So what exactly is wrong with nationalism? Pride in one's nation and people are a requirement for survival. Why, then, is it treated as such a terrible thing?
Furthermore, is lasting social change even possible without some form of pride? It seems to me that decrying nationalism while pushing for revolution is self sabotaging and contradictory.
because muh racism
{{citation needed}}
Nations are made up bourgeois nonsense and one of the most idiotic forms of idpol.
I hate nationalism because it tries to project real connections to friend/family/"tribe" on a large meaningless scale. My nation is not my "mother"
Patriotism and Nationalism are two different things.
Patriotism is taking pride in your county or people, in what they have done, and wanting to improve their state in the world.
Nationalism is wanting to make a state which is defined on *nationality* lines. A nationality is your ethnicity, culture, language, and religion.
Well it's got a track record of leading to wars pretty much every single time.
Does the modern world count as a citation? Name a people that has survived and prospered without putting their own first.
That's retarded. Maybe tribalism is some kind of defense mechanism or whatever but it's not required for anything.
I don't care if you consider yourself a patriot or love your country. Its important remember there are different kinds of nationalism. You can't say Sinn Fein, SNP and the PLO are the same as UKIP or Golden Dawn because muh nationalism.
You mean like the exploited masses that make up the majority or the bourgeois minority?
Hardly any nation as put "their own" first. The greatest empires Rome ,China, Russia, Britain etc. all had poor and starving masses of people. Unless you were a lucky soldier or fortunate enough to have a ruler who was wise/cared enough you didn't get shit.
wat, survival of what? Also how do I find out what "my nation" and "my people" are?
How about being pround in your ability to freely act without selling your soul to capitalist upheld hallicunations
Well, yes. Shit sucks but that's how things get done. Call me cynical but exploitation of something is unavoidable.
Honestly it seems like an argument of semantics, by those definitions patriotism inevitably leads to nationalism. Where does one draw the line?
This, life for the common man in Britain for example was so shit, that young men were known to get growth spurts from eating the shitty rancid offal rations (dog food) in the military during the height of the British Empire.
Superficially taking credit for the achivements of others, while living in an alienating consumerist society is pathetic.
Even taking pride in ones genetic lineage, or a common religion or ideology is more admirable.
This sort of 4th July style flag-waving consumerist patriotard faux solidarity is just contemptible. Especially when it involves people gladly stab each other in the back at the first opportunity.
They are not. Patriotism is for people that think that nationalism is only bad because "its done to much" and similar liberal bullshit.
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So what's the solution? Declare your property a sovereign nation and do everything for yourself?
Because your typical nationalists are almost exclusively concerned with their own nation, which is pretty fucking stupid or even counter-productive when trying to destroy an economic system based on its continuous expansion.
Is the furthest you could get without going full retard
You can govern an area without nationalism.
This guy conflated nationalism with "pride" like that's really what it is. At all.
Perhaps the last century of industrial slaughter and genocide that nearly drove the world to nuclear Holocaust?
How.
why do that when you already have perfectly fine countries
With a government. Even anarchism is a form of government.
Also nationalism is not at all what you said it is.
What would be the problem? Not all government styles have to be top down autothoritan without any justification outside of some spooky shit.
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explain what's wrong with them then
Whites never deserved it in the first place. Their nationalism isn't protectionism, it's Imperialism defense
You govern these places and try to strive towards internationalism? Seriously I have never met a non retarded rightwinger in my life. They all have incredible huge walls through the middle of their intellectual world that they seem to bump against constantly without even realising it.
Also there is only is one kind of pride that is reasonable: pride in your imidiate community that you helped to build and govern, pride in the next generation that you helped to teach. You dont need a nation or a state for that. Only socialism. Capitalism destroyed all the stuff that gave people identity and pride on reasonable grounds and replaced it with artificial bullshit that would collapse within decades if mass media would disappear.
What place are you even talking about, also we are anticapitalists here, we reject all capitalist nations anyway.
Brown nationalism develops into the same cancer sooner or later.
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It's far more protectionist than it is imperialist unless we're talking nations with a history of it, take for example Japan.
British Nationalism, American nationalism, these two things never, ever deserve to exist.
none of that is even true
the mongols, the spanish, the japanese, the russians, the americans
There's imperialism all over the world. Europe is mostly protectionist (excluding the brits and the spaniards, the dutch dindunuffin bad)
Agreed
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Despite your claims to the contrary, no single nation is doomed to be imperialist, in fact many are Nationalist because of imperialism as a response rather than in spite of it.
Don't take your little bitchy fits about muslims as Imperialism
I'm talking real colonialism. Once you make the jump you have no reason to ever be proud of your nation or its accomplishments.
And not every nation has a colonial history, other than being occupied and later driven out.
