There is no solidarity and workers are docile

We live on a planet of 7 billion+ people. The first world disproportionately consumes a ton of resources relative to the third world. Our consumption is not sustainable. Workers in the first world do not want to give up their luxuries so that workers in the third world can be uplifted. Hence why the working class voted for Donald Trump. They want to build the wall to keep poor third world immigrants out. They don't want to share resources with them.

A lot of first worlders struggle to pay for the basic necessities because our "floor" for basic necessities is far higher than the third world. We don't have scrap metal shacks like in Bangladesh. We are seeing an increasing trend of first worlders living more like third worlders. Poor tenants sharing a one bedroom apartment among 4 room mates. Putting up wall dividers. This is a fire hazard. A health code violation. But it's either that or out on the street for you. We are seeing more Tiny Houses. And municipalities are shutting those down because of "violations". The first world needs to live more like the third world just to be able to survive nowadays but the first world won't even allow you to do even that due to regulations. We are seeing people live in their cars. And the authorities are cracking down on that.

In the minds of the average Trump supporter, they fundamentally understand that you can not have a decent first world life and have mass immigration at the same time. This is why even /r9k/ sees socialism as a pipe dream.

There is no global worker solidarity. Workers just wanna get theirs. First world workers do not want to sacrifice whatever comforts they have left in order to accommodate third world workers.

Even within the first world, there is no solidarity. No one gives a fuck about anyone but themselves and maybe their inner social circle. And even then people only care about what their inner social circle can do for them. The only person who will ever care for you is your mom because she's biologically driven to love you (even that is a maybe depending if you have a shit mom or not) and maybe your dad. People just care about their own situation. They don't trust anyone. Not their fellow comrades. Not the anarchists. And certainly not the politicians or the police.

Everyone is a docile cuck who is afraid of losing their jobs. People are uncomfortable but too comfortable to actually fight. And the people who have nothing to lose (ie. lumpens) feel hopeless. They know that they can't enact real change. The number of totally destitute people in society is too small for them to really do anything collectively as a group. The wage cucks who still have something to lose are too docile to join the fight and risk whatever comforts they have left. So the destitute go buy fentanyl-laced heroin on the street or deepweb and waste away. Or they start selling drugs themselves. Or selling their own bodies. Turn to organized crime. Turn to "carding" and cyber-crime. Whatever it takes to survive.

fuck off with your fukuyamaism

fukuyamaism = Francis Fukuyama?
I actually don't know anything about Francis Fukuyama.

What I say is the truth. You talk about agitate, educate, organize in your armchairs. But you don't actually get anything done. And nothing will get done. Because the workers are docile, have no backbone. Humans are naturally tribal creatures. They are not going to want to share resources amongst 7+ billion people. The first world working class is complicit in the first world's exploitation of the third world.


For places like the USA (especially the USA itself) people have been conditioned and artificially selected for docility, compliance, and obedience. Fuck, submission to authority has been selected for by society as long as the establishment has burned heretics.

The project of speciation of workers from rulers is far from complete though. We are dangerously on the cusp of direct genetic engineering to turn workers into human beasts of burden but realistically that endeavor is too thoroughly blocked by chaos to be a more successful strategy than automating workers into obsolescence. I see your point OP but ultimately there's too much variation in the human population and too much capacity for adaptation to circumstance for your argument to hold.

No user, YOU are the counter-revolutionary. The third world doesn't want or need your patronizing orientalism and fetishization of poverty.

No, they want to keep out Mexicans, Arabs, Central Americans, and Africans in particular. Do you see anyone in the US lining up in large numbers to protest Chinese or Indian immigration?

People in the first world can not agree that Maoist Third Worldists have a point? It's like saying that white people can't say that #blacklivesmatter has a point.

I don't identify as a Maoist Third Worldist. I'm more of a defeatist/misanthrope. Throughout most of human history since agriculture (the time where humans were first able to hoard resources), the Post-WWII so-called "Golden Age" was actually an anomaly.

I actually saw a story (discussed on TYT) where a racist white Trump supporter killed an Indian IT worker and told him to go back where he came from, etc.

