AnComs

Red pill me on AnComs and their view on freeze peach.

Other urls found in this thread:

humaniterations.net/2012/02/29/you-are-not-the-target-audience/
mappingpoliceviolence.org/aboutthedata/

...

nice strawman you got there

your peaches are frozen, that doesn't mean there are no consequences :^)

ah yes, we love corporations
I'm waiting on my soros check as we speak

He makes a good point though. People would take you guys more seriously if you all weren't associated with Antifa and their autistic screeching any time someone you disagree with wants to give a speech.

we can't if you come in with your loaded questions, baseless assumptions, strawmen and bad faith

I actually come here in good faith.
I know little about the subject.
Those comments are from a friend of mine.

I fucking despise antifa though. I'm ancom with leftcom leanings, not some anarcho-liberal. I like anarchism more than that I like 'anarchists'.

...

Fair enough. You should honestly just go leftcom. At least they get /comfy/ armchairs and lots of theory.

depends on what you mean by consequences.

holy shit stop treading on me, you're violating the NAP. Is a man(corporation) not allowed to engage in free-enterprise, is a man(corporation) not allowed free-association?

...

You're more like most anarchists than you think. You're 13 and wrong.

If people can be fired for the things they say because freeze peach, then why do you call the firings of communists an attack on civil liberties?

Free speech guarantees you speech, it doesn't guarantee you a platform. Nothing stopping you from getting up on a soapbox with a megaphone like all the end is near dipshits on any college campus you want.

Your friend is a retard.


really make me think

Ancaps demanding companies follow a document that creates the state they claim to oppose

truly a superior ideology

You need a megaphone permit in NYC.

Being critical of activism is actually pretty retarded. Calling it larping is a meme because that's your theory.

Wow, very fucking substantive. Pointing out that half the people using black bloc tactics aren't even Leftists, but are mostly pissed off Libs with no connection to the Left, makes you 13. Good stuff. :^)

The difference between activism and LARPing is whether it accomplishes political change (or at least attempts to) or just makes the participants feel good. Useful activism basically doesn't exist anymore because global capitalism has done a lot of work to commodify political outrage and to contain it.

In theory, anarchists oppose private property. In practice I've found they're sympathetic to property rights when they believe they will personally benefit from them.

Being against activism as a whole because of memes does make you 13 though.
Not understanding the necessity of fighting back, this imaginary scenario where we are the aggressors, makes you 13 or suburban.


Why political change? Why not just change? The point is to remove a potential or direct danger. Just because you don't like that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

When a lot of online activism consists primarily of getting bourgeois institutions like Twitter to censor speech, implying you can trust them to not also censor leftist speech.
The bourgeois institutions that censor right-wing speech censor leftist speech just as much, if not more so.

No shit. People are going to do what's in their interests. Unironically, the only people who can actually be anarchists are lumpens or proles with nothing like private property at all.


Because the problem is the system that, for example, doesn't house everyone. Getting a person housing isn't activism in itself, but using that action to get people moving to change the system so that problem won't be produced in the future would be activism.
You say that, meanwhile there are anarcho-LARPers who knock over trash cans and literally advocate getting their own people hurt because that supposedly helps radicalize them.
humaniterations.net/2012/02/29/you-are-not-the-target-audience/

I understand that the biggest problem is the system.
You seem to not understand that other problems besides the system do in fact exist, like cancer, or volcanoes, and one of those other problems is right wing violence in many communities. That's something where looking at the bigger picture is important yes, but it would be unreasonable to request people ignore the direct and immediate danger.

As well as that
does not mean I am wrong.

Eventually, we are supposed to reach the endgame of "AnCom" (I'm simplifying a lot; I know Mutualists, Anarcho-Syndicalists, "Anarchists without Adjectives", et al don't like being put under one umbrella): No Gods, No Masters. No State, no Hierarchies. No restrictive Bourgeois principles, no Commodity Fetishism. No Spooks.

Are they allies? Sure. They can be. They, just as we all, just need to apply their tactics toward one central aim from which subsidiary and tangential aims will follow:


As for frozen peaches, acceptance or rejection, in any degree, is not a matter of Marxist or Marxian thought. I don't see why either is reified. Yes, Negative Rights are Bourgeois constructions, but if people want to express themselves it's not necessarily in our interests to stop the more than it is to debate what is being expressed in an open forum.

