If we talked it out for awhile we would realize we oppose the same things, the global elite, but for different reasons? Why do we spend so much time fighting each other when we should be working together?
Why don't the far-left and far-right cooperate instead of fighting?
Other urls found in this thread:
I don't like American foreign policy at all. Its controlled by billionaires and weapons manufactures.
No, we would not. We're not opposed to the "global elite" or whatever fancy new antisemitic dog-whistle you've come up with. We're opposed to the whole of the capitalist ruling class, not some arbitrary segment of the bourgeoisie.
Because we have vastly different political projects. It goes way beyond a difference in intellectual motivations, it is anchored in an unbridgeable gap between our respective worldviews.
Now bugger off.
Because the far-right is and always will be cancer. There's nothing we can learn from them because their "intellectuals" are class-cucked NEETs who serve as quasi-controlled opposition for the rich whom they feel kinship with simply because they may somewhat look like them, but who quite frankly don't give a shit about them in return.
I don't care if the billionaires are jewish or not jewish. Either way they are the ones in control of the american government because money can get people elected and they send people to die in unnecessary wars AND they bomb random people in foreign countries who did nothing wrong.
These wars are not benefiting the average american or anyone, it only benefits the rich. We should be cooperating on anti-war movements. That is what I mean when I say we should be cooperating.
I found myself on the far right not because I like other white people, but because I realized that the rich was actively working against the average person's well being. I just can't be far left because I know that communism is not going to be any better.
I keep reading that "global elite" and "globalists" are codewords for Jews. Does that mean Alex Jones' actually a raging anti-Semite instead of the Zionist shill Stormfags and alt-retards think he is?
I'm not working with people who want to ship me to Africa
Maybe your definition of "far-right" is different from mine, but to me it's shouting "DEY TOOK ARRR JERBS!" a lot more than going after the ruling class for causing economic hardship.
It's very often used as an antisemitic codeword, but it's also sometimes used by deranged American paleoconservatives who haven't grown out of their Cold Warrior phase. It's not like there was no significant overlap between the two, anyway.
Considering the racial makeup of Holla Forums you'd at least have some company.
This was meant for .
globalists include neo-liberals who care more about profits than people's well being. Globalism is bad because it is taking power away from more accountable local governments in exchange for far away corrupt world wide institutions. The EU is neo-liberalism in action.
I don't actually hate anyone because they are jewish, the average jew is not a globalist, and most globalists are not jewish.
I don't want to ship you back to africa. Its just I also don't want to fight the ruling class in exchange for another ruling class that is composed of communists.
I'm not blaming immigrants for taking jobs, I'm blaming the ruling class who want to depress wages by taking in lots of immigrants
TBH Alex Jones uses the word so frequently it means nothing from him.
The dog looks like a seal in that picture…
I guess so. He was also married to a Jew which makes his kid according to Jewish religious law Jews too sooo…
In the spirit of compromise, what about a plane ticket?
What makes you believe non-globalist capitalists (if such a thing could be said to exist) don't?
Then why align with a bunch of fascists who think that communism, the elimination of class and the profit incentive behind ruthless capitalism is an evil Jewish plot to destroy the h'wite race?
The rich are using racial tensions to keep all groups fighting each other instead of focusing on them.
This is true for the rich blaming minorities for the problems of white people, but you also need to understand that the recent trend of social justice has just been making minorities blame white working class people for their problems.
It is going both ways.
We fully understand that and oppose identity politics whatever "side" of the racial divide it comes from. We are not liberals.
Because I know the communism is cancer and capitalism would work if we didn't allow governments and capitalism to be in bed together with crony capitalism
I don't think small and medium business owners who care about their community are the same thing as multinational corporations who have only the profit incentive and don't care if they fuck up the country to operate in
That's kind of a false equivalency because minorities, especially the darker they get have not only had to deal with classism throughout history, but also racism which kept the white worker from teaming up with the black worker to take it to the rich. It's not like the blacks of the proletariat throughout history were the ones who used racism as a proxy to protect class interests.
Hey man nice to know you're here too? Where ya from? I'm Chicagoan
Ah, I see where the confusion is. I was also anti leftist for some time for this exact same reason. But I understand that the problems with those failed socialist regimes (I also recognize where they succeeded). And I think we can move forward to create genuine socialism, perhaps this time not use lenisinism and vanguard parties. I lean towards communalism or socialist direct democracy aided by personal technology.
I'm also of the opinion that we need to drop most of our association with the old symbols and historical figures since I think it's what causes most people to reject socialist ideas
I think if you were exposed to socialist ideas without knowing that they were, you'd be a lot more receptive
Londonistan as the alt-retards call it, comrade. I just got woke to this whole class consciousness thing bout a week ago so I'm a total newfag.
You want to cooperate on an anti-war movement? While we are unquestionably against the imperialist proxy wars that keep resource extraction nodes chained to the global capitalist system, we also recognize that there is no way to stop these wars apart ftom violent insurrection. That means no wasting our efforts on the bourgeois election process which is rigged from stem to stern. That means breaking the law and doing honest to God battle with the cops. Would you guys go along with that?
I was a genuine communist as a teenager. I don't think socialism is the answer, but global capitalism is also causing problems.
