What went wrong? how does a movement responding to such a catastrophic recession peter out so limply?

Using consensus or near-consensus instead of majorities for decision-making means that it takes longer to reach decisions, and if you don't reach the threshold, you revert back to doing nothing. This argument supporting this is about protecting minorities, but this procedure can only protect minorities that benefit from the status quo. The focus on consensus comes from the American peace movement, and the American peace movement got that from some very active members with a religious background: Quakers. Now, huge difference between Quakers and Occupy is that Quakers live together and know each other well. Using super-majorities in groups that anybody can join any moment means it is easier to stop thresholds for action being reached, and the closer to pure consensus you get, the easier it is. If your group uses full consensus, the baddies just need one person blocking everything.

The problem with using anything else than full consensus is how you get people who lose the vote to do anything for implementing a decision that they themselves don't agree with. So, if you want the structure go in the majoritarian direction while keeping some of the consensus-oriented discussion culture, you have to remove the ability for tiny groups to stop everything, while giving them other options to express their position: 1. expressing that you vote against something, but will work towards it if that's what the majority decides, 2. expressing that you vote against something, and will not do anything to implement it, but that you will not stand in the way of those who implement it.

I went to OWS the day after they got shoah'ad by the NYPD. Some drugged up anarcha fem cunt walked up to me and offered to sell some crap I don't remember what. I accused her of being a capitalist profiteer and she started wailing on me until her anarcho comrades pulled her away. True story. Also I was drunk.

It had no coherent goal, ideology, or methodology.

The reason it had none of those was

this my fams

all they had to do was bomb the banks

The lifestylists came and their dirty hippie dreads gave the media ammunition to make it seem fucking dumb to the public.

Why do people keep asking this when the undeniable, canonical answer is feminism?

This. Use the old thread, don't make a new one.

Because half of you weren't old enough to even remember it and half of those people lie as if they were. IDpol had nothing to do with it, it was the media destroying us and poor organization because you had liberal capitalist sympathizers and leftists yelling at each other about what should be done. a meeting was literally consisting of "well i think we should make our primary stance that they should pay their taxes rather than evade them," "i think they need more taxes." while the leftists were shouted down for any suggestions they made because by the end it consisted of mostly corporate regulatory liberals who just wanted more rules for them rather than to radically change the system

That's what the media kept claiming when beating them down, but "Bring the Bankers to Justice" was a universal statement among all instances and branches. No rally anywhere went by without this message being chanted repeatedly.

Some SJW and other such piled on the bandwagon and the media immediately said, "Oh look at these guys, they have no message!"

The Tea Party had much the same thing going, various religious and racist organizations piling on, states rights, American exceptionalist (essentially neo-cons, ironically), free trade advocates that simultaneously argued against free trade treaties, each group with their own message, no universal statement at all save maybe "Neo-cons bad, Democrats worse!", and yet the media never made the same declaration of them, as their owners saw them as a tool rather than a threat.

Idpol went wrong.

The Progressive Stack.

Thats where the IDPOL cancer started, correlate all the NeoLib Borg buzzwords with the escalation of OWS in google trends.

I think its pretty clear 🍀🍀🍀someone🍀🍀🍀 pushed that shit through OWS to crack the movement.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

This article is a good look at the deep state infrastructure mobilized against OWS

and

cryptome.org/2015/03/NSA_surveillance_program.pdf

if you want to go down the rabbit hole

Read The Democracy Project, By David Graeber.

In it he describes several reasons. Largely, because the police flouted all public assembly laws to get rid of them, and assaulted the liberals on purpose, who were afraid to really stand up to cops, and then once this happened the liberal media abandoned them and began to spread falsities (one is that they threw shit at the police, which didn't happen) etc. Other than that he references idpol as a factor. The idea that they didn't have clear goals and aims is false, they wanted to create a directly democratic general assembly, for the creation of a consensus building machine. This worked well as an organisational principle, but they really didn't stand a chance completely unarmed against an armed state.

kek

How did the progressive stack factor into those plans?

...

