Tfw no revolutionary movement for you to dedicate all your sad pathetic life to

How many times will you get owned on this very topic and this very angle until you stop

watch out for this dangerous revolutionary!

I agree. They should stop accepting foreign help, including from Russia.
They should just lay down their weapons and enjoy seeing their women and children raped by ISIS and Turkish supported "moderates".

Then when they're transported to the mass graves, and right before some jihadist puts a bullet in the back of their skulls, they will realise:

They might have lost.

But at least they weren't "imperialists". :^)

Rojava is dealing with a lot less than the Bolshevists or Catalonians ever had to deal with.

If you know of a better way to remedy an existential crisis, I'm all ears.

thank you based uncle sam

Do you have an actual argument against what they're doing, because all I'm seeing is "Rojava is bad because they accepted ammunition and some armored vehicles from the US."

In international politics the enemy of your enemy can be your friend. Just like the Soviet Union and China accepted US lend lease in their fight against the nazis and Japan.

But I guess they were also just "imperialists", and you would rather have both countries overrun and their populations slaughtered.

Take this time to prepare, the day will come one day.

Oh by the way. The US is assisting Assad now with airstrikes like they did in Palmyra, and Russia and Iran have also provided Rojava with aid.

But I guess that makes all sides imperialists.

Gonna be honest, a good deal of what's stopping me isn't even fear of combat, not because I'm particularly brave but because I don't have much will to live. A bigger obstacle is the language. I never liked learning languages, let alone one that had nothing in common with mine, let alone one I'll likely never use again.

The united states have never been anything other than hostile towards socialism. They will never, and have never, aided in its construction, only its destruction. Right now, Rojava are aided by the US, because they are helping to destroy the partially socialized Syrian state.

Do you never find yourself questioning the motive of the US? The question isn't "why are the YPG accepting American arms?" it's "why are the US giving arms to them?".

kek, been reading the Washington Post have you mr. socialist?

And right now ISIS is considered a greater enemy. If the US really wanted to crush socialism and destroy Syria they would give the gulf states and Turkey a carte blanche to support ISIS and the other "moderates".

So was the Soviet Union. But I guess that just makes them imperialists. I suppose it would have been better if they had lost, their country - and the rest of europe - occupied, and up to a hundred million of their people slaughtered under Generalplan Ost.

Haha holy fuck you're serious.

Baathist Syria was and still is a predominantly state capitalist welfare state. Are you seriously saying that's more socialist than a society of worker coops, local councils and a democratically managed army?

What is your point? Are you just going to dodge around the issue now that you've been consistently BTFO?

...

I disagree. Better to try to make a change than to make peace and live a lie

Fuck your mother. Literally everything you said is retarded. I thought leftist were supposed to be educated and not spew preconcieved assumptions?

You're a fucking idiot if you actually believe this. Where do you think "ISIS" came from?
The United States at that time was engaged in total war against a great power, and was not the same imperialist interventionist nation it is today. Circumstances have changed somewhat, no?
You realise that none of this exists right? It's a war economy that will never achieve socialism as long as they are puppets of America.
lol

Maybe you haven't noticed, but we just had an election that ended up with more pro-Russian anti-ISIS people in charge. Unless I guess Trump and his team support ISIS now?

Was ISIS a creation of the west and the gulf states? Definitely. But the beast has since grown out of control.
I also don't see how this proves that Rojava isn't socialist? Are you going to claim they haven't been fighting ISIS?

We're hitting revisionism levels previously held unimaginable.

The US right now is supporting both the SDF/YPG and even Assad against ISIS. Is Assad an imperialist now?

archive.is/La8Fr

Okay. I'll just take your word on it, over, you know, everyone else.

why am i supposed to respect your opinion on anything again?
ISIS fight with american weapons funded by trade with american proxies Turkey and GCC. They are an american proxy group who's goal is the same as every other American proxy group in the area (Israel, Rojava, Turkey etc.) - the dismemberment of the Syrian state.

