Would any mutualists, left-libertarians, and other market socialists (including Titoists, Ricardian socialists...

Would left-wing market anarchists be welcome? A lot of anarchists tend hear the word market and think instantly think ancap.

I live on the border of Mass/NH. I really never noticed an increase in ancaps up there.

neither of them have any natural resources to keep them afloat in the capitalist modernity, and the US govt wouldn't allow it

Yes. That's the goal.

It's not utopian, it's that the climate of NH provides us marketfags with a better opportunity to act and get our goods.

NH and VT have a shitload of farmland, virgin forest, granite, fresh water, etc. We have all we need to survive.

okay so you'll destroy your forests, and create dozens of mine to export a mostly useless rock so you can collectivize your farms. What happens when the govt lowers prices on farm products and you can't afford imports?

The farms already exist, dipshit. And NH and VT both have tiny populations. Vermont has less than a million people and NH's population is actually decreasing due to tons of young people leaving.

Source: I grew up in Nashua and currently live in a suburb of Boston.

Honest question. How many right-libertarians actually live in NH as part of the FSP thus far? Their website says they only have a little over 2000 of their guys in the state despite the move having been announced a year and a half ago.

There's no need to destroy the forests or deplete the land of its natural resources. We can build cooperative farms up in the northern part of the state which run on renewable energy like solar panels. Deforestation has massive environmental effects which include fucking up the soil and water, so of course we'll find a way to live harmoniously with nature instead of creating a lifestyle around raping it to pieces.

is correct. NH's population is quite small and the chances of the state becoming over-populated (like, say, Rhodes Island or New Jersey) are highly slim. A lot of people in the southern part commute to Boston but primarily spend their wages in NH (since everything is tax free and food is much cheaper since a large amount of it is locally grown and produced).

Free Staters are small in number but big in action. Hopefully we can be bigger in numbers and in action.

Also why do you feel the need to go to NH to build capitalism? We've already got one right here, and it works as well as it ever will.

ALSO, how do you plan on competing with the capitalist market without adopting the exact same behaviours that every other capitalist has to?

Also also, how are you guys not just ancaps with less(?) kiddy-fucking?

ah good ole Trashua. I grew up in the town just south of it.

I really wouldn't be so sure, unless you consider snek bumper stickers and Gary Johnson lawn signs big action. Remember that New Hampshire voted for HIllary and elected a Democrat to the senate this passed election

Where? Tyngsboro?

yea, though I don't live there anymore, close by though

"Snek"?

The Gadsden flag.

I see.

I've also seen a black and gold flag in Manchester once, specifically in West Manch were all the FSPers live.

Honest question, do you know what utopian means?

psst: timber is a renewable resource

that's where they are? No wonder that city is a shithole.

I mean I see people in south NH with the gasden flag bumper sticks and shit, but actually the amount of them I see is pretty equal with what I see here in Mass too. So it doesn't seem like they are more concentrated in NH

Ever been to Salem? At this point, the Latinos and Lebanese there are more right-wing than the whites. (My gf grew up there so I go there quite often to visit her parents.)

Right-wingers tend to be concentrated in a few cities: Salem, Derry, and the porky towns like Bedford.

I'm assuming you mean Salem NH, not Mass, and yea, I used to work at Canobie Lake Park so I was there quite a bit. I didn't know that about the latinos and lebanese though. I can see what you mean by Derry, I fucking hate that town.

I'm sorry.

Southern NH in general sucks. Nashua and some parts of Manch are all right because you still have pockets of working class Latinos and whites who still hold on to that proletarian mindset. Salem, Derry, and the suburbs can choke on a million dicks.

lol it was a three month gig for extra pocket cash doing security. Actually not bad when you consider I get to yell at drunk rednecks and dipshit kids.

Yea that's true. I shit on Nashua but its not bad. I mean the thing to consider is NH when heavily to Bernie during the primary, so it indicates people there are open to at a minimum left-leaning ideas.

What's your thought on the north, like White Mountains area. I'm up there a lot during the summer as we have a camper up there, and people seem a lot nicer than the more porky parts of Southern NH.

Up north is pretty nice. I used to go to Franconia Notch every so often.

Yeah, it's when you set up a model for how your ideal society is supposed to run, instead of considering the real material conditions of society and the way that modes of production actually function.