Honestly, nothing really went "wrong". It was the first exposure to the left for a lot of people, and it was the start of the "newer left" in the US. The connections and affinity-group organizations started in the occupy movement, along with the general consciousness raised, led pretty directly to Bernie Sanders.

This "occupy was shit because it didn't cause the global revolution" thing is honestly ridiculous. The Paris Commune failed, does that make it meaningless?

Fuck, so I'm not crazy.
It always felt like all of these idpol divide and conquer tactics started right after occupy events.
I haven't ever really believed in the OWS, but now I feel almost nostalgic about it compared to what's happening now.

The money and impetus was generated by the 'hidden hand' of the NPO's such as Open Society Foundations who funded it. Same with Black Lives Matter - It gets dropped as soon as it starts drawing negative publicity.
Occupy Wall Street was literally funded by billionaire venture capitalists in the name of promoting their perverse vision of global market-anarchism. The powerful and the muh privileged always like to control the opposition as well as those who support them.

Since nobody checked the previous threads.

OWS wasn't going to be "the revolution". The best things we got from it, were the understanding that progressive stack doesn't actually work, and a new generation of lefties. Was everything perfect? Of course not, but everything wasn't going to be perfect, and if everyone had "just obeyed the white men", we'd be discussing a completely different set of fuckups and disappointments.

OWS did its job. Let's just leave it at that, and stop lying to ourselves about "what could have been".

Are you illiterate or just here to shitpost?

Made me sad tbh.
It's one thing to say that they are just silly lunatics and let these SJWs clash with right-wingers and enjoy the show, but when you really see how much they are a diversion for the left, it really sucks.

this depresses me so much. it was such an awesome movement. why it broke apart makes so much more sense now

I'm sick of people treating OWS like it was some huge moment that NIGGERS AND SLUTS RUINED FOR US. OWS was never going to be Tahrir Square, it was never going to be the uprisings in Tripoli, and Tunis. It was never going to be EuroMaidan. Those actions came after years of extreme repression, and they happened in nations that could be held to account by the global moneyed class, for their overtly oppressive acts. They were also convenient to the existing order.

OWS was a series of tent cities in public parks, in a nation that pretty much runs the global order. You could've sent the blacks off to the cotton fields to make sleeping bags, and had the women take turns laying spread eagle on top of said sleeping bags, and the "movement" still would have collapsed in on itself, or dissolved after gaining a single concession.

t.Holla Forums

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You're a retard

You need to learn how to actually say things, with words, and sentences. You also need to learn how to read. EuroMaidan is an example of a large sit-in protest that became something more. It became something more, because the Ukrainians had been dealing with a series of ridiculously corrupt and brutal oligarchs for years, and those oligarchs also happened to be part of the minority ethnic group. Many of the successful Arab Spring protests had an ethnic or tribal component to them, and all of these successful protests had come out of years to decades of brutal "disappearances at midnight" repression, the likes of which white, middle class, Americans (the ones you think should have been running everything) have never even begun to experience.

OWS, at best, could have gotten 10 dollars an hour for minimum wage. That would have been great, but it wouldn't have been "revolutionary".

They started to believe that the issue was a moral one.

So you're illiterate then?
You're literally the only person I've ever seen suggest that minorities themselves were responsible for the collapse of OWS. Everyone else in the thread has enough brain cells to recognize the difference between minorities and the idpol-spewing tools who use the existence of minorities as a way to divide and conquer.

Now please fuck off back to /r/socialism where you can complain about how racist and sexist Marx was and how we need more women CEOs.

Phony fucks with some literal neonazis mixed in getting money from circles within the EU & US establishment are good because?

And by that you mean Neonazis setting a trade-union house on fire, with people inside, filming it and laughing. Neonazis killing people in the East right now who would rather separate than live under them.

Isn't it fun just completely ignoring what the other person says and then declaring that you've won the argument?

Fortunately I don't care about changing your mind since you're obviously not arguing in good faith. Anyone else can see the facts and reach the correct conclusion on their own. Using such obviously terrible arguments doesn't do you any favors.

