Hello, I'd just like to talk about something real quick, and also please do not take this very seriously...

Hello, I'd just like to talk about something real quick, and also please do not take this very seriously, I just want to have a friendly chat and nothing else.

So recently I joined up a local.. thing, where we do leftist politics. At least that's what we say we do. And I dont want to criticize the works or the theory. It's just that I became so disenchanted and disappointed by it all, and I dont know how to fix it myself, or what to do.
Someone please tell me what to do to fix this.

Basically: leftist ideology in practice creates overly entitled losers. There I said it, everyone I met just complains and complains and complains, for ever. 'It's the system, maaaan, nothing we can do'.
Always excuses. Always complaining. For people saying they are 100% materialistic, there is this ideal of entitlement, scapegoating, complaining, angst.. not even to mention that half of the people I've met were just absolutely worthless suburbanites living off of daddy money, basically living the capitalist dream and not knowing anything else and not even really trying to do anything about it other than superficial bullshit, and I honestly suspect half of them would be dead or just unfit for life outside the bubble daddy created for them.

Honestly, I dont know what to do. I got a few friends who are full on ethnic cleansing enthusiasts, that sort of thing, but I've attended a few of their crap just to see what else is going on out there in the world. And it made me see merit in hierarchies.
These guys, they are something different. They are 100% idealistic, but I think that's the only thing that works.
Over half of them are poor, they make you stand still in a line, they shout in your face, they tell you you are a worm, you are nothing, you are worthless, you deserve nothing, you own nothing, and you should get the fuck out if you dont like it. They make you run in the forest, they make you lift, they kick you out for doing drugs, or for anything they might consider weakness/de-generacy.
They have these fake made up bullshit ranks and titles, but it all works. Everyone higher up at least looks like he earned his place in a hierarchy, and everyone is motivated to keep his place. While everyone in the bottom honestly thinks the goal is good, that hierarchy is also good, that he can rank up, earn his place, and enjoy it all in the end. Or just stay for ever at the bottom, not like he is entitled to anything better.

I honestly dont know what to do. Left wing ideology (the one I observed here, Serbia) is utterly defeatist.
Right wingers are utterly anti-defeatist.
I fear that right wingers, thanks to their anti-defeatism and nothing else, will easily take over. They dont care they are oppressed, or that it's unfair, or even totally futile. They box, run, build weapons, and bury ammo. Their ideology propels them forward.


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Oh and also thanks for reading. I just want to see if there's anything that can even be done here.
I fear that leftism, over here but also in general, is full of these 'casuals' if you will. This general 'all welcome' message really has its downsides.
I need to figure out a way to build an incentive up until the day comes that humanity no longer needs any incentives. But it's just that today, and here more than in few other places, such a thing is impossible, it's pure utopianism good for unproductive daydreaming and nothing else.

What do?

I'll admit we have a defeatism problem here. Your best bet is to bully everyone and call them cowards. We're living in some of the craziest times, with a terrifying future facing us, this should galvanize support, but instead we get people using us as their agony aunt. Just keep throwing punches fam, that's all life is about.

Defeatism is primarily a problem of not seeing any legitimate path to accomplishing our goals. So, you need to either convince them you've got a bullshit path to success or present them with a legitimate path to success.

Here's my legitimate path to success: entryism among left wing groups to create a united front.

The problems of Leninism

No, nothing will ever get done this way.

The more I think about it, the more I think that a formal hierarchical system is the only thing that can achieve communism. I've never seen a revolution tier material because of the 'all welcome' message. No one serious, or capable. It's all just.. undesirables.

Hell even when looking at unions, what worker unions do the best? Pilots, and doctor unions. Engineers dont even need one, they keep getting best pay and work conditions because of how useful they are.

So even among the workers, you can clearly see hierarchies. You can clearly see some people are much smarter or responsible than others. Every time I see someone complaining lately.. 9 out of 10 times they deserve what they got.

Leftism, with its current message, just keeps piling undesirable complainers who will never achieve anything other than outdoing one another at mental gymnastics in the discipline of coming up with an even more excuses.

That's not what defeatism means.

also, pic related. At this point you'll do more than every leftist org in America by spamming Bordiga.

Are you that nazbol faggot with a hard on for dugin?

God leftcoms are pathetic.

Please end yourself, immediately.

user just keep bullying the weaker willed people and a hierarchy will form from it, you don't need a formal system to get things done, you need to be the stronger and more charismatic person in the group.