Local capitalism is amazing, its just when it get disconnected from the community and nation that it becomes excellent.
I am perfectly fine with non-white people living in the same country as me, but we can have every single person in the world come to the rich countries.
Sweden had a very good social system, but it can't sustain itself if the borders are open and anyone can walk in.
not "excellent" I meant excellent
Why do you believe that?
This is a stale libertarian talking point. There is no such thing as "crony" capitalism — collaboration between business and government (in order to safeguard the bourgeois order) is par of the course, not an anomaly you can somehow roll back.
The only reason small- and medium-sized business "care" about their community is because they partly rely on local demand to subsist but once that requirement disappears so does their pretense of "caring". They can be as exploitative as transnational megacorps, they merely lack their scale.
is something causing problem + matic to become excellent?
hello my fellow bong, i'm in rugby
Word filter. Social justice types use the word so much it's become somewhat cliche for them to use
you're retarded btw
You can't not allow government to be a puppet of the bourgeoisie in a capitalist society. Capitalism is inherently a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. They control the state completely, and there is no state structure that is immune to being controled by the dominant class in the society. It does not matter how authoritarian you try to make your state. Power in a society is physical, material–resources, equipment, production, guys with guns.
Rugby? I take it you're from the small town in The Midlands…
Can you explain what you mean by local capitalism? Supporting small businesses? Or something like a localized community that trades within itself and also with other communities? Because if it's the second one, that is literally a type of socialism?
Capitalism by its nature can never be localized
Oh wow, London? How do they treat you over there?
> Local capitalism is amazing, its just when it get disconnected from the community and nation that it becomes [email protected]/* */
Capitalism was arguably even more exploitative when it could be said to be tied to a specific national economy. Where are you from? Were the conditions the working class lived in better over there two centuries ago when capitalism could be "contained" within that country's borders?
Anyway, as I stated earlier: globalism is not an anomaly of capitalism but a feature. You can't have capitalism and somehow have it not seek markets beyond borders.
I'm not interested in "revolution" as you call it. Its just its pretty clear that the rich are in favour of open borders, globalism like the EU, etc.
I wouldn't even mind vast social programs, but they issue is that the current social systems that is in place in western countries cannot sustain itself with the levels of immigration we have been seeing recently.
I care much more for my fellow westerners regardless of skin colour rather than vast numbers of non-westerners. So we need to close the borders if we want to have nice things.
Right-wing socioeconomic policies are, by definition, about concentrating power in the hands of a small ruling class, whether its a king, dictator, nobles, or the bourgeoisie. Just look at the ancaps, their "free market" nonsense just results in massive levels of wealth inequality like it did in the late 1800s and early 1900s which resulted in the Great Depression. Even now the center-right liberals and far-right conservatives both use identity politics to trick people into voting for policies that favor corporations, just look at what Trump has done so far.
Trying to fix that is what the left is about, supporting the far-right will just make things worse. Again, just look at Trump and that should be blatantly obvious. I think a lot of people just confuse neoliberals for "the left" and support the conservatives that oppose them, when neoliberals are also right-wing.
I think a lot of people don't really understand what communism is, there are a lot of different left-wing ideologies, not just Marxism-Leninism. You know that "political compass" test? What most people think of as "communism" would fall in the red square, but there are plenty of systems like Syndicalism and Mutualism which would fall in the green square.
It's actually pretty chill. Same old proletariat pain, but none of that killer cops and for-profit mass incarceration bullshit like in America.
because you're genocidal freaks
Because ancaps are not anarchists.
What do you think of the forthcoming GE?
The taxman's bleeding me and my lot dry so I'm going with Corbyn even though he's not left enough for my tastes.
the far-right on Holla Forums are the ones who are actually succeeding though. Part of the reason we wanted to elect Le_Pen was if we did we might have been able to take down the EU. With Macron the EU is going to remain in place unless we can get enough populist support through memes to get the EU down in other ways.
You can't get people to voluntary give up their possessions and the things they owned and "share" it. I'm more interested in making local governments more powerful and reducing the strength of global and federal institutions instead of pretending any system without a government would ever work.
Corporations are as powerful as they are because they are working together with the government to stop the free market. Ancap would be better than what we have right now. I'm closest to Ancap but I'm more a minarchist since I think borders and a military for defense only like switzerland would be necessary.
Well, how do you expect to defeat "the globalists" then? By voting them out of power?
They are. And as long as they exist as a ruling class, capitalists will push more and more of that. Because it's in their economic interests to do so.
What makes you believe this?
Why is it so?
You're a fool if you believe "closing the borders" would single-handedly "solve" the problem of "globalism". All you'd end up with is the untouched rule of global capitalism with some ineffective protectionist policies.
oh well at least you got your country back from the globalists :^)
But the capitalists have yet to be purged.
Yeah it couldn't be anything to do with skin colour, why would skin colour be relevant when you spend time on a board obsessed with arguing whether the Italians are white or not?
LOL The classic "civic nationalism" meme.
we could take down the globalists if the left were not being there puppets by calling us anti-semitic whenever we pointed out who was pulling the strings of the globalist machine. Its not the lower class jews that are a problem, but many extremely rich jews are working together along with some extremely rich non-jews
The globalists are using words like anti-semitism to stop people from questioning them.
