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Also some very interesting criticisms of orthodox marxism.
So basically, the one good thing about UBI is that it actually gives workers a choice in participating in labor. The bad news is that it perpetuates a growing trend of the economy moving away from labor and capital and moving towards being based around rent created by raw power.
What do you guys think?
Agree completely that the very suggestion that this should exist is a total failure both of the left and of capitalism.
jesus christ, what do you people want
Communism and not nicer capitalism. Its really not hard. Production for use by the people themselves without propperty.
most Holla Forumsacks fall for the 'UBI is communism' meme
We must fight UBI with every ounce of our being, Paul Cockshott gave good reasons but the most important is. YOU WONT OWN THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION. YOU WILL BE A PASSIVE BYSTANDER IN THE FACTORS THAT CONTROL YOUR LIFE.
Just wait until the robot armies instate flawless fascism.
Not being treated as human cattle that exists only for the enrichment of the aristocracy would be nice
Just like now, then.
They have no idea. Especially the anarchists.
Nope. But UBI would in the short term improve the lives of the unemployed and underemployed in the west.
And destroy the lives of the actually employed
tbh i would view the future as a serious toss up between UBI, revolution, or suicide.
if they think i'm going to work under capitalism they've got another thing coming. always pick the option that fucks the other guy.
hardly. (unless you mean third worlders, and even then.)
bumpu
How so?
There's always something worse than UBI. Imagine a 'job guarantee' scheme with capitalist characteristics. Unemployed? That's fine. Shlomo Moshestein here will give you a room if you work for him. Rent is deducted from your wage every month. Hell do an extra sift a week and he'll throw in a company car.
It's a shame, since a proper post-Keynesian oriented one (where the jobs are state managed and so on, probably) could actually be an improvement on the current system for many sectors of the population.
More than perhaps any other element, it's the theatre of job applications, interviews, etc, followed by a society that still pretends there's plenty of jobs that puts me off the whole thing. Might as well knock one head off the reserve army of labor.
Just not right now.
That basically covers it. There's nothing to add.
UBI will vastly help the underclasses while preserving capitalism. This means it will eventually gather widespread support and get implemented fairly soon after automation will have made it possible.
The real question is whether it will work. First, whether it's actually possible (if it's not, we're probably screwed either way). Second, if it works, whether it will manage to preserve the status quo and the illusion that the upper classes deserve their wealth. I'm hoping that in the long run, it won't, but we may require an all-out war before it's overcome.
That ended with feudalism post-Napoleonic times.
UBI is one of the best things we could get, you fucking classcucks
UBI would mean a huge step against wageslavery and a huge liberation of the human resourses that could be used in a struggle against capitalism, which are currently spending all their time in the mind numbing labor. Also a big step towards the idea of the common in general.
Him being against UBI is actually one of the reason why I consider him a fucking meme, he haven't gave any good argumentation about it.. Then again he talks about Negri there whom I am a big supporter of.
Would it? UBI strikes me as an excuse to privatize all social services so people have the "free choice" on what they should spend their UBI on.
There isn't a set model for it yet. Seems to me the perfect vehicle for reform but the left seems largely uninterested.
Maybe time to start considering what kind of UBI you want or would find acceptable in the short to medium term.
How would you all support a UBI that was around 80% your national minimum wage, all existing benefits (except job-seeker related) remain intact?
I had a feeling this thread would summon that ubi bongcuck
Well I'll sit it out if you can explain why UBI is a bad idea without saying something along the lines of it not being radical enough.
Even with privatisation of most social services (healthcare seems the worst risk, and I've always felt there should be a sort of disability premium since my own arguments for UBI angled at normalfags tend to be "more flexible labour markets are good for our neoliberal hell economic model, but working hours could get lower and machines will pick up the tab") i feel it could be a net gain.
Partially because social services have been fucking decimated anyway. I mean, I investigated disability when I was all depressed and shit (but not suicidal, ironically. Now I'm happy, but have concluded there is no alternative.) and the end conclusion I made was that council housing is fucking dead and that the entire purpose of ESA is to Ensure Starvation of Autists, so when the bank of mum and dad goes bust it's the end of the road.
I'd still like to kill myself in the goriest way possible in some DWP building, or a fitness to work assessment or something. Might guilt trip someone into quitting. Awful, I know, but its one of those career lines where I can't accept the Nuremberg defence of "capitalism made me do it", if you work for someone contracted to cunt the disabled out of money they're legally entitled to by lying on forms and other shit then it's UP AGAINST THE WALL MOTHERFUCKER.
At least with UBI you get something
That trend is an absolutely inevitable result of technological progress. Humans will not be laboring 200 years from now.
I'm pretty sure that already happens, minus the silly stereotype.
You've just reminded me workfare exists and now I want Pol Pot back again.
Who the fuck thought that up, and why weren't they promptly tortured over a period of months before being locked up in a red-hot steel barrel full of nails and rolled off a cliff?
i was talking about people having house rent paid by their employer but sure, workfare is shit too and it should be the main concern of all ubi proponents
Obvious cointelpro/polintelprol. You're trying too hard by calling everyone a classcuck.