Yes. Their primary concerns seem to be:
If some Antifa do participate in successful strikes against the State, especially its warmaking, and against Porky, especially the most egregious aspects of exploitation, then I applaud them. But AFAIK, they are not as active in these matters as they are in refugee/migrant/asylum seeker activism.

Activism is a lot more specific than solving a problem.

Read this post you pathetically retarded pseud.

Unless it's a fascist state, these anarchists would call themselves something else, they would take up a different temporary title for their actions, similar to how antifascism is a temporary title for actions taken against fascists and fascism.
What you're doing is effectively conflating anarchism, antifascists, every person who ever uses black bloc tactics, as all different wings of the same group, which is nonsensical.
I'd bet money your fear of idpol excludes your own idpol though, like all the other retards who get their education from chans.

It's more direct action yeah. It's not incorrect or useless actions.

Okay.

It seems you are emotional at the moment. I hope I can diffuse that as rationally as possible.

We're in agreement. I also agree that problems may be put in proportion. This is why triages exist. This is why thread matrices exist.

We're in agreement. I also agree that problems may be put in proportion. This is why triages exist. This is why thread matrices exist.

We're in agreement. I also agree that problems may be put in proportion. This is why triages exist. This is why thread matrices exist.

We're in agreement. I also agree that problems may be put in proportion. This is why triages exist. This is why thread matrices exist.

Furthermore on the matter of Right Wing violence:
I recognize State-directed (war, police) violence.

I recognized State-sanctioned (property owners') violence.

I recognize direct violence by groups and individuals outside the direction or sanction of Capital or the State.

However, many examples of the third category that are touted for "Western" countries peter out when looked at empirically.

For example: once the "Mapping Police Violence" incidents are looked at for the US, and pared down to only police violence against "Hispanic" and "Black" individuals, the vast majority of such incidents are completely justified. Does that mean racial profiling, police brutality, and systemic racism doesn't exist? Of course not. It just needs to be put in proportion, and those that tout sensationalist red herrings must be exposed so our resources are not unwisely expended.

For example: once the "1 in 5 women on college campuses are sexually assaulted" methodology is looked at, we can see that the sample size and sample diversity extremely limited, and the questions asked (Improper language, improper approaches) were overly broad. Does that mean hatred of women, sexism, and systemically ingrained gender biases and norms don't exist? Of course not. It just needs to be put in proportion, and those that tout sensationalist red herrings must be exposed so our resources are not unwisely expended.

We're in agreement. I also agree that problems may be put in proportion. This is why triages exist. This is why thread matrices exist.

As well as that "these guys did [x]" does not mean I am wrong.
"We're in agreement. I also agree that problems may be put in proportion. This is why triages exist. This is why thread matrices exist."

I don't disagree.

I agree pursuant to the concept and movement of Antifascism. I disagree as it pertains to many of those that call themselves "Antifa". I do not find them (though maybe they are) successfully attacking or defending people from:

State-directed (war, police) violence.

State-sanctioned (property owners') violence.

Direct violence by groups and individuals outside the direction or sanction of Capital or the State.

Protesting some LARPing Nazis, Confederate monuments, the ruler-of-the-term, or the issue-of-the-week doesn't seem to be a good use of time.

I am not.

I never said I fear IdPol. I do think mahy of those that use IdPol descriptive lenses and IdPol prescriptions are
1. Liberal or Liberal co-opted
2. Lacking in Empiricism
and/or
3. Diverting resources away from successfully attacking or defending people from:

State-directed (war, police) violence.

State-sanctioned (property owners') violence.

Direct violence by groups and individuals outside the direction or sanction of Capital or the State.

Yes, I do find them doing good things in such things as refugee/migrant asylum seeker activism.
Yes, I do find them doing things that don't have any success one way or the other (protesting Liberal headline-of-the-week).
Yes, I do find them doing things outright unsuccessful or detrimental (kicking over trashcans).

I don't doubt that,due to human nature, I seek, recognize, and apply group identity to matters that don't have anything to, or are detrimental to, attacking the System, but I make conscious efforts to reorient myself.

You know nothing of my formal or informal education. I am also fairly new (2 or so months) to imageboards.