He probably thought he was a Muslim. Hence my caveat "in large numbers". It would be willfully ignorant to pretend that anti-immigrant rhetoric isn't primarily directed against Arabs, Africans, and people from Central America (who are most of the people actually crossing the Mexican border to live in the US nowadays)

There is a ton of rhetoric about Indian and Chinese H1B Visa workers "taking our jobs"


Fuck off.

How does the rest of the world conduct business in a way that gives the USA no support at all? Ending trade in USD would be a start. What next?

If the workers are not docile, why are they not doing anything? Why are union rates plummeting? Why are workers allowing the bourgeoisie politicians to usher in Quantitative Easing and give handouts to Wall Street while the bourgeoisie don't give them raises to keep up with inflation. Or even cut their pay in some instances!

People who do this are fucking stupid. Most Chinese and Indian immigrants pay more into public services than they use.

With that said, the way liberals and the left in the US treats the immigration question is fucking stupid. The issue is primarily framed in terms of the moral horror of sending people from Mexico or Central America home, implying that it's America's responsibility to rescue them. Meanwhile, we kick out people with socially useful degrees, and even poeple with PhD's, and almost no one bats an eye at this.

Kek, MTWs are First Worldists you retard.

They pay more into public services than they get from the public till. But while an Indian IT worker is providing a valuable service to society, he is still consuming finite resources and contributing to the destruction of the environment and global warming. Is he creating oil out of thin air? Does he not release carbon into the atmosphere? He's not doing any worse than any other first worlderer. The issue is that our first world lifestyle is not sustainable. And when you combine an unsustainable lifestyle with a greater population, that is a recipe for disaster. First world workers do not want to voluntarily lower their standard of living just to accommodate more people. Hence Trump.

Indians and the Chinese have a right to consume the earth's resources just like anyone else. But the truth is that something has to give. Either we have to make sacrifices or the third world does. And most people don't want to scale down their lifestyle to accommodate other people. So the first world working class is going to vote far-right every time during times of crisis.

These are all good points. People make fun of mautists a lot but I've come to some of the same conclusions as OP. The difference is that I embrace the fact that I don't give two shits about workers in the 3rd world. I care about workers in my own country and I realize that others feel this way. My political philosophy is one of pragmatism. I'm more than willing to exploit one's nationalistic feelings if it will bring about my brand of socialism on one country. Maoists are one step away from becoming nazbols/strasserists/(insert unorthodox nationalistic socialism here) just like trots are one step away from becoming neocons. The difference lies in solutions rather than conclusions.


fuck off with this bourgie bullshit

I don't feel a sense of belonging with my nation (my mom was the only person on this planet to care about me and she's dead. If I can't feel a sense of belonging within my own family, why would I feel one with my nation or "the working-class". Especially when I have to put up with the working class calling me a lumpen because I'm a disenfranchised chronically unemployed person who is angry at the world and wants to see it burn).

So my natural inclination based on my conclusions is misanthropy and defeatism.

I don't either. My nationalism is rooted in patriotism towards a political ideal. I'd actually prefer the U.S. to balkanize into smaller neo-straserist states.


It has nothing to do with productive capacity. And everything to do with finite resources. Fossil fuels are a finite resource. We can only burn so much before we run out. The first world releases too much carbon into the atmosphere. More first worlders (ie. third worlders immigrating to the first world) = more carbon released = faster global warming and environmental destruction.

We are going to be forced to downscale our lifestyle no matter what. It is inevitable. And the Trump supporters are a backlash against that. The Bernie Sanders supporters are a backlash against that. Both parties are living in a fantasy land. Trump supporters think that some bourgie is going to make everything better for them. Bernie supporters think you can have comfy social democracy and mass immigration at the same time.

I'm an autistic NEET. I have no one. The only person who ever loved me (mom) is gone. /r9k/ clings onto the far-right because they feel like they have nothing else. But I know that I can't expect anything from the right just like I can't expect anything from the left, "centrists", liberals, etc. Life just sucks and I don't know what to do. I'm probably going to get into carding eventually and become a lumpen criminal. There is no alternative to that beside suicide.

OP is right in his observations, which is why it is up to us here at Holla Forums to develop a response to those observations, to make a critique of what is observed not in words, but in actions, to drive the system towards the brick wall of its own contradictions becoming outright paradox.

