So I made a thread about realism in games and brought up Greek statues and someone pointed out that the Greeks were about Idealism and not Realism. It made me wonder how exactly Idealism would work in video games. how would you show off humanity at its absolute peak and still make a good video game? best I can think of is Dante from Devil may cry but he is only half human. Granted I am not an art major so I might be missing the point of idealism.
You really can't make a truly idealistic game. Challenge in an FPS for example comes from facing off against a myriad of enemies with different strengths and weaknesses, in addition to all the other components of the game.
I wonder if there is good greek statue r34
Maybe the characters in a fighter roster? Just about everyone in Street Fighter is in top physical shape, even Honda and Sim.
That's not so much idealism though. There is no ideal character in the game, as all the characters play differently, with their own movesets and attacks. Arguably, some are better than others, but none is "the best", or the ideal.
I don't think Idealism would translate to good gameplay or even storytelling, unless you somehow conceptualize it as "creating the most perfect game" which is an impossible feat. Although my incredibly poor art knowledge tells me Idealism was more about physical perfection and beauty, rather than perfect characters/action. If everyone in the old Greek stories were perfect, those stories would have probably been shit and boring.
Idealism could certainly be applied to modeling, spriting, animating, etc. in order to ensure the game looks pretty, with handsome men and beautiful women. Filling the game with the types of people that you would want to be, physically, and filling the setting with the kinds of places you would want to live or visit. However, due to the limitations of hardware, even the most beautiful game of yesteryear can become outdated. Idealism would have to be applied as a constant to ensure the next generation of games looks more beautiful than the last.
Unlike the statues of old, games can become outdated visually. Those ancient statues are still beautiful and represent Idealism even now, while an Idealist game from 10 years ago would only be able to represent Idealism in games from that time period. As such I think Idealism can be applied as an artistic design philosophy in games, but I don't think those games could be truly representative of Idealism. They could come to represent their own movement inspired by Idealism, though.
Just the poorly educated opinion of me.
While beautiful women have become taboo, beautiful or fantastic landscapes have not (yet).
I don't see how would work as an gameplay mechanic but its much more suited to story telling as it could incorporate ones road to such idealism. This is an interesting topic as you cannot create the feeling of Idealism without making it coherent with Realism.
Funny how people used to struggle in finding a balance between Idealism and Realism and then some fuckwads came and created Degeneratism where everything is worse than Realism.
He isn't that good actually, well at least the playable character in sfiv was very nerfed compared to the one you fight in the singleplayer campaign.
You're talking aesthetics, which are meaningless when it comes to games. And, even so, aesthetically it isn't idealist. Idealism posits the existence of one ideal, not the existence of multiple ideals. The ideal man, the ideal woman, the ideal situation, the ideal world. If the characters were all visually identical, with minor, meaningless differences, that would be idealistic.
This is how modern society defines an idealistic game/character. This is flawless, this is perfection.
In other words, give up.
I feel like posting this pic
wtf i love skyrim now
someone pointed out that the Greeks were about Idealism and not Realism.
Yes, apparently the Greeks wanted to be 'as close to the gods as possible', and that's why they keep making ideal shit.
Idealism in game should probably be like less in making the perfect game, and more on creating games that is influenced by idealism as an idea.
how would you show off humanity at its absolute peak and still make a good video game?
SkyWitcherRim 3 rules bro
I'm not a fag but the Witcher girls look better clothed because the nipples look like shit.
2B, however she's an android.
Ohh damn nigger. I kinda hate skyrim lewds, but that girl is freaking hot. If skyrim wasn't such a shit game I would reinstall it just to see Triss getting banged. That said, modded Serana is still my favorite skyrim girl.
its hard to make a utopia fun because real enjoyment comes from overcoming a challenge, and in an ideal world all challenges have been overcome. that being said, a game about an ideal hero fighting the more realistic forms of evil and negative energy would be my first choice if making a game about "idealism"
It's actually Witcher 3. Girl is Triss.
Gill is op in third strike, they didn't even nerf him when adding him to single player. Also Akuma in sf2 super turbo is op and banned from tournament play.
how would you show off humanity at its absolute peak and still make a good video game?
How exactly is this a difficult question to answer? Nips have perfected the art of creating waifus, and those are as idealized as they could be.
and then backpedal on it
Yeah fuck that game
Let me guess, Western leftist cucks got PTSD when they felt their penis twitch for the first time in a while.
she looks like a fucking ant with those eyes and hair
It was korean leftists actually.
Fucking gooks. God damn, do I hate those goddamn ants. Chinks and Nips don't bother me at all, but holy fucking shit do Koreans and their weird fascination with used goods, NTR and feminism shoot my blood pressure into orbit.