I care about the people I grew up with and who live nearby me, and who have a similar culture as I do. Its not that I don't care about the developing world, its just I don't want them all coming to where I live. We can help them in there own country. It is actually easier that way since money goes a lot farther in the third world than in the first world.
its a good place to start
How's it "da Joos" if half at least 3/4 of all billionaires in the world on Forbes ain't Jewish?
retard tier ideology
those people who argue about whether italians are white are idiots. I'm on Holla Forums because unlike the far-left they are actually succeeding at doing anything
1/4 are though, I think its jumping the gun a bit to claim the problem is caused by jews in general, but just through probability 1/4 of the richest people being jews seems unlikely
The only thing the alt-right "succeeds" at is making "5d chess" excuses for their God-king emperor Trump when he cucks them by sucking off Benjamin Netanyahu.
I don't make any excuses fuck trump fuck zionism
why doesn't the far right learn about left wing nationalism and learn that there is literally no reason to be on the far right
Le Pen would never have "taken down" the EU. At best she would have allowed France to leave it, but even that is actually uncertain as it seems the more traditionally right-wing, economically-liberal faction within the party took over. Anyway, what makes you believe workers would have a better cut of the deal outside the EU?
We're not interested in people's "possessions". We don't want to seize your toothbrush, your wedding ring or your heavy metal records. We want to seize the means of productions (land, factories, machinery, etc) to the benefit of the proletariat.
You're American, aren't you? I'm guessing because you're all about small government and decentralization when Le Pen was all about strong government and unitary centralism.
As they always did since the inception of capitalism. The free market doesn't exist; it's a myth.
So you go from being okay with vast social programs to embracing anarcho-capitalism. Don't you think your worldview somewhat lacks in consistency…?
the far right and the far left is just a false dichotomy they are using to keep us divided. that is what I'm trying to say here
Jews are business savvy. So what? Without them capitalism will still exist with the Rockefellers and Koch Brothers of the world. Besides, even George Soros hates Israel and Zionism. He's got more Dollars than there are Jews on the planet and he's prolly richer than all of them combined. He doesn't need them and doesn't give a fuck bout them and whatever global domination plan they've apparently got cooking.
We oppose them for different reasons, which means we want to replace them with different things. I'm not opposed to limited issue-based collaboration (provided the people we collaborate with aren't just gonna scare off normies with swastika flags) but our goal is the dissolution of all hierarchies and their goal is an ethnically defined hierarchy. And these goals are fundamentally incompatible.
Purging capitalists will just create a vacuum for more capitalists to fill. This isn't feudalism.
Capitalism needs to be slowly dismantled.
Or just rebrand socialism and convince people it's capitalism.
what if we just don't like you? ever think about that?
I'm new to all this Marxism stuff so I don't quite get the ins and outs of how to take down capitalism. I just wanna get to see a workers paradise in my lifetime.
No you couldn't.
"Globalism" is very often used as a codeword for "Jews". You're from Holla Forums, you should know. Of course not everyone who uses it is an antisemite, but that's the sort of political milieu it comes from to begin with.
Therefore, we should ban people from having babies.
So there's a point in space where you stop caring about people because they're not close enough? So Christian fundamentalists and fruity liberals share the same culture as you?
That's correct. But why do you think they try to come to your country to begin with? Because capitalists makes the conditions in their own country unlivable, so they leave and seek better life prospects elsewhere. As long as global capitalism rules over the Earth, global inequality will force the world's poorest to immigrate.
… Like what?
No, it's not. There are core differences between left-wing and right-wing thought that are deep-seated and irreconcilable.
That picture is great, because it quickly makes you realize that the other three are just a stand-in for "the rich", a distraction to keep people's eyes diverted from the actual problem.
"Americans"? Currently the biggest imperialist nation. (As a bonus, also allows American liberals to blame their poorer neighbors rather than themselves.)
"Jews"? Aka "merchants", have been bogeymen for financial elite for centuries, with disastrous results. (Disastrous to poorer members of the ethnicity, of course.)
"The government"? The military arm of the financial elite, protecting their property statesite and their interests abroad. (Also throwing scraps to the lumpen, so the workers and petit bourgs can be convinced it somehow acts in the interest of those poorer than them.)
I'm not talking about Marxism per se, and I wouldn't call myself a Marxist anyway, just pointing out that that tactic wouldn't work in this instance, even if it has in others.
I don't think anyone definitively knows how to take down capitalism, and it's a pretty adaptable and resilient system, with too many people with a vested interest in keeping it going.
It's greatest trick was to convince the victims they needed it to stay for their own good.
Oh wow, Holla Forums sent one of its academics this time.
I'm interested in defeating the eu as an entity. it does not make the europeans lives any better and it stops the individual countries from taking care of the vastly different needs of their individual countries. I like local, responsive government.
people own factories. you would be stealing from people. I don't care if you are stealing from the rich. what I don't like is that we currently have institutions like the EU which are not accountable to anyone.
But she would be taking power away from the EU. France is more local than the EU.
I realize that corporations will always work with the government, but the massive governments we have make it extremely easy for corporations to get unfair deals to the detriment of smaller businesses.
