How do we break people of the "non-violence" meme?

Non violence works best when there's a scary violent person behind you.

You [SocDem] want better working conditions? Suck my coc–[Soviet Commissar glowers over the wall.]–Sure, my comrade! Hahaha we've all got to work together to stop the commies haha for the good of the nation–s-sure the government can regulate capital flows too–j-just stop the commies haha. [Soviet Commissar is now Russian homeless man] You want a raise? Try unemployment I'm off to China. Hahaha.

NO it isn't. Commuters aren't oppressing you. Corporate and state power is. Try blocking their traffic. Oh right you won't because you might actually get hurt. Fucking anarkiddies.

Blocking traffic impedes the flow of business. The commuters you reference cannot get to work on time, so their employers are robbed of their labor force. Blocking traffic slows the movement of shipping trucks, bringing products the shelves of porky's establishments. Blocking traffic blocks consumers from going to a retail store and giving their dead labor to porky.

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You are an incredible breed of fucking retard.

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Fact remains you aren't actually fighting capitalism. You are just LARPing.

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Beats doing nothing.
(I should note that I'm not an anarchist, though.)

I'm not saying it's a good idea, I'm saying those are barely valid criticisms.
"You'll get skullfucked by police rescue tanks" is much more interesting. (Though perhaps there's something to be said for provoking the state to violence… or maybe that's just my desire for more entertaining television.)

yeah pretty much, the USian civil rights movement was only able to use nonviolence as a tactic because there were a bunch of scary black men with scary rifles were ready to use them in self-defence. armed self-defence is not incompatible with nonviolent offence

amazon.com/Will-Shoot-Back-Resistance-Mississippi/dp/0814725244
amazon.com/This-Nonviolent-Stuffll-Get-Killed/dp/0465033105
amazon.com/Negroes-Guns-Robert-F-Williams/dp/1614274118/

living in a homeless shelter fucking sucks and having been a homeless person in shelters i can assure you that the people who work there to enforce bullshit rules are awful too.

homeless people don't need to get "service[d]", they need actual real fucking houses or actual for-realsies apartments with doors and locks on the doors.

fuck this well-meaning paternalistic bullshit

Given how many on the Left are prone to a shallow understanding of left-wing theory and to act on impulse regardless of consequences, I think the "non-violence" meme is a great narrative protecting us from a scenario where a bunch of left-wing kids will commit random acts of violent acts and ruin it for the rest of us.

Because I'm afraid of leftists not recognizing the necessity of violence in a moment of revolutionary change, but I'm terrified of leftists thinking that every time they punch someone it's a step towards le revolution.

So IMO just make it clear that non-violence is strategic. It's a means to stop the state from justifying violence and repressiong against us and to not alienate public opinion. People who disagree with that, either because they think non-violence is a matter of principle or because they think violence is justifiable no matter what, should not be allowed to be part of our groups.

Unless you're ready to go there and build/pay those for them, don't bother people working within limited means to help, you retard.

you're gonna look like chris christie when he closed a bridge

Let the "non violent" hippies be killed by jack booted policemen and brainless soldiers.
If people realize their petitions, protests, televised pleads are useless and their "representatives" in government don't give a shit about them, then maybe the gun nuts might have the backbone to fight back.
Focus on them, not the spineless masses.

i'm not american so i don't get the reference

villains, we can live with, willing victims, those tear us apart

how about getting your stupid USian government to build actual proper social housing? is that not a thing in America?

Why do you fucking Americans insist on directing shittons of tax money to awful nonprofits so they can operate awful "shelters" for homeless people instead of actually properly building enough housing for people?

There are fucking 6 empty homes to every 1 homeless person in this country, you fucking classcuck.

On the day of the revolution I'm going to shoot you in the back.

same

Get Zizek'd: youtube.com/watch?v=hpAMbpQ8J7g

i never understood why the US is so fine with not building enough housing (yay zoning laws) in areas with lots of demand (like the bay area or w/e) to let supply-and-demand reduce prices enough, or not building enough public housing.

the fuck is this weird USian obsession with ~*~increasing home worth~*~ or whatever (that of COURSE leads to strong restrictions on supply)??

US government believes that high home ownership rates discourage striking and labor activism. Thus they do everything in their power to make home ownership an attractive option for American citizens.

It's about the UK, but it's a good article:
wosland.podgamer.com/we-arent-the-99/

tl;dr when your income is stagnant and your economy a joke seeing your house prices skyrocket and (in turn) a housing boom fuel the economy feels good man.
plus the general trend towards buildings as a store of wealth, and in the UK, the de-facto end of social housing + state subsidizing private renters leading to buying houses just to rent them out.

