USSR was a capitalist state

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/ marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ Wage labour was in place in the USSR. Surplus value was extracted from the labour of the proletariat in the USSR. Thus, capitalism remained in tact. This surplus value went to line the pockets of the state as well as mangers of factories who were often paid 10x or so what the workers were paid. Even if that money were shared among everyone equally, it would still mean the capitalist mode of production was still in place.
The means of productions didn't even had worker's ownership in the USSR, they continued the model of a manager with power to fire, hire, demote, promote.
s
The extraction of surplus value still happened and the free association over means of production or worker's autonomy didn't happen which makes USSR capitalist.

In the late 1940s the various state industries were mandated by law to make a profit because state subsidising was now over. This is really just the enshrining in law of what was already a material reality. Russia, and the USSR, were involved with capitalist accumulation before and after the October revolution.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerated_workers'_state
marxists.org/archive/dunayevskaya/works/1942/russian-economy/index.htm.
libcom.org/history/gay-gulag
libcom.org/history/workers-against-work-spanish-revolution-michael-seidman
youtube.com/watch?v=3ufTFRGPrCM
icl-fi.org/english/esp/59/kronstadt.html
scribd.com/document/125008400/Workers-Vanguard-No-595-4-March-1994
marxists.org/archive/ciliga/1938/kronstadt.htm)
reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2nrbiq/panel_ama_the_spanish_civil_war/
ia601204.us.archive.org/16/items/CitiesWithoutCrisis/Cities Without Crisis.pdf
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Degenerated workers' state
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerated_workers'_state

Even Lenin said that he has only acheived state capitalism. After the Bolsheviks destroyed free soviet elections and made it more bureaucratic during Lenin's age, worker's state was already gone. Anarchists were suppressed by cheka and suppression of the workers and the dissidents only rose during Lenin's dictatorship. Kronstadt rebellion was one of the example of bolshevik oppurtunism when they slaugtered sailors while having massive casualties while ignoring negotation attempts. So USSR was never socialist/democratic(or whatever) except it's very early days.

no it wasn't.

Tell me something I don't know yet.


A lot of inept Trotskyist mythologisms to just rightfully characterize the Russian economy as ending up as its own brand of Taylorism, which is indeed a state-centalized capitalism.

Trotsky's poor arguments for Russia post-NEP being capitalistic have done a lot of damage for the communist movement. Poorly defending a good theory is the best way to discredit it. Read: marxists.org/archive/dunayevskaya/works/1942/russian-economy/index.htm.

Yes it was. USSR's ruling class commands the heights of the highly centralized Soviet economy and oppresses and exploits the working class directly through its stranglehold on the state apparatus. This class does not individually own the means of production, but this fact makes it no less a capitalist class. The central question to pose in determining whether the Soviet Union is capitalist or socialist is thus not whether the principal means of production have been nationalized, but which class holds real political and economic power. This power is held by the state bourgeoisie, which controls and disposes of state property and gears the whole economy towards the maximization of surplus-value extraction, towards “accumulation for accumulation’s sake, production for production’s sake.” (Capital, Vol. l)

The basic functioning of the Soviet economy reveals, however, that the extraction of surplus value is indeed the guiding principle. (All of the data we will present below come from Soviet publications approved for copyrighting). The Soviet bourgeoisie has been able to maximize capital accumulation because through the national economic plan it has had the power to mandate profit rates of 12-15% taken as the norm – a significantly high rate of return. These profit rates are not the result of voluntary self-sacrifice by the Soviet working class, but of high rates of exploitation.

This fact explains why this profit rate is undergoing a sharp decline. In the whole post-war period, the rate of growth of capital accumulation has been twice the rate of growth of output per worker. It is this relative decline in productivity that is at the root of the crisis facing the Soviet bourgeoisie. Its response must include a drive to intensify labor as well as to hold down the wages of the working class.

For a great proportion of the time during this same post-war period, the rate of growth of wages was way below the rate of growth of output per worker. What this means is that while the standard of living of the Soviet people may have been slowly rising, the Soviet bourgeoisie has had the power to keep the rate of increase depressed relative to the productivity of the working class and the rate of capital accumulation.

Like any industrialized capitalist country, the USSR has had to raise the level of social consumption, such as cn education and health care, in order to develop the kind of knowledgeable, skilled workforce it needs to labor in a mere technologically advanced, capital-intensive economy. But the Soviet bourgeoisie still puts the major emphasis on material incentives to be able to manipulate greater productivity without having to unduly raise the whole wage rate of the working class.

While the money wages of the Soviet working class have been rising, there has been a shortage of consumer goods for them to buy with their higher wages. The national economic plan deliberately short-changes the production of consumer goods, and this is a form of suppressed inflation. Even many of the consumer goods that the Soviet people finally receive are shoddy. This contrasts to the quality military hardware that somehow the same Soviet economy under the same national plan is able to produce.

Gulags also exploited the worker's labour. libcom.org/history/gay-gulag

So social democracy with a barrel of gun is somehow communist? Just nationalizing shit and planned economy isn't really related to socialism and actually opposed to socialism because it requires a one bureaucratic class of elites and centralized elites to control. I am not a Trotskist.

I just said it isn't.

What I said was that Trotsky is one of the biggest names in the camp that considers Russia state capitalistic, but that he defended this claim poorly, which gives Stalinoids easy pickings to dismiss all similar claims.

