Tomorrow leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon, is going to formally ask for a second referendum on Scottish independence...

Come now. The EU is the biggest neo-liberal experiment of them all. The EU law mandates that the state may not intervene to protect sectors (jobs) and undercuts wages. Then there's Greece.

please make this happen, tories will be forever BTFO

Breakup of the UK is only really good in the same way that Trump is good ie. chaos intensifies

May say shit like "Hard brexit" and "A red white and blue brexit" but to be honest it doesn't look like she has a fucking clue what she wants or any idea what to do. it looks like we will leave the EU and the single market with it and probably trade with them as an outside partner. Thing is if we trade with the EU we have to accept EU trade regulations, aka "muh EU won't let us sell bendy bananas" so UKIP and their ilk will still kick up a fuss.

Overall the workers are gonna get fucked when the last remaining manufacturing jobs go and they can finally "cut the red tape" on workers rights

That would definitely be Cameron's fault. Knowing the press and the gullibility of the public they'd convince the thick fucks that Labour's """weak opposition""" is the real cause for it all.

Nobody even knows what is actually meant by that, but it generally means getting rid of free movement and the single market.
Most of the people who have been moaning for 40 years voted for the single market, that was the gripe. They didn't want an "ever closer union" or free movement, they wanted the single market.
Luckily for them they're all pushing 60/70 so they don't really give much of a fuck if the economy suffers, and if it does they'll vote Tory to protect their pension pots anyway.

I think the Euro is even more of a bigger fuck-up than the overall EU. Just because of the conundrums of Southern Europe, the euro will continuously be devalued which will continue to help the parasitic industrial complex of Germany to export cheaply.

lot of people don't like the regulations from the single market, like the falsehoods on bendy bananas and other shit like the UKIP made up.

Well of course there's the Euro. That was just retarded. You cannot have a shared currency across such a disparate group. Like literally toddler level reasoning. Obviously people are going to choose E9/hour to clean toilets over E4/hour (why does my keyboard not have Euro?) with some being sent home. And of course this breeds resentment.

Don't forget the insidious terrorists with their anchorcats, preventing the sinister ECHR from sending them back to Pakistan.
They are not a smart people.

I think the lesson to be taken from the EU is that the idea of a world government and everyone singing kumbaya severely underestimates humanity's ability for strife and to bureaucratize yourself.

The UN is the biggest example of that. It sucks in billions mostly from the US every year, but is completely undemocratic and capricious, and even the smallest changes to something like the security counsel veto can't be reformed, allowing China and Russia to constantly prop up and defend brutal authoritarian regimes.

"like there is this terrorist but in case we depress his cat we can't deport him. Sucks I know, we could get around it if we scrapped the ECHR though"

The case for independence is IMO much weaker now than it was in 2014. You've got much lower oil revenues, more dependence on Barnett subsidies, and Brexit makes the trade outlook for an independent Scotland much bleaker. Scotland would have a tough time getting back into the EU, would have to do it on much worse terms than the ones the UK is currently giving up, and would have to set up trade barriers with rUK, with which it does 3/4 of its foreign trade. That said, though, the mood of 'fuck it, this isn't good enough, let's tear it down and start again' is only growing and tbh I wouldn't blame the Scots if they went with it. The political system in Britain is absolutely stultifying and needs to be got rid of somehow.

please do

Forgot to take off the shitposting flag.

There's also the "EU makes 90% of laws" bullshit that shows the serious cognitive dissonance that exists in the mind of the average Brit. It never occurs to them when they talk about Sweden having lenient sentences, or Holland having legal weed and whores, or the Czechs having lenient gun laws, that maybe, just maybe, the important laws aren't actually coming from the EU. They aren't fucking laws anyway they're rules on inconsequential shit like labelling food products to make trade a painless experience.
In the future I predict some populist will scrap all the trade rules we have because of the EU using this bit of propaganda as the reason, destroying trade for the purpose of making him look good and getting a few points in the polls.

Yeah remember not to mention democracy champions such as the US, the UK or France.
$0.10 have been transferred to your account.

Na mate, art 50 is gonna happen at this point.I also wonder if the EU would even want us back if we invoke art 50

The fuck are you talking about, and how is that any different from the wage/price gap between say SF and West Virginia or some Black Belt town?

The EU would definitely want 60 million people and nearly 3G€ of GDP back, except maybe that time without any opt-out, which means brits would have to adopt the euro and the basic labour rights like everyone else in the union.

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I could see us fucking up extremely bad from brexit, Jezza gets ousted by blairites, Labour win a GE and beg the EU to let us back in. I don't want that, but i could see it happening

Also, the euro had existed for nearly 30 years before 1999 as the ECU, educate yourself before you shrek yourself spout out uneducated shit.