Your running theory is that any minority or woman wanting to be heard above the droning "acktualeez" of a bunch of suburban fucktards is secretly a federal police agent. I'll admit, it's a pretty fucking clever method of silencing anyone who isn't a white guy. It's also doing Holla Forumss job for them. There is a happy medium between the retardation of "progressive stack" and the supreme shittiness of "fuck everyone who can't speak middle-class white guy".

Nazis used rockets. Does that mean nobody else can?

I'M NOT THE RETARD, YOU'RE THE RETARD!

And what changed? It's literally the same right-liberal corrupt politicians now, but with the different flavor. It only became "something more" because of the amount money from the west supporting it.
No one is comparing it with OWS btw, OWS had different goals and different structure.
Would it be able to owerthrow government? Probably no.
Would it still be able to achieve something more without idpol shills and saboteurs? Yes.

Hang yourself.

cool

The outcome isn't what I'm talking about, it's the overthrow itself that I'm discussing. Back when OWS was still kicking around, there were people comparing it directly to the Arab Spring protests, and particularly the ones in Tunisia and Egypt. That was ridiculous then, and it's even more ridiculous now. Maybe you don't think that way, but plenty of people do.

What could OWS realistically have achieved, that it didn't achieve? A 10 dollar minimum wage? A couple more weeks on Unemployment Benefits? The core of what OWS did, was create the concept of "The 99%", which happened in the first few weeks. The secondary element was to get young leftists to group up, and start thinking about their political lives, which led directly to the Bernie Sanders candidacy. If you remember correctly, Bernie Sanders did ridiculously well in the primaries, and personally, I think he could have beat the living shit out of Donald Trump. He was the legacy of OWS.

I'll let you do the honors, since you seem to love parroting the KKK so much.

Occupy basically kickstarted idpol into the mainstream

Nobody cares that you're a nigger. Fuck off.

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t. IP resolving to the j edgar hoover building

You're a moron.

You've forgotten your flag.

If the circumstances had been different OWS could have been as effective as the Arab Spring. There were many reasons why it wasn't - mostly to do with the effectiveness of propaganda in the west and the militarization of the police - but one of those reasons was the presence of government infiltrators who pushed for things like the progressive stack.

The thing is OWS was good for creating a class awareness and creating a community or communities of people directly opposing the capitalist system. The idpol shills were effectively saboteuring the creation of such unifying community and distracting from the actual problems.

It got cointelpro'd from day 1

Which we now know doesn't work. Even the most retarded little reddit fucks understand that progressive stack was a bad idea in the long run. I think the left was simply to young at that point, and too inexperienced, to realistically do anything like the Arab Spring. Also, OWS was in New York, and New York is not Washington. I think OWS was something that we, as an overall movement, just had to go through. There basically hadn't been a left outside the anti-war movement in 15 to 20 years when OWS started. Now there is one. There will be other opportunities for us.

It's pretty clear at this point, that people overall are sick of /r/socialism style idpol. That doesn't mean we should throw out every concept of "not treating black people and women like useful idiots and toy soldiers". Idpol can't get revolution done, but it can get people out on the streets, where they can then be educated. As uselessly liberal as that women's march was, it was still a fucking assload of people, coming out against the president. If they'd had a tiny bit more backbone in DC, they (and therefore we) could have made a much bigger splash.

it was probably hijacked by shills. i dont really know the terminology. all i know is it had traction then it didnt and everyone got bored.

Because burgers are stupid idpol obsessed faggots.

Nobody said this at all you disingenuous fuck. You started off with
and now you've backpedalling to this toned down position nobody disputed to begin with. Stop being a faggot.

Have you even read the caption you were originally posting about with your NIGGERS AND SLUTS?

I think you're off by a few years.

Go back to a decade or a decade and a half ago. Remember when every damn meeting of a globalist organization – IMF, World Bank, G20, whatever – had riots in its wake, and leftists demanding Soros' blood? Well, fast forward to now, and the putative left defends globalism under the pretext of muh diversity, eveything is infested with idpol na dtranny bathrooms, and Soros quite literally owns a lot of these once restive organizations.

