phenomena but it doesn't mean i have to like them. I don't "support" the DPRK (as far it is even possible by an individual person) but on the other hand i'm strongly against military or embargo action directed at them by imperialist powers.

:^)

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By definition, those states were not 'social experiment' or 'model' of specific socialism theory. No need for the unrelated party to feel obliged to 'defend' them or call them 'socialism'.

I'll just go full turbo autist mode and laugh at 'former glorious 60s DPRK' as filthy opportunist who betrayed the comrades (both physically and ideologically by purging Marx-Leninsts) and shit on current DPRK as 'socialist' China's 'socialist' puppet state.

I disagree. You can be arsed to explain in a debate the fact that all communist revolutions succeeded in the periphery so were required to go through a phase of socialist construction, which is different from what Marx expected. The achievments of Cuba not good enough? Well have a look at fucking Haiti.

Your main source is from a fucking CIA analyst and plain propaganda/lies. The Wikipedia article along looks like a fucking transatlantic infosheet. Songbun was one of Kim Ill Sung evolved ideas of class warfare against bourgeois elements by not granting political power to landlords, foreign imperialists, etc.

Show me the law that manifests a caste system in North Korea. Even every western source admits that this isn't an official policy and they base it off some secondary witness reports about how someone was looked down upon because his father collaborated with the South in the Korean War. Boo-hoo. Ridicolous to take a writing about revolutionary praxis from Kim Ill Sung and make it up to be some alleged discriminatory system.

WRONG. As long as you are a some sort of leftist you are fine. It's just Soros and his buddies crying that they can't fund an NGO there. At festivities, you will see plenty of black people for example dressed in traditional African outfits. Doesn't the racism accusation smell like CIA to you?

Literally conducted out of necessity because they are technically still at war and border a US puppet state which is propped out with modern military technology. Songun literally just means "military first" which isn't because they are war mongering but born out of necessity. And here they are still existing.

Very intellectually honest of you. Yes, you need to substantiate your ridicolous claims. Kim Yong Un ISN'T the head of state NOR the head of the executive government. The cabinent of ministers, which is the highest government body, is DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED by a DEMOCRATICALLY elected parliament hosting three parties. The cabinent is responsible for economic planning and every other branch of the government. The people are IN CONTROL of the means of production and the economy, unlike in a liberal democracy. Kim Yong Un is head of the National Security Council, he is also elected, and merely has the muh privilege to put "military first", as descibed in Songun, which is pragmatic given the geopolitical situation North Korea finds itself in. North Korea is a democratic country, and I've met Marxist-Leninists who went there and told me that it is entirely democratic. They weren't just tourists, they interacted with the party, with cooperatives, etc.

Do you have some books that tells the story of north korea and its actual politcal-economical situation?

Juche works fine
The DPRK is literally fine, stop listening to bourgeois and imperialist propaganda

they never had marxism in their constitution ever
They removed communism as an end goal, not socialism

AFAIK not in English, only in Chinese. It's one of the most isolated countries in the world. In the West the most read books about North Korean economy are published the the German Asia-Pacific Business Association (Abt) and from the London International Institute for Strategic Studies (Reese) and the Council on Foreign Relations (Snyder). I'm not even joking. I first swallowed the North Korea pill when I realized every literature about it is literal CIA.

My knowledge derives mostly from personal interactions with people who went to North Korea (politically), from what I've heard in lectures. The problem is for a proper political-economic analysis you need data, and it's not available. But from everything I hear and seen which isn't filtered through the mainstream discourse they genuinely seem to be the most anti-revisionist country out there, which also - sadly - means they face the same problem with Albania under Hoxha.

The DPRK is literally a CIA puppet state crafted as a purposeful propaganda against socialism.