That was sarcastic, user. It just seemed funny to me that the other guy would just mention UN security council members Russia and China as "approving dictators" as if somehow it's only them.

Scottish Independence should be in any good Leftists best interests tbh

Weakening an already dismantled Empire, making the UK weaker, making a United Ireland a more tangible prospect, allowing Scotland to move further Left if it wants without having to adhere to Westminster and BTFO of the Tories are some prime motivations 👌👌

Is this a good thing in your opinion? If the union has to fight so dirty to keep us in, do we really want to be there?

I know it was scarastic, I just hate the fact the cow goes on about Brexit being the will of the people and the Daily Mail saying it's democracy in action we shouldn't even question but yet the cow only got the job because literally nobody else wanted it and stepped down

Maybe, May is an accelerationist? She wants to destroy the NHS to rile up the proletariat to revolt

How economically sustainable would an independent Scotland be? There's always talk about its richness in oil, but Venezuela had a lot of oil too…

What is especially fashy about it? Asking from Germany.

growing far right populism, open attacks both physical and verbal on migrants have increased, may has made all our browsing history accessible to the police. That sort of stuff, not what i would call fascism myself but worrying in the least

Thanks for that. My point stands that given the open borders requirement people were going to leave the poorer nations in the EU for the richer ones where they'd make more money for the same work they did at home. This displaces the native population. As to your point about the US, the US has never been in the situation it received tens of millions of new workers overnight.

I think you brits suffered from some kind of deadlock in a competition between tories and the UKIP for votes. The Tories wanted to suck votes off UKIP so they approved the referendum, while hoping the result would be "remain". Of course, the result was "leave", Cameron was utterly BTFO'd, and Farage fled like the populist rat he is.

Depends on who is us. It's Bourgeoisie vs. Bourgeoisie, remember, so the difference is between being dicked by the brit Bourgeois or by the European Bourgeois. In my opinion, it's easier for brits to fight a large European Bourgeois along with the whole continent than to fight their own Bourgeoisie.

Even a country like Iceland can do well outside of the EU, and even a country like Greece can go to shit inside of the EU. I guess a Scotland-inside UK-outside would be worse for Scotland than other options, though.

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Oil value in Scotland isn't as hefty as it was around the time of the first referendum but they'd still be well off if they went independent (13th largest European economy I think?). The economy isn't so much a problem for them in contrast to Spain completely negating their chances for independence due to Catalonia (They've said they wouldn't go against Scottish independence but it's hard to tell.)

I'm of the opposite opinion. It's why I support in principal Scottish independence but not just to rejoin the EU where our voice is drowned out by the 27 others.

SNP is pro EU aren't they though, Scotland will probably join considering the brexit ref was mostly pro stay there

Not him, but it's had dark undertones for nearly a decade. Demonising the unemployed, sick, disabled, immigrants, Muslims etc. They only knocked it off with the E. Europeans because they were starting to get attacked in the street.
There are things like workfare, where you have to go to a job to receive your unemployment benefits, which led to people getting sacked and getting their old job back for a fraction of the pay. There's also "sanctions" - where job centre staff will invent meetings unemployed people have failed to turn up to despite not being informed of the meeting. The meeting doesn't actually exist, and has been put into a computer purely to deprive them of benefits, pretty Kafkaesque.
Also capability assessments, which are designed to get people incapable of work off benefits by declaring them fit for work. This pretty much kills them and gets them off the statistics.
The average Brit is a colossal cocksucker and thinks this is great and cheers the government on when they do this.

Actually that's not what's happening, but let's say it does. So what? People move within countries all the time, from New York to California, from Manchester to London, from Berlin to Hamburg, from Lyon to Paris, from Sevilla to Madrid, from the Guangzhou to Shanghai, etc.
Wrong, once again, educate yourself on the immigration figures in the late 19th century and early 20th century.

Isn't your voice drowned out in Scotland by the several other million people as well? Under Capitalism, your voice doesn't even count on a city level, so on a national level, it's completely irrelevant.
At least within the EU, you would be able to gather solidarity from people from all around the union. Imagine you try to organise a strike against a large multinational company. Which works better: doing it in the UK alone, or in the whole of the EU?

Scotland is voting for independence though, they aren't a forceful break away like Catalonia would be 'cause the Spanish government ain't gonna give them and inde ref

That's what user said.

Yes they are. Hence I'm torn.

So ask the natives how they feel about their wages being undercut.
I specifically said overnight. Like when new nations join. I'm sure you got this and were just trying to be smart though.
Yes. But 5 million < 700 million. Can you not see how one group's interests may more directly reflect my own?

We're not voting on anything yet. But it would be foolish of May to say no to the vote and she knows it.