But I deserve that pride because I was born in the same have geographical region and share skin tones with people that actually accomplished something!
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I didn't make this claim.
Where did I mention muslims?
Finally we're on the same page.
I hoped more out of this conversation.
You're predictable so it doesn't matter.
What conversation, we're on Holla Forums. Talk to actual people about your interests.
I have the same question, but in a different from. I realize that ethnic and cultural nationalism are not suitable for socialists since ethnicity and culture are just "spooks", as leftypol likes to call it.
I do however wonder why you would oppose civic nationalism. Wouldn't a socialist nation be civic nationalist by default? (Socialism being one of the nation's defining value. If you don't accept socialism, you can get out. This would be civic nationalism.)
You're fuckin' steamboats, lad.
The nation are never the people, but is always the state, Practically speaking, Nationalism is allegiance to the state, not 🍀🍀🍀the people🍀🍀🍀.
So this is your moral litmus test? Whether or not a person's nation of birth was colonist or colonised? Sad!
What is their to be proud of from not building your nation yourselves but instead imposing it?
Nothing at all. But trying to tell little neets like you the importance of hard work and pride in it is a fruitless affair isn't it
Nationalism isnt just bad because of imperialism, it fucks up the mind of everyone caught by it and gives even more power to the capitalist media, the capitalist state and disempowers internal opposition. It promotes and inwards looking outlook, class collaboration and irrationality.
Seems like the spooks allready fucked up your brain too. Nationalism is inherently mysticism.
kek
I look at the hospitals and schools in India and feel great pride. You're all welcome.
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I do not understand what you are trying to argue.
I look at all the British and Americann troops who are still lost as POWs and I feel great
You're all welcome
Not every single nation is proud of the accomplishments of capitalism, within its nationalism.
This is a uniquely European imposed thing, that is static and unchanging.
No, it seems like you just have terrible politics that put a blanket on all nationalism because you have no understanding of history and how it has driven postcolonial life for many nations because you've never given them thought, or taken into consideration how defense of a nation, borders and all, would be best against a nation who hypocritically has borders but imposes its will elsewhere.
It's like trying to complain about a proud native american, what the fuck is even the point of complaining about it
There are far more important nationalistic ideologies that are subject to opposition and I would find you agree.
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This, it's a petty fiction that falls apart the second you ask a proponent to define what a "nation" actually is. That people who live (relatively) close to each other are bound to have similar characteristics is not any great discovery. But drawing an arbitrary line on a map and saying "this is my nation," as if by a decree from God, is nonsense. I could settle myself in with the concept of a white nation if I wanted, a Western nation, an English-speaking nation, an American nation, my state, my city etc. etc. but really I'd prefer to be myself. If there's sect of society I'd associate myself with, it'd be the handful of folks I actually know.
Man is a tribal creature, and I respect that. But bourgeois nationalism is a sick distortion of people's desire to feel part of a community. Associating yourself with hundreds of thousands of vastly different people you will never know or even see from "your nation" at the expense of "foreigners" is the epitome of class-cuckery. The concept of collectives always have been and always will be an apology for colonization.
Class > Nations
Solidarity with all working people.
Fucking CEOs and factory owners have nothing in common with you or me.
You can oppose a concept of a whole without buying into some relativism so non whites dont get upset because they get criticised.
Nationalism is upheld by mass media which is in the hands of capitalists or the ruling class. It serves no positive role in any situation, outside of self defense. And even then it allways backfires and only gets used because you dont have a more sensible reasoning to motivate people
Please stop pretending to be a socialist
You cant own a nation. You dont have a nation outside of your own head.
Yes, but pride in in your class, in human progress, etc, aren't things we're against.
No, it's pushing for revolution while supporting bourgeois ideological institutions that is self-contradictory. The international proletariat have no nation or race and never have. When you divide the working class up based on arbitrary plots of land, you make Porky very happy.
Aside from statist bullshit, nationalism displaces the worth of the individuals.
Egoism: I have value because I am Der Einzig.
Nationalism: I only have value because I was born in a certain place. Were it not for this fact, I would be worthless. I am not valuable as an individual, but as an abstract tool There is no value from me, only of me.
Nationalism is De-egoizing.
Do you have that pic in a higher quality?
Sorry no
*der Einzige
Nationalism tends not to be "lets be proud of our country" and "support domestic economies"
It's more about fucking over other countries to gain political capital.
Supporting domestic economies tends to necessitate imperialism and fucking over other workers quite regulary.
"In an anthropological spirit, then, I propose the following definition of the nation: it is an imagined political community… It is imagined because the members of even the smallest nation will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them, or even hear of them, yet in the minds of each lives the imagine of their communion… In fact, all communities larger than primordial villages of face-to-face contact (and perhaps even these) are imagined. " - Benedict Anderson
this tbh
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