Am I right in thinking that Third Worldism is Idealist garbage incompatible with materialist socialism?

Well his counter-argument would be since Marxists do not have the ability to "do revolution" First Worldism actually ends up encouraging inaction since the first world Marxists are completely divorced from the masses. He would probably say that he doesn't advocate doing nothing only resisting within the confines of what's politically possible within the First World and beneficial for building revolution in the global south (which will in turn make the First World revolutionary).

I don't agree with all that but its persuasive according to its own logic and not necessarily pro-inaction.

You can just say you're a MTW if you're an MTW, it's not like someone's going to kill you over the computer with mind bullets.

Yes, but the US actually did provoke 9/11.

I'm really not. I used to believe in it and read all the theory but now I don't, I changed my position. Jason should consider doing the same instead of doubling down imo

Yes, but the joke is that MTWs would argue that even the janitors deserved to die because they're apart of the Labor Aristocracy.

What changed your mind user? If you don't mind me asking.

Also, full disclosure, I used to be a Maoist too, but I never swallowed the MTW pill, although I did used to like Sakai's Settlers.

Also, what convinced me otherwise was actually reading Marx, particularly Das Kapital, the more I read the more I started to realize how grave the failures of the USSR and China were, and while I still respect them for what they tried, as well as what they did undoubtedly achieve, I also understood it was important to realize that at the end of the day they were failures and that it's our job to figure out why it happened and how to do better in the future. Aside from that I just realized that all MLs, Trots, and Maoists are more or less operating on a desire to recapture a historical moment that's already past, a thoroughly un-Marxist and un-Leninist way of viewing theory and praxis, we need new theories, new modes of organization, based on the material conditions we find ourselves in today, not LARPers who want to roleplay the Russian Revolution. I still think MLs and MLMs still have some good ideas, and can be effective in a limited way (Kerala, Naxalites, the NPA), but I honestly don't view them too differently then SocDems and Post-Keynesians at this point, they can be useful allies, but they aren't the future. I still like a lot of MLs and MLMs tho.

In a way, you could say I got so deep into it that it quit making much sense. For instance, I read Bromma's book The Worker Elite: Notes on the "Labour Aristocracy" and in it he argues that the labor aristocracy exists even in Third World countries like Zimbabwe etc. in addition to new and rising imperialist powers like China, Brazil, Worst Korea etc.

It didn't make a lot of sense but it was a sustainable conclusion only if you conclude that the "First Worldist" economists were right about greater purchasing power in the global south, lower historical living standards and expectations setting the standard of payment there, lower productivity in certain spheres and places etc.

Although I knew the reality was bad living in a very poor state myself I was surprised by the paper showing that mortality among the white working class had increased significantly. I thought to myself that that had only been seen in a peacetime developed nation during the collapse of the Soviet Union, so as a Marxist materialist the wheels in your head start turning–class relations determine everything so something has to be going on in the realm of class and class exploitation to explain how that can happen. Around the time I left college I went through a lengthy period of unemployment and that shook any illusions I may have had the bourgeoisie is interested in keeping the workers fat and happy to prevent revolt via class compromise. It's tough to get anything from Uncle Sam unless your arm falls off or something, eventually I got a job but it wasn't enough to really live on.

So being brutally honest the personal and the theoretical revelations came together around the same time. All the idpol garbage spewed out by redditors and folks on leftbook groups really got to me, there was a lot of bourgeois nationalism, I really liked Holla Forums bc you could speak your mind and I had been a channer longer before I got interested in leftist politics.

I think I was looking for something to explain why OWS failed, and why even seemingly more radical groups like BLM turned into complete shitshows. It seemed to make sense, most people didn't want to fight imperialism, most of the people I knew from my brief involvement with Occupy were rad libs. Occupy in NYC had a group called "Class War Camp" that supported the US bombing in Libya and wanted further intervention in Syria. I thought well if this is the Left then we're pretty screwed. I don't think I was wrong either the fact that the whole thing failed soured the mood across the country set leftists back for years though they rarely admitted it. And people were there asking them what their demands were and what they wanted from the beginning, most of them couldn't even answer the question they simply fetishized the decentralized method of crowd management that Curtis brilliantly critiqued. Normal people got frustrated and went home; autists like me tried to stick around hoping for a turn around that never came. It was a damn good opportunity that was largely wasted, I think I became a socialist because I remembered the socialists who came to OWS seemed to have things more together. Whereas OWS was influenced by anarchist theory, I was initially an anarchist going in but afterwards I thought "well if this is anarchism, screw anarchism"

*to clarify as dumb as it sounds after OWS Third Worldism just made a ridiculous amount of sense on an intuitive level but intuitive=/=right etc.