Jezza gets ousted by reality

May probably knows if she doesn't allow it it gives the SNP ammo about Westminster tyranny

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Pretty much. And Sturgeon knows that she knows it. I wonder when we get a new white paper and how she'll plug the gap left by the drop in oil price and possible losses to EU funding? Cause let's be honest, we cannot afford higher levels of public service than England from a smaller purse.

Jezza hides his powerlevel so he can play bourgie politics, though he has been pretty ineffectual the constant undermining him literally every angle has hardly helped his case. i saw him speak last Saturday at the NHS march on parliament, and while he riled people up it was all about going thorough the system and other ineffectual shit rather then getting us to run 200m to the left and storm parliament

Mind you, I do not support the European membership of the UK just because it's Europe and muh culture or something like that. Were a membership be offered by the Americans for some kind of "Atlantic union", that should be supported too, for the same reasons I have stated. Or an union with Russia implying Russia won't join the EU in less than 15 years. The key principle is: the more people under the same Bourgeoisie, the harder it is for them to divide and conquer.

Please educate me on how internal migrations within the same single market undercut wages. I want data and historical examples.
You said something about people switching jobs and moving to new places. Do you imply that happens overnight?
Do you consider the Scottish 'Bourgeoisie to be more of your group than the European Proletariat? If so, yes. Otherwise, your interests are ignored in either cases.

Of course Corbyn is going to look ineffectual at opposition when he does this due the fact the media hasn't reported on any protests for about half a decade.

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yeah I know, reality is a bitch

Better, People's Union of the Earth, of course.
SOON

You can if you raise taxes.

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39167350
It was pretty big

And cut on the state-sanctioned prerrogatives to Bourgeois fucks, but heh, welcome to C*pitalism.

This. The SNP may be tartan tory cunts, but independence would perhaps give the people further left of them a chance to actually fucking do something.

I think EU would fast-track a Scottish membership or make a separate deal - partly to spite the UK.

The EU is neo-liberal, but one has to understand the historical underpinnings of the union. The point was to solve the Franco-German resource conflict (the border region between the two holds vast resources of steel and coal) that contributed to regular warfare between the two. Because the countries are bourgeois, the methods of integration are also bourgeois. In this objective the union has succeeded, though it obviously is not the only reason for peace in Western Europe.
Greece massaged their figures to get into the Euro. Nevertheless they should have never been let in, but political reasons trumped economic reasons. The Troika bailout deals are also made with the objective of punishing Greece instead of actually attempting to fix the economy.

Don't worry kiddo, you're going to be getting a metric fucktonne of reality in your lifetime.

That's rare, they didn't report on the thousands of people outside their headquarters a while back. Then again they always manage to hide some article away nobody finds until you accuse them of not reporting it.

Yeah I know, when the Torys crush the Labour Party into a little cube at the next election. I'll be getting a fucktonne of reality then. Still at least we'll all be able to say that Corbyn was a principled man. Ineffective but principled. And thats the important thing right?

Not with IDPol™
Are you saying it didn't drive down wages? Most institutes tend to agree with you/ But then most of these same institutes promote globalisation and free trade. Take from that what you will. In reality low skilled workers have seen wages fall, as these same instuitutes concolude in small print (as did the UN RE globalisation recently, also the small print google 'winners and losers globalsiation' for more)

No but the labour market grew overnight. The effects take slightly longer.

So aside the imminent revolution we need a more accountable, representative government. As I see it, breaking up their labyrinthine, and in the case of the EU Parliament often esoteric, apparatus is a key step in this.

I wouldn't object to this. The SNP don't seem interested though. There's also the issue of how much higher you want to go to pay for our ageing population but that's another matter.

No, the important thing is the British public getting their fucktonne until they learn the lesson "Stop being retarded and bad things will stop happening".

We're gonna have to wait a long time then

IMO that says a lot about the EU. And it relates to the rest of your post. Whatever purpose the EU may have served, today it serves the interests of a global elite and even acts as a shield for them (they tried to 'classify' all documents pertaining to TTIP negotiations for 30 years before they were leaked)

This is why nobody likes the EU.

EU , and the EEC and such before it, was always a capitalist endeavour. It has always been about the interests of a global elite

I'd happily have both Cameron and May go in to the history books and a piece of shit.

Not entirely true, that's mostly what the Bourgeois ideology says. In reality the goal was to create an independent power which could compete with the emerging superpower of the time, the USA. Before WW2, pretty much only the German Bourgeoisie saw that, hence their support for the expansionist policies of Hitler. Some of the French elites did too, which is the only reason France was defeated in 1940. After WW2, when the USA were crowned as the world's #1 power, the British empire was effectively falling apart, and Europe was split between the American and Soviet spheres of influence, the European Bourgeoisie understood their need of a union to strengthen their own positions.
Look at how de Gaulle, who was in favour of European independence/union, and was not a Communist by any means, was targeted by the USA, or how Germany, the European economic leader was the only country to be split in two in Europe.

