Is there any leftist ideology more retarded than Third Worldism?

Many could say the same thing about third worldism

Trotskyism

Basically. Turd Worldism will almost immediately turn into something ethnocentric, like Modi's regime in India or 4PT in Novorossiya. Jason Unruhe keeps pushing the idea of a "pan turd worldist" movement, which is completely infeasible.

Marxist Humanism and Titoism are objectively worse.

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To be fair wouldn't Bolivarianism be considered Third Worldist?

maiosts are not terrorists. the rest is correct

You're right. Maoists are most often angry kids or academics.

Third Worldism is blackpill as fuck.

Ask Roo.

turd worldism is just primitivism for marxists.

Yes. Mutualism, communization theory, autonomism, post-Marxism, and EuroCommunism are all equally bad or worse.

I don't think you can make fun of it without also calling out what it is based on: Lenin's shitty redefining of "anti-imperialism" and such. It's a cancerous growth on another cancerous growth, and we need to cut both out.

But no you're right third worldism is one of the most cancerous things there is.

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archive.is/PSZ82

Maoist Third-Worldists, Anarcho-Primitivists, NazBols, and Eco-Fascists should just form alliances with each other.

Third worldism is the only ideology possible, get it, WHITEY?

3rd worldism is a depopulation cult, its not a sincere attempt at reforming society. Its designed to kill a huge portion of the population so we can return to pre-industrial civilization

How about you read Bookchin and realize that Maoism is just idpol for the New Left

On posadism, would aliens coming to Earth really be socialist? or full communist? or would they be a grey nationalist imperialists disguised as socialists (nazbols in space)?

Good.

Hoxha didn't have much to go on and didn't possess that particular brand of glorious insanity Bolsheviks had. Only Cuba managed to endure through the second Revisionism.

No. Bolivarianism is SocDem.

Sauce?

ops, forgot my shitpost flag

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is juche even leftist ?

That depends on your definition of "Leftist". For example, was Sparta "Leftist"? Could "Leftism" exist in Antiquity or should it be only post-1789? If that's the case, was Cromwell Left? What about medieval cities?

I'd say, for a given value of Leftist, Juche might be considered Leftist. It is certainly an improvement over whatever mess they had before (Japan's colony and deeply xenophobic monarchy).

youtube.com/watch?v=jy1iudsIKa8

If people in the third world want to be third worldist its totally understandable. Even third worldist's like Jason Unrhue who approach things in a materialist way are alright. The worst are the "read settlers" type spooked PoC's and self-hating whites who just use third worldism as thin excuse to claim the white working class are inherently reactionary.

Was Moses "leftist" for his time?

What about Prophet Muhammad?

Third Worldism isn't materialist though and it's questionable if it's even Marxist.

Thirld-worldism gets a bad rap because many first-world proponents of it are just looking for a thin veneer for anti*white prejudice. They often view the white working class as inherently reactionary and are chicano/black ethno-nationalists. I don't really care about third worldists that live in developing countries or people like the rue. But the "read setllers whitey" types send me into a rage.

Your right I'm just trying to communicate that his idea's are based on some kind of logic beyond anti*white prejudice.

The "read Settlers" edgelord types *claim* their assertions are based in history though. Sultangaliyev may have been a religious nut but believed his anti-European sentiment was based in "historical materialism".

Go to the 9:50ish mark of this vid (she explains who pic related was):

Damn this shit is retarted it completely contradicts marxist theory. Basically just because we never had capitalist production we are automatically more authentic socialists. It totally ignores diamat and the idea of capitalism as a necessary historical stage.

Stalin definitely did some unjust purging but im glad he killed this spooked turkroach.

I mean, by that logic you could say the only people on earth with any revolutionary potential are indigenous tribal people in the Amazon and Micronesia who have barely mastered agriculture, much less complex modes of production.

Turd Worldism = utopian bullshit

Which ignores the fact that class struggle is constantly going on in both "worlds." Even lame-ass reformist movements like Occupy, BLM, Bernie 2016 and the rest were examples of that.

Forgot pics.

Roo might as well join DGR.

WTF am I reading?