An example of utopianism would be deciding that commodity production and market exchange can be fixed if we cut the bits we don't like out of them without considering how those bits integrate into the whole mode of production, and then going off to set up a commune surrounded entirely by and inextricably integrated into the dominant mode of production with the hope that the model your commune exemplifies will spread into society instead of the dominant mode of production spreading into your commune.

I'm thinking a good place to set up a cooperative project would be Milford, or anywhere between Nashua and Keene since there appears to be a lot of forest and water there but still close to civilization.

Perhaps, although Free Staters brag A LOT about their so-called "accomplishments" like repealing regulations, getting rid of knife laws, liberalizing gun laws, liberalizing laws against public nudity, and all that. They also boast how Keene is the "northern capital of libertarianism" or some shit (makes you wonder why Lew Rockwell doesn't just move the Mises Institute to Keene State instead of Auburn U).

Milford is boring as shit. Go to Manch and set up there.

Grow up already.

Milford's a nice town, it'd be a good place to set up.

Every form of socialism is utopian. Even David Graeber has said true communism has never really existed and all cultures have hierarchies and classes. All we can do at this point is live our values right now in the present moment to the best of our abilities and hope that our efforts will make a splash somewhere else. I'd rather be building cooperatives right now than waiting around for the vanguard party/union/underground organization/riot/general strike.

Hi Rothbard.

Would it be worth it to do an outreach to ancaps and try and get them into real market anarchism? As a recent ex-ancap I can attest to most of them having never read outside of ancap literature and not knowing anything about individualist anarchism/mutualism.

I love Holla Forums.

Are you against workers voluntarily setting coops?

This should be done I think. The left can this way use both intelligentsia and activism at the same time. Propaganda of the deed.

idk seems like twitter/chan/reddit ancaps tend to be hoppe dicksucking, le hellicopterz reactionaries. heavily spooked and probably their boog background + autism draws them to ancapism over straight fascism. there might be a few halfway reasonable ones if you wade through enough trash. some c4ss staffer on my timeline claims to have re-educated a bunch

Noooo please come start it in Maine. Portland already has a bunch of coops! Please help us! People here hate how out of state corporations are hammering Portland and pushing out coops, we are fighting back but we need help!

And after that turn it into ancomism

I would need a green card for that.

New Hampshire and Vermont have more coops than Maine.

Is there a running register that can be believed to be accurate? There's three coops near my apartment, a few more on the other side of town. More upstate.

Where do you live? Lewiston?

Portland.

That explains it.

Come to Burlington, VT and you'll see a coop on every corner. The largest grocery store in the city proper is a coop.

I'd join in an instant if the state was Vermont instead of NH.

Proudhon didn't want to revive the guild system, that's a vulgar myth.

Are there are lot of ancaps there now? I used to watch Christopher Cantwell back when I was an ancap. I remember him distinctly saying that the Free State Project has a lot more left-libertarians than right ones and he was encouraging his audience to move out to NH to get the ancap numbers up.

It depends on the person. If they are knee-deep in memes about anti-communism, they won't want to hear a word about socialism. If they just hate the government then an outreach might be worth it.

Depends on what you mean by "left libertarian".

If you mean someone who hates bosses and loves worker control, you'll find very few.

If you mean someone who hates the state but loves weed and muh intersectional feminism, you'll find quite a lot.

If you want to do that, it's your right. Do you want to ban interest on loans or the employer-employee relationship?
market socialists get props for being less retarded than marxists, but that's not saying much.

...

NH doesn't have income tax.

It's limited at 5%

Don't be silly. we want to make them obsolete, so people stop doing it voluntarily. Taking loans is generally a dumb idea though.

Moneylending exists for a reason. Sometimes it's better to spend a bit more money, but space the cost out over a longer period of time.

New Hampshirite here
You'll have better luck in Vermont, the elderly Republican vote here is ridiculously strong

VT would be an easier target for sure, but there isn't jack shit to do in VT and its way the fuck out there. At least with NH your not that far from civilization.

Though I'd vote for VT because of the beer alone

I think I've talked to you before on here. Maybe not, but whoever it was, they were saying Portland is having issues as of late. Breaks my heart because its such a cool city.

I was going to help you and hook you up with a great mutualist here until I got to the part about expropriating factories. That's some commie shit right there, not mutualism. If you start stealing, you're liable to get shot. Thieves need to be put down. I'm so glad Commies have no ambition, no agency, and cannot move across states, let alone out of their mother's house.