This is why we need communization, creation of apps to supersede the functions of the market and state in capitalism, and a form of theoretical thinking based specifically in an analysis of human social institutions from a cybernetic viewpoint (perhaps modifying Stafford Beer's VSM to fit this).

I'm sorry user. :( I'd give you a hug. No homo.

No no no, the OP is wrong! The first worldist neo-con Trots and anarcho-liberals here told me that an Australian unskilled miner on 170k per year who owns 500k house and drives 80k Landcruiser is the same class as a 10 year old textile worker from Bangladesh who lives in a garbage bin! Both have nothing to loose but thier chains!

The unfortunate thing is that I don't know what the solution is. I've made the observation based on my 30+ years of life that no one else is going to fight for me. I have to fight for me. And right now the only way I know how is to work my own hustle (I'm a bitcoin trader). And that is working for now while I live with my dad. But once my dad passes, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to start buying stolen credit cards to get cash in order to get by. It's a dog-eat-dog world. No one cares about me (even my dad only lets me live with him out of feelings of obligation. But he resents me and is embarrassed of me. And he has never given me any positive words or words of encouragement or praise ever in my life.) So I think to myself, "fuck this society?" Why should I feel any moral qualms about stealing from others? When the neurotypicals of this society has told me to go fuck my autistic self ever since I was born. Fuck society. I'm going to get mine because getting theirs is all people ever care about anyways. The lumpen criminals are the only ones who get it. I hope Trump aggravates ISIS, Iran, whatever, into nuking the hell out of us.

How do I get into this user? This might sound like a dumb question but can I get started with 50 dollars or less?

The world is on the cusp of revolution - but not the one that leftists want to see. Instead, we are witnessing the beginning of the next bourgeois revolution, like the one that transformed feudalism, which will transition the most advanced regions of the planet into some kind of post-capitalist society. This is primarily being driven by automation and computerization, making much of the proletariat obsolete, combined with resource scarcity and massive carbon pollution making mass consumer societies untenable. The response will be for the global bourgeoisie and the most essential members of the proletariat to retreat into protected, urbanized areas to enjoy a heavily policed but mostly conflict-free existence. The vast majority of the former proletariat we be condemned to extermination or incarceration, or simply left to die in the decaying, polluted ruins of global capitalist nation-states.

I think the most interesting question is how it will be determined who will be included in this new society, and who will be excluded. Because none of the current ways of segregating humanity seem sufficient for me. Race, gender, religion, etc. are all so dated and unscientific to be used for this purpose. Nationalism is a joke; no one gives a shit about the millions of first-worlders living in abject poverty just because they're "citizens," and today's global bourgeoisie has no borders. Inherited ownership of the means of production also seems a little too quaint and feudal-sounding for the inheritors of the liberal bourgeois order. Perhaps it will be genetic health, or intelligence and education, or some as-yet-unimagined form of caste system. Either way, no one will be safe from being judged. Your American citizenship, your college education, your former white-collar job will not guarantee you a place in the new bourgeois society. Billions will have to be excluded for this to work, and the immiseration and destruction of "first world" mass standards of living will be a key step.

All this sounds dire but what I'm getting at is that the 'docility' of your average worker is predicated on just trying to make it in the existing world, even as it crumbles around us. But the world will change soon, whether we like it or not. All the energy caught up in maintaining the current order will be freed once collapse truly hits, and then you'll see the proletariat's true ability for both tremendous courage, organization, and cooperation. The point of the modern Left is to organize and be ready for this moment, and be capable of mobilizing the proletariat in order to seize the moment of revolution for themselves, in order to preempt the bourgeois hell I described above.

What you're referring to is a political, social, economic and metaphysical rebirth or a major event in which the liberal antithesis won't be communism but some form of hyper capitalistic slavery that is almost unimaginable. With that said I agree with everything you said.

Uphold Marxist-Sankarism and send every Frenchman who leaves his fridge door open while he decides what to eat instead of figuring it out beforehand to the Jarulags.

The more liquidity you have, the better. 50 dollars isn't going to get you very far. I had some savings from previous work while living at home. I'm not sure of the exact number I initially put in. But I have over $25k set aside across a couple bank accounts that I use for trading across multiple exchanges. And I withdraw $5-9k at a time.