They'd already be fixing the group instead of bitching on leftypol were that the case

Not all hierarchy is "bad," I feel like this is an incorrect assumption about us leftists.

Great thread, OP
Personally, I don't think it's so much a matter of hierarchy vs. non-hierarchy as it's a matter of doing something productive. If your leftist organisation isn't actually doing anything, then all you'll get is a bunch of whiners; but if your organisation is studying, producing material, campaigning, or doing militia training like your right-wing group is, then you'll be way more effective and you can build from there.

Good point Satan.

I fear that our current interpretation of leftist thought acts like a filter, a filter that lets all the shit stay, and pushes the non-shit away.

No for real, 'communism aint free' spurdo meme would be great here. Communism will never happen because all communism advocates push for weakness, toleration of consumerism, bullshit, self-centered casuals who are in it just to give themselves a false sense of…………. alternative worth.


But our current interpretations pushes the revolution material away. They are all overly sheltered, delusional, looking at things from the viewpoint that communism can be achieved tomorrow, and that
Yeah im mad. I've got one life and it's been kinda bad for the longest time. Communism would make everything better.

Thank god, for a second I thought about you were talking about ethno-nationalist groups in the US and it definitely rattled me.

But yeah there are a lot of problems with the current left-wing ethos. Too big parts of the issue.
1. The left has fully embraced a victim culture where our path to victory is based off moralizing at people until they give us what we want. Thus we end up attracting all manner of social outcasts who bring with them a defeatist mindset. We need to return to the old left ethos of we (workers) built the world and we can control it because we are powerful when united as a class. Instead we have people who feel powerless and weak and see no path to victory.

2. Encouraging discipline, militarism, physical bravery, and physical fitness is seen by many as somehow reactionary or even fascistic. These are all good things and they were encouraged by the old left but are total faux pas' to encourage now. Can you imagine telling people we should get in better shape at a leftist meeting you'd have hamplanets screaming in your face about bodyshaming.

It sounds cliche because its the answer to everything on this board, but the victim mindset and rejection of the traits I discussed both result from the left's infestation with idpol. Idpol is a big part of what attracts social outcasts and other people with victim mindsets. Also the rejection of the traits I discussed definitely has to do with their association with masculinity which according to idpol retards somehow makes them reactionary.

Also, you were born to working parents, and you will die as worker. Not working is bourgeois decadence, get try rid of it. Muh capitalism ending will not end your job, even if world revolution would take off now, we all would be working, maybe only a little less, at least for a few decades until worldwide situation stabilize. Or we can wait with revolution till full automatization kicks in so we will have no need for work after one, but that's long way to go.

serves you right, faggot

No for real I had a talk with a junkie retard who has a rich daddy and he just keeps being high and telling us all 'maaaaaan i cant wait till they cure death and we are all immortal and we all have infinite wealth and […]' and I am just sitting there all like 'god fucking damn I joined here to make my mark on building communism and yet I cant even kick this retard out' but I keep quiet because you are not allowed to kick out people who are

No for real we have people killing themselves because of poverty over here, and these """""""""""""""communists"""""""""""" I've met.
At least sell your drugs or even prostitute your worthless ass, and open a fucking soup kitchen for people who can actually help. If you cant help directly,

this negative publicity must be purged
with extreme prejudice

Serbia is a living hell, who gives a shit?

Yeah Hierarchy is inevitable, leftists are against unjustified hierarchy. Anarchist groups normally have a de-facto leader or leading clique. Socialist vote on their leadership.

Stop being a whiny little bitch and assert yourself, that or stop being a polyp retard trying to slide this board. None of what you wrote addresses my point and you instead go for the route the people you are complaining about go for - defeatism. "I am an incapable little bitch, someone please help me!" - help yourself by doing what you want.

I agree OP. Degenera-cy is an actual thing and it's pretty much a social cancer if we ever want to amount to anything.

calm down autist.

I don't think really consumerism is the problem, or even self interest. You said it yourself, you want communism because it would make your life better. And we're never going to have ethical consumption under capitalism, trying to do so only produces lifestylists, though, certainly there is no need to celebrate consumerism either.

Some ideas that might help your situation

- Encourage a more clear leadership and organizational structure in your org

- Focus in on things that produce concrete results such as electoral politics, dual power (creating local institutions that take care of people better than corporations and governments can)

- Start calling people out, albeit hopefully in a non-bitter way, for their bullshit

Then do it faggot. No one on leftypol can do it for you.

