Confused liberal here. It seems like every application of socialism had been disastrous

ey fam the free market dindu nuffin :^)

You tell me why the ruling class deserve what they own. For all the talk of "no welfare cuz nuffin is free xD" there sure is a lot of free shit to specific individuals in a capitalist society.

Begorrah! How could you forget the million, ye wee sasanach?

They worked for property so they should own it.

But I don't care very much about that.

What matters is that market economies are efficient but socialism is not. Socialism kills people and starves people every time you try it. Why would you guys be any different?

OPPOSITEOFREALITY.JPG

wow, you know you are soooo right

youtube.com/watch?v=zIddCEBCKHQ

Lets not forbid "literally blockade charity shipments" on the brit side

Well I worked to take it from them, so I deserve it more.

How is throwing away 30% of the worlds food supply efficient?
How is having to replace your tools every 2 years efficient?
How is making sure we have enough weaponry to destroy the planet several times over, while leaving millions to starve, efficient?

...

To try our best to do it better.

So a person who inherits a fortune build through government contracts funded through taxes has an inalienable right to their inherited property?

Got it.

you learn more from failure than you do from success

what about people who are too poor to afford bread under capitalism and starve (or freeze) to fucking death on the streets?

Poor people deserve death tbh. The market has declared it efficient.

They should work harder and are probably lazy.

BTFO communist.

Libs believe this

because it works

I don't.
Anarchism now.

That's because the media only focuses on the """communist""" countries.
See this: youtube.com/watch?v=zIddCEBCKHQ

the best argument communists have is "capitalism makes some people poor"?

communism makes EVERYONE poor

Point to me an example of a stateless, classeless society that made everyone poor.

read the Communist Hypothesis by Badiou

spooky

left/pol/memeball.jpg

But no one's saying this. You are being dishonest. We have examples of socialism working and failing, but they are not the examples the capitalist media focuses on.

Is this satire?

Tens of millions of people starved to death because of Mao

not real communism!!!

you know what i meant

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
Funny because the reverse is what seems to actually happen. You have no idea how many times I've seen this mentioned in Holla Forums.

See you disingenuous liberal fuck.

meant

so the only good communism is the communism that collapsed before it could kill people?

What is it about communism that you believe gets people killed?

If socialism truly didn't work, they wouldn't need to do anything because it would fail by itself, wouldn't it?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

Mutualism is also socialism.

The implementation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.[5][6]

The examples given are not Marxist-Leninist states, so they can't be compared to them. I assume you're at least aware that Leninism isn't the only ideology on the far left.
Nevertheless, all ideologies kill people, and if we assess capitalism by the same standards we use for ML states, we arrive at a figure much larger than 100 million.

Good job being vague, it shows a real lack of understanding about what you're talking about. Try to learn more about what you're talking about before trying to teach it.

anarchism is stateless socialism.

This made me read the wiki article on Lukacs, and it taught me that cooperation with SocDems works
kek

Forcing people to live on collective farms, stealing grain from peasants

Vague how? If communism is the end result of the socialist revolution then is it not true to say that every attempt has ended in bloodshed, famine, stomped by porky or capitulation to capital?

I don't want to do another soviet union or try anything they did wrong so why should you use their failure against me? Also it was 1917 there were more peasants than workers. Now every nation on earth is industrialized.

Wage labor and private property took 5000+ years to take hold. We've had only 146 to try yet. Rome didn't burn in a day.

It's only true if you associate communism with the things the Soviet Union did, simply because they said they called their party the Communist Party. But then it would be just as correct to say that democracy leads to such things, since the North Koreans refer to their country as a "people's democratic republic."

Not even a commie, but the kulaks deserved it. Fuck capitalists, sitting back idly by and hoarding grain they made off the backs of their workers' hard labour, ignoring the situation while the country starves (from bad weather conditions that caused the famine).

If the lives of a few cappies is more important to you than the lives of millions of workers I suggest you fuck right off, libbie.

I see your point but at the same time they were trying to do something different to the orthodox based on and inspired by communist or socialist thinkers. If we follow your thinking to its conclusion then there has never been a real communist or it cannot be yet implemented.

not all ukranians were hoarding grain tho

You would make a good leftcom

I don't even understand what this is desu.
and I've funposted here for almost two years

We call that "revisionism" and it can get you lynched if you suggest it to the wrong people around here.
If there has ever been a classless, stateless, moneyless, global communist society then I'd love to hear about it. Otherwise, we have example of working socialist countries and that's as-of yet the closest we've come. Why stop there?

So why has nobody followed Marx's how to communism in ten steps for dumdums? Not trying to be factious here but if it is all laid out then why hasn't it been done? That it hasn't leads me back to square one.

Class was pretty loose up til about Mesopotamia.
I'm not suggesting you stop. Maybe just not kill everyone this time.