Read what I wrote. I never denied that they were imperialist. I denied that they were the same imperialist interventionist state that they are today. Most Americans were happy to ignore the rise of fascism and socialism in Europe, and this was reflected in their policies, colonies or no.

wew. Are you seriously denying that the main policy of the US in the region for the past 10+ years has been the destruction of Syria. You think that changes because of a couple of airstrikes (when they are still arming and funding groups that hold swathes of the nation hostage)

...

now this is next level shitposting

You would be grouped with other English-speakers.

Do you want me to give non-mainstream sources? I can get you one from Russia Today if you want. Unless that's too mainstream for you.

archive.is/3OLe3

If that's the goal, why didn't they just let ISIS crush Rojava? They've been a pain in ISIS side for years now. What about Kobane? Was the US dismembering Syria by supporting the YPG with airstrikes?

Bwahaha have you read about the history of the Rojava revolution, how the self-organization started years before the civil war and how it dates back to the Qamishli revolt?

I'm not denying that they wanted to destroy Syria, but the situation has changed. ISIS has gotten out of control and is a threat to everyone. They're an apocalyptic salafist cancer that want to usher in the the end of the world and are looking to procure biological weapons. Even Russia and Iran are supporting the YPG right now. Are they too in on destroying Syria?

You also keep shifting the goalpost or ignore points altogether. US supported syrian forces at Palmyra? Say it's false. Get proven wrong? Say it's mainstream sources. Get pointed out others have covered it as well? Say it's only Palmyra, etc.

The million dollar question however remains: If the goal was to use ISIS to destroy Syria, why did they support the YPG and take the wind out of their momentum? They could have let ISIS overrun Kobane, and then Hasakah and Qamishli. Without that distraction ISIS could have overrun Aleppo.

they've also been supporting SAA with airstrikes around Deir Ezzor

it's clear the US' policy of overthrowing Assad has failed and they've accepted that, and now their efforts have shifted to cleaning up their mess and destroying ISIS

What a fucking disgusting statement that is.

how is it disgusting

What am I supposed to be looking for? As far as I can tell that source is totally unrelated.

THE GOAL IS DESTROYING SYRIA.
Get that through your head. The US does not care one bit who does it. "moderate" jihadists, ISIS, Rojava, the end result is the same. They want to destroy Syria because their partially socialized system is insulated from IMF loans, shock therapy and global corporations, and is within the sphere of Iran and Russia.

What a joke, you sound like a Holla Forumstard with that apocalyptic shite. The idea that ISIS pose a threat to Europe, let alone the US is laughable.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2016_Deir_ez-Zor_air_raid

twitter.com/Syria_Protector/status/711995676775858176

twitter.com/EjmAlrai/status/659976504990937088

twitter.com/EjmAlrai/status/662295603196612608

Ahh yes, Assad the anti capitalist neoliberal

If it's all the same to you then why is support of Rojava specifically bad? Or can only the SAA faction possibly rejoin Syria?

This obsession with balkanization when it's clear basically every faction in the conflict is looking forward to a re-unified Syria seems strange.

Fucking lol. "The hour long series of 37 airstrikes which killed 100 soldiers of the nation we have been attacking for five years was just friendly fire! it's just coincidence that this attack allowed american proxy forces to advance!"
Unbelievable levels of self-delusion on show here.

I didn't mention Assad you fucking clown, that was you. As your ilk always do, slavishly following the state department "evil Assad" line.

So again. If the goal was to destroy Syria by any means necessary, why shoot themselves in the foot? It's not like ISIS had already won and needed to be further balkanized. You keep ignoring this.

So they support a faction that banned rentier capitalism, doesn't accept foreign investment or ownership of Syria's resources?
You don't have to explain the reasons. But Rojava doesn't stand for that stuff either, and they don't even have the financial infrastructure to accept such measures.

Yeah, but Iran and Russia are supporting the YPG now and they even wanted to include them in the peace process. I guess they're both in on the whole IMF conspiracy?

Do you know what these people actually believe in? Ever studied Islam and the particular slice of insanity ISIS represents?