That gives them one less idpol card.
And they are right within Capitalism.

Not really. Foreign workers could go to the UK to work before and during the EU membership, and will be able to after it as well.

That will never happen under Capitalism, I am afraid. As long as a handful of people hold the entirety of national production, a handful of people will hold the entirety of national power.

The problem is that, for some reason, you anti-EU people seem to believe that a revolution is more likely to occur and be successful within small countries, and the smaller the country, the better. I would like to remind you that the most successful Socialist revolutions (not that this says much but heh) of history have happened in big, imperialist countries (Paris 1871, Russia 1917, Germany 1919, Hungary 1919). Meanwhile, small countries just get rolled over by their neighbours the moment a mild succdem wins the elections.
Imagine a revolution is to happen within Scotland. It would spread far more easily within a larger union than in Scotland.

Germany was split in East and West due to Soviet war participation, and the fucking huge army they had parked in Eastern Europe at the time. The US pumped shit tonnes of resources via Marshall aid into West Germany

I don't give a shit about the EU. What I give a shit about is giving the British public, the people who yearned for years for an honest, principled, decent politician, no matter what he believed, who didn't cheat his expenses, who would help the NHS, who would look out for working families. I want to give them all they've ever wanted, and then make them admit they never wanted it at all.

Notice how Austria wasn't, and how Germany wasn't cut into four parts like it should have been if the German splitting really was about "war gains".
"Aid". This is Capitalism, nothing is free, and the Marshall plan certainly wasn't just "aid".

I know it was capitalist 'aid' but the point was to develop the West German economy to be a useful buffer state against the Eastern BLOC

Showing the rest of the UK what they have lost by favouring Scotland isn't really that bad of a thing. UK and the Kipper hordes can do with a bit of a slap.

Only in the sense that it provides economic power and stability in a global capitalist system. Despite being fond of accelerationism, a divided Europe cannot wield any influence in a global setting, and I'd much rather have European than American or Russian influence.
The EU is also slowly growing a supranational sentiment, mostly among the youth. If we are to avoid the disaster and betrayal of 1914, nationalism must be fought, even within a capitalist framework.

Indeed, in the meanwhile the German and French vision for Europe was that of a superpower, which the USA absolutely did not want before WW2.

Yeah, I personally identify more with a pan Europe than as British and I know many of my friends do as well.

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I think most Tory voter would be happy to admit that if it meant a Tory election landslide.

Still quality research experiment that.

Go back to reddit you libdem faggot.

Oceana here we come.

EU is a shit but I want to see Theresa Mayhem and her shrieking Tory bastards squirm.

I think you are underselling the general sentiment for peace in the immediate post-war period, before the cold war had kicked off in full.
Historians and analysts wrote about the impending dominance by the two "continental powers" of USA and Russia already at the end of 19th century. German industrialists supported Hitler to suppress rising labour unrest and socdem and communist sentiment in the working class.
Do you have sources for this? Sounds interesting, I haven't read too much serious analysis on the French collapse in WWII, apart from the political chaos.
De Gaulle saw Western Europe as its own political framework, while most thought in terms of the East/West dichotomy - Western Europe = West = Nato.

Austria WAS split in two, the occupation was ended early due to Austria's insignificance. Germany was also split in four, in the cold war setup division between the French, British and American sectors just lost meaning. They simply unified as the Nato sector into the BRD. I don't think 'war gains' ever were the objective in German division, rather the purpose was to prevent a repeat of the Versailles peace treaty.

libdems, what like in the party LibDems. Didn't they keep the Torys in power for 5 years? To prove a point you want to keep The Torys in for 5 more. You're just as bad as Nick Clegg. For shame.

Literally any party but the KPD would have done as well as Hitler if the goals was just to stabilise Capitalism in Germany.

On the French defeat, there's a cool documentary, called "Apocalypse" I think, which highlights how the French army was superior to the German one in 1939, and how Pétain deliberately refused to send de Gaulle French planes against the Lutwaffe, which ultimately led to the destruction of the superior French tanks by the Wehrmacht during the Blitzkrieg.
You'll also notice that, besides occupying Saarland (with ease), France never attacked any other position in Germany, and the only battles of that time happened in Norway.
That could only be explained by the fact that the French elites weren't that opposed to Hitler's plans for Europe. Hell, some people in the Pétain camp even wanted to declare war on the UK after 1940.
Exactly, and that's why he carried on some of the first steps of the European unification in France.
Actually, it was split into four occupation zones like Germany, but, as you say, because it wasn't a powerful country, they let it keep united.
Indeed. The post-WW2 division was how the Versailles treaty "should" have been: a complete division of Germany instead of a light loss of territory line in WW1.
That time, Germany was deliberately weakened so that it wouldn't rise up again until much, much later.