Sounds like usury to me, comrade…

Come read our Soviet cybernetics thread. We're working on creating apps which change the very relations between people. It wasn't always a dog-eat-dog world - in many ways, feudalism was better for the average person! What have changed aren't the people themselves or their culture (as a driving factor, that is), but rather their material relations to one another. Marx doesn't talk about oppression or even exploitation as central to his philosophical starting point of why capitalism is unsustainable and incompatible with humanity. No, he talks about alienation. Alienation from the product of one's work. Alienation from fellow men, who we relate to solely via commodities. Other forms of alienation.

The only solution from the standpoint of communization theory is to create self-replicating structures of actually-existing communist (stateless, classless, "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs") relations between people in both social and productive spheres. One way of doing this, for example, is to create cooperatives run by an app which does computerized economic planning and use this to fund a continually expanding, more and more self-sufficient, extended group of people connected only in the free exchange and distribution of communist relations.

We already see this happening on a large scale with the open source software movement (think GNU/Linux). With accessible 3D printing and the sharing of designs, there is now a nascent open source hardware movement. We, what remains of the Old Left, seek to direct these technologies and accelerate their spread via proletarian self-activity to ultimately restore freedom, organic spontaneity, and humanity to the relations of people to each other and the world around themselves. Either we achieve this libertarian communism, the world is destroyed by capitalism and we all die quick deaths in a nuclear inferno, or is correct and humanity collectively suffers a fate worse than extinction.

The owners of bitcoin exchanges are usurers/rent-seekers. The actual traders are more like gamblers. Unless gambling falls under usury. Trading is part gambling, part taking advantage of the ignorance/lack of leverage of others.

The left is dead. It's eat or be eaten.

My profit from trading involves buying bitcoin cheaply from people who either prefer convenience over getting the best price. Or profiting from their ignorance. It also involves selling bitcoin expensively to people who either prefer convenience over low cost. Or profiting from their ignorance.

I don't know if that qualifies as rent-seeking. Bitcoin exchanges get a percentage cut off every trade (and sometimes from deposits/withdrawals usually). They are earning actual passive income. Trading on the other hand involves some work. It's hustling. But because I consistently win most of my trades, that means someone is getting the worst of it.

I'm not sure if GNU/Linux is really a good example of what you have in mind.
Corporations put a shit ton of money on the Linux foundation and they also pay for devs to send code and patches to the project, in fact most of the code today on the Linux kernel was written by paid by corporations devs. So despite it being "communally build" accepting contributions from anyone, in reality Linux as it exists today is totally dependent on porky to exist. If corporation support for Linux ceased today then the project would be slowed to a crawl and things like new hardware and technologies would either not be supported at all or take ages to become supported by the kernel, see the current state of GNU/Hurd for a comparison, even after decades of development you still can't simply put it together with a toolchain and boot it on any computer like you can do with GNU/Linux.

Like I said, fukuyamaism

Hence the need to create structures to make it all truly self-sufficient. If you treat corporations as individuals partaking in the free software movement, then their relations to one another are already communistic. no, the irony of corporations spearheading communization in the search for profit isn't lost on me


Fossil fuels are a source of energy. We are not even remotely running short of available energy. When fossil fuels become scarce we have many other energy sources with which to make up the shortfall.

Again, incorrect. This scenario wrongly assumes that we will continue to rely on fossil fuels for our energy. We have the productive, resource, and technological capacity to switch our energy sources to non-fossil fuel sources. Without fossil fuel combustion we will no longer produce too much carbon dioxide for the biosphere to cycle. We will still have to deal with ~400 GT of excess carbon, but there are a variety of methods by which we could extract that excess from the atmosphere.

Incorrect, we would, by and large, not need to downscale our lifestyle if we achieved communism. There is more than enough, of everything, to go around. This reality is simply obscured by production for exchange.

Irrelevant. When the means become available, people will switch to the communist mode of production. They will not have to be told, and history shows us that they cannot be forced. We need only create the conditions necessary for people to communise society. Even libertarians like Jimbo 'Eat the Rich, Class Wiki Now' Wales have spontaneously created communism under the right conditions. There is nothing stopping the rest of us from doing so.

