Jim Jones, a defense

Try to look at it objectively and turn off your emotional filters. Jim Jones was one man who converted thousands into life or death soldiers of communism. The fact that this is possible is of enormous value to us. Whether his tactics were ethical is irrelevant bullshit. Whether he was CIA or insane is also irrelevant.

Jones's tactics gave globally unprecedented RESULTS. And that's all that should matter to us in the end of the day. Learn to basic materialism for fucks sake.

Communism is not ethical, virtuous, or transparent. We are should not be a paragon of anything. We are a crude blunt instrument of proletarian liberation. World communism cannot and will not be achieved without heinous atrocities and criminal mistakes on our part. We should not shirk from this, nor should we waste time mourning or apologizing. Instead, we keep marching through the sea of corpses, with our hearts filled with nothing but cold ruthless determination in reaching our goal.

But the truth about capitalism is already fucking awful. We don't need to lie to get people on our side.

This is now a sleepover thread. Me on the left.

Op is a retard. Marxism is a scientific analysis of reality and how to change it. Throwing that out and subsituting reality… just lying, using populist epistemology and religious thinking will eventually collapse loke a stack of cards, or in cult suicide. No thanks, go back to pol with your bullshit.

This is the only time ill agree with a trot. You dont get an icepick this time.

The Lenin hat is sort of right. I think he's being a little tongue in cheek because of course we feel compassion, but we should only show it if it advances the revolution. The right is 100% disingenuous all the time.

Every major preacher in this country is making fucking bank. They don't actually give a shit about any of that salvation shit they just care about their third mcmansion.

I don't believe that OP advocates centering party policy around this sort of religious organizing, but that it may be useful.

Not if we prevent it from doing so. You are just afraid to leave the confines of your ideology and admit that Prophet Marx may have been wrong on some things. Material results and physical achievements matter more than any theory.

This. I'm just recognizing that it clearly worked wonders in Jones's case and that we shouldn't exclude the idea of using it ourselves due to moral reasons.

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If you think that the basis of our politics should be deceiving people, you are not a Leninist or any other kind of communist. I am sympathetic towards religious approaches, but that doesn't mean deception. Machiavelli should also be revered, but not as liar, rather as someone who had the courage to describe things clearly. Italian communists revered Machiavelli, and it wasn't because they engaged in deception.

I never said it should be the basis, but it should not be ruled it. We should use every tool at our disposal.

Good. I couldn't care less about fitting into a stupid ideological box and neither should you comrade. I want international communism by any means necessary, nothing more. Is it that far fetched that in order to achieve communism, we will have to break with some of Marx's and Lenin's positions?

Marx and Engels themselves correctly noted “Our theory is not a dogma, but a guide to action”. Guides are not religious holy books. You take what's valuable and ignore the rest.

yeah, that's not wrong
but jonestown doesn't make any sense. Cult mass suicide is not a pragmatic way of spreading your ideology.
Like, If I wanted to sabotage socialism/communism, I'd do what jones did.
Really makes you think…

Deception, in fact, is not a basis for practical action. You would understand this if you actually studied Marx and Engels or any revolution. You have probably read too much anti-communist history, and don't realize the practical effects of democratic organizing guided by honest materialism.

I'm not advocating suicide. But the fact that they were willing to go that far shows how devoted they were to Jim Jones's words and ideas. We should use similar tactics to inspire such devotion but instead of guiding people into suicide we guide them into revolutionary action.

hey you're not wrong.
But any right-winger reading this would be like

R E V O L U T I O N A R Y

S
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Because Jim Jones' most hardcore men were there with AK47s forcing people to drink and killed anyone who tried to escape

It was never a willing mass suicide

Check out those classic Raybans. Good taste.

Unfortunately this is correct.

Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that Jim's security guys gunned down congressman Leo Ryan and four other people as a precursor to the koolaid party.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown#Ryan_delegation

He was likely just a narcissistic religious scam master selling hope to the hopeless. Not that they didn't build a community around him and his church, but Jones got crazier and crazier and things just got worse and worse for them all. It may have indeed been more egalitarian to begin with, but it was intrinsically attached to a pretty messed up guy.

Lesson: invest yourself in ideology, not individuals.

Makes you think

Me giving you a kissu ~~ 😚😚😚

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N A Z B O L

class consciousness=being spooked like an isis suicide bomber