I want a left wing Labour party, you are a Murdoch mouthpiece. I don't really give much of a shit what your opinion is.

The first Scotland indyref provided my very first political meme event, I posted so much Braveheart shit. I just hope they do what's best for them in all reality, and if that's leaving, then so be it.

I'd only be happy that leave won if it looked at all likely that a leftist government could get into power. Unfortunately the UK looks miles away from electing anyone to the left of Blair.

Not to mention, if the Thatcher years taught us anything it would be that accelerationism doesn't work.

I reckon the Tories could literally have every worker living on zero hours contracts, the NHS cut up by US health insurance companies and every school run by their mates as a "free school" before the class-cucked public voted in anyone as left wing as Corbyn.

I want independence and voted Yes last time, but I'm pretty depressed about it now.

I've been trying to wean myself off politics, but it looks like I'm being dragged back in. Scotland should be independent, and it's a more hopeful outcome in the mid-term than staying in the UK, but at the end the millstone of neoliberalism will kill us all the same.

Even though I hate the EU, fundamentally it seems a useful cynical calculation to get Scotland out. (Since Scotland can't join the Euro even if it wants to.)

Even with shit oil values, Scotland runs a positive balance of trade. The UK hasn't done that since Thatcher.
My cursory understanding of currency is that trade surplus = value goes up, independent of other factors.
So in turn despite the deficit memes, things might be alright.

In pragmatic terms, though, to actually get Scotland out of the UK the SNP's current strategy has basically been the only viable option. After independence, an anti-EU movement has more chance. (Of yielding a Scotland in no unions.)

You can though. Swathes of domestic costs would be denominated in a Scottish pound that the Scottish central bank could print at a whim, more or less. (This isn't cost free, but it's a substantial improvement in control and doesn't immediately move to meme hyperinflation)

I'm thinking along MMT lines here for reference, though I confess to having primarily skim-read.

Much better to have Thatcherism with a warmonger's face, right?

Thread theme

It sounds beautiful :')

Would there be any hope for a leftist government in an independent Scotland?

Permanent SocDems.
Which is mildly better than the UK.
Feeling strangely sick as I type this. Dread is spreading. This may be the occasion that finally burns me out on politics.

Oh you thought you could criticize my questionable handling of Brexit, did you? [angry frogvoice] [head juts forward and ass backward, neck craning to see opposite PMs while hunched over] Well you tried to leave the UK so HA

If it's better than the privacy invading pigs in Westminster then it'll be quite a marked improvement indeed.

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*drowns on own saliva*
So much for the tolerant left

No other party was strong or aggressive enough to remove trade unionists and communists from the public sphere. That's also why the conservative parties were happy to enable Hitler in his quest for total state power.
Or perhaps they thought (with good reason) the Maginot line a superior defensive position, compared to a counterattack into Germany.
I thought it was the rapid breakthrough at Ardennes that lead to the destruction of the French defence. I'll look the document up, thanks.

youtube.com/watch?v=5MpwFTW9mPU

God, I want to put a bullet in that smug face

where is the issue

hardly, I want Corbyn to do the job he supposed to fucking do, and thats beat the Torys, and form a left wing government.

If him and his supporters seem content on losing the next election (because you know being true to ones self or being principled or making a point is better then winning so it seems), then it would be nice for him to make sure that whoever replaces him isn't going to be a 'libdem blairite Murdoch' mouth piece. Corbyns failure to act decisively in this regard is his failure and no one elses.

nigga the most tories were hard remainers what you on about

no they weren't. 58% of the 2015 Tory voters voted for Brexit

UNIONIST GENOCIDE INCOMING

That's not fleeing, he's still around also. But you'd whine either way.

I like the 4% of UKIP voters who voted for Remain.

Also people who had No affiliation to any of the major parties it was 70/30 in Brexit favors.

All me tbh

It is absolutely possible for a "complete idiot" to win when their opponent keeps punching themselves in the face.

He achieved nothing.

Then stop telling everyone he's unelectable you dense fuck and start convincing people to vote for him.

I could count the things he actually did archive but I'm too lazy

FUCKING DO IT
WATCH THE ELITE PANIC AND CRY
DO IT SCOTLAND FUCKING DO IT

Isn't that considered a compliment for you guys?
:^)

>Enoch Powell ranting about it in the 70s alongside most of the British left.

tbh the Brexit-Indyref1 dynamic is proof we live in an actively hostile universe.

>Press hates independence (zero daily newspapers agreed with 45% of the population.)

And I mean, if Scotland leaves now it'll be because the Scottish establishment decided it's time to go. We still ought to do so to give the UK establishment and pals a wider kicking, but it's such a hollow victory by comparison.

the first line should've been "press open to UKIP and shill their rise." or something. I was trying to make a direct analogy between the SNP and UKIP there, not imply the SNP represent the entirety of independence.