They might be spawn of porky but they still feel the alienation of the capitalist system. They're not entitled losers because of holding leftists beliefs, they're spooked.

IDpol and pacifism has fucked left wing politics so hard. They appeal to emotion and are self-defeating instead of promoting the understanding of political-economic theory about the numerous and perverse methods of exploitation under capitalism.

(Maybe your leftist thing is cointelpro?)

What they need is smart leadership (not dogmatic tanky hierarchy that appeals to base instincts) and a real program of action to provide order/direction, clarity against spooks and inspiration to move forward and take personal responsability in the face of adversity.

There also need to be proper revolutionary conditions. Its when people are against the wall that they are willing to fight with their lives. In the meantime we must build tools of liberation, and spread them. Why don't you talk (or rather listen) to working-class people and what are their immediate needs and think up clever ways to do something about that, bring them some basic theory, organizational tools? If the suburbanites have capital why not use it for anticapitalist means? Invent some method to help and recruit troubled workers? Encourage them to travel and see other places and meet other leftists?

Serbia should have a ton of leftist potential, you were bombed by fucking NATO, lots of Yugo nostalgia… stop fucking whining comrade.

Personally I'm hitting the armchair for a while. When the revolution wants to feed, clothe, and house me, then I'll join. Until then I'm going to work on feeding, clothing, and housing myself and others and starting a revolution that way.

So do we, dearest user, so do we. That's been the state of the left since 1991. The USSR might have been shit, but it kept the left at large still a viable topic. Now we're pariahs.

There's nothing I wish more in life than a visible and clear way to help socialism. Serving in Rojava, or the Naxalites maybe, is the only possibility, but I don't have the mental health and probably the balls neither.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I want a libertarian, democratic socialism as much as most people here, but if Cheka started recruiting tomorrow, I'd be first in line. Dear Lord, I just want to serve the good cause.

And yes, I realize this is just like the whiny people you described.

Yeah well, no. These right wingers here, they have lectures. There was a guy who was an instructor in Gaddafi's army, really old guy, who teaches things related to fighting.
Joining the army is a common recruiting tool, they recruit from the army because everyone at least already has basic training.
I met a guy from Poland, that somehow owns a tank.
I met a guy from Norway, that somehow owns some sort of a custom missile cruiser.
I met even people from North America that are involved with finances with our guys here, probably organized crime since eastern Europe is one of the best places to get guns right now.
They have international business fucking meetings, and they search you head to toe before they let you in.
They have young and old, they talk to one another, they study technical things at universities, all for the cause.

I attended a talk on acquiring medical waste for use in making dirty bombs which would target infrastructure, turning it radioactive and useless for a long time. Or obtaining easy farming licences for stockpiling synthetic fertilizers which contain nitroglycerin that can be used for explosives, or even rocket fuel.

Right wing philosophy somehow attracts and inspires dedication and effort, while discouraging weakness and de-generacy. Hell this fucking board doesnt even let you spell de-generacy.
Leftist philosophy put in practice attracts entitled daddy money, lifestyles, de-generates, irresponsible junkies, undesirables, weak, just overall losers who cant pull of any sort of revolution…

I am starting to get a feeling that maybe the system isnt the problem, maybe you really should just exploit the scum like the scum it is, maybe the masses really are worthless, maybe aristocratic values are better and only fairness in the world is what you make for yourself.
AKA right wing philosophy, that laughs at the concept of philosophy in the first place, and does militarism instead.

I dont even know anything anymore….

Nigga your life sounds cool as fuck what do I need to do to get in on this? All my escapades have at most ended in some dingy fucking gateway of hell.

Before you write this, I just want to say one more thing:
These right wingers I've met, despite their horrific philosophy (of not having philosophy, but just solving everything trough militarism and hierarchies), have computer fucking classes, and mathematics.
They tell you how mathematics makes you a man. How artillery caused 70% of casualties in ww2, and how math is essential to artillery. How computers are essential to aiming things, and how math is essential to computers. How computers can calculate the smell of a molecule, or calculate how explosive it would be, even tho it was never synthesized before.

Meanwhile, the leftist groups I've met do not even search you before you enter the room. If you are fat, they essentially tell you to get fatter.