Yeah, I also Have a copy of Bromma's The Worker Elite, and after a certain point their idea of a hyper-Labor Aristocracy almost only makes sense if there's some kind of conscious secret conspiracy taking place on the part of Labor Aristocrats in order to consciously classcuck the Global South, and there's just no situation where that's consistent with reality.

100% same tbh user.

I think this is why most people turn to Maoist, when the Proletariat doesn't revolt, when organizing for Leftist causes seems like a Sisyphean task with no foreseeable end, the critique of the Western Proletariat put forth by MTW is pretty alluring. Anyway, you seem pretty Based, and I don't think anything you thought or did was irrational, it makes perfect sense, and now here you are on Holla Forums where shit finally actually kind of makes sense.

Thanks fam. Are you US-based? Are you in any parties or work with any interesting groups? I know that sounds suspicious but I'm just interested in the experiences of fellow comrades. I've been thinking over how to best aid the cause even if it's making shitty YouTube content.

I suppose I should do something like join a Union or push for one where I work. But I really don't want to lose my job and my coworkers don't seem very class conscious so I don't know how to approach that. Right now I sorta leave hints cause I was fired from my last job for suggesting to a coworker that we start a Union and collectively bargain at a temp job I was at.

Daily reminder Roo is NOT a real Third Worldist.

Third Worldism = NazBol + Primitivism
youtube.com/watch?v=BN7FpwAa-Ls

fuck off k1ke

There is a lot of truth to this, I don't know why it's so hard for some people on Holla Forums to accept. The reality of the situation is right in front of us.

Reminder that when Lenin talks about the aristocracy of labour he's pretty clearly referring to trade union bureaucrats and social democratic politicians whose direct material interests end up contradicting those of the workers they are tasked to represent.

Reminder that you third worldist faggots totally misinterpreted the phrase and then ran with it as a way to justify shitting on everyone else and to rationalise your own failure to organise.

Reminder that none of your precious third world revolutions have produced anything more than particularly brutal forms of autocratic capitalism.

twitter.com/MaoistRebelNews/status/860483251055583233

Why does he post this shit?

Third worldists literally consider any westerner at all members of the bourgeosie

Wait just think about it though, do you still believe that the LTV is correct or not?

If it is correct, then from where does value in the world originate? The only logical answer is the labour of the third world, who are relentlessly being exploited. Now the proles in the first world for the large part live in social democracies, and have service/financial economies which all rely on the subjugation of the third world through imperialism/stealing of resources etc to maintain their standard of living. The vast majority of first world proles may not actively support this but they accept it as a fact of life and don't balk at the benefits it brings them. And so they are also implicitly responsible.

She's correct though: white people shouldn't be making theory for third worlders unless white people have knowledge of these people's traditions.

this tbh fam
Pannekoek also explains this in his criticism of trade unionism

there is still a net exploitation of first world workers, our higher living standard is not just because of third world exploitation, it's also because of the development of productive forces (since we were the first to suffer under capitalism)

Oh of course, I just meant that today that's not really the case anymore, the manufacturing sector of almost all OECD countries is

Yes, I'm in the U.S., did campus organizing, dealt with a lot of Sparts, contemplated joining PSL but never took the plunge, now I'm a little rudderless, I'm a Unionized worker, but my Union is pretty Liberal, I am thinking of joining the DSA tho.

I don't entirely disagree with your point, but that doesn't mean there isn't a Proletariat in the Global North, a majority of the world's manufacturing here is done by automation or unpaid prison labor (slavery in [current century]) but it's not like the Western Proletariat are a giant mass of well-to-do petit-bourgeoise middle managers and skilled laborers.

The Third World employs wage labor more then anywhere else, but the First World does still manufacture more fam.

HAHA, WHAT A LOSER

In fact you don't really see the likes of Uhnroo™ joining the YPG, do you?