It's bad but there are ideologies much, much worse.

You could look at it the opposite way: it's only because we've gone through capitalist production and had that bloody history of explicitly anti-capitalist struggle that we are more authentic socialists. 3rd worldists can't into history.

Well, Nazism was predicated on the idea that Germans and Nordics were originally Aryan gods or some shit. Zionism was predicated on the notion that all Jews everywhere held a specifically mythical essence hence why they deserved the Holy Land more than the Palestinians did. Turd Worldism and its aunt Green Anarchism seem to be based on the idea that black and brown people (especially Native Americans and Muslims) have a spiritual quality to them which makes them the only ones capable of being communists, unlike those disgusting indulgent settler whiteys.

i see her point, but its kinda messy and obsessive

didn't muslims owe half of the known world at some point, including part of Europe?

beside, muslim don't give a damn about communism, islam itself is a political and economical book

No thanks. Fuck ethnic nationalists.

christianity was just as political in most of europe until about 40 years ago but that didn't stop europeans from literally inventing modern socialism/communism

Yes, but most Muslims and "apologists" will claim the invasions were only done to spread religion (which in itself is colonial - this is the justification the Spanish used for colonizing the Americas) and the violence only came after the Byzantines and Persians resisted.

Agreed, but there's a reason why the first person to call himself an anarchist was a French guy of peasant background, and the first to come up with scientific socialism was a German Jew.

I refuse to believe this is real. There is NO WAY in hell someone can be this stupid.

Marx and Engels DO talk about primitive accumulation, you numbskull.

Try 200 years ago. Although it depends on the country. France is pretty anti-religious overall whereas the Catholic Church is still huge in Spain, Italy, and Poland.

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leninist BTFO

my point was that it's burger-tier to assume islam is somehow more pathological than other religions when even the MENA region had famrades before the anglosphere crushed them during the cold war.

Third worldism isn't leftist. It's reactionary nationalism that pretends to be leftist in order to gain popular support. Their grievances are legitimate though.

Sure but Islam itself isn't communist. Most of those famrades whom you speak of were killed by western-supported fundamentalists who, you know, actually adhere to their religious doctrine.

That's why I compare it to AnPrimm: indigenous peoples do have real grievances against whitey but what they're advocating is just as reactionary.

yeah but that's no different from how the vast majority of western reactionaries have strong religious ties

though this does mean turd worldism is even more shit

I don't see how comparing Islam to western Christianity necessarily vindicates it. If anything, showing the reactionary nature of Christian theocracy should make one hate Islamo-politics even more. Not to mention many of these Islamist groups, despite the support they used to get from the West to offset communists and seculars, do have a sizeable amount of popular support. Hamas and the Egyptian MB didn't seize power in a coup, both of them won power through popular elections. ISIL has no issue getting recruits from Muslim youth in diaspora ghettos. You'd think those angsty Moroccan and Algerian kids would just join their local labor union, huh?

when did i imply vindication? i was more implying that you don't have to be an MTW to endorse the idea that muslims may be more open to christians to leftist thought, for reasons unrelated to theology

On what basis though? Latin America is still extremely Catholic and yet most Latin American countries embraced socialism (or at least left-wing politics) before the Islamic World did. It's not like those SodaStream workers in Palestine rose up and took over their factories. Meanwhile, socialist Bolivia (one of the poorest countries on the planet) is flourishing.

Seems she's never skimmed Capital. Literally a quick Google would show that the first volume has 8 chapters on primitive accumulation, including colonisation.

Also, didn't Marx literally write for an abolitionist newspaper, and leave when they stopped being abolitionist?

bolivia is no more """socialist""" than venezuela, it doesn't get any shit because it didn't get rekt by the oil market. latin american leftism is just a tamer expression of the same anti-western populism that's driving muzzie conservatism in the middle east. at the end of the day they settle for the same status quo economic policy because they don't actually give a fuck

So what is it then? What quality about Muslims would drive them to take up socialism before anywhere in the Christian World? All you're doing is saying the socialist movements which exist in heavily Catholic Latin America aren't "real" socialism. I could make an identical argument and claim Ba'athism, Nasserism and Gaddafi's Green Book weren't "real" socialism either given that they were much more about Arab racial nationalism than achieving communism (plus Nasser and Gaddafi imprisoned actual communists).