The comparison continues into the 2015 election, where there was the steady realization that actually it was the SNP - not UKIP - who were going to upset the status quo, despite the general hype buildup after the EU elections in UKIP's favour.

polite sage for fuckups.

3 years and she won't. Mores the shame

I do. So, on the left, we can't talk critically about Corbyn. The Labour movement in the UK isn't a cult of Corbyn.

Just think since his reelection Corbyn hasn't done enough to convince people to vote for him. I thought that was his job? Also that he has done little or nothing in terms of reform to insure a left-wing successor.

It's just as much your job as it is his, he hasn't got the benefit of being a red tory cosying up to Murdoch.
Are there even any senior left wing MP's left in Labour? I'm getting the impression even Tom Watson has been undermining him.

Woh fuck I actually predicted this would happen from Brexit. UK is going to be so fucked over if they left. Which is too bad since I like the UK (not the shit UK gov though)

Think humans (Nazbol) vs orcs (Neolibs)

Fuck forgot to turn ON my shitposting flag!

I agree, but if he's not pulling his weight it trickles down no?

Probably not outside Team Corbyn (Abbot, McDonnell), but is that a problem. Burgon could be a good enough replacement if Corbyn loses the next election. Just that Burgon isn't going to get the gig if Corbyn doesn't reform and purge. I'm prepared to give Corbyn a shot at the next election, but atm, Labour are heading for electoral collapse. Corbyn really should up his fucking game.

Tom Watson is a brownite and a fucking snake.

Can I ask you the same question? I'm seriously considering leaving the UK because of the political direction it is taking. Westminster policy is consistently opposed to the desires of the Scottish people, and the government clearly have nothing but contempt for you. Why do you continue to run back to the master who beats you?

because I can afford to leave.

I don't follow.

sorry typo should be 'can't'

Who else Scottish in here? Come join the Action Front, things are about to get hot in Scotland. I could use you.

It was a pretty common thing said during the brexit ref, and especially after when people saw over 60% of Scots voted to stay

We truly are a nation of cucks, unless it's a Press™ Aproved™ Opinion™ people just dismiss it. Just look at how many worship the ground the Queen walks on

Does Northern Ireland have a referendum scheduled or anything?

And then we have Wales. Does Wales even care about being independent? I mean united or not, they're still full of Welsh.

the only hope for the left in the UK/England/Scotland/whatever is for it to go rock bottom as it's going now. then and only then will the general population realise that the government has failed them

No, it's just Scotland. Wales is probably more likely to want to get an indie ref than N.Ireland is, but the Welsh nationalist party has nowhere near the support the Scottish one does. SNP has almost all of Scotland, Plaid Cymru has like 1/6th of Wales

They'd blame it on the EU or immigrants, people don't question the legitimacy of the government as an institution here

Banks kept lending shit to Greece eternally despite knowing the country was a castle of sand and then had the citizens of Europe save them from their own stupidity when the inevitable happened. The only reason this ever got so out of hand was the banks.

thus what I said. absolute rock bottom, we're talking economic implosion, fights and riots in the streets and the like. That's when we begin spreading our rhetoric about things.

I just looked at the local Ulster councils and damn, it's a tight split. Shucks, I want to see Ireland reunited, and now with Brexit the odds are higher than ever, but it's still not enough.

We had that in the 80s, it was the last gasp of the trade unions and ended in the submission to Neo-Liberalism with Thatcher being voted in for 11 years of government during the whole thing

wow sometimes I'm happy to live in italy where the majority of people thinks that politicians are automatically gangsters (it's true)

Do you think it is possible to accelerate the descent towards this point by encouraging systematic and random acts of vandalism and sabotage?
Things like scattering spikes on roads during the night or putting glue in locks?

That is a absolutely retarded idea. You're going to cost people their lively hoods, and likely rally people around the government to find these vandalists

I was advocating waiting for the fall, then using leftist rhetoric to rally people to our cause

It's great that people believe that the Neo-liberal leviathan that is the EU is the thing that should protect the English voter from themselves, no chance of doing some fucking work, there is no Tory 1000 year Reich, there are elections every few years, try that instead of telling the British they need the EU they can't be trusted on their own. That doesn't go down well knowing the British pysche, only so much self loathing will do,asking for too much will get you a bloody nose.

You ever talked to the British public? They're fucking retarded mate, I know I'm one of them. Lack of education and deliberate obfuscation leads to them being uninformed and angry at the wrong things.

Stupidity? The banks walked away with the interest money and then taxpayer money off the bailout. The banks couldn't be happier.
Or successive Greek governments could have not gone on massive loan-fuelled spending sprees without increasing revenue by tax hikes or tackling widespread tax evasion and other endemic corruption.