If you're content with just allowing yourself to be a victim of that violence, sure. This is why anti-fascism exists. To stop and prevent it.

Since you agree that problems other than the system exist, and it's okay to take action because of them, then I don't quite get why this action is suddenly bad. Is it because anarchists do it, would it be okay if it were more of a off-brand vigilante thing?

I fail to see how police violence can be justified in any situation.

I fail to see how taking a bit from a video where sargon misrepresented a study is putting anything in proportion. Or where else did you get that one from?

Then you agree that we should take action to prevent or stop right wing violence in an immediate and direct way in our communities? As doing anything else would basically boil down to ignoring it.

Then it was quite silly to say antifa should attack the state. I agree that anarchists should attack the state.

Would you say you live in a fascist state? And at the point that they begin attacking these things they would be more of a federation, an army, a collection of autonomous communities, not a short term affinity group.
I thought your type got mad when businesses are attacked for these sorts of things.
What I advocate stopping and also what I advocate using to stop it.
Intentionally underselling the scope of right wing violence doesn't mean action shouldn't be taken even if it were as minor as "larping" nazis. Or as I'd call it, just nazis. Normal nazis.


But this board hypocritically never calls out its own identity politics. The nazis use idpol. The communists use idpol. The anarchists, liberals, conservatives, they all use idpol.
It's got me thinking, why are the marxists here so obsessed with what I believe is a mostly anarchist critique?


I wouldn't call that "anti-fascist action" I would call that normal action.
Because kicking over a trash can is detrimental.
Because you couldn't ever have the intention of moving it somewhere.


Due to capitalism more like.
Well they suck. People leech off consensus.

Any AnCom who would demand a business to silence fascists for them is retarded.
They should be bashing the fash themselves.

Why not both depending on what you're currently capable of?

I mean bashing both not speaking to business owners.

I understand, but in many cases those operating under the banner of "Antifa" do no such thing, or try to do such things but unsuccessfully.


Because many of these "actions because of them" either divert resources from attacking the system or are poor at attacking the system. I'm not aware of any Antifa operations that did anything of import besides trolling frognazis (if that can be considered of import) and pissing off petit bourgeois "Middle Class" Liberals.

I don't care about which actors do what.

I don't have much concern about branding and some concern over tactics (making a general mess, trash fires, weapons usage where it is not necessary, no weapons usage where it may be necessary, poor OpSec and InfoSec, etc.)

Police arrive at an assault/rape/murder in progress.
An officer magdumps at center mass of the assailant/rapist/murderer.
I may not agree with other operations those officers, their department, or the entities and powers they work under direct or sanction, but I support that entirely.

What? The last video I watched of his was where he claimed a welfare state was needed to stop a workers' uprising. I'm talking about MPV itself. Their spreadsheet is free to download.

Pics related.

MPV
mappingpoliceviolence.org/aboutthedata/
"Download the Data"

Yes, though mean words and rallying around some statues does not "Right Wing violence" make. Calling everyone and everything a Nazi, then sanctioning violence against all perceived Nazis, just makes regular people rally around real Nazis.

If these people were around during the 1860s, they would have called Marx a capitulator to Capitalists by supporting Lincoln and his Capitalist, Statist, Hierarchical, and racist policies and means in defeating the Feudal, Agrarian, and even more racist Southern United States. They have little sense of scale, proportion, or differences between Imperialist and Imperialist thought.

If they have a means of attacking the State and Capital directly and successfully, I would support them. Trolling frognazis ans suburbia doesn't seem to do either.

I would say I live in a Late-Stage-Capitalist state that is teetering on Fascism-proper.

I'll be quite honest with you: I do not trust these people to be in any organized fighting or defensive unit. I went to two "workshops": one didn't like my speaking up for security and defense because of my being "White" and male speaking before "POC" and females, and the other just had people nodding along without any real understanding.

I'll choose my words very carefully for legal reasons: the short response is no. The long response is why break the windows of some petit bourgeois shopkeer, while barely making any effort at taking control of any centers of power (which I would not recommend without a lot of personnel, materiel, and planning)?

We seem to agree, but differ on what constitutes a valid threat in this regard, and what constitutes a proper response in this regard.