The Western left has been thoroughly COINTELPROed since about the time of these globalist meetings.

The core issue of OWS, that I could see, was that they were never able to coalesce their views into anything beyond "fuck the 1%", which was more of a starting point, than an actual goal. Arab Spring protests, along with EuroMaidan, were very simple. "Get the existing leadership to leave, and then have free and fair elections afterwards". Those elections didn't go in a particularly left-wing direction, which sucks, but that's an incredibly simple demand. OWS' demands were very nebulous.

Yes, we've already confirmed you're a faggot with absolutely nothing to say but hand wring over the purpose of OWS and make excuses.

You are so fucking new you need a doctor to slap your ass. You can't even tell someone to gb2pol properly
Time for you to go back.

Better than being a soft-racist ( ) and a retarded conspiracy theorist ( ) who has to be dragged kicking and screaming into any discussion that uses actual fucking sentences. Why don't you greentext some more fuckhead? Maybe then the stupid fucking groids will finally start doing everything you tell them to do. Have you ever considered that maybe idpol took off for a reason, and that maybe the left will start winning when it incorporates more people?

Kek

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Pretty sure we had enough people last time. People like you just need to fuck off.

lmao stay mad shill

1.The western left is obsessed with divisive identity politics over class politics

2. the feds and corporate media always be cointelproing

3. The protesters offered no alternative, no unifying ideology (sniff)

4. The DNC is a corrupt institution controlled by neoliberal puppets of the oligarchy and banging bongos in the park does not get them out of office

Zucotti Park was not particularly large. If OWS had gotten even one percent of the black and hispanic populations of NYC on board, that would have been something to the tune of 50,000 people. They could have been on the street at any time, and they'd never really have to fuck off, because they live in NYC.

More idpol will not fix that, and all it did last time was cause the slow decay of the movement.
I'd say if you wanted black people interested actually make it look different from every other pointless liberal drum circle protest and immediately start making plans to storm the building and get people to get everyone they know down there. If OWS has given us one thing its being able to point at it and point out how peaceful protesting and being seen doesn't make you heard.

This. The people must be united against the state. Endlessly emphasizing the differences between various identity groups is a very fast way to destroy any sense of unity.

Yeah, that would've been nice, but we're still talking about 2011 here. Nobody back then could work out whether OWS was a hippie ecovillage campout, some kind of Arab-Spring student movement, or a base from which to launch and organize Black-Bloc attacks. There wasn't a real left back then. The last big leftist action at that point was the protest against the Iraq War, which was a totally different animal. OWS was effectively a giant experiment in new leftist organizing, as was BLM. And which one of these movements actually threatened the US, as a system?

I think the big problem was that the differences became a type of stick to beat people over the head with. The idpol types were using progressive stack as a way to turn white guys into toy soldiers. Nobody wants to be that. The worst thing that we as a left, can do, is make the exact same mistake, in the other direction. We need to acknowledge the issues, but also acknowledge that Capitalism overall is exacerbating them. Basically, we need to replace idpol with something better, not just whine about how terrible it is. It never would have taken off, if there weren't something there.

Who ever said it was gonna "be the revolution", or that we should just "obey white men", you fuckwit? The point is that individualist identity politics, and a mass movement to contront capital are two things that cannot coexist, as demonstrated by pretty much all global activity within "the left" since OWS.

Identity politics were actively utilized by intelligence agencies to divide organized mass movements and derail them from their anticapitalist objectives, and that's why they must be actively confronted. That's not to say we mustn't confront racist, sexist, etc. strains of thought; what is to be confronted is this toxic victimization attitude that SJWs display, and the liberal ideas of "diversity for the sake of it" and "diversity within capitalist exploitaition".

What do you want to communicate with that post?

user pls

BLM isn't a serious threat to the system, just a constant nuisance. While they could help (or hinder) an OWS2, the conditions for a second OWS will occur again. We need to accept we need to take a risk and sitting outside Wall Street is not the same as occupying it.
Nobody here wants to do that. But getting everyone together, coming up with an incredibly complex list of demands for every minority and oppressed person, on top of those of average white working guys, then asking nicely for them is just fucking dumb and we've seen that. Did they even get past trying to list the grievances? We could risk some broken skulls and likely some deaths, but we could have it all. All we need to do is put aside our differences and when the time is right take over the stock exchanges and other centers of power with pure bloody minded disregard for ourselves.