How about you do that and let the people who are trying to help minimize the damage of the system in any way they can do their job? You don't have to be a pain in the ass for them in order to make political demands.

Show figures that indicate charities are in any fucking way getting in the way of fixing capitalism's retarded housing system

Until you're done fixing that, let the people who are nearly starving get some food and a place to sleep you, will you?

You can continue to play le cold revolutionary who has no time for palliative measures in online boards and Facebook and talk about pigs and gulags, but don't bother people who actually do something.

Always with the le gulags, le shooting, le revolution, le mass murders. Fetishizing violence and fantasizing about the day you'll be allowed to act it won't make your life any less miserable, my deranged tweenie friends.

And in turn, prolonging it.
Watch the video.
Maybe if you didn't waste your time on a half measure and directed your enemies towards treating the disease instead of the symptom, they'd have both.

Fucking liberals.

as a person who's been homeless multiple times (and is only not currently homeless because i'm renting from someone who technically is violating zoning laws) i do not appreciate the nonprofit / charity fuckos being awful to homeless people in the name of "minimising the damage of the system"

like, i've *been* in homeless shelters and shit and i've *seen* the damage that they cause, and i don't appreciate this nonsense being carried out in my name

The whole point of getting people to buy individual, private houses was that workers who bought houses would get into mountains of debt and would, therefore, be less likely to go on strike (and it helps banks make a bundle on those sweet high-interest mortgage payments). Create a culture where young adults buying their own homes (and thus not simply inheriting the homes of their parents) is seen as a sign of maturity and independence, thus perpetuating the cycle of debt.

Basically, houses costing so much is the whole point.

The whole point of getting people to rent is that workers who rent are more likely to go on strike, so whenever you see a landlord, know that he is a KGB agent bringing communism.

god this is awful. i hate this stupid "limit supply of housing" nonsense, i hate these fuckin zoning laws that restrict house density and restrict how many people can live in a given house or restrict house height to keep housing price up hella high.

why dont people who catch the vapours from the suffering of us homeless actually strike closer to the root cause of this by like, ending the zoning laws that restrict the supply of ultracheap housing? slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/07/sros_flophouses_microapartments_smart_cities_are_finally_allowing_the_right.html

my argument isnt "you must end capitalism entirely and can't do any sort of palliative measure at all", it's that there's lots of palliative measures that can be done that actually significantly improve the situation and that directing funds at awful "nonprofits" to operate homeless shelters (staying at a shelter SUCKS. A LOT. the staff are AWFUL to you and your shit gets stolen ALL THE TIME) is not a good palliative measure, while relegalising forms of housing that used to let the people who are now homeless have a roof over their head would be an excellent thing to do

Accelerationism has a history of literally never working, so excuse me if I'm not ready to cease any charitable work based on some teenager's expectation of how people react under which circumstances.

And something tells me that the people living in homeless shelters are not thanking capitalism everyday and are definitely not happy with their circumstances, so they don't need more misery in their lives just because you think this is what will turn them into hardened revolutionaries, dipshit.

The chances that you don't even understand the economics behind the housing crisis and you have no serious alternative to propose in anything, from praxis to the system itself, are huge, so I'd love you to explain in real life, daily terms what it would look like to direct people against their "enemies" and how charity gets in the way of that. And I mean, propose something that can be acted upon, not just broad outlines like "organize workers!" or whatever.

I'm definitely more into do-something, well-meaning-but-ultimately-useless liberals than "leftists" of your kind, who are generally considered a hinderance in any sort of serious movement out there.

For you, the point of attacking charity is not even because you genuinely believe it's an strategic obstacle to the revolution or to class-consciousness, it's just because you have no theory, you have no praxis and you have no plans, so to replace the "liberal mindset" with the "leftist mindset" and perceive politics as a question of attacking mainstream sensibilities and discourse becomes an end in itself.

The only thing you have is the shock value you perceive your discourse having when you talk about how welfare and charity are shit, how you're going to kill everyone when the revolution comes and how Stalin killed few people, etc. It's the left-wing version of the mid-00's edgy teenager who rolls his eyes whenever someone mentions God and who became a libertarian because it gives him a chance to say something edgy in family meetings.

lmao this is like the Youtube commenters going "as a black man, I hate political correctness and wish white people could call me nigger" in every single alt-Right videos. Walk into the ocean you retard.

how is objecting to the awfulness of homeless shelters equivalent to "wish[ing] white people would call me nigger"??? this makes zero sense.

Giving a shit about homeless shelters when there is a 6:1 empty homes to homeless people ratio, is insane. You are getting mad at working class people impeding business instead of getting mad at the capitalist class who own the businesses for causing homelessness to exist.