Idk if she wants to be bourg, she seems pretty anti industrial civilization.

Do you know of any more digestible sources or writings on this, not necessarily Bookchin? Because he's dead right on this, but it's not really articulated very well in a way that can be used to convince other leftists how trash Maoism is…

Maosism and Third Worldism are different beasts though.

Third Worldism actually pre-dates Mao Zedong Thought by a few decades. Again, may I direct you to?:

i would agree, i am talking about grassroots attempts to revive old left politics in the islamic world. in muslims' case, modern support for islamic government originates mainly from misguided opposition to western imperialism, which the left could provide a much more productive outlet for; in comparison, most christians benefit from these western institutions keeping their beliefs politically relevant in their respective countries

keep in mind that these are obviously generalizations, i.e. burgers of any religion are still too spooked and pakis are pretty much insane at this point. it's also not related to turd worldism because much of the middle east is wealthy as fuck and already approaching the point of decay of capitalism

So Salvadoran peasants who happen to be devout Roman Catholics benefit from western imperialism just because they're Catholic?

It seems to me that you're equating: Christian = white/western; Muslim = brown. 10% of Egypt is Coptic, 20% of Palestinians are Christian (either RC or Greek/Syrian Orthodox), Syria is quite religiously diverse as is Lebanon. Iraq used to be home to one of the oldest Christian populations in the world until the aftermath of the 2003 invasion caused most of them to flee.

Also, Sub-Saharan Africa probably has more practicing Christians than Europe at this point.

We can also discuss Liberation Theology and how it had a profound effect in promoting socialist movements in South America about 40 years ago and even saw a revival with Bolivarianism.

Meanwhile, Islam itself hasn't produced any equivalent to LT. The closest thing to it are probably the writings of Ali Shariati, who was a SocDem at best.

Islam doesn't have a central authority like Christianity does with the pope, which means Muslims don't have anything to lean on when shit gets rough. That makes them more inclined to take up socialist politics since the party can act as a substitute.

Sort of? But at that point the terms become so convoluted they might as well be meaningless. It's best to keep left/right distinctions to post revolutionary france where they began.

to the ones without leftist convictions, yes, they do, because of the church's global political influence. religious rightists literally do not believe in materialism and that they are acting more in self-interest than the porky sinners because they are the ones that will be rewarded with eternal life or whatever. similarly, christian minorities in majority muslim places tend to have strong western inclinations because said western influence benefits them in the same vein.

removing religion from the top down is incredibly difficult; the tankies can attest. what is easy is letting it fade away once you've taken a different approach to convincing people that your ideas are correct, because the function of religion in the superstructure will gradually become obsolete.

liberation theology is also considered straight up heresy by most sects of christianity.

Nonsense. Islam doesn't have a central authority but it has a plethora of little authorities who can be equally tyrannical.

Likewise, Judaism lacks a pope-figure and most orthodox sects are decentralized, yet the most batshit insane religious Zionists almost always come out of the sects which lack a central authority figure or whose central authority has since passed away without a successor (Chabad, for instance).

This isn't unique to Christianity. Muslims generally believe in the exact same thing, that being good and pious, wearing hijab, abstaining from premarital sex and alcohol, and agreeing to WORK entail 72 virgins in the afterlife. Wait a minute - Islam promotes work? You bet, and there are even rules for how to treat your wage slave.

LOL. Is that why a Greek Orthodox Christian started the PFLP, and the majority of Syrian Christians are overwhelmingly pro-Assad? The Lebanese Phalangists are hardly representative of Arab Christians as a whole. Most Coptic Egyptians in the US are pro-western imperialism simply because they have vendettas but generally speaking Arab Christians are pretty far to the left.

What about sheikh bedreddin?

The idea that the quran promotes capitalism is quite a stretch

And they're also overwhelmingly pro-Trump, even though it's against their own interests. They're total memes, whose politics literally only consist of anti-Islam even if it goes against their interest.