OK. If you've got access to a computer and an internet connection you can help usher in communism. Don't kill yourself? I'm sorry but I really don't understand the mindset. Don't you want to fix everything that's wrong with the world and live forever?

This poster is one of the few on this board I would be proud to call my comrade. This is the correct mindset.

You joke, but that $170K income obscures the fact that each Australian miner generates on average $200K a year in surplus value for their bosses. Their conditions are different, but that doesn't mean they aren't exploited.

Once again a nazbol chimes in with an opinion that is incorrect. The Left can't die while communism lives, and communism is stronger than it ever has been.

There is no irony here. This is the exact historical pattern that all previous revolutionary societal changes have followed. The ruling class is at the forefront of developments in production, and developments in production always contribute to the destruction of the ruling class' position. Kings invested in the joint-stock companies that superseded them and hunter-gatherers built the granaries that their kings denied them access to.

It is a well-established historical pattern that has been obscured by the politically obsessed, superstructure-focussed, fundamentally Blanquist Left. Communisation theory was the first attempt at recovering Marx's understanding of this pattern, and we're achieving the fullest expression of it with the notion of cyber-communism.

INSHALLAH BROTHER!! i will fight with you!!

It is impossible for the first world to downscale their carbon footprint without a sacrifice in lifestyle. Even poor Americans eat meat and animal by-products (unless they are vegan). And farm animals release a ton of CO2 into the atmosphere before their eventual slaughter. Do you think that first worlders want to give up meat, eggs, etc. to accommodate their third-world comrades? Yea no…

We also use lots of water (California is in crisis), lots of electricity.

Workers only give a shit about their own situation and maybe that of their family and inner circle. And even things aren't going right for themselves, they have a sort of "learned helplessness". "The price of everything is going up but I'm getting paid the same. What can you do? Rebel? Start a union? Quit my job? I guess I'm not just smart enough to be a winner in life like those almighty job creators and it's my fault."

While I hate leftcoms and egoists, you could combine them and they still wouldn't be as god awful as turd worldists.

Excellent post. The right balance of realism and hope. Pessimism of the intellect optimism of the will.

Do you mean the condition are better? I'm pretty sure the Communist movement is just beginning to recover from a moment of historic weakness.

I don't know who's been feeding you bullshit, but CO2 production from farm animals is totally irrelevant to the problem of climate change. All biomass contributes to the natural carbon cycle. Plants fix carbon dioxide from the atmosphere into their structure and energy reserves. Animals eat that carbon, metabolise it, and exhale the remainder of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, which is then fixed by the next generation of plants.

Excess CO2 is solely a problem of fossil fuel combustion, which liberates carbon that had been sequestered underground.

So? The water hasn't disappeared, it's just no longer in the aquifers you drained. Your whole state sits right next to the fucking Pacific Ocean, the only thing separating you and as much water as you could possibly want is some electricity.

Electricity isn't limited, except by the ass-backward institution of production for exchange. Sunny California is near-constantly bombarded with potential electricity from a gigantic fusion reactor in the sky, don't come crying to me about 'no electricity'.

Prices are a spook at this point. What matters is productivity. Those workers can produce enough for everyone to live like kings, they are simply limited by the shitty legacy institution of the market. We need to create the infrastructure for an economic system capable of handling all of the wealth we have.

Communism isn't about bringing first worlders down to third world status. That's a pernicious lie peddled by porky and his Maoist compradors. Communism is about effectively utilising the wealth we have created for ourselves.

That post was the single worst one in the thread. It was just boilerplate pseudo-marxist 'muh final crisis of capitalism' millenarianism wrapped up in a thick layer of pessimism. It offers no praxis, and yet people eat that shit up and call leftcoms armchair jockeys. Communisation theory presents much more effective praxis than the bullshit that idiot was spouting.

I mean that the communist mode of production exists now when it never had before.

A few irrelevant brutal social-democratic dictatorial regimes collapsed last century, and a couple more shed their social-democratic clothing in favour of naked neoliberalism, but none of that had anything to do with the real movement that abolishes the present state of things.

The only 'moment of historic weakness' we are recovering from is the utterly misguided idea that communism can be achieved through Blanquist coups and ruthlessly efficient state–directed capitalism.