I support self-determination. different peoples will have different needs are desires. they should be able to rule themselves instead of trying a one size fits all approach which seems to be where we are headed
why do you spend so much time defending "business savvy" individuals when you oppose capitalism and business. stop defending them when we try to oppose them. you are doing exactly what they want you too
the problem with trying to eliminate ethnically defined hierarchy is that people naturally want to be around people of the same ethnic group as them. if you let everybody decide exactly who they wanted to live with, they would probably all choose people of the same race. trying to force people of different races to live with each other is just going to breed hatred
If the far-Left itself can't even cooperate to achieve its goals, I don't see how cooperation with the far-Right would do any better
It also shows how they are connected.
American Foreign Policy is Zionist Foreign Policy
Government is controlled by the Rich.
America is the richest country.
Jews are disproportionately rich.
They are all connected.
yes it does or there wouldn't be a queue to join it.
no, not to any meaningful degree.
Macron wasn't a leftist and nobody here supported him, the only person anyone here liked was Melenchon and he also wanted to leave the EU.
Depends on what you mean, look up the difference between "private property" and "personal property". Nobody wants to steal your toothbrush or whatever, people are more than welcome to whatever property they actually use. However, we want to end the practice where someone can "own" land or industry they never use and simply hire others to do so while keeping most of the profit. The only reason some dude on Wall Street has a claim to a business on the other side of the world is because the state enforces his claim to it.
Anarcho-communism and its variants aren't about creating a completely lawless society or anything silly like that, we want to let decisions be made by the people who are actually affected by them. In anarcho-capitalism you would just end up with most of the wealth concentrating in the hands of a small group and they would make all the decisions just like they do now, they just wouldn't have to bribe politicians to do it.
People don't hate globalists because they are jewish. They hate jews because they are globalists. It does not matter who the word comes from.
or you could just ban people who are not citizens from coming into your country and using the systems. why do we have the systems in the first place. Its to serve the citizens of the nation, not everyone in the planet.
Not the exact same culture, but we definitely share enough that I would rather protect them than random people who I share nothing in common with.
This would not be a problem if we had a border that stopped them
not just Holla Forums but right-wing populism is scaring the rich much more than anything the left has been doing. the corporations and social justice crowd are one and the same at this point.
why don't work together to take down the system and then after we can start to kill each other irreconcilable differences
>Government is controlled by the Rich.
t. political philosophy major
yeah and this has nothing to do with antisemitism right lmao
Hey you have a really retarded and simplistic way of thinking about things, with little correlation to facts and knowledge about how things work in the real world. Do you happen to have autism?
I agree wholeheartedly. And while we're at it, we should get water and oil to be friends too.
In truth though, there are just to many differences between us. Right wingers want guns, Left wingers want to use guns to take your guns. Right wingers want to keep what they earn, left wingers want a %100 income tax. Right wingers want free speech, left wingers want blasphemy laws hate speech laws.
Pretty much the only thing they have in common is the belief that oligarchy=bad.
Because leftists are degenerates who think morality is subjective and the right are right.
The only good commie is a dead commie
Nice strawman faggot.
There are borders and immigrants try and come anyway. You're a fool if you believe a fence will stop people desperate enough to risk their life for slightly better prospects. And it's only going to get worse as global warming usher in an era of mass climate-related immigration.
all the "racists" would certainly only be living in same race communities.
now I don't mind living in mixed communities, but I also wouldn't care if I lived in an all white community.
only a small amount of people would refuse to live in a homogeneous community, so over time the homogeneous communities would grow until most people are living in homogenous communities. you could probably model this using a computer and over time you would end up with multiple single race communities every time.
What the fuck are you babbling on about?
You're just pulling things out of your own ass now.
Do you deny that racists exist? If people have even a small inclination to ingroup preference, the end result over time would be people of similar race all living near each other if they had total freedom to choose where they live.
Just look at data in the real world, both hispanics and black people are poor, but they are not living side by side. Poor hispanics live with other poor hispanics, and poor blacks live with other poor blacks.
this was meant for
then we need to build the wall 10 feet higher and make the CO2 pay for it
It's only "scaring" some of the rich insofar as right-wing populists may support policies that are an inconvenience to their direct economic interests but the ruling class knows all too well that they aren't a serious threat.
On the other hand, socialists had capitalists fearing for their very lives for the better part of the 20th century. Which is the reason why the national bourgeoisies of Italy and Germany flocked to Fascism back in the day, by the way.
That's why we here aren't part of that crowd. We're not liberals, we're socialists.
Turns out a wall, landmines, and border police that shoot to kill make a pretty good deterrent to emigration, so why wouldn't they do the same for immigration?
Do you seriously believe they do so out of personal choice?
The problem is that Holla Forums and the like hate on working-class Jewish people too while ignoring all the non-Jewish globalists. Just look at Japan, its generally pretty conservative and monoethnic yet that does nothing to solve their economic issues, their population is shrinking because people there are overworked, sometimes to the point of killing themselves.
I thought you wanted to remove the state which provided those sorts of systems in the first place? Many of us here aren't opposed to normal, small-scale immigration but mass immigration isn't just something that happens randomly and we would rather address the cause rather than the symptoms. People are only fleeing to Europe from Syria because we've spent the past few years bombing the shit out of their country.