And you're deluding yourself if you think they give a fuck about leftism and socialism, or even think about economic systems at large. They believe in the status quo just like 99% of proles on this fucking planet. That's not meant to be an insult to them, but just a simple fact/reminder that nobody gives a fuck about these things. So for you and to bicker over who is more leftist is seriously peak autism. Nobody in the real world is left - at most suckdem.

No offense to though. Just thought that the dispute between you two is sorta silly.

Christianity also calls for tithing. Of course Islam doesn't call for "capitalism" as the religion was established centuries before capitalism. But it certainly doesn't promote communism either, and we've never had a communist Islamic theology.

My original argument is that it's foolish to think the Muslim World will go socialist before anywhere else, or to equate western Christians with all Christians.

way to read the rest of the sentence, retard.

wow, it's almost as if real world politics are more than red-vs-blue. christian syrians are pro-assad because he is a secularist and still see the islamists as being far worse than the westerners, and people who have political views because of personal vendettas are not exactly unusual.

Comrade, where are these screenshots from?

Well it doesn't really support your point that the Islamic World has a better chance of going socialist, especially when we still see very little left-wing activity in that region aside from Rojava.

Those verses go quite a bit further than tithing.

Anyway, the point isn't what "true islam" preaches or promotes. The idea is to demonstrate that there are aspects of the religion workable towards the goal of socialism, so constructing a socialist islamic ideology is possible.

I forget where, I saved them ages ago.

…but Rojava is pretty much the only leftist movement in the world right now, unless you're going to count suckdems.

I'm more interested in what we're actually seeing though. All of the Abrahamic religions have laws against excessive wealth hoarding, so the claim that "wealth accumulation is evil" isn't something unique to Islamic doctrine. Also, if Muslims truly did believe their religion promoted a socialist politic, then Islamic socialism is what they'd be fighting for, which the bulk of them are not.

Zapatistas?

Naxals?

Greek anarchists?

Fully agree. Both of these religions came about long before capitalism (and by consequence, long before communist movements). Obviously, they don't "promote communism". That's not possible, and is as nonsensical as saying they "promote the Democratic party". However, they're both very amenable to communism, and there is no need for a conflict.

The RT 1917 larper account posted this today, and I found it sorta interesting: twitter.com/RT_1917/status/840619580787687424

wasted potential is still potential, and while not quite socialists, the western kurds are still pretty based.

Well we didn't see anything like suicide bombing from muslims or anything close to it until Khomeini and then later sunni clerics literally memed it into existence out of nothing but political ambition and mental gymnastics. The truth is the lack of central authority in islam is its strength and weakness at different times. All it would take is one religious figure in a muslim country with interest in socialism to push hard enough and it's a thing. Problem is that the KSA has active interest in stopping it from happening so actively promotes it's wahhabist schools and persecutes others.

I guess, though the comparison just highlights how weak these other groups are in their respective regions.

Fascinating. I didn't know too much about Russian Orthodoxy and sort of wrote it off as super reactionary based on my experience with Greek Orthodoxy.

What is third worldism? Is it recognizing the fact that the working class is starting to die out in the First world and that everyone except for the Bourgeoisie in the first world is slowly becoming strictly consumerist cattle?

And Latin America doesn't have potential? There's probably more support for left-wing politics in any Latin American country (aside from Chile and Paraguay) than there is in any Muslim-majority country.

Sure, but how many of the little religious authorities in the Muslim World are willing to do that? Again, we have never really seen an Islamic liberation theology as we have seen with radical Christian movements. Oh hell, even Judaism produced some proto or semi-socialist movements. No one with half a brain thinks suicide bombings are an "Islamic" thing since Islamic Law doesn't even allow offensive jihad unless a legitimate Islamic state exists.

Turd Worldism claims class struggle no longer exists in the western world since all western workers benefit from net exploitation of the Third World.

maybe some, but the middle east has yet to fall into the trap of liberalism, which is the fate of most modern left politics.

Plenty, actually. The problem is that with US satellites like Saudi Arabia actively working to purge the theologians who trend in that direction. That's why getting the US out of the region is so important, or at least part of the reason.