They get fed everyday, they are far more happy there than most nations, they aren't invading anybody and actively are not practicing imperialism, it fits the definition of a socialist state, they are moving away from the Songon policy too which is good. American people in the 50's defected there and still live there, they explain how great it is, none of the so called concentration camps have fences around them, they have access to the internet, and not a heavily censored internet, people who live there actively post videos of their daily lives there in the DPRK and everything is literally fine, they have elections every five years and aren't forced to praise the leader, they genuinly like the leader, they have a right to have their own political ideology and a right to self determination, the economy there is growing slowly but the reason it's so slow is because of the US sanctions and natural disasters that occur there, for most of the nation's history it has been economically superior to the South, they have been to space before the South went to space, they were economically kicking ass til the CCCP collapsed and even then of economic turmoil they still stand to be a nation of keeping socialism well and alive there, the DPRK is a wonderful nation and I can't wait to visit there. I would die fighting for the DPRK to keep it alive and well, their cities are breathtaking. Capitalists and imperialists will still attack it hardcore because of the isolationism (they can only get away with it with isolationism like they did with East Germany) because it is one of the last socialist states in existance to this very day. Hell when the berlin wall collapsed the East Germans had been shocked at all the propaganda against them protraying them essentially living in fucking huts when they were doing just fine and living far more humanitarian lives than the West, and I'm not even a Jucheist, I'm an Anarchist.

our heuristics show those logic is recipe for destruction but fair enough.


Purges Marx-Lenists in 1956 and formalize caste system in 1957. Like a poetry ye?

Also tell me why Kim Jong Un shilled so hard to hide heredity of his mother. So much for the pure bloodline?


by people not party you CIA nigger. There's only one candidate. Votes are not anonymous. People of DPRK either approves Kim or (theoretically) choose to decline single candidate (and get purged). You can check out the voter turnouts yourself in some chink sources. They support kim 100%. Official poster even shills "Let's all vote Aye".


source : my rectum


Well share us some Chink sources. I speak Chinese and bit of Korean.

you have believed in the CIA propaganda then, Back in the Korean War times the majority of the Koreans wanted Juche as their political ideology, it wasn't til the US installed puppets in the South and essentially practiced imperialism through the illegal occupation of the South that there is a divide between the two states, the South is a neoliberal CIA controlled hell whereas the North is literally fighting all of that, the most independent nation on the planet, don't believe in CIA propaganda or bourgeois lies about the glorious DPRK

Interesting how there are threads on Holla Forums & Holla Forums about how North Korea is supior to the south, despite the amount of cognitive dissonance it would take to draw that conclusion.

BUT THATS OK BECAUSE ITS NOT LIKE HORSESHOE THEORY IS CORRECT OR ANYTHING XD XD XD XD

Never forget le line, user. It is where commies and fashies do a cool Dragon Ball Z fusion dance.

are you actually a nazi or just shitpost flag?

That is for mods to decide. I do not consider myself as oldfag but I do think Holla Forums has turned into /nu-leftypol/. Best thing to do is keep shitposting in Nazi flag while actually reading books (hopefully not something written in English).

I can explain it all day, and I do, I defend the successes and explain the deficencies. Ultimately all of them have turned completely or towards capitalism. Even NK has capitalist experiments.

Admittedly NK is not my expertise, but I'll keep arguing for arguments' sake.
Ye it did seem fishy, and I can't really find anything better than that, at least with a quick check. What's your take on the 'Pyongyang elite'?

This doesn't really say anything about the subject at hand.
Something being CIA doesn't make it false, it just means there is an agenda.

Yes, but starving your population to invest massively in the military just for the sake of existence is pointless. A socialist state does not exist for self-perpetuation, but for the welfare of the worker nationally and globally. Are the famines western propaganda/imperialist attempts to destroy the state? If it is the first case why does NK need food aid and if it is the second, why do the imperialists give it?

So what is his position as a party leader then, and why is that position hereditary?
Which type of democracy is this? Liberal representative democracy? Centralised democracy?

doubt.jpg


In other words an alienated ruling class that is not accountable to the people. Sure sounds like socialism to me!

Even low rank government officials depend on 'illegal' free market just to survive.

has been the case till Kim Il sung. After Kim Jung Un, it's not uncommon to find people from 'Ham Kyung do' among high ranking officials(partly because Kim Il Sung knows he is in insecure position due to his 'not so loyal' bloodline). Kim's waifu Lee Sul Ju is also from Ham Kyung do. Although she spent majority of her time in Pyong Yang.


Indeed my friend. DPRK protects China from SK and USA. Do you really think China is feeding DPRK for the sake of humanity? Kim Il Sung voluntarily killed his own people When flood happened by opening DPRK's side of the dam. Chinks were generous enough to thank them with rice ration.

You do know Augustus declined to call himself King (or any other monarchial titles) right?

Look at the third pic of my shitpost

He's the leader of party, militia and cabinet. Who the fuck do you think he is? First citizen of DPRK?

hmmm, proofs faggot?