I've already addressed this stupid point above. Prove that homeless shelters and charity are happening in lieu of serious structural reformation or shut the fuck up.

you're just mad because you've made your identity based on helping ~*~unfortunates~*~ with your nonprofit nonsense and then an actual person who was homeless is telling you that you're full of shit. very sad.

You're talking to a fucking social democrat.

I'm glad my short reply got this wall of text. Drink fucking petrol.

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I'd rather base my identity on helping "~"^^" unfortunates ~"~"^^" than on telling them that they need to experience "proper misery" before they become radicals like me, despite the fact that I've become a radical living in comfortable middle-class surroundings my entire life, as you people did.

I'm glad you're not trying to respond at all. Go read Marx and spare society of your world-shattering radical statements until you're done.

homeless shelters treat homelessness as a temporary problem that can be solved with temporary assistance.
they dont provide 24-hour operation (there's curfews and shit, the shelter i was at would "put you out" (aka deny you access and kick you out on the street) if you were a minute later after the evening curfew), privacy, or secure space to store personal belongings—hallmarks of freedom that chronically homeless individuals need and want
also shelters and parasitic nonprofits suck up money that could be used for permanent public housing and also give people an impression that homelessness is something to be solved with ~*~shelters~*~ and not something that is a symptom of removing cheap housing and removing social housing.

Nobody has said this.
You're a better projector than the Epson EH-TW5300.

I'll repeat: Prove that homeless shelters and charity are happening in lieu of serious structural reformation or shut the fuck up.

Write that one down so you can use it again in the future

I'll do it up you upload a webm of you drinking a shot glass of gasoline.
Don't worry, it's not harmful in that quantity unless you inhale the fumes. (don't inhale the fumes.)

i've been homeless and havent lived in comfy middle-class surroundings my entire life, so log off you paternalistic prick and stop trying to justify your nonsense in terms of "helping people" (and then getting butthurt when those people aren't dependent on you and thus have the ability to object to your nonsense)

Quiet, insolent prole. He knows what's best for you. Sit down and eat your cereal. Don't forget to say ==thank you master==
(But put sugar on that cereal and so help me god I'll turf you out.)

I don't even work in fucking charities, I'm active in unions and a Socialist party. I just don't believe that in order to be left-wing I need to be a hinderance and a bother to the rest of society. I know, crazy right?

And for the second time, stop with your "as a …" shit. It's played out and cringeworthy

I love when I get someone so butthurt that they start joining other people's arguments to have another shot. It's okay socdem user, you can leave with your head down now.

Then why be in a union.
Going on strike is bad, it disrupts innocent consumers. Don't do this, Amigo.

You'll keep replying. That's the fun of it.
and if you stop I'll take the flag off and for every 1 word I put out you'll give me 10.

It's depressing to know that the left is in such disarray in the United States that "Socialist" party members are afraid of being a hindrance on capitalist society.

When workers, regular people, homeless people and charity people are angry at you, you're not being a hindrance to "capitalist society".

You'll learn to tell the difference one way, but unfortunately, until then, you'll probably have turned dozens of workers into lifelong anti-communists.

So you would prefer to clean up capitalism's mess for it, rather than oppose capitalism.

So what you're saying is the coal miners should've let Edward Heath arse-fuck them rather than being a hindrance by going on strike during an energy crisis, right?
I mean what about the poor ordinary workers cut down to a 3 day week? What will the plebs do without their weekly broadcast of Dixon of Dock Green?

I can see that this entire conversation is pointless.

I love when I get someone so butthurt that they start doing research and reading Wikipedia articles as they argue.

SocDem user, you really need to be less transparent about how mad you get once you're btfo. It's probably going to happen a lot, so you need to learn how to deal with it better.

The goalpost pushing in this thread is amazing. So, an asshole blocking traffic isn't responsible for people getting to where the need to be? Fuck you. That's textbook victim blaming. Blocking the 101 doesn't send a message to the capitalists, it turns you into clip on YouTube getting mowed down by an SUV for being a retarded asshat.

I guess it is. I don't know why you're posting on a leftist board if you belong to a Social Democrat party and are anti-capitalist and anti-anarchist. You like to call yourself a leftist, but you are an ally to capitalists.

most people have no idea how materially awful and mind-breaking it is to live inside a homeless shelter, and you charity/nonprofit fuckers do your absolute best to hide this.

this is because exploitative parasites need to make shelter-living seem like a blessing, otherwise people would actually sit on their asses and comprehend that more housing needs to be fuckin built on a massive scale to end homelessness (and also wouldn't "donate to charity" and some even would object to their local/state government giving their tax dollars to enforce such nonsense curfews and shit).