Korean peninsusla needs to be under occupation.
Preferrably japanese because they built concentration camps staffed with gooks to oppress the gooks.
Truly the Jew of Asia.
Dunno why you care so much, but it's fair enough.
Western feminism is small time compared to korean one.
Dunno why you care so much
Let me tell you
oh, this Dungeon Defense novel is pretty neat
it's actually going the harem route
wait, what do you mean the military loli was repeatedly raped by her family
just last volume you said she wasn't
and why is the lolibaba suddenly a cock thirsty whore that had cocks in the high triple digists
last volume she became a blushing, stuttering mess at the mere mention of sex
why is the protagonist now a genocidal edgelord when the previous volumes were more dark humor and scheming?
And that's when I ragequit. Or how about
hey, this webcomic is neat
hey, this webcomic is neat even though it's written by a Gook, hopefully the last one was just a one off
hey, this webcomic is neat, third time's the charm, right?
That's when I became a firm believer in the truth that Korea is Japanese clay.
This game was very blatantly about idealism.
FOR THE GLORY OF MANKIND.
Those tits look so fucking ugly.
AYYYYYYYYYYYY LMAO face
Damn, i hate worst korea so fucking much. It's like a mix between the worst traits of modern japanese culture and the worst traits of modern western "culture".
Posts almost identical ayyy lmao face
This user gets it.
Also dissecting teh question. Artist of the past had it somewhat easy. Just copying the nature was a tremendous achievement, indeed by handwork it is a wonder. But in modern time just copying the nature lost its value, technology ruined this art, disfranchised such achievement, everyone with iphone in the hand can make a copy of real body better than any artist could ever hope to achieve. 4K porn is everywhere and costs nothing. Copying of the nature became trade not art. Artists need to DO BETTER than nature and this is an essence of idealism. Nips and there anime art culture is only major art movement today that builds itself on seeking such better than life human ideal.
inb4 waifus is not an art
Yes this is why OP posts starts with booty and this why Renaissance artists drew so much of waifus naked or not.
except one is 3D and looks uncanny as fuck whiles the other looks okey
missing the fact the effort, skill and talent put into making art has value itself and not to mention it has its own aesthetic
You are incorrect in your statement.
If you think that drawn anime looks any less unhuman than 3D one, you're delusional.
Yes this is why OP posts starts with booty
its actually because I didn't have any other pictures of Greek statues. or at least I thought I didn't, apparently I had this thing too but couldn't find it when I made the thread.
Learn the uncanny valley before opening your spitter again.
Pretty sure that's a dude user.
Anyone got the cap from /pol/ where an anons asks if its degenerate to lost over greek statues?
Uncanny valley is when model in question looks 99% like real human, and that one last 1% is what fucks with the perception.
You are fucking retarded.
i spent some much effort, skill and talent digging these holes with a shovel pls appreciate my talents no man can match me this work has value itself
So you have only a baseline understand of it, good to know I should ignore you.
It is but it's still a pretty statue.
Nips and there anime
You are illiterate, retarded and also wrong.
copy tips from /suicide/index.html ASAP
It's disgusting filth. The Greeks shouldn't be idolized, but used as a stepping stone. They're among the earliest, most primitive forms of civilization, with their savagery, pederasty and carnal lust: think of what we could achieve if we took their work and elevated it, built upon it. Our culture, our society, our civilization is in degeneration because we forgot to take the example of the Greeks as a cautionary tale.
Why are you good at identifying men from behind, user?
God damn Italians trying to trick people into being gay.
I recognized the lighting, the cushion, and the pose.
user what the fuck are you talking about? Just because an idiot lived in a barrel and the rich were into debauchery (like today) doesn't mean shit.
he doubles down on his retardation
Dante from Devil may cry
You're a retard
literally an androgynous herm
Refuses to acknowledge critic and playing ignorant
SF's art style is attricious, the proportions are vomit-inducing.
It does though. We should be well beyond the Greeks at this point, but we aren't. As a species, we're still the same morally lecherous filth as they were, we just have electricity and atomic power. It's as if no progress was made at all.
I don't know if you've noticed user, but this whole thread is full of them.
I thought it was Triss mod for skyrim.
Again - the average greek didn't live in a barrel and fuck men.
I have to agree.
Shit faces and slut walk do not say ideal.
How do we know this? Many examples of Greek pottery, regarded as low, common art in its time, depict homophilia in gross detail.
Average Greek praised state founded whorehouses filled with foreign enslaved girls. Imagine levels of toxic male oppression.
How do we know this? Many examples of Greek pottery, regarded as low, common art in its time, depict homophilia in gross detail.