In successive surveys, Britons were consistently the least informed about the EU.

Have you ever read the Guardian? Have you ever watched the BBC, did you see the nonsense they pulled the whole way, and people didn't buy it.

The least informed about the EU, you are dangerously close to saying they don't know how good the EU is, the EU is utter shit, they know enough.

Great.
People will only support the government as long as the government protects them. There is value in demonstrating that the government are weak.

As a general rule the British public don't know shit about anything. They aren't fit to govern themselves in any manner.

right yeah i remember now, when all those IRA bombings happened people totally questioned the legitimacy of the government and totally didn't across the board hate the IRA

They had good instincts this time though, didn't they. You can change a small Government, you cannot change the EU, they knew that, and that was all that was needed to know.

Both were shit options, thing is people didn't oppose the neo-liberal agenda of the EU they opposed the "muh bendy bananas" and other UKIP falsehoods. the fact of the matter is they didn't know about the EU and they didn't even understand the EU vs EEC and the impacts on trade, and thusly their lively hoods. look at Wales, you can't walk 20 meters there without bumping into a "Funded by the EU" sign, yet the votes for leave were higher based on muh immigrants and such

...

And the irony is that Wales has like no immigrants.

Well , you can see across the board that it's not the places with immigrants who voted to leave it's the places without them with an irrational fear whipped up by UKIP and such who voted to leave

It remains to be seen how Brexit will play out. I disagree that it's possible to change the "small" UK government because democracy is fundamentally flawed and ineffective. Any sufficiently well funded entity can sway public opinion sufficiently to control the outcome of elections and other mass movements.

Anyway, even assuming they were right, you don't get to claim your monkey has "good instincts" just because it randomly pressed the right button for once. If we were keeping score, the broken clock would be beating the UK populace by a few orders of magnitude so far.

Corbyn, saying that he's useless and terrible and everyone should hate him

I think he's a good case study of how the freedom of expression we're apparently afforded under liberal democracy is a farce. You can say what you like, but as soon as it's something against the status quo you'll be quashed under misrepresentation and being selectively ignored by the media pretty much across the board.

Wow I fucked up that there, was meant to just be at

They are completely deluded about what counts as "their" oil.

That is a terrible analogy. Our federal government imposes strong legal and economic uniformity over the states, whereas the EU has been enlarged and enlarged again to the point where it includes 3rd-world nations with full access to your commodity and labor markets, but NONE of your legal regulations, and as a result the material gap inside the EU is incomparably wider than within the US.

The closest we come to the insanity of the EU after the post-90s enlargements is our overseas dependencies, which barely amount to a statistical blip on the radar in population or economic terms.

I like Corbyn a lot, but there's one single crucial issue (even aside from trade protectionism, which Corbyn quietly supports) he seems from my research to sincerely drink the Kool-Aid on: Mass economic immigration. Contrariwise, though our own Bernie Sanders is tight-lipped on the issue, a cursory web search will unearth statements and legislative actions opposing it as the porky scam it is.

Comrade Jezza or someone capable of replacing him must break with the neolibs on this issue while there's still time.

Hardly. Scottish waters are already defined as part of the territory of Scotland and under Scottish law. If you're arbitrarily going to take that away, you might as well say they're deluded to think Edinburgh isn't staying in the union.

The only "delusion" is the idea that the 1998 boundary change to bring that border in line with international law represented theft, and that's amongst the Twitter crowd. The SNP don't as a rule claim that area would be Scottish on independence. (And it doesn't really matter anyway.)

(Unless you're referring to the fact it's all taken by fucking multinational corporations because jesus christ the British state is retarded and squandered a hilariously useful resource in a way worthy of nightmarish screaming until the end of time.)

RED CLYDESIDE NOW

My understanding is that the Scots claim the blue line is fair.

Probably nothing. Sturgeon should have waited until the either Brexit finished or the Tories did something stupid like grant Trump a state visit.

A lot of the EU enlargement and 'four freedoms' stuff is to increase the level of economic uniformity. The cohesion fund is explicitly that.
The EU has no legislation? What the fuck are all those people in Brussels and Strasbourg doing then? Or are you perhaps referring to the subsidiarity principle?

The EU doesn't even have harmonized stipulations as simple as a minimum wage or pension payout. 99.999% of regulations the EU imposes fall into two categories:
a) Arbitrary minutia to make trade goods more compatible between export markets
b) Usurious debt instruments and austerity policies

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You hear that sound? It's the sound of a million Kippers screaming >muh sovereignty

Random scots on the internet do. 1977 is explicitly cuntery. (To such a degree I would argue it, in itself, constitutes an argument with independence. You don't stay in a relationship where your other half is constantly plotting to make you stay against your will.)