It was envisioned by Kim Jong Il in 1986. Cannot find the original manuscript so have this DPRK's very own propaganda link instead. uriminzokkiri.com/index.php?ptype=great&subtype=rozak&no=5747

If you don't speak gook, all you have to know is that DPRK consider themselves superior not because of biological or eugenic properties but because of their culture and glory history.

Ever read The Cleanest Race?

I'm still pissed they didn't provide me with Kyokujitsu-ki shitposting flag.

I would be very happy if anyone could explain what Juche actually is about. I tried to understand it, but everything I got from texts online is that it heavily empathizes self-determination, both political and military. Also, humans can only fullfil their role as those who create and shape the world if they act as a collective. (This sounds like nationalist Maoism to me?)
I think Juche also considers the military to be the most revolutionary class in society, which is another thing I don't understand. (Why is the military a distinct class? Aren't normal soldiers part of the proletariat as they don't own any means of production? I suppose someone in the military can be either proletarian or bourgeois depending on their relation to the means of production, but I don't know for sure.)

Also, is Juche even applicable to countries other than Korea? How far is it influenced by Korean culture?

I was referring more to the percieved status of the 'Pyongyang elite' as a priviledged class within the DPRK society than the actual location.

What incident was this? Source?

I know, I'm asking the tankie to explain how Kim's position fits their conception of DPRK.


This book appears to support my claim of NK ethno-nationalism. I suppose it is just pure CIA propaganda too?

Yes there were Juche Parties worldwide

I can't find their sites anymore but I remember there being German and Spanish one

I am not aware of any Juche-inspired party existing here in Germany. There are "friendsip associations" with North Korea in both Germany and Austria however, maybe you are refering to those?
I can only find the Website of the Austrian one (Verein Österreich-DVRK): austria-dprk.at/

By quick search I could only find one of France

juchepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Juche_France
web.archive.org/web/20111230022007/http://juchefrance.org/

I am pretty certain there was one in Germany because I found out about them on Krautchan /int/

North Korea isn't socialist. The workers don't own the means of prodution. It totalitarian and oppresive.

Sorry I thought you were asking about geopolitical tensions inside DPRK's party and cabinet. If you are asking about 'PyongYang elites' as in muh privileged porky citizens of PyongYang who feast on entire people of DPRK, 'class consciousness' is rising and boiling subtly in other province. One can only hope for 55th dimensional revolution within a decade.

To this day I cannot find the credible or conclusive record of this incident. This is story I heard from group of asylum seekers of DPRK. You may disregard this if you want to.


Emperor. Humanity's (Gook's) last hope against never ending war with imperial pigs of USA.

ah yes, Kim “The Proletariat” Jong-un

No true scotsman is when you make an ``arbitrary`` distinction, saying North Korea isn’t socialist because it doesn’t meet any remotely rigorous definition of the word isn’t a fallacy.

Did you just assume Kim's class? :^)

Try again Holla Forums

Hmmmm. Really polishes those cue balls, doesn't it?

Wtf I critically support Nazi Germany against western imperialism now.

I don't remember neocons and neolibs dominating American politics in the 1940s.

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1/2 of commies:

the other 1/2:

Seems like nothing has changed. Will commies ever learn?

Read Marx.

Imperialism is why they cannot "even get descent shoes" you classcuck.

Yes of course, the evil imperialist ninjas the infiltrate North Korea and make sure they prohibit any form of free market that produces descent shoes.

Here's your (you)
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm

Punp

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But life there is shit. Also Kim's using slave labor in the West for the $$
telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/polish-firms-employing-north-korean-slave-labourers-benefit-from/

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Jesus I knew you guys were delusional but come on…

every tankie argument on DRPK ever

tankies are fucking braindead people, once they drop the hammer and sickle they'll pick up a swastika

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what the fuck is that sauce?

If I'm not mistaken there's no Unions in DPRK

Feudalism, im sorry, capitalism, the free market fight for power and wealth ended in total Kims victory.

my favourite part is how they talk about the racial superiority of the korean people against the subhuman foriegn barbarians

Well they aren't completely wrong. South Korean is a fascist dystopia filled with plastic imitations of natural koreans. I would want to nuke them too if I was in DPRK's position.

south koreans are part of the superior race but they have been tainted by the joo err the forgien barbarians