They pose a threat to the region and have created a massive refugee crisis. That's definitely threat.

It's not "specifically bad", it's just as bad as supporting the "rebels" or ISIS. The difference is that "Rojava" has been dressed up in these "leftist" anti-imperialist colours that it has done nothing to deserve and a lot of useful idiots are physically aiding them when they already receive help from the largest empire in the world.

The Baath party is subservient to Assad, and Syria is subservient to the Baath party (or was, ha). The very "partially socialised" system you're talking about was in the process of being dismantled by Assad prior to the war. These things are very much intertwined retard. And guess who Bashar was selling his country out to btw? Well it was good old Turkey and the Gulf countries, best allies and all that.

tankie tier

Are you joking or is that actually your response? Do you really think that physical threat to the west scales with belief, like if they just hate non-Muslims hard enough it'll make them more dangerous?

I'm not sure how but every side of the debate in this thread have managed to be drooling idiots.

What is that supposed to mean? You realise that the US directly or indirectly support every force in the region apart from the SAA right? The fact that two of their proxies are fighting each other doesn't represent some sort of immense contradiction.
comparing Russian "support" of the YPG to American support is silly. Also I'm not a "supporter of Russia" and they've made it quite clear a number of times that they have a "federalized" (balkanized) vision of Syria's future. Oh and by the way inb4 "then you support another group that receives support from imperialists!". I support the only legitimate government of the country that has repeatadly pledged its goal to reunite the nation.

Mate I want to establish worldwide communism, that doesn't mean its going to happen.
You're thinking of the USA, the UK, France and the GCC

Lol being this positivist

Yes, it's all down to the great demon Assad himself. Just ignore the lived experiences of the Syrian masses, the free universal healthcare they enjoy, their free education etc etc.
Be great if western "leftists" could focus on securing some of these freedoms for their own country before condemning another nation with a far more socialized economy than you enjoy.

If the coalition wanted they could have wiped SAA off the map, and in far

damn that's the typically Assadboo spook we all know and love

just missing SECULAR and SOVEREIGN there fam and you've completed the word bingo

Ok then "a force represented by Assad but not Assad himself" was causing the "socialized" system to be massively privatized and dismantled. Idk what the fuck you think great man theory has to do with recognizing that fact.

congrats, you've identified the structure of my argument and the fact it is often repeated by people of a like mind. now try engaging with it.

You understand that they have been suffering total war that has lasted longer than WW2 and they still have universal healthcare, free education, state owned industry etc.?

That's not the argument I made and you betray the fragility of your point by framing it as such. Invoking great man theory was the biggest rhetorical stretch I've seen in this thread

Who btw legalized private banking and allowed international banks to operate in Syria.
#Socialism

This isn't leftist/socialist to you?

So the fact that the US would be shooting themselves in the foot by supporting both sides, especially one that has had little conflict with the Syrian government, is irrelevant and doesn't represent a contradiction?

The Syrian government retreated it's troops and left the Kurds to the wolves. It's perfectly understandable from a military point of view, but they still abandoned those people. Instead of being overrun they managed to resist ISIS and have now liberated many of its core territories.

I guess that makes the Baath government legitimate, and Rojava illegitimate?

Also: Oh god you're literally Phil Greaves.

I guess you haven't.

ISIS is a threat to everyone in the region because nothing can coexist alongside it. They will only ravage, backstab their supporters and send waves of refugees everywhere.
Whether you live nextdoor or thousands of miles away: They are a threat as long as they remain on this planet.

They were the instigators. But at this point the cancer is able to sustain itself.

Fuck off you can't be that dumb
That was clearly the implication of your argument: "the syrian state is not deserving of solidarity or support against imperial aggression because they have instituted moderate neoliberal reforms!"
And as I've highlighted, their economy is far more socialized than yours and the people enjoy more freedoms, so I'm not sure why you think you're in a position to criticise.

Socdem tier argument. I bet you ridicule those who claim Sweden is socialist, but yet you'll shout from the rooftop's about the same shit when Syria does it. Baathism is just socdem with a police state and mass torture at the end of the day.