Bottom left

In what way were Black and Hispanic communities alienated or obstructed from OWS?

IDPOL was already present at OWS and it didn't magically mobilize non-white communities, in fact it became central doctrine for a large bloc of protesters.

Furthermore OWS was a movement that sprung spontaneously in reaction to 2008, an event that universally affected the working class and drew together disparate elements that would never normally politically associate; Students and Urbanites, Vets and Rural. The universality of capitalism over the lives of workers is what forces solidarity, the entwined nature of our fate, not abstract moralism.

The ideas that you hold in your head are of no concern to anyone but your immediate social circle, it affects no change in society, expunging Holocausts does nothing to lift the status of anyone.

Identity politics does nothing but turn political energy away from structural focus and political arguments directed at concrete institutions and channels that energy toward targeting the individual, a pissant who is of no concern to anybody.

Not only that but it is entirely nebulous as to what liberals mean when they refer to their magic intersectional codex, they just throw out a vague concept like patriarchy and use it as an a-priori justification to think whatever they want often with zero explanation of how they shift from is to ought.

Identity Politics is just the nomenclature of contemporary cosmopolitans, it is a cultural manifestation of petite-bourgeois self-flagellating moralism and used to provide a cultural in group that feel superior to their plebeian peers.

My bad, haven't finished my coffee this morning.

t. Jason

A hell of a lot of people at the time did, and a hell of a lot of people now are acting like the end of OWS was the end of the world, and a blow from which we will never recover. And of course, it was the "evil idpol" that did it. Completely. All these stories about how the just and wonderful white man was smothered by the terrible cunt, and that's why OWS "failed". Personally, I don't think OWS did fail. I think OWS did what it was realistically going to do, given the time and place, and given the state of the left at that point.

You'd be surprised to find how many people on here seem to think "idpol" means "black people or women saying anything at all". Maybe you don't think that way, but there are obviously people here who do. Nothing will kill the left quicker than turning it into a boy's club for the 6-8 suburban whites who for whatever reason, are willing to support a revolution that would most likely lower their standard of living in the short run.

BLM killed cops and burned city blocks. OWS, outside of Oakland, seemed to be a drum circle and weed parade. The overall movement doesn't necessarily need to make a 1000 page list of demands for every single identity group, but it does need to acknowledge, in some way, that those issues do exist, and (this is the important part) explain how the overall anti-capitalist movement is going to solve those problems. If I'm watching my kids get shot and arrested for no good reason, I'm not going to care so much about you getting enough coffee breaks, or feeling "alienated" from your labor. We as anti-capitalists need to beat idpol by doing it better. We can't just tell black people and women to suck it up or fuck off.

The idpol of OWS mostly seemed to be focused on feminism, and whether that brought more women into the overall movement, is up for debate. Either way, Capitalism operates in a system of crisis, so yes, there will be another one, and probably soon. The best thing that we can do to fight the sort of "individualistic/progressive-stack" idpol that is destructive, is to push a more "capital-minded" interpretation of these issues.
So instead of having one big movement that largely ignores all of these disparate issues (that is vulnerable to indyidpol tactics), we have more focused, localized movements that come together when needed, because at the end of the day, they all see capitalism as the "big problem". This doesn't marginalize their issues, or put them under somebody else, but it also doesn't force the entire movement to be about them, and nothing else. It's a lot easier to convince a large group of black people to march for black rights and also'' against capitalism, than it is to get them (us) to march against capitalism, because a bunch of suburban white guys said that our issues will magically go away after "the revolution".

Black people are lumpenprole who dont care about revolution and just want a free flatscreen

You could try to be more subtle with your samefaggotry.
Now please fuck off.

Fuck off you dumb bitch.