Have you ever considered that this one right wing militia is financed by big capital?
"somehow owns a tank" yeah sure nigger, no way this guy has strong connections to a military high command and related state capital somewhere, not a chance he just owns it because of his ideology and mental state.

Not that I disagree with your main point though, the "left" is full of unwarranted entitlement.

I'm pretty sure it is just shitty serbia. That place has a terrible political culture. I don't think there are many Western countries with more fascists/nationalists.

Kek. Serbian mafia regularly employed helicopters, to rob a Swiss bank, in Switzerland no less. Look it up.
Our wars? Our ethnic cleansing? Literally self funded paramilitary organized crime mashups carried out 99.9% of all the genocides during the war.
NATO failed to prevent a single massacre, or achieve a single military goal, because JNA ("Yugoslav" "National" "Army") after Tito was basically a false flag front for all kinds of 90s paramilitary chiefdoms around here.

Your knowledge of eastern Europe is wrong.
Organized crime laughs at the government.
Hell governments contract organized crime to run military-industrial affairs.
Putin is a KGB warboss, Ukraine is in an open power struggle of paramilitary chiefdoms, etc etc.

And they are all in practice right wingers without even needing any formal political philosophy.

Said a guy from USA probably, where they got you shouting freedom, from the world's prison state, where NSA and "shadow government" goes around calling all the shots, and living life according to completely different rules. Just like here.

Your killers are simply slightly more polite about it all, but they too start wars, just for the sake of obtaining combat experience and nothing else. You just dont own a passport, and cant see it from the outside, much like Best Koreans. All while shouting freedom no less.

The point remains. The world is ran by right wing principles.
And only communism can change this.

This is easily the biggest problem i see in the US. You'll have liberals screeching at you in no time. In general, even on the left, the flat out unwillingness to join the military is kind of a bad thing, in the sense that little or no leftists spread propaganda in the military or have comparable training to any of the right wing militias. I think this is a really bad thing to have happen. As much as I would hate the army and the government, i've considered joining the military just so i could get the proper training in.

I heard a podcast recently from The Baffler where they had a lefty veteran actually encouraging people to join the military and stuff. It was pretty baffling to hear a self proclaimed leftist telling people they should do that,… everywhere i've read people immediately give you reasons not to.

I think if the army had more "pat tillmans" and less "chris kyles" we might be a lot closer to revolution from that alone.

This is a bread and butter of right wing: joining the army even tho you hate your parliamentary/democratic/de-generate government. This spark, this dedication, this is something left wing doesnt have, and why it will go to shit.

There is something, something that gets shit done in 'might is right/survival of the fittest' and 'entitlement doesnt exist' mentality, but I cant put my finger on it, even tho left wing needs it more than anything in order to build communism.

When right wing militias clash with antifa that doesnt even lift, angry fat chicks, depressed losers, daddy money living in a bubble faggots, various other sheltered lifestylists, right wing will be the only thing left. Get it? I said only right will be left, cos they'll be 100% of all political things and… doesnt matter, forget it, the point is that left wing ideology is incompatible with this discipline, effort, bravery, fitness, etc.

relevant link: huffingtonpost.com/dave-johnson-and-james-boyce/pat-tillman-antiwar-lefti_b_58825.html

no, i don't. if you don't think the left is capable of winning why even bother posting at all? not all leftists are like you describe, i am fit, not a hambeast, and once my body is healed (injured right now been recovering for a few years from a freak weight lifting injury) i'll be learning some martial arts. some antifa groups actively practice muy thai as well.. i mean, there are people out there who are left wingers, and dedicated to the cause and willing to beat some ass. They're just a minority, and often times are shouted down by the people you described.

i don't think its a completely lost cause. i think the problem is getting voices elevated of people who are worth a damn. there are smart IT people that i bet would lean left if the loud liberals weren't always shitting on them for being the 'labor aristocracy' or w/e. this is a common thread on the left.. punch up, ever so slightly, even if the people you're ripping on are supposed to be on your side and are willing to help you.

Basically, i blame a lot of the pussification of the left on sectarianism. Lefties spend far more time criticizing each other over pointless little details than focusing on the bigger picture trying to build each other up in a positive way.

The right does this, they are very good at it. I think the 'idpol' thread we had the otehr day is a great example of this sectarianism.