Pic related is Iran in the 70s, does this look like some sort of crazy backwards culture compared to the west back then? The main reason the middle east is a shithole these days is due to outside interference like when the US supported religious fundamentalists to overthrow the Iranian government, just like they're doing now in Syria.
The rich are laughing all the way to the bank thanks to this shit, just look at Trump's 15% corporate tax rate, massive military spending increase, privatization of infrastructure, and removal of environmental regulations. They're playing you guys like a damn fiddle.
antisemtism is just the insult the elites are using so they can hold on to power.
The elites are afraid of the far right because they know it can take them down so they are throwing every insult they have at it in an attempt to take it down.
They don't care about the far left because they know you are ineffective
No they didn't, the USSR had capitalists fearing for their lives given the very real possibility that it would embolden revolutionaries to overthrow their own governments.
The turn to fascism arose because the USSR seemed like a much greater threat than some LARPing fascist loons, not because "socialism is the REAL threat! We're so feared by the establishment that most of the Weathermen…went on to enjoy comfy university sinecures"
To elaborate on this point, what's the worse thing that will happen to an African that gets apprehended on his way to Europe? A short stay in a processing centre before being repatriated to whatever shithole he left?
PROTIP: If asylum seekers (as many do) can be repatriated multiple times, it's a pretty good indicator that they don't take seriously current efforts of border patrols to deter them ("What's the worse they'll do? House me and feed me three square meals a day before sending me back to Nigeria?")
Just because the bourgeoisie occasionally use antisemitism as an excuse for shutting down conversation, doesn't mean antisemitism doesn't exist. You proved that by pretending people "hate Jews because they're globalists", which is among the most caricatural antisemitic canards around.
No, they aren't.
The problem with the contemporary left is not that it's "ineffective" but rather that it disintegrated when it couldn't survive the neoliberal onslaught of the late '70s. It is true that socialism is in a sad state of decay, which is why a serious task of rebuilding the workers' movement is at hand.
I also oppose US foreign policy. It never made sense to me until I realized that most US foreign policy is geared towards zionism. In my ideal world we would stop bombing people.
Working class jews are just the puppets and exploited by the elite jews. I don't blame them at all. But calling accusations of anti-Semitism just make it difficult to fight back against the elite jews.
I actually support tax cuts, but I'm against increased military spending. Just focussing on the "rich" is bad when the government is also part of the problem like the original picture of this thread.
Are you retarded? Asking for a friend.
liberals are not social justice people. social justice people are progressives.
I'm just saying this because I was a self-described "liberal" for a long time until I came to Holla Forums and I was never in favour of social justice, I just wanted equality of opportunity
err aren't they kind of the same thing?
and also how could you not want social justice?
i can see how sjws are repulsive, but still
What I'm trying to say is we are arguing over semantics. If lets say the far right and far left had a revolution together, you could split up the land so that the far right could go live in their far right land, and the far left could go make communism a thing in their far left land. The people who are opposing the far left and the far right are the same people so we should be working together to oppose those same people.
You're assuming that as current border control efforts aren't working therefore there's nothing that can be done about such migration.
If Europeans had the stones to sink their vessels and shoot any that came in sight of the border, and actually put effort into border protection you can be sure many would reconsider moving to Europe. But if the worst thing an African will face upon apprehension is a stay at an overcrowded deportation centre, some shit food before being repatriated, why the hell wouldn't they try a second time?
Capitalists feared socialist revolutionaries from the inception of their movement. There's a reason they didn't shy away from having the army shoot into the crowd. Even relatively moderate leftist breakthrough like the Front Populaire in late '30s France had the bourgeoisie shaking in their boots.
Socialism was the real threat to them, so they turned to the Fascists. You've debunked your own point.
"hurr durr some New Left loons turned out to be opportunists therefore socialism is not real"
I mean they have a point. I was only willing to give Holla Forums a shot once my fear of communism was more than my fear of fascism.
lmao are you 14? this is real life not an rts
What I'm saying is we are both interested in tearing things down, so we should tears things down together as friends :)
And yet only resorted to endorsing fascism in the '30s, and only because the economic turmoil of the Depression combined with the USSR lurking on the border of Europe making socialist revolution seem an actual threat.
Though I really don't understand why capitalists fear socialism, considering socialists (and the Left in general) are a much greater threat to each other than the capitalist world order
You're comparing a border designed to keep people in to a border designed to keep people out.
If you can't see why this would have qualitatively different results then I guess you really are retarded.
And I'd take that African over you any day, you useless sack of shit.
Things will eventually break down regardless. The important thing is what happens the day after
R'ing zizek WebM where he explains this
The only difference is that your state has to be so shit that such a border isn't needed to keep people out.
Again if the worse thing that migrants face from European authorities on the border is a detention centre and repatriation, what the fuck would stop them from trying again?
The fact so many "asylum seekers" make multiple crossings isn't a sign that preventing migration is ultimately pointless, it's that European border authorities are so toothless that "asylum seekers" don't think twice about being apprehended by them
How many times does this have to be pointed out? European border guards aren't bloodthirsty maniacs looking forward to the chance of gunning down brown people
U wot m8? Most US foreign policy is about protecting corporate interests and has been for ages, we invaded countries in South America for the sake of the agriculture industry (the US puppet states there were literally known as "banana republics"), and in the middle east its generally because of oil- we fucked over Iran because they nationalized their oil industry, and we're fucking over Syria right now because Assad wouldn't let the Saudis build a pipeline through his country.