Since you used "your type", it seems you see yourself as being part of a "type". So I will say this: your type seems to over-inflate Right Wing violence (minor change to some statute that leaves the effect largely the same), not care about some aspects of Right Wing violence until politically expedient(e.g. same thing done under President X now done under President Y, newspapers make a fuss, people protest), and misplace or misprioritize Right Wing violence (attacking phantoms and toy dogs in the "West" while ignoring active monsters in other parts of the world).

I think action could and should be taken, but prioritized. These people as I see them are bottom-tier threats. Paper tigers.

Some literally do just LARP.

I am saying Liberals
1. Disproportionately do it
2. Disproportionately focus on it relative to things like seizing the MOP and smashing the State at most and advocating for better factory/farming conditions exposing operations of the MIC and at least
3. Disproportionately get motivated by the headline-of-the-week aspect of it without empirically looking at the veracity of claims of injustice against various groups (or people for some identity) , the methodologies of those claims, and the degrees to which the actions claimed actually occur.


I'm honestly not familiar with the culture of this board.

Sure.

I'm unsure really if that's based on a valid description, and if it is, why that is.

I am just saying I know or have seen some Antifa members do such activities and I consider it part of a set of positive activities.

Bad optics. Same with punching and kicking cars.

From most of the videos I have seen such incidents are the result of poor discipline and control of emotions.

You just mentioned that "communists use idpol. The anarchists, liberals, conservatives, they all use idpol"
We have non-class-based temporary Identity-groups like the Kurdish Communists, Polish Resistance, etc. The recognition of a group identity, seeking group identity, and maintenance of group identity seems to go beyond merely Capitalism.

I'll lurk and see.

Due to capitalism more like.
Well they suck. People leech off consensus.

They should still do it, just better.

Because it's an immediate, and direct thing. There is a problem, the solution is direct action. Yes, it is diverting resources, these resources are people and the things that belong to them and I trust in a class conscious communities ability to assess threats. When they attack the system they would call themselves something other than antifa but we don't have the numbers or tools for that right now. I don't for sure.

I've always wanted better organization and more impactful violence.

I can think of plenty of other alternatives, better alternatives. For the police to stop this crime with confidence they must exist in some form or another, that's already something they can't redeem themselves for.

I was talking about the rape thing.
Are you going to say this is all we can expect from the far right?
Were you called a nazi once?
Violence against our enemies. Yes.
That's a common misconception on the internet, chans specifically, and I've never seen any evidence that wasn't anecdotal but my anecdotes say most people are either neutral or kinda glad when someone beats down a fascist. Especially old people. Now this is a rural community if that changes anything I don't know.
Not all do. They attack what they can and what is the most immediate direct concern in their lives. If it requires ignoring themselves for your plans then I doubt they care much about having your support.
Then anarchists who fight it would call themselves anarchists.

You mean anarchists? The people who we hope will emancipate themselves? You're included in that second one at least.
Okay. Tell them it feels bad.
Are you sure they didn't understand, or did you just not like them and were pretty sure they were stupid?

Because we're poor, and there's not really that many of us, so we do not have a lot of personnel, materiel, and planning in many cases, and have to work with what we do have or do nothing.
I want better anarchist organization. I also want people to attack nazis and businesses.
A valid threat is anything that will be violent, perpetuate violence, or incite violence. A proper response is stopping it, with violence. I'd say.

Because this is all they're capable of?

I always took this as new people becoming socialists, not socialists suddenly becoming apologists for liberals.
You would consider it an example of good priorities to have violence inside your community that you have the tools to fight placed lower on the list than violence in a place much harder to reach that you do not have the tools to fight?
And why not a bit of both anyways if you're capable?
So is the north american left. We make do with what we have. We do not have much.
We need organization. We need new revolutionaries. We need media spectacle, and much more people.


Okay.
Okay well they're liberals of course.
Sure, they're liberals what else do you expect.
I'm an anarchist?

They'll disagree, they'll just call it "/r9k/ shit" but the truth of the matter is it is right wing idpol.
Fight me about it you tankie faggots.
Because they want to justify hypocritical behaviour.

Proper organization could fix this, but at the same time, how much does it really hurt as long as larger targets are focused on?

Currently capitalism. Any hierarchical society will do it though. Fractured group identities like that will be, I believe a much smaller thing once divides created by hierarchy become much blurrier and smaller with hierarchy being gone and all.