Well yes exactly, fighting left is a minority because leftists keep shitting themselves into impotency while right wingers take impotent shitters and make them lift and join the army in order to climb the hierarchy

The problem is that right wingers I've met kick their own out for refusing to study mathematics, which they need for studying computers, which they need for making weapons……
Do you even see on what whole new level these people are?

Not even to mention that right is wholly unified. They dont give a shit if you are there because muh guns, or muh culture, or muh god, or muh property, or you just want to kill people.
They make everyone march the same goose step, and all the trains arrive on time no matter what.

Things are so messed up..

Just become Nazbol you faggot


While I don't disagree with your assessment of (western) Leftist groups, I think you're overstating Rightist groups way too much. In the US the only militant Rightist groups are "militias" that are all about muh constitution, and are all FBI infiltrated full of LARPing middle-age men who love guns. While you ignore the Leftist groups throughout the world actually doing something significant and are motivated and disciplined.

Anyway, you think your Rightist group's key to success is their hierarchy, when hierarchy has nothing to do with it. If a group of individuals are genuinely working towards something greater, then they don't need the dream of rising in the hierarchy to work harder. There's nothing anti-Leftist about discipline, motivation, militancy, or high standards. Western Leftism probably attracts defeatist, depressed individuals because those are the type of people to see a problem with the world, and are the type who have experienced a lot of failures. This can be fixed, but only by dedicated, hopeful Leftists creating groups and organizations that actually do something and which have standards for its members to meet. None of this requires hierarchy or other Rightist beliefs.

I've previously talked about this and I was either ignored or mocked. It's hilarious how much leftists are completely ignorant of the far-right's strength, they can't even imagine what will hit them when society collapses if they continue on this careless path. Basically this is what leftists need to do if they want to have a chance to win:

1. Adopt a more personal and idealist worldview: our worldview must be ultimately founded on our personal will to freedom, compassion for the oppressed and hatred for the oppressors not impersonal inherently meaningless concepts like 'historical necessity' or 'class struggle' and we must believe in a better world and fight for it even if the material conditions are against us. Impersonal deterministic economic theories don't provide purpose and motivation.

2. Adopt a sense of urgency that will motivate us to get our act together: realize that the far-right is rising, that it's not a trend that's going away and that when society is near collapsing our main enemy will be the far-right that will seek to replace the old capitalists.

3. Adopt a self-sacrificing/heroic mindset: willingness to defeat your enemy and end oppression by any means necessary and even at the cost of your own life.

4. Organize in vanguards with absolute leadership, chain of command and high standards.

5. Anti-consumerism: you can't trust cowardly hedonists to give their life in the fight for freedom.

6. Military training and stockpiling arms. This should be our immediate main goal so we're prepared when shit hits the fan and the struggle between socialism and barbarism to replace capitalism begins.

7. Not discriminate against bourgeoisie leftists that want to join and help us (like Engels), our goal is to abolish the class system and liberate and unite people from all previous classes not be mere proletarian identitarians. Gotta get that Soro's money.

Collecting lint costs nothing and takes almost no time or effort so there is no compelling reason to stop. I wouldn't call it an addiction because it's not something I feel any need to do. If my belly stopped producing lint tomorrow I might feel surprised but not disappointed.

come join Action Front

u koju organizaciju si otisao?

kladim se cak i da su isti levicari na koje mislim :^)

inace druze, javi mi se na [email protected]/* */ pa da pricamo.

which episode?

this. no revolution has ever happened without significant military defections. And revolution or not, veterans provide an importance perspective and voice to any political movement.

great post, thank you.

yes, a sense of urgency is needed.
And also concrete goals, the left is a great power to thinly spread over to many causes, feminism, gay rights, other idpol of all flavors, they should not be actively opposed, but politely and systematically brushed aside, newer the center of attention. The left is stronger than the right, more virtuous and noble in it's ideals. But we must show this in praxis.
These modern leftist are trying to alter behavior by imposing guilt on the general population, but we need to stop trying to suppress the population with in order to get rid of bad behavior, and start to instead inspire to good behavior. We must live lives of virtue and back up our words with action.
I am not with out guilt, but I will start with personal change, read more, work harder, and get in better shape. It is not to late for us to save the left.

How big is the Serbian Radical Party in reality?

this sounds hilarious. so basically you found a right wing militia who fantasize about 1776 commencing again

you should listen to what a hell of a way to die
it's a lefty podcast of ex-military dudes saying exactly this

serbian, not american right wing. So probably closer to 1488.