The bougie Alawite Syrians you retweet on twitter aren't representative of the whole of Syria btw. There's a fucking reason there was a revolution.

Also:

Top lel

Btw the whole welfare state was the reason that internal enemies were able to proliferate.
The Baathist social policies made Syria vulnerable to intervention by outsiders.

Except they do support both sides, so it clearly isn't a critical contradiction? Is it impossible that the YPG have been fighting US proxies Turkey in recent days? No, it happened and the evidence is clear to see. The US is not "shooting itself in the foot" when they control all the pieces are they?

I'm a different person than the person making the original argument, but your response was too bad to ignore. Yes, a leader can make decisions about his country. Saying that Assad made decisions leading to privatization is not "great man theory" you dip.

Sweden isn't being invaded by imperialists trying to dismantle their healthcare and education systems is it? Because if it was I would support them in their struggle. It doesn't make me a supporter of the Labour party if I resist Tory cuts to the NHS does it? Fucking idiot.

Why are tankies so schizo?

Whatever you say.

YPG are socialists, they oppose ISIS, they want a unified Syria and they're prepared to cooperate with the Baath government.
What is wrong with supporting them?

You think Syria is deserving of destruction because it is evil. It is evil because Assad is evil. Assad is evil because the media told you so. Could you name the leaders of Ahrar al Sham or the "FSA" without the help of google? I'm guessing not.

It's really hilarious how Syria is defending against savage imperial assault and you look at 10 year old economic policies and decide they are not worthy of your all important support.

It's just Socdems. We have the same shit in 1919.

Neh.

Already wrong, moralizing faggot. I think the destruction of capitalist regimes is necessary, and that conflict is necessary

Why are libsocs so schizo?

Except it's possible to both support socialism in Rojava and the Baathists in their struggle against insane Jihadi imperialists.
I don't see why those two can't get along.

You find it so unbelievable that Turkey were fighting YPG the other day? Are you going to deny that happened? I would be surprised to hear that from such an expert on the region.

The revolution didn't start with US aid, that came later, same with the Russian and Iranian aid.

It's always a riot when someone doesn't understand the person they're arguing against so fundamentally. But I guess those projections aren't going to project themselves, crypto-lib

Both are equally socialist - 0%.

sorry if i didn't correctly identify your meme ideology subscribed to by 10 people on Holla Forums

Lmao what? How does YPG fighting Turkey have to do with anything?

On the contrary, I acknowledge it happened.
I just don't see why they would support Rojava in any form if the goal was to utterly destroy Syria. There are easier solutions for that.

Why support the side that wants a unified Syria and has seen little conflict with the government? Why support the one side that has been instrumental in keeping ISIS in check and preventing it from overrunning the rest of Syria?
How did US airstrikes in Kobane aid in the destruction of Syria? If you want to destroy Syria you don't need Rojava.

Yeah I figured you probably wouldn't recognize an actual communist

Bordiga go home. We're actually trying to accomplish something here.

Because if the jihadists meet their end, the YPG will not simply put down their arms. They will make demands of the Syrian state, most likely federalism. The bargaining position from which they will make these demands (holding vast swathes of Syrian land and population) have been won with the aid of US imperialism.
The US is giving said aid with the end just described, bargaining against the Syrian state. I reject all such attempts by foreign powers to meddle in affairs that belong to Syrians.

ah, a leftcom.

also let it be clear that the pentagon and the CIA pursue different policies in Syria

the CIA were very much all in with the rebels and set up the train and equip program

the pentagon has been concentrating on how to destroy ISIS

this has led to events where CIA backed rebels fight pentagon backed rebels

Assad wouldn't even grant Syrian Kurds citizenship and rendered them stateless. Any organisation of Kurds politically or culturally resulted in a bout of torturing and in many cases murder in a Mukhabarat prison. Why shouldn't they make demands? Why should they trust a regime that treated them like subhumans in the past?