The problem is that you're still treating the Jewish members of the ruling class any differently from the ones who are white or black or Asian or whatever, while most of the far-right seems to hate working class Jews as well. If your only issue is with the ruling class then there's no reason to bring race into it in the first place.
You said that the rich were scared of far-right populism when they're the ones who are benefiting from it. The "alt-right" has some very big money behind it, its a largely manufactured movement the same way the SJW craze was.
I feel like this is why I'm a nationalist/nativist because I feel that the left and center right/lolber can actually work together for the cause. Though the problem is that there will always be extremist and the far right is fucking retarded and they don't want to work with anyone.
… Because Fascism was mostly a product of the '30s? Besides, that is not true of the birthplace of Fascism as a movement, Italy, where the bourgeoisie endorsed them as early as they appeared in the '20s. Blackshirts were infamously used as violent strikebreakers.
One group is made of of capitalist class collaborators and then you have people who want to liberate man from the yoke of capital.
Cause when the going gets tough you will literally murder us in our sleep
I'm indifferent to it. I personally don't think it is going to happen, but If it did it would probably be by splitting up the US, in which case I would probably choose to live in the white state.
The jews have the power they do because we let them have that power. Every single culture is anti-semtic except for western culture and that is for a reason. If you trust jews then whatever bad things happen as a result of that are your own fault. If people stopped screaming anti-semitism whenever you questioned a jew's motivations it would be much easier to ignore the jews. The answer to the jewish question is to stop listening to jews.
I personally think that jews/rich are playing the different races off each other so they are distracted and don't realize the real problem is the jews/rich. Race relations would be much better if politicians were not race baiting, but that also includes blaming straight white males for everyone's problems.
So I am civic nationalist, but I have my doubts that civic nationalism could unite us enough that we could say no to the foreign wars and the rich etc
I prefer democratic control by the community to being ruled by a small elite, but I doubt democratic control would actually work.
because they're incompatible. The only people they're going to attack together are liberals and as soon as they run out of liberals, they'll attack each other. Its not tenable. Nazis are not worth dealing with either, what they believe is perverse and requires a degree of mental derangement that isn't worth redeeming or rehabilitating.
These terms are pretty meaningless, and probably designed to make it impossible for a lot of people to have a real discussion. If you can't even communicate, then there is no democracy. In the case of censorship, whether hard censorship like in Europe where they fine/imprison you for naming the jew, or soft censorship like in USA where various organizations just sue you for "antisemitic" speech, at least it's obvious to the censored party that he's being repressed. But when you fall into the trap of expressing your own thoughts via left/right or whatever other nebulous terms they push constantly in the media, then you're the one who's sabotaging yourself.
Prime example: the media represents Marine Le Pen as far-right, but in fact she's more socialist than Emmanual Macron. The reason they portray her that way is to scare french voters, and it works wonders on older people who get all their infos from the MSM.
What's funny about that image is that it effectively demonstrates that nationalism and liberal idpol espouse the exact same theory just with different flags. Of course, the nationalists who spread it around think that the joke is entirely on the liberal idpolers, thus completely missing the implications of their own joke.
So we should get them to post it more
Holla Forums is sceptical of alt-right people who are pro-israel for the very reason you said about the money.
Holla Forums thinks everyone is controlled opposition and I agree to a certain extent. That is why I'm trying to get far-left far-right cooperation. Get the people who are not controlled opposition on both sides to share what they know about groups funding stuff.
What I think is everyone has a different piece of the puzzle. Holla Forums rarely talks about US foreign policy, but islamic extremists rail on about how it is zionist, which I agree, it is also pro-corporate interests, which I also agree.
I am more interested in shaking up the balance of power of the world than I am any particular ideology. The more power we can disperse back down to lower levels of government the better for my goals on opposing concentrated power.
Night of the Long Knives Part 2
Meanwhile, whatever model of government (or lack thereof or whatever) the far left is fighting for will surely succeed this time and not [COLLAPSE] into an Orwellian nightmare like always.
Oh sorry I deleted my comment when I realized you had answered most of this stuff.
Do you think it would make sense to have the economy be controlled democratically the same way our government is *supposed to be**? In the opinion of most here vast inequalities in wealth will inevitably become vast inequalities in power. Only when the economy is democratically controlled by the working class majority will we have true democracy. Under a capitalist economy extreme wealth inequality will always lead to political rule by a small elite.
yeah the labels are meaningless. I have to thank Holla Forums for deprogramming me. I saw how the world really worked. There is a jewish conspiracy no matter how much leftists try to deny it exists. But to focus on only the jewish conspiracy is also blinding you to the way the whole world works.
The way I see things now is that every organization is looking out for its own interests no matter how much they claim to be democratic.
The way I see it now is the entire world is just corrupt and everyone is playing everyone else off each other.
The left-right divide is just a way they try to keep us divided instead of cooperating.
Ironic choice of words
I am not wedded to any particular system, rather I was to do my best to disperse power to as many different people as possible.
Having an armed population takes power away from the government because the government would not be able to enforce its will unopposed on the people.