Well, if you go to the West Bank you'll see most Palestinians there are extremely modernized. Despite wanting the occupation/apartheid system to end they generally have very little interest in communism. PFLP just isn't what it once was and it's doubtful it can be revived (or should be revived).

Any evidence for this?

Sadly I wish I had statistics and reports of liberation-focused islamic theologians I can only speak to personal experience and anecdotal evidence. Most I can say is that if there is going to be a widespread movement like this though it would most likely be sufi.

i don't really care for trying to appeal to islam itself, but i have noticed that in the US, any retard can be called an expert on islam if it's convenient to imperialism, i.e. the lardass that runs jihadwatch. so political bias among scholars is probably rampant.

fine with me, the israel-palestine problem has become such a convoluted mess that not even the neoliberals want much to do with it. the extreme religious and political significance of the parts of the area significant to abrahamic faith make it untouchable

There's your problem. Sufis are considered heretics by most Muslims and are heavily persecuted in places like Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, etc. I agree with you that any Islamic LT would have to be Sufi or free-form like Alevism, but I still have my doubts that it would be enough to trigger socialist revolution.

To be honest, I think the left itself is losing interest in Palestine, and I hypothesize it has everything to do with Rojava. It's not that some Kurdish factions are willingly taking guns from Israel (after all, they need all the help they can get during a fucking war), but that their relative success in planting the seeds of socialism with the few resources they have all while being a population under military occupation has made a lot of leftists skeptical about Palestine. Again, those SodaStream workers didn't rise up and seize the factories after the company fired them, nor has Hamas abolished private property and instituted socialized ownership in Gaza. Why haven't the Palestinians been able to create anything leftist when the overwhelming amount of grassroots support their liberation struggle gets comes from leftists? At this point, lefties have much more at stake in Kurdistan where comrades are actually fighting for genuine socialism.

Yeah no doubt it's nothing we'd see come easily, but I'm saying the reason they're considered heretics in the first place in those countries is because those countries' leaders and their western allies have a vested interest in it.

Yeah, it definitely struck me, and I'm interested in studying further how they interacted with the rising communist movement.

No offense, but you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Not everything is a conspiracy by the west. A lot of anti-Sufi sentiment existed long before the west started tampering in the ME.

I DO NOT SUPPORT PODESTA, NOR HILLARY, NOR CLINTONS, NOR ANY OF THOSE CUCKS

The comparison between Palestine and Rojava isn't exactly fair. Palestinians have a much better organized and unified opposition, and much less opportunity than the Kurds to appeal for outside assistance, western or otherwise. The only reason Rojava gets any support is that it's mutually beneficial to western powers, and the Palestinians don't have that luck.

I highly doubt ANY socialist state in a region as contested as the ME would be in the interest of the west.

I don't believe it's all a conspiracy. I'm just saying that the particularly virulent strains became worse and the oppression of the emancipatory strains (which will by definition naturally always be opposed by established power systems) became worse as well in the last century of meddling.

Which is why you're either going to see Rojava thrown under the bus by the US or massive revisionism the second it's not of use to them anymore. The best hope for Rojava is that they manage to play enough sides long enough to establish themselves enough to sustain before this can happen.

To be fair, leftists will most likely throw Palestine under the bus when it becomes blatantly obvious the Palestinian national bourgeoisie will be the ones leading the struggle, and that heavily sought-after One Democratic State(TM) will become just another neoliberal pawn.

Definitely. Traditional Islamic scholarship has always been closely linked to Sufism, or at least amicable to it. Even Ibn Taymiyyah (who is revered by modern-day Salafis, as well as most Sunnis) was a Sufi (he was part of the Qadiriyya order).

The issue has been meddling. Neocon bullshit like RAND striving its hardest to divide American Muslims, between Sufi and Salafi, has been a cancer. And without a doubt, it's the same sort of methodology employed by the KSA, USA, etc.

The Middle East is going to be the graveyard of the 21st Century left with all the fighting over which sect of Arab nationalists to support.

protip: They will just implement capitalism

What she says at the end about M3W being "post Marxist" is correct. We only have Laclau and Mouffe to blame for Unruhe.