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You aren't meant to admit you edited the image.

Oh, I'm sorry, do I need to remind you of

Yes I would be surprised. Because I believe you are talking out of your ass. But since you are an expert on this place, just tell me about your top five threads from last year.

Everyone is not autistic enough to memorize threads from years ago. Some of us do things outside of the internet.

It's like I'm really on reddit

MODS ARE FUCKING FAGGOTS

Go back.

You're the one who wants a circlejerk.

I know. A perfectly good discussion about leftist activism has been derailed into NIGGERS AND SLUTS by an idpol-spewing retard.

You have never made a good post. You are as thick as pig shit and the mod that cleared your reports is an equally stupid sack of shit.

for

cointelpro, progessive stack and related idpol, lack of any strategy whatsoever, no demands, anarkiddies.

watch hypernormalisation

The mods don't give a shit about enforcing any kind of standards of discussion here. It takes genuine hard work to get banned.

Funny thing, I haven't reported dick. I don't do that bullshit, because I'm not a fag. Maybe you're the one who sucks at posting.

Keep on calling me mean names, I'm sure it'll work one of these days.

This is probably what really did OWS in. The goal seemed to be "destroy the 1%" with no actual plan or idea as to how that was actually going to happen, or what was going to replace them. OWS probably could have gotten a higher minimum wage if they'd actually bothered asking for one.

We had one based mod that used to ban people posting COINTELPRO tier shit, now we just have some useless fuck that clears the reports.

t. NIGGERS AND SLUTS

Then the liberal NGO funding would dry up really fucking fast.

I was thinking more 9 or 10, even the most ardent "fight for 15" people acknowledge that it's a fight for 15. They're expecting 10, or maybe 12. I can imagine "higher minimum wage" is a hell of a lot more tenable than "eat the rich", though.

What would the result of a more "capital-minded" analysis of issues relating to identity reveal?

Ultimately that the current historical manifestations of oppression as it relates to identity spring from the underlying root organizational principles of society and thus can only be abolished when a radical restructuring takes place, anything less and you are building a house on sand so to speak. Their is a rich history of failure from the reformist left and we increasingly don't have the luxury of failure available to us.

This vanguardist / pop-front nonsense has never worked in abolishing capitalism and it will fail to do so again and again. The grassroots invariably gets coopted by COINTELPRO or just moronic social strivers and then you end up with the monstrosity that is the BLM leadership / manifesto. Pack all these groups together and they couldn't organize a pissup at the pub.

It is the working class ITSELF as a historical actor that negates capitalism; not vanguards, not student groups, not popfronts, not progressive / cultural Nationalists.

To quote Marx:

world history.

reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/5yy358/its_not_a_guarantee_university_degree_no_longer/

Look at how indoctrinated people are into believing the American Dream and capitalism.
You don't have a chance.

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Name three. How about that.

What he meant by that is: How can I be a cunt pretending to be on the left, but not too left, so my funding doesn't dry up. Gotta keep dat capital on my mind $_$

When people say, "The Revolution will solve racism/sexism/whateverism", the immediate question is "how?". The "capital-minded" analysis is the answer to that question. Without it, we will forever be vulnerable to the idpol opportunists making statements like the one in this pic.

Your basically just saying, "address someones concerns by advocating anti-capitalism in response to their subjective desires" (whatever and whoever they may be) which is exactly what Holla Forums wants.

The "Remove IDPOL" relates to people that call themselves leftists but do nothing but talk the lingo of university dipshits, the most anti-capitalism you'll get out of them is for cool kid points.

No one is saying "sperg out whenever a black person asks how anti-capitalism relates to anti-racism or talks about problems unique to them" in fact reorienting their attention to anti-capitalism is precisely the point. We however will never get to that point while we a mired in the language of neolibs and talks of muh privilege checking and other such nonsense, it doesn't even broach the topic.

even more than idpol, liberalism, insufficient radicality in ideas I think it was the fact that the occupiers did not have enough skin in the game. they had too much to lose and not enough to win.

humans are fundamentally animals and will not make revolution until it is time to save their own skins.