Having lots of small countries instead of one big county (read EU) means that its more difficult for an organization to enforce its will on all those countries.
Even if it is a big country, like the US, giving more power to the states prevents the federal government from being too powerful.
Ideally if one of these countries becomes oppressive then at least there is an escape, in the same way, a country could nationalize the foreign assets if it felt it was being exploited by international capital.
In my ideal world we would not concentrate power, but disperse it so that no one body could control all the others.
Communism is pretty clearly controlled opposition. It was never meant to work. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. Give a small elite political power.
maybe because our goals are nowhere near close to each other? yes, maybe your "jews" or "global elites" consist of some of the bourgeoisie, but that is a pretty small similarity
plus in fighting capitalism, I do also want to fight for plenty of people that the far right hates
I'm closer to the average liberal than you guys. the average, "civilian" liberals are simply pseudo-enemies, they're the kind of enemies that should join us once we're strong, once they realise that their egalitarian ideals can't be realised through their stupid, utopian means. racism, for example, is no good, but fighting it truly requires much more than cultural means.
note: the actual porkies using liberal ideals to advance their class politics are, of course, true enemies. but the people who are simply misguided and lack class consciousness? I'll gladly debate with them.
It can go both ways for sure. However, I feel that it is important to have social cohesion among workers. They need communicate through a common culture and language. Identity is a huge part of human nature, and while it is used by bourgeoisie to divide and conquer; it shows that we as a species are tribal and social creatures. We need unity in a nation because your fellow workers are neighbors with common values.
As always, a leftist literally using Jew media gobbledygook to explain himself.
Read a book you fucking lazy faggot.
did you completely miss the events of the 20th century?
yes the socialist experiments more or less failed, but in no way were they controlled opposition. they literally fucking killed the rich and/or took their possessions. they forced the elites in other areas to please the workers much more (mistreat them too badly and you risk a real revolution). the capitalists were fucking scared of communism.
nowadays communism is just kind of dead as a global movement
This is your body on rightism
.A Holla Forums fag telling a communist to read a book
Exactly. I'm still pissed that SJW progressive nonsense derailed the occupy wall street protests.
Far-lefty's take note. The far-right is the only people seriously considering taking down the international banking system. But you guys are too busy saying the only reason we want to that is because we hate the jews.
How much control? Is every "controlled opposition" equally controlled? Using this term unqualified brings you into the land of binary logic. It seems to be used this way mostly to discredit without actually proving anything.
Reminds me a lot of how "conspiracy theory" was used for the longest time, until recently when the "tin-foil hatters" were proven to be right many times over and over again. But the term was used mostly to discredit someone and discourage any meaningful discussion.
controlled opposition is usually an opposition group created by the current powers that be so that if the opposition to their power gains too much steam, at least the fall will not be a complete defeat and instead a strategic retreat,
In this way the zionists have attempted to co-opt the alt-right to be pro-israel so that at least if white nationalism proves to be too powerful to go away, at least israel existence is legitimate since its just another ethnostate. For this reason many people on Holla Forums don't like richard spencer because he is pro-israel.
I'm skeptical that any one group has enough power to have everyone be controlled opposition, but due to the fact that communism never works and people still keep trying it I'm fairly sure communism is controlled opposition since they just want it to be an outlet for partisan anger that just ends up with a different elite.
Essentially the ending of animal farm is the desired result of communism, not the tragedy.
Animal Farm was a critique of Marxism-Leninism, you moron. Orwell was a socialist.
can you explain what Orwell's ideal system would look like and how it was different than marxist-leninism? I know Orwell was a socialist, but not every socialism is the same thing, I was talking about revolutionary communists.
Parts of left also engage in anti-state action, socialism goes against the global capitalistic order and it is true populism in some regard. The far-right also likes to deregulate the economy thus causing inequality making a different 🍀🍀🍀elite🍀🍀🍀 class. Plus the far right people I've meet in real life are fucking retarded and couldn't organize shit, at least
the liberals can do their little powwows. I just want a happy, unified nation state that relies on family values, and is a place where each individual can support himself without paying mortgage/rent to a higher class. I also want a nation-state where the individual workers have true ownership of personal property and the means of production. While we are all individuals, we have to understand individuals make up a community.
Well Orwell was an anarchist so there is quite a bit of contention between him and the ML of the time.
The only example of anarchy that happened in real life was civil war spain. I don't actually know how that turned out but you can probably tell me.
exatcly what I'm saying is that the far-left is spending way too much time fighting the far-right like with antifa when we should be taking anti-state actions together
revolutionary shinmin (shit example though because the chinese and japanese destroyed much documentation of it) and the ukraine free territory are two others I can think of, but I will leave it to an anarchist to explain.
You do realise Orwell fought for and alongside Spanish Anarchists, yes?
I could say the same about Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy and Spain.
Really fucking bad since it was basically anarchists vs. communists vs. fascists with the USSR supporting both sides. Communists wanted their propaganda state while the anarchist didn't want none and formed trade unions. It was general chaos and the fascists came out on top. Plus the classless society in Barcelona apparently only lasted like 3 months. Read Homage to Catalunya
Also I get pissed when people say leftists can't be nationalist
Fought with the communists (POUM I think) who fought beside the anarchists, and later wrote in support of both.
lolwat, what about the POUM?