Imagine if communists argued like anarniggers.


libcom.org/history/workers-against-work-spanish-revolution-michael-seidman youtube.com/watch?v=3ufTFRGPrCM Concentration camps was in place in the CNT. Surplus value was extracted from the labour of the proletariat in the CNT. Thus, fascism remained in tact. This surplus value went to line in the pockets of the state as well as the managers of the camps who were often paid wages while the workers were not. even if that money The means of productions didn't even had worker's ownership in the CNT, they continued to use the model of a warden with power to jail, force, punish, release.
s
The extraction of surplus value still happened and the free association over the means of production or worker's autonomy didn't happen which makes the CNT capitalist.

In the late 1930s the various people were mandated by law to to be conscripted because USSR subsidising was now over. This is really just the enshrining in law of what was already a material reality. Catalonia, and the CNT, were involved with fascist oppression before and after the 1936 revolution.

How about you grow a spine and actually defend the USSR against porky propaganda instead of trying to distance yourself from it, it makes us all look like disingenuous idiots

No it wasn't.

Yes it does.

Why do you post Workers Against Work if you haven't read it?

Every time.

I wish Ismail was willing to post here so these threads would achieve the level of autism they deserve.

As if they don't with that one Stalinposter tripfag who's arguably the most autistic of them all.

You mean the most correct of them all?

Of course, comrade. Glory to the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism-Autism!

The law of value was defunct. Prices and wages were set and production proceeded according to the plan which corresponded to the use value of the products and the needs of the population. Labor power was not a commodity to be sold by the working class, as everything was common property. The money-form only served as an administrative unit to facilitate the allocation of products to the workers. As Marx says in Critique of the Gotha Programme:
In the USSR, no one had private property. One labored and received in return a certificate - in the form of money - which expressed the value of the labor performed. This could then be exchanged for products of his choosing which also had their prices set without any heed for market functions or exchange values, but merely according to the value of labor they represented. It was a society representative of this lower stage of socialism.
By whom? There were no capitalists. No one owned private property. The managers of state enterprises of farms did not become wealthy from it, except as a consequence of corruption which was fought by the Soviet state. The state took what was needed to sustain constant capital and expand production, which is a simple necessity. Arguing that all value produced by a worker's labor without heed to the continued sustainability of society or the general need is advocating for Lasalle's "undiminished proceeds of labor" spook which Marx spends a lot of time explicitly arguing against.

"The fact that Yeltsin, who had led the 1991-92 overturn of the Bolshevik Revolution, “rehabilitated” the Kronstadt mutineers simply confirmed once again whose class interests were served by the 1921 uprising."
icl-fi.org/english/esp/59/kronstadt.html

Kronstadt and Counterrevolution: Then and Now page 9
scribd.com/document/125008400/Workers-Vanguard-No-595-4-March-1994

Kronstadt was only an episode in a period of discontent, usually marking the start of the counter-revolution. But just before then there were huge strikes in Moscow which were kicked off primarily by the declining economic condition, but were also directed against the tightening control of the political reigns by the Bolshevik party, the Cheka, ration muh privileges, etc. The strikes were put down by the Red Army and workers were forced to return to work at gun point.

(marxists.org/archive/ciliga/1938/kronstadt.htm)

Anarchists were not even 5% of what the Bolsheviks ended up suppressing, namely actual revolutionary members of the working class who were dissatisfied with the turn the Bolsheviks were taking and the consequences thereof. Kronstadt was just the straw that broke the camel's back, and contrary to how most poeple think Kronstadt was anarkiddie bullshittery, it was far from exclusively that.

wew lad


you sound like a holocaust denialist.


Why the fuck does this has to do with the USSR? Didn't USSR did this in a bigger scale also? You don't understand what fascism is. Basing your claims on one book is also very idiotic when there are much more books that are against those claims.

reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2nrbiq/panel_ama_the_spanish_civil_war/

I'm not a trot

wrong reply sry

I could also use the same argument to a some coroporations of america to say that it isn't owned by specific person so it is a common property. But the USSR did had it's industries and agriculture under one class which controls them and one class that doesn't which is capitalistic. It wasn't a common property unlike the soviets/communes because the state had it which was a one giant ruling class after free elections and soviet autonomy was dissolved. Money form didn't served that purpose as I've explained.

Managers and state capitalists got much more money so I don't know what are you talking about. There were capitalists who were the state. The bourgeious economic relations continued inside the USSR like a gigantic corporation. Managers and state officials did get wealthy. Learn some history.

The Krondsatdt marines were literally used as shock troops in the civil war because they were known for their fanatical devotion to the revolution. They were the troops that stormed the winter palace and arrested the Tsar. You really think they were counterrevolutionaries?

Sure. That's probably why the first five-year "plan" was completed in… four years!

...

If communism is an economic system where the law of value is abolished, the USSR was not communist. If communism is the movement towards creating an economic system where the law of value is abolished, this is less clear.

Good prole!

Did things get better under Cornrade Khrushchev?

ia601204.us.archive.org/16/items/CitiesWithoutCrisis/Cities Without Crisis.pdf

read a book, pidor

Which destroyed the agriculture of Ukranian SSR. If they listened to Bukharin they would be better off with less deaths.

Holland Hunter & Janusz M. Szyrme. Faulty Foundations: Soviet Economic Policies, 1928-1940. ISBN: 9780691600802

Centralized command system that resembles a capitalist system with no attempt to destroy capitalist law of value during it's entire history isn't even socialist.

Haha no. The USSR is a dead relic of the past. And good riddance.

Communalism is the future.

Forgot flag