Didn't the Bolsheviks come from a Socdem party? If so, why don't modern M-Ls see Socdem politics as a way to develop a vanguard?
Didn't the Bolsheviks come from a Socdem party? If so...
Nicholas Miller
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Owen Cook
In the past, SocDems actually planned to bring about genuine socialism through democratic means, like what DemSocs claim to be now. The fact that no one even knows this anymore and they've all become social liberals should show you how achievable this idea ended up being.
Justin Price
nah, becuz if we organized the working class it would just make them complacent and satisfied with capitalist
t. socdem who actually does see social democracy as gradually progressing to socialism
Nathaniel Brown
It makes sense seeing as how Bolsheviks were just as reactionary and right wing as the czar they were replacing.
Aiden Peterson
Prob because Stalin purged all the Bolsheviks.
Zachary Young
Reminder that there's no good refutation to describing ML as "social democracy at gunpoint".
Serious question, how do you counter that it was getting there in the 1960s and got struck down by a right wing reactionary wave which continues to this day? I was briefly a Bernie socdem before someone explained how this had been tried before and failed, and then linked me to Einstein's "Why Socialism" (which got me to read more about Marxism).
Oliver Jackson
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, "social democracy" was just another term for socialism. It didn't start to mean "welfare state liberalism" until later on in the 20th century.
So, the Bolsheviks were never social democrats or associated with social democrats in the modern sense of the term.
Michael Morgan
The right wing reactionary wave was launched *because* it was working, because it threatened the porkies.
Austin Wilson
Going to whisper you a secret here:
MLs are fucking socdems
Benjamin Richardson
…exactly. And if you haven't noticed, it seems to be working. Seeing Bernie get shot down by the DNC (was I the only one calling the debate schedule rigged?) from the very start was the last straw in getting me to look deeper into history and see that the ruling classes can't tolerate socdem because it threatens their power.
Nathaniel Thompson
Why can't people here argue rationally instead of resorting to retarded strawmen with no connection to reality? I mean, you're talking about the fucking Soviet Union here, a place which literally collapsed under the massive amount of flaws it had, and you still can't provide a remotely sensible criticism and resort to some retarded nonsense about how it was identical to capitalist reactionary monarchism. Are you legitimately this dumb and/or illiterate?
Jose Hughes
At that time socdems where communists, but they gradually became different things (the SPD being a prime examle). Modern "social democracy" has been in the shitter for quite some time.
Dominic Garcia
Look up the Second International.
Their was a schism primarily over WWI and the issue of revolution.
Revolutionaries took the name Communist
Socdem nationalists kept the name socdem.
With the formation of the third International, all reformists were (ostensibly) excluded.
William Williams
because you're on an imageboard
Adam Gomez
fuck off anarkiddie
Lincoln Evans
because germany happened, and the bolsheviks themselves denounced soc-dems and started referring to themselves as communists to differentiate from them in 1919
youtube.com
dunno if you're uneducated, baiting, retarded, i don't even know anymore on this reddit infested board
Joshua Campbell
Obligatory. Lenin apologists will never stop being assblasted by this
Jacob Foster
One of the result of the world revolution degenerating was that the russian proletariat was never able to fully rid itself of Social-Democracy even in its most advanced section, the party. In many ways, it would be fair to say the Bolsheviks never stopped being Social Democrats (the criticism of Kautsky, for example were based on the idea that he betrayed his past positions, which they must uphold).
M-L is social democracy at the barrel of a gun (see any GMiL ever)
Liam Murphy
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Zachary Hall
Only if you're a anarcho-coopfag. Workplaces should produce for the needs of the people as a whole as expressed through the central plan which stems from grassroots Soviet democracy, not run their own business as an island and just do whatever the fuck they like. The workers express their will as citizens of the worker's state, not through disorder and mismanagement in the workplace.
Nolan Flores
Not democratic. Not socialist. Shit analysis.
Jose Martinez
'democracy'
we know your game, general secretary.
Dylan Phillips
Are we even reading the same thing? One man management of the state and workplace is in no way a "soviet democracy". Essentially taking all control of their workplace from the workers is not socialism
Evan Smith
Look up "sovnarkom"
They literally built a parliamentary democracy on top of the soviets.
The only reason they were called "commissars" and "commissariats" was because Trotsky suggested it sounded more "revolutionary".
They dropped the pretense in 1946 and just called them Ministers and Ministries.
But don't take my word for it:
Trotsky said so himself:
marxists.org
Are you implying that if they were social-democratic they would be socialist?
Because that's fucking stupid. Social Democracy is capitalism through and through, every category of capitalist production remains (as it did in the USSR).
Joseph Allen
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Justin Murphy
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Daniel Martin
There is a specific definition of democracy.
It just isn't representative "democracy", which is a liberal lie invented in the late 18th/19th century.
Democracy is what you call direct democracy plain and simple. Where the citizenry have the political power, not representatives, not political parties. The citizens make the laws. The Anti-Federalist Papers make it clear that the liberal "democracy" invented by the Constitution is as far from the popular assemblies of Athens, Rome, Switzerland, and New England as it is from the monarchies of it's time.
America is not a democracy. Britain is not a democracy, as shown by the elite's reaction to Brexit. Even France is no democracy. Instead, the representative state represents an entirely new form of a government, a centralized oligarchy ruled by parties with a slight influence by the people. Capitalists and lobbyists are the economic ruling class that thus has influence on these parties/representatives. By this logic, the "communism" of the Soviet Union simply represents the representative state, embodied by the party, purging the capitalist influences that weakened their power. All Stalin did was overthrow this party oligarchy to create an absolutist regime.
Brody Jenkins
sauce?