Pic related is the actual boundary that everyone serious accepts.

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Braveheart has been a giant meme though. SNP support actually dipped after it was released.
The whole thing amounts essentially to slander against nationalists by smug liberal Labourites. (Who in terrific irony, are basically just arsehurt that in pandering to national sentiment in the 80s to solidify their base before retreating to lazy Blairism in power, sewed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.)

And now I must leave, because I have to laugh some more at the the fact Labour seriously thought a Scottish Parliament would stop Scottish Nationalism and lock the SNP away from power forever. Hahahahahaha. Ha. Haha.

No, you can buy/sell non-bendy bananas to the EU but buy/sell bendy bananas from everyone else.
The scenario you're describing is staying in the single market.

1st paragraph was Holla Forums 2nd was /r/enoughsandersspam
so confused.

That's not how it works, once it's triggered it's done and the UK gets automatically kicked out without a deal in 2 years.

Merkel certainly won't, they'll tariff the shit out of any industry the UK has left and gladly take the UK's entire finance and banking sector back inside the single market. 4th Reich Achieved.

My prediction is that SNP will either split in two or three after the referendum (regardless of the outcome) or they'll quickly lose power.

holy shit, how is this not a meme yet?

good point, John Oliver is a charismatic bastard though.

Good. Hopefully this will stop Brexit or at least make Brits regret it.

Might actually move to Scotland if they do leave. Please do it.

Capitalists BTFO.

What? That's simply false.

It's a good case study on why democracy is completely broken. The media ultimately decide how people vote. That's why all the talk of "getting our sovereignty back" and the EU being "undemocratic" makes me laugh. It's just a bunch of slaves cheering that they've swapped one master for another.

What's interesting is the one party state whinging from the media in Scotland in particular. I mean, I don't believe SNP partisanship is any less stupid than most other forms - but distrusting the press, even if it was explicitly because you genuflect to a photo of Nicola Sturgeon thrice before bed - is always a good move. The press' screeches of horror are both amusing and tedious. (Particularly wooly implications about having a populace that distrusts the media - as though having a media that hates the populace is any better.)
One of the reasons I like Wings Over Scotland, even if he's flagrantly partisan, is just for going through this and giving quick examples with simple rules. (The headline is always a lie, parts of the headlines in quotation marks are flagrantly made up, occasionally the truth will be hidden somewhere near the bottom, "wouldcouldery", implications that would be libellous if you changed the wording slightly, etc.) and for raising the idea of forcing newspapers to publish corrections in the same prominence as the original article. (Headline lie = headline correction)

I can't really appeal to any golden age of journalism, though. It's probably always been 99% pulpable trash. It's just more obvious in Scotland than most places because of the weird duality of being a region and a nation. (Meaning the Scottish establishment are particularly shit, incompetent, cringing and petulant.) Though I feel I should tag on a note that much like Brexit, there are parts of the Scottish establishment perfectly amenable to the SNP or to independence. The thing isn't as binary as it seems. And now I'm going to switch off before I start gargling because the topic has lost interest. Scottish Politics are a great microcosm, but they're so fucking dull in and of themselves.

True enough, though our federal regulations are well beneath those of most states, primarily in force to keep dodgier regions like the Southeastern states from turning into complete backwaters. Older members of the EU like the UK wouldn't feel the bite of such legislation until long after Eastern Europe (and then the Mediterranean, for that matter) had been buoyed to its level.

I often wonder if, before the EU was fully perverted into a catspaw for neolibs in the 2000s, there was ever a political environment in which the EU could've turned into a truly functional supernational body. Everything that happened since seems designed to fail:
policyoptions.irpp.org/magazines/one-world-one-money/currency-unions-europe-vs-the-united-states/
(ignore the final item shilling for "wage and job flexibility" & "low unemployment", the US's deregulation is something the EU could use less of, and I'd much rather have unemployment with decent welfare than underemployment)

Like I emphasized in the EU's rules rarely touch on things that would actually decrease the massive arbitrage in standard of life and working conditions between nations.

Most free-market faithfuls were in the remain camp in the UK, but some less trade-oriented right-wingers actually thought EU-regulations on labour rights excessive. That was also a common left-wing argument for remaining in the EU - using Brussels as a safeguard against Tory excess.

The original plan for the euro was to constrain it into a few core states: Benelux, France and Germany. That plan would have kept it an 'optimum currency zone'. But the political value of having a common currency surpassed the economic sensibilities.

Cohesion fund tho.

Are you familiar with the subsidiarity principle? The type of unified labour market reforms you are advocating will not pass before muh sovereignty has died off (quite literally), so at least 20 years, barring any monumental change or catastrophe.

YESYESYES

ALBA GU BRÀTH!