Lol no, since when were leftcoms pro-Rojava? I sincerely hope your buttbuddy Assad is taken down by local warlords just so that Rojava and his province can't settle into some comfortable agreement. Continuing conflict is necessary everywhere, and fighting for old status quo regimes is untenable for anyone who is looking to see serious global change.

And they shouldn't. The working class should remain armed. Read Marx.

They want to continue their socialist initiatives: Local management and worker ownership of the means of production without interference from Damascus. What is bad about that?

The Soviet Union won WW2 with the aid of the imperialist US. I guess the Nazis should have won and wiped them out. Illegitimate gains and all that.

And yet that still doesn't answer the question: Why do this at all when they could just have used ISIS exclusively to destroy Syria? No need for bargaining positions if the whole country is send back to the stone age.

you sure sound like a leftcom

their arms given to them by the US specifically so they can make demands of the state.
already explained why that analogy isn't appropriate. the US had already invaded the USSR at that point and spent next 45 years trying to destroy them. some difference to the entity which they essentially created. (muh revolution would be non-existant right now without US aid)
As I understand, the argument you are trying to make here is that the US is not trying to destroy Syria, am I correct? So you think they are kindly benefactors helping to create socialism in the Middle East. This would be typical of the idealism displayed by most supporters of the YPG.

how about no

And in this case, why is it bad? The democratic confederalist experiment must survive. Furthermore, the worker's should always be armed, regardless of whether they can use those arms to enforce demands. If this is a problem then the Baath government should do the right thing and enshrine the right to bear arms in the Syrian constitution.

Turkey is a US ally and has bombed the YPG. ISIS has been the main adversary of the YPG.
I know the deep state is trying to use the YPG, but it's not going to work out. The YPG needs the Syrian State to survive and visa versa.
In fact, when it became evident the YPG wasn't going to oust Assad their aid was reduced, John Kerry told them to rereat and we got the Turkish supported "moderates" to intervene.

Notice how when the SDF/YPG are about to attack Raqqa they suddenly get attacked by the Turks? It's only after Trump was elected that significant aid was again resumed.

No. It's obvious that the American deep state, Israel, Erdogan, MI6, the IMF and the gulf states are trying to destabilize, balkanize and destroy Syria.

It's also clear that the deep state wants to eventually use the YPG against the Syrian government. But spokespeople of the PYD have repeatedly stated they will not divide Syria, that toppling Assad is not on the table and they even took actions to preemptively ban globalist trickery such the IMF: Resources are owned by local communities and international corporations are not welcome.

In the latter case that's a lot more than the Baath government has done, which was invite the international banking community with open arms, only to be stabbed in the back later (never give in even an inch).

No. I'm not naïve. The US has historically supported all sorts of movements, from fascists to Jihadists, even the genocidal madness of the Khmer Rouge.

Seems strange to be talking about upholding Marxist values given the nature of Rojava and its governing ideology.

The federalism that the US will try to impose may be less severe than balkanization, but it is still an imperial aggression and must be resisted (see Barzani), especially by people inside the aggressor nations.

And I haven't even touched on the fact that Kurds represent 5% of Syrian population and are taking a massive amount of land including Arab majority areas.

The Federation of Northern Syria is no longer exclusively Kurdish. They even changed the name for that reason.

The Rojava Revolution transcends ethnicity.

I think allowing your people to posses firearms, banning debt slavery and organizing the economy on the basis of worker cooperatives is a lot closer to Marxism than what we've seen in decades.

The US, Russia or anyone imposing federalism must be opposed. But if it's something the people of Rojava want, why oppose it? They too are Syrians.

Rojava is explicitly not Marxist so I'm not really sure what you are on about. It's like saying social democracy is "Marxist" because it offers universal healthcare.

Then what is the basis for the nation. Because 90% of the justification I hear for the existence of Rojava is "muh oppressed Kurds need statehood"

Because the majority of Syrians oppose it and as such it can only be imposed from outside by force.

iktf

I actually want to make the argument it's closer to socialism than what the Baath government has done over the past decades.