Many of the people who heavily criticize Marxist-Leninist states are not Marxists, but anarchists. The split between these two factions happened at the First International (1864–1876), so the divide between them has a pretty long history, rooting from the first socialist thinkers.
If we look at Marxists who critiqued Leninism, they have existed since the start of the Soviet Union.

Communism wasn't invented by Lenin, nor Mao.

Mao took life expectancy from 35 to 65, higher than anywhere else in the third world. There's, literally speaking, almost no one more successful than he was.

I'm sure you have, I'm sure.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918–19
Social democrats ruin E V E R Y T H I NG

Read George Orwell's "Homage To Catalonia". Anarcho-syndicalism works!

Before someone posts The Finnish Bullshitvik's video about it, read the second pic.

Only a retarded anarchist would believe the second pic demonstrates anything.

You seem to assume that the ruling class will voluntarily give up the means of production because we ask them nicely. If they would do that there would be no need for bloodshed. Sometimes doing the right thing requires you to get your hands dirty. Real life is not a utopia and people die in power struggles all the time under capitalism so why not work to fix the system for long term benefit?

Give or take. Lost track of the times I've been told to hang myself by Marxhead.

I have so assume you're being sarcastic. everywhere he went, guys wit guns fighting other guys with guns for reasons few of them seemed to fully grasp. I get that Homage wasn't a in depth autopsy of all the factions and alliances but even after reading Fighting in Spain I'm at a loss.

Orwell's an extremely well-known author and gives his personal perspective. Think of all the reservations a semi-illiterate liberal like our poor OP here would have if I gave him a pdf on the Spanish Revolution from libcom.org

OP, if you are really interested in exploring the topic in depth, "The Anarchists In The Spanish Civil War" and "Collectives In The Spanish Revolution" are both great reads.
You haven't seen Bordiga memes anywhere the whole time?

I accept this. I also think that a lot of the underlying lefty thinking is correct. Shit I don't even hold Stalin in contempt, the US jewed the USSR hard after ww2. I'm just trying to make the point that actual communism seems unachievable for now. I think there could be popular support for radical redistribution and the likes if packaged properly. Fuck I've forgot what we were even arguing about. It's half 3 and I'm half-cut.

I've been re-reading "Homage to Catalonia" and I don't know how you can read it as anything other than a dire warning about how stupid it was for people to go try to fight in Spain.

Orwell spends long passages talking about how his testicles were covered in lice. He complains with desperation about how stupid war is, you're running out into the fire of enemy machineguns because you think you see some wood you could collect because you're dying of cold. He got shot in the neck and almost died. In retrospect said the war was unwinnable, that they could have transformed the entire republic into an anarchist paradise and the fascists would have German planes. The only reason people think it's inspiring is because the old 'there's no such thing as an anti-war film.' It's like how new hires at Facebook get together to watch "The Social Network" in a group. If you read that book and think it's a good idea to do what he did, good luck with all that.

I've seen em. I just haven't 'read a fucking book' and as such have zero idea what he is all about. On the plus side I'm recently unemployed so maybe, just maybe I will.

Shame about that dip during the Great Leap Forward.

How do you weight or cost progress?

Why did the Great Leap Forward fuck shit up?

War is an unpleasant and depressing business, that doesn't mean it's not worth it. Orwell didn't regret it. As an aside, it's funny that Orwell identifies lice as one of the universal, timeless features of war but actually the Spanish Civil War was the last before the introduction of insecticides solved the problem.

That cause was doomed (with hindsight) but not all causes are.

The alternative being, what - to sit back and let the fascists win? War is necessary sometimes.

Of course there's no direct measure, but life expectancy kind of speaks for itself, specially thath dip in question.

Communism is full of examples of how an authoritarian structure that violently discourages feedback can backfire, and the Great Leap Forward is arguably the best such example. It's absolutely vital that the next socialist wave fully allows for freedom of expression and participatory decision-making.

so based

lol

monthlyreview.org/commentary/did-mao-really-kill-millions-in-the-great-leap-forward/

Is this satire?

...

Comrade… We are socialism.

First of all, I do not desire anything like the USSR. Second, because capitalism is worse than even Stalin's bullshit and is causing the deaths of millions, the poverty of billions, and the destruction of the very world on which we live. As Rosa Luxemburg said, it is socialism or barbarism. If we do not start producing for real human needs rather than profit and capital accumulation, we'll soon have rather bigger issues…

yeah, you know jackshit about socialism

...

So, what, your entire thread is just a complaint that the Cold War era sucked?

The word "communism" does not mean the same thing in political theory as it does in popular culture. Similarly, "capitalism" has nothing to do with freedums or rights or consideration for your feelings.

Does this seem not disastrous to you?

Soviet Union was pretty noice, too bad anarkiddies don't ever read beyond wikipedia

ia601204.us.archive.org/16/items/CitiesWithoutCrisis/Cities Without Crisis.pdf

After reading this I actually feel bad living in the west

I think I much prefer breadlines.

...

I don't know OP, how is life in your gated community?

Wrong guy. I'm not a liberal.

Oh my dear sweet child