So I just read an interesting article about this book called the Invisible Hook, which apparently explains how Pirates basically did modern workplace democracy hundreds of years before it was fashionable and its apparently one of the reasons why they were so successful during the times they were still at large.
workplacedemocracy.com
Thoughts?
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SEAFARING ANARCHISM
I don't buy the anarchist pirate tales. Ships are places of strict hierarchy and discipline, it's a necessity, I can't see why pirate ships would be any different in this.
Well of course under battle conditions the captain's orders are laws but outside of that they could be replaced at any time by a majority vote from the rest of the crew, the same applied to the quartermaster.
This was in stark contrast to navy and merchant ships of the time which were operated under strict hierarchies at all times.
what?
I told you dog
Piracy was anarchism praxis
Except for the fact that the sailors could kill the captain at any moment
Read "villains of all nations" it is a full historical account of this
Because most pirates were ex navy and forced to be navy, so they completely rejected naval values, despite being accomplished military seamen
Shyet, I was gonna start a pirate thread here on Holla Forums. You beat me to it, OP.
But yeah, pirates were basically the first humans in history to ever get democracy right. I've always fucking loved pirates, especially since they're symbolic for freespirited rebellion against tyrannical rule, i.e. the monarchies which controlled the seas back in the day.
Plus, the original Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy is pure kino, especially At World's End. On Stranger Tides was disappointing, but manages to hold up well enough in its comedy. Can't fucking wait for Dead Men Tell No Tales.
On a king's ship yeah, where you basically have a bunch of normal people impressed as slaves to work for the state whether or not they liked it.
Especially on ships, skilled labor is at maximum premium. Even common sailors have specialized knowledge and if a captain can't keep them then the ship is fucked. This is why state ships like the British Royal Navy rely on strict, totalitarian discipline, because the pay is shit, the food is shit, and every day is long hours and hard work under a bunch of wealthy aristocrats who have essentially unlimited power over you.
On pirate ships, the sailors were there by choice more often than not, because these strict rules weren't in place. You got better treatment, better pay, and better conditions, and if you were really lucky and managed to capture a rich trading ship, you could be set up for life after only a couple years of work.
Also if anyone's interested in relatively accurate age-of-sail fiction, Patrick O'Brian's Master and Commander series is fantastic. It's some of the most comfy fiction you'll ever read. It's set during the Napoleonic Wars (more or less) and has lots of great characters and engrossing narratives. Though in my experience I found the first book to be a bit of a slog. O'Brian prides his prose on exacting detail to naval history, and if you aren't at least passingly familiar with some of the terms or in a place where you can readily look them up your eyes might glaze over as he describes every plank and pulley. From the second book on the passages describing naval minutia aren't so cumbersome though, and you'll find yourself longing for a life at sea.
What about contemporary Somalian pirates?
Inb4 a retarded marxist/leftcom claims this is still exploitative because they still had to raid ships
Theme of this thread
it was a really exaggerated kids' flick
Well, I'm sorry I don't wanna be enslaved to a fate of constantly raiding ships to survive.
As a pirate you typically sign a contract that clearly outlines your role and responsibilities as well as your share of captured wealth, typically with clauses for cashing out early and/or bonuses. This was especially true for privateers who functioned as semi-government sanctioned pirates.
fukkin' anti-pirate propaganda
Spanish Ladies is better
Bruh, what did you expect? It's Disney, they gotta make even their PG-13 films friendly enough. Besides, kids' films can be awesome too, and the Pirates trilogy kicks so much ass.
Mah nigga
The first one is good because it captures the feeling of a world that's not fully explored yet and where people could honestly believe in Aztec curses and ghost stories. The second one and especailly the third turn it into really fucking weird high fantasy that wasn't even remotely suggested by the first one. The series went from a fairly grounded character driven comic adventure with spoopy elements to Looney Tunes meets Lovecraft. For fuck's sake the climax of 3 is a broadside battle on opposite sides of a maelstrom that includes Will and Elizabeth (recently elected King of the pirates) getting married by Barbossa in the middle of slicing up men who are half sea creature.