Sure it's not "Marxist", but it espouses socialism and they're serious about it. None of this "vanguardism" or socdem stuff.

At first this was main incentive. But it's not the only or even the main reason anymore to support the revolution. It's about creating socialism beyond state capitalism, beyond socdem. Liberated areas were integrated into the system, and it's well received on the ground.
There doesn't need to be more justification than that. It's what people like and want. If you think otherwise at least let them vote on it at a local level.

I see this argument a lot. But the question is: What do the people that live in those liberated territories want? If they want a return to the Baath system, then by all means they should get it. If however they want to continue with democratic confederalist system they should be allowed to.
Regardless of whether the government or people in Damascus disagree with that. Just as long as Rojava won't enforce it's ideology on the rest of (govenrment held) Syria, and they agree to share the oil revenues from the eastern provinces.

...

Won't go because I'm lazy and cheap (kek don't even have a passport because you gotta pay) and not really cut out for war, but I've got questions anyway:
1. Is that illegal
2. Is there any kind of process or what
3. If I get bored can I just fuck off home again, or would that be unviable and I'd be stuck there until the conclusion of the thing.

The latter question in particular makes it sound amusing to go just to say you did it.

This is the reason why staying apolitical is better than delving into the black hole of politics. What does Communism or Anarchism offer for the average person? About as much as Christianity or any other religion offers the average person: a immaterial paradise, the hope of an event that leads to a better future, nothing physical or in the here and now. It's the same with Right Wing politics.

It's not illegal in most countries. But going to a war zone will probably get you questioned if you return.

There is. Contact the YPG facebook group, ask them about joining. They will fill in the details.

You can, though when you join up they expect you (at least did in the past) to stay for 6 months. Depending on the border situation leaving might be complicated, but it doesn't need to be. I've heard about people having trouble getting in, but never getting out on the Iraqi side.

In majority of countries, no.

YPG send you a questionnaire and if your answers satisfy what they want they'll arrange for you to come. You'll go through Iraqi Kurdistan.

6 months is mandatory. If you finish your 6 months YPG will pay for your flight outta there when you want to leave.

I don't know. Adherents of Demcon promise a better world, but what attracts me to it is the struggle.

It's the kind of radicalism that seemed to have died out after last century and nowadays almost exclusively exists amongst Islamism.
Modern life is so vapid, traveling to fight in a foreign land is one of the few ways out.

One of the least talked about aspects of what attracts people to jihadism is just how damn fun it is. Internationalism is like leftist jihadism.

That's incredible.
My perception of reality has been dinged slightly by the notion I can sign myself up to fight in an ongoing conflict over the internet, then return home in such a (relatively) short period.

What a world.

Every source I read emphasizes that knowing Kurmanji is by far the most useful skill.

But I confess I didn't know they specifically set aside English-speaking battalions. Are you sure about that or is it an IFB thing or what? Isn't it possible that no one in the battalion would know Kurmanji anyway?

They're not even trying to abolish capital in any sense. They're literally just capitalist.

I feel like many people who end up as Jihadis in the modern day would have been comrades in the past. People alienated from capitalist society looking for some alternative worth fighting for…

I've thought about this too. Jihadism is one of very few alternatives to neoliberal capitalism these days (not that that justifies it of course)

You're all absolutely right. Islamism attracts so many disenfranchised, alienated youths because it is the only internationalist alternative to capitalism these days. Back during the cold war, jihadis were nobodies because various socialist groups were active, and they were viable groups to rally around, fight for, and eventually run a state. With them out of the way, it's either Porky or Ahmed, and I fucking want to choke a bitch.

Stfu Phil

Eh, could be a little idealistic. The idea of it, certainly is fun to the intended audience, and the propaganda is made that way. But actually getting to Syria, being handed a pistol and some captagon, and pushed to the frontline? Seems like the "fun" would disappear quickly.

Oh right, I was mistaken in thinking Syria enjoys universal healthcare, free university education and nationalised industry, silly me!

Syria:

Rojava:

Baathism might be better than nothing, but Rojava is the future.

Meant for