Expropriation is a necessary action.

do you think people can just own factories in mutualism? the point is to abolish wage labor you dumb tit

bump

This.

Bedford, Windham, Londonderry, Merrickmack, and Amherst = the first to go during northern New England's revolutionary terror.

Non-American here can someone give me an idea of the difference between New Hampshire and Vermont?

Its seems like Vermont is more rural from what I've read.

Ehhh can't we just buy some land out in the PNW. It's way better.

They're right next to eachother, and I just moved to this area from the south so let me give you what I've observed.
Vermont is left libertarian, it's senator is Bernie Sanders and I was shocked at how openly leftist people here are. I went to a book store and bought the communist manifesto and the owner and the guy who he rang up before me started talking about how communism is a great idea and people are too uneducated about what it really is. It's full of small, friendly communities where people help eachother, most of which have virtually no police presence and still crazy low crime rates. It's shocking to see as someone who was raised in the south, where socialism is synonymous with fascism. Vermont is what convinced me anarchism works.
New Hampshire is right libertarian. It's the chosen destination of the free state project for a reason. It was the only state Ron Paul won when he tried to get the Republican nominee in 2012. Ron Paul is, if you didn't know, an actual anarcho-capitalist. It's where you go if you're a libertarian.
In summary, they're both libertarian states, but Vermont is so in a hippie 'no gods no Masters' sort of way and New Hampshire in a 'am I being detained?' buying tanks of of TOR sort og wah

I have just been reading about vermount and its seems really chill and like my ideal place,
>Not that densely populated,(when compare to new york or a state like California.) Which helps with anxiety tbh

I don't think I will be able to move there anytime soon due to university, but I will probs set up a co-op where I live.

But I wish you U.S. comrade all the best and made some OC (Sorry for shitty res and crop, made it in five minutes)

literally nobody there to stop you

...

I'm a Not Socialist who thinks that the market could work if it's all whites, does that count
:^)

Graeber views communism not as an utopian "final state of being", but as a way to interact with one other. For example he sees communist behaviour (mutual aid, and acting from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs) as necessary for every capitalist workplace

Well shit, that's about the most reasonable, non-utopian and non-millenarian thing I've heard said on the Left in a dog's age.

Graeber's great. More people need to read him

...

What?

I'm saying that calling office politics in a capitalist hierarchical enterprise "communistic" is beyond retarded.

I didn't interpret that statement as being about feelings, I saw it as pointing out that communist behaviours are a very common emergent behaviour within human social-productive systems. If local material conditions can give rise to spontaneous communist social organisation, then it stands to reason that the material conditions of society can be modified to produce the same result on a society-wide level.

Why? If you're not some retard who thinks 'communism' is a monolithic concept that must apply across the entire earth to be called communist, then you have to admit that there must be some 'minimum scale' over which communist social relations can apply. We know that communism can operate on the scale of a single tribe, why is it retarded to suggest that it operates between the workers inside of an enterprise? In any case, what makes you think communistic relations would be entirely free of hierarchy? Even primitive tribes had shamans, elders, and 'big men'.

Even the most alienating office department requires some degree of cooperation to function user.

You would feel more comfortable in states like Vermont and NH, which have very low minority populations.

But overall no not really. How come a market doesn't work with minorities, and yet magically works when you get rid of them?

no thanks

dafuq?

Bump
Seriously move on this, I've thought about this before and it seems like a thing that would work, be in our collective self-interest and at the same time countering a potential proprietarian hotbed and overturning some spooked, otherwise-comrades.

Just let me get a green card first and then I'll be over. I'm serious. I absolutely would move from my shithole to NH if some of you (it doesn't need to be more than three of you in the start) get this going.

What you need is:
1. Some ideas for co-operatives (can be any)
2. Integrating it into one (or more) of your anarcho-syndicalist federations.
3. Make it public as an actual 'happening' so that people can know and come over and join in

I'm thinking we should all move to a specific town first, one where we can actually make a mark if we set up. So far, I'm thinking about Milford or Nashua (Nashua has 90,000 people but a large percent are working class immigrants from Brazil, India, Ecuador, etc.).

The phrase is "cannot move across their mother's house, let alone states". You put the easier feat first