Are you trying to tell me that the abuse flung onto underlings in Pirates of the Caribbean wasn't actually accurate?
No the claim would be that it's still exploitative because pirates have to compete with other pirates and thus they have to exploit themselves in a race to the bottom.
Yeah
As relatively egalitarian as conditions might have been on board a pirate ship, its still a winner-take-all system of material exploitation and wealth extraction.
I fucking KNEW this flag was good for market socialism!
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I know! Isn't it awesome?
Do you reckon pirate posting can be Holla Forums's counter to Holla Forumss larping as Crusaders shouting DEUS VAULT?
Seems fitting
Yes please
Seems fitting that right wingers accuse us of stealing memes.
Also suits illegalists.
Catch Phrases "AVAST YE"
Heh, that'd be pretty funny
Imma running a TT RPG for two of my bros that's gonna involve pirates. One is a lefty too. DON'T YOU FUCKING META GAME IF YOU SEE THIS THREAD, YOU PIECE OF SHIT.
I want this so bad
Here's a start dedicated to the pirate posters
I made this for you
You're fast with that shit bro
Really? huh…
Is Alestorm too edgy for this thread?
Not a chance. m8ie.
I guess it was a mistake to think that Holla Forums could have a serious discussion about this topic.
Oh well, at least it resulted in some dank new memery.
And, so were the Cossacks, Boers, early medieval guilds, and basically every full-on republic before the 18th century.
"Representative Democracy" was non-existent until Britain invented the Parliament and didn't fully form until the 18th century as a concept of government.
The word you're looking for is mannerbund
A Y E A Y E , C O M R A D E
What about the rape and killing?
YARGH COMRADE
More like proto-capitalism ammirite, you statist fuck?
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just try it and we'll start a mutiny
The Irish always had good songs tbh
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Hush, you're ruining the nonsensical Pirates of The Caribbean style fantasy all the 14 year old anarchists have in thier mind.
Dropped like 17th century merchant captain.
Open an anthropology book about piracy anytime
you can kill your boss too at any movement so i guess we already live in the anarchist paradise
Being that piracy was inherently outside the bounds of the law, the only possible consequences to doing so is whatever the sailors who disagree with killing the captain could bring about. Plus there was nobody to uphold property rights and pass on the ship to the pirate's next of kin.
It depends on what you mean by piracy. Privateers were technically pirates, but protected from summary execution by a letter of marque (which Ron Paul wants to bring back el oh el).
On a privateer the captain is likely an employee as well, of whoever bought and outfitted the ship. Often it would be a collection of merchants looking to cut into their foreign competition.
No, this is your proto-coop: en.wikipedia.org
So nah, pirate ships are more like proto-illegalism, which is by definition built upon a pillar of legalist capitalism. You should envy primitive accumulatory cooperatives more than that tbh; comes much closer to every market "anarchist" or "socialist" and their delusions.
my point was this, If the mutiny fails the captain would kill the purpotraitors.
So the same argument made for Pirates being anarchists because the crew could overthrow/kill the captain could for example be applied to pretty much any state
>en.wikipedia.org
Holy shit I never knew their origins were this porky.
Not the first actually. Democracy existed since the beginning of the human race.
Bump.
Democracy was first invented by the Greeks, but it was arguably quite bourgeois in its conception, since only landowning, non-slave males counted as equal citizens. Democracy aboard Caribbean pirate crews was the first example of legitimately equal democracy.
Gabriel Kuhn wrote a book-length study of the relationship of pirates to Anarchism, called "Life Under the Jolly Roger". It's a bit lifestylist, but is a historically good study and I'd recommend reading it if this interests you.
Almost all males, except for slaves and foreigners, owned land in Athens. Stop applying modern concepts to agrarian times.
The foreigners were citizens of the cities where they/their ancestors came from.
In fact, Athens's democracy was oddly enough based on the military service of poor citizens as naval rowers, which gave them disproportionate power despite not being able to afford weaponry and armor.