also plenty of shelters and nonprofits that "service" homeless people encourage people to call the police on homeless people so that they can "gain access to services", or even claim that homeless people who refuse their "services" are mentally ill and cannot make rational decisions (and thus must be arrested or involuntarily committed) – when really, is this appealing? would you want to kowtow to all this curfew and rules nonsense to have temporary access to a place where:

your personal possessions are at risk all the time (YEAH, EVERYTHING CAN AND WILL GET STOLEN, INCLUDING TOOTHBRUSHES)

you have literally zero privacy, where staff can riffle through your possessions at any time and for any reason

you aren't allowed to stay inside after 7am, if you do you get "put out"

you aren't allowed to use phones while inside, otherwise you get put out

you must come inside before 8pm, otherwise no bed for you THAT NIGHT, and the NEXT TWO NIGHTS

Go on, defend your fellow classcucks who hold porky's ability to extract their labor for his profit over the lives of his fellow worker, over the interests of his on material class.

Yeah, I literally just learned about a seminal moment in British political history from wikipedia.

Actually, if you want an overly revealing look into my psyche I need to be BTFO more often, and I need to be more transparently upset by it. The problem isn't being wrong, but being right and being reassured of it. If you could get me into an all-caps spewing rage, that would be true success for both of us. It won't happen, though. Tragically.

see

You want to know I know you're a fucking trolls? People with a basic understanding of how money works don't kill the workers of a company to shut it down, they kill the entire board.

But of course, with sending a message to the porkies, you fuck the worker without having a back up plan. How about you stop LARPing and play in traffic for the good of the cause. I need a hood ornament.

what's wrong with ghandi? he achieved his goals with non violent means.

who are you? an armchair larper indulging in impotent violence fantasies.

if i had the chance of following either ghandi or you as a leader in a revolution, i'd pick ghandi hands down.

nor go ahead and denounce me as a lib/fbi/idealist/boogiemanoftheday. i know it's all you got since you lack substantial arguments.

Tbh this nasty state of affairs makes me think that pretty much all the homelessness/nonprofit/charity industry is just guard labour.

honestly it's legitimately amazing how well they've managed to hoodwink people into thinking that donating to these sets of enforcers ends up "helping the homeless".

because he was hugely sympathetic to the imperialists except for the fact that they were occupying his nation

fucking bootlicker faggot

And you fucking wonder why?

he had the ability to seee that his opponents were human beings, too. an ability that you lack, hence your belief in simplistic solutions.

not an argument.

not an argument.

You get people on your side immediately by committing violence against actors that they actually hate instead of a random guy who wears a Trump hat. If violence was being directed at CNN reporters, Fox News, Goldman Sachs top brass on their way to work, Nancy Pelosi. Ted Cruz, etc., the people would gladly applaud that violence. When the violence is idpol driven "HWNDU" liberalism that shuts down streets to make it even harder for normal people to go about their day, that's when the people cheer on the state to meet violence with greater violence. This is why porky loves liberals, they make the people yearn for state violence.

oh, silly me, it doesn't matter that he was a cucked advocate of european superiority, he seemed nice which is all that matters

never mind the fact that MLK was a based pro-gun advocate of general left wing revitalization of the US and ostracized by liberals as "too radical" before they neutered his image into something he never was for political expedience after the civil rights movement was well regarded

not an argument

But that's what you are. The Gandhi myth is false, and you are but a butthurt 16yo liberal who cannot form proper English sentences and belongs elsewhere. May I suggest SRS?

not an argument

Empathy can go a long way, and I think you meant Malcolm X. I personally have mixed feelings towards Ghandi as he effectively neutered the left wing opposition in India

That's the thing.

Porky doesn't give a fuck about people's needs. He wants his profits and he wants submissive workers and the current system gives both to him.

If you think any of the shit that we do has anything to do with meeting people's needs

If the CGT trade union didn't encourage workers to block access to strategic road axes, oil refineries and the Havre terminal where 40% of it is imported in France during the Nuit Debout protests, it would have been only a short-lived impotent student movement.
So move out of LA and your boring suburbs and stop being so dependent on cars, fucking scabs.

We tell them to straight up ignore historical precedent, I guess?

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What is there to break?
non-violence is a primarily eastern concept, unless with proper study, western societies aren't adapted to certain forms of protest, their histories lack traditions in those veins of ideas. If you want to understand the effectiveness of these ideas then look towards the places that birthed them. Consider the spiritual beliefs, a persons world view, and you will see we are all very different

No, MLK was a pro gun, anti imperialist socialist.

Ghandi didn't achieve shit, the only reason the imperialists fucked off was because there was an armed resistance movement going on and britfags conceded and pretended it was about compromising with Indian officials instead of the fact that they were getting their asses kicked.

That's direct action. That's not what anarkiddies in the West want to do.