Nazi Germany had to fight the Soviet Union, the British Empire, and the USA. If they didn't collapse after all that then I would have been surprised.
Francoist Spain only failed after Franco died, and even in that case it failed with a peaceful transition of power.
They didn't have to fight the Soviets they chose to and if they hadn't they prolly would have won, the dumb fuckers
The Soviets are the only people I would have wanted them to fight. If they cooperated with Poland against the Soviets instead of invading we could have avoided the cold war
The fuck are you on about they had to put all their best soldiers on the eastern front and still got their shit kicked in.
Stuck between the gommunists and anarchists. Got blamed for shit they didn't do. Communist framed them and imprisoned them where most of them died. The media establishment at the time wrote a bunch of smear pieces towards POUM. Orwell was one of the few who spoke positively about them.
We blame the rich jews that control the government.
Because the far-right is for property, and the left is against it?
If you Holla Forums think so much in the working class without a race, why don't you redpill you black brother from fucked areas like Detroit? All I see at any communist rally are 90% white people.
Show that to them not to me. Don't you think Black Lives Matter was made to prevent solidarity?
And if so, who is behind Black Lives Matter? Is it the jew that Holla Forums opposes?
If Holla Forums would take out the jew, won't your black brothers and sisters be released from the jewish slavery and be able to receive the message of Holla Forums without juden interference?
-And the 4th, jokes disguised as other ideologies, but those are not important
Capitalists have the power because of reasons that trying to explain would get me banned thanks to retarded mods who would confuse it with justification/support
That neither fascists or comunists lack any power doesn't make them any more friends, they're still 2 diferent ideologies who are pushing for completely diferent things
Obviously both fascists and comunists critize who is in power, capitalists, this might look like they are closer ideologies than they really are.
What i'm trying to say is don't get confused, fascism is not another form of capitalism, but because it is a diferent forceful ideology that is meant to destroy comunism as much as capitalism
Nazis try to justify this by believing capitalists are on their side, then they wonder why their lives haven't improved once the Jews have been subjugated or murdered or expatriated. Next thing you know, it wasn't the Jews, it was Mexicans/blacks/gypsies. And so the wheel turns, nazis struggle against their own net of idpol eternally.
Because the goals of the far left and the far right couldn't be further away from each other
Fascists are also anti-capitalism, does that mean we should align ourselves with them? Fuck off
Whatchu smoking, m8
That's the root of it. Now, it is possible if the Asserites and the left can work together sense both seek to end private property, but you cannot over throw capitalism without getting rid of private property.
The far right still strongly holds private property as sacred. As long as they do, the red brown alliance is just a romanticized fiction.
Hell no. If you get rid of some porkies and leave others all you will accomplish is to makes those others even wealthier. Killing George Soros but leaving Bill Gates alone gets you nowhere. The remaining porkies will continue the exact same policies, just like they are doing right now. Jews are not making the bourgeois class misbehave. Their class interests are spurring them to action.
It's supposed to be conservatives who's opinions are informed by south park
The things the far right want to achieve seem infinitely more unjust and undesireable than what the global elite are doing right now and I don't think their opposition to "global elites" is meaningful or that they're even correct in identifying who those elites actually are.
It's not the Jews, it's not "globalists", it's not "crony capitalism" - it's the bourgeoisie. And unless the far-right acknowledge this co-operating with them wouldn't actually accomplish anything because we're completely at odds with who we're opposed to and how to do things.
The americans are to blame. Both the government but also the american people.
120 million people get out of their houses and voted Trump or Hillary, which shows their people trust their candidates and trust their democratic system and liked the ideas of those folks.
They also don't seem to care that their taxes money pay for Guantanamo bay, creation of Isis and Alqaeda, military interventions in other countries. American people go outside and protest when their elected leaders talk about taking away their gun rights. So why don't they protest about this? Because they don't care or they agree.
They don't care that they're leaders are pushing for american globalism. They are part of the problem.
Every american must be killed, regardless of race, gender or political believes.
What up my brothers. I'm from Milwaukee.
What do you think about mutualism?
BLM was suppose to be a message saying please include us as a group of people that actually matters.
However it fails because of one simple reason.
Black lives don't seem to matter to black people.
Fred Hampton would love the message but hate the fucking movement because it doesn't teach black people that we need to care for ourselves AND others.
Mr. Nazi, the real problem is that during the 80s and early 90s black people were socially programmed to self destruct ourselves. That's why the 60s and 70s movements all failed for the most part.
Can I die while busting a nut?
But on a serious note, as much as I think the socdems aren't really on our side. They are our only hope for now in the U.S. for something even close to socialism unfortunately. Bernie was the best chance and we failed.
I have to say though, learning about Bernie ultimately lead me here to leftypol.
This is unironically my dream, but only because I've abandoned all hope of a better world.
Even if "after hitler our turn!" ends up being "After Hitler I'm slowly choked to death by a carbon dioxide van that single-handedly ends the myth of germanic efficiency" at least I'd die knowing that neoliberalism ended.
But that's all it's worth: We oppose some of the same things because they're obstacles to actual change, they impose this stagnant world where we pretend ideology has been erased. Once that world is gone, we're going to realize that the things we actually want instead of the things we oppose are severely divergent.