That's just prove there's always have been degenerates that feel the need to prove to everyone they are the biggest faggot
I seriously hope historians in the future won't be like you and base their research on the modern equivalent like twitter or tumblr, because holy shit, we're going to be all ugly multi-colored dykes who likes to redraw anime in their horrible calartstyle and bitch about fat shaming
You know using more accurate sources like divorce courts records would not paint better picture about modern society.
but they are already naked
Pottery was commissioned user. Potters were paid to engrave all manner of things on the pots they made, whether they agreed to it or not. It was pornography. The fact that we still have such a concept today is a testament to the moral depravity of this society, which is still stuck in the past. It should have been gradual progression, and it was: Rome was better, then Byzantium, then the Medieval States, and so on. But somewhere, in that transition to the modern age, the progress reversed in a rapid cacophony back to the age of the Greeks and their decadence. I can only hope we degenerate once more to the days of great Uruk, of Ur and Eridu.
The ideal character in the game is subjective. It's one of those cases where there's a character for everyone. No matter who you are, at least one character in Street Fighter will resonate with you.
I'd like to introduce a point to the thread: Eroge is an entire genre built on idealism. A modern interpretation of idealism is subjective idealism. That is, having a variety of options because different people will idealize different things. Eroge captures this essence perfectly, with games effectively being built around picking a character to fawn over, or outright creating your own.
Classic idealism would be something more along the lines of, and I say this unironically, Sonic the Hedgehog. It was a game trying to be, in no hyperbole, the best. It wanted to be something that would capture a universal audience with a single piece, and it did this through intense market research and compounding the various idealized pieces from works that had come before it.
But somewhere, in that transition to the modern age, the progress reversed in a rapid cacophony back to the age of the Greeks and their decadence
Maybe you are wrong with hypotheses that thing you call "decadence" is reversion of the progress.
The fact that we still have the concept of pornography today is a testament to the moral depravity of this society, which is still stuck in the past.
What the fuck am I reading?
All I'm getting from this is that pottery fans were the furfags of ancient Greece, and potters were the starving artists who became famous for drawing gigantic donut buttholes on neon colored insects and farm animals.
I don't think this can be cured, merely treated in the short-term.
The fact that we still have such a concept today is a testament to the moral depravity of this society, which is still stuck in the past.
You should learn to distinguish between erotics and porn.
It is. The seeking of pleasure is the most animalistic thing a human can do. Pleasure was the incentive for the actions our ancient ancestors performed, not the purpose. The purpose was the betterment of the species, the goal was civilization. At some point the incentive had to go away, so that man could realize his purpose.
They're both filth, but one has some mystical thread attached to it, that idea of "love".
I think you should go back to /tumblr/index.html or /christian/index.html
Christians indulge in erotica all the time. A historically significant piece of erotica is found right in their compendium of Holy Books, written by the diabolist king, Solomon. Tumblr teems with the sort as well.
Romans shittalking Porus and his greek army
making gay jokes for centuries to come
the gayest shit ever found in museums is Roman
FUCKING LAPRING SPAGHETTI SLURPING FAGGOTS
if pottery fans were the furfags of the time then there is no way that the artists were starving in any way given their contemporary counterparts are rolling in cash
I don't even know what you are getting it. You are telling me that one of the most well known ideologies to denounces sexuality is is actually too sexual? I don't even care for proof its a fact that I don't agree with your denunciation of human nature.
You are currently making a fool of yourself.
You haven't heard of the Song of Solomon? It's outright erotic and laden with filth. Christians delude themselves into think it's love between the church and the Messiah, but it's truly heinous and pornographic.
Sexuality doesn't exist user. Intercourse has but one purpose, and that is the development of another human being. To think otherwise is decadent. Love is a concept for the poets, not a reality.
The Bible doesn't denounce sex within marriage, that's just something misguided plebs do to make themselves feel more holy.
he doesn't think erotica can have deeper meaning
he think degrading everything to its baseline animalistic desires is the road to real civilization
Sure, if you're an ant or a communist.
In modern terms that is. Today its ok to fuck 5 people while Christianity allows only one. Which I agree with btw before another argument erupts.
So, it's basically a byzantine hentai doujin?
I don't see how I would be a plebeian in any sense of the concept. Would it not be comforting for me to believe that love is a true part of human society? Is it not more discomforting to know the truth, that it is but a delusion?
Love is derived from animalistic desire user. In all its forms. There is no spirit or soul in dopamine. It's only there to convince people into doing things which are good for not only the body, but the species. If God was just, He would have removed the ability to feel pleasure upon the development of literacy and civilization.
Apotheon aside, are there any games where you get to play greek spearmen? Or spearmen in general?
The seeking of pleasure is the most animalistic thing a human can do
Well blame the nature that hacked reproduction problem with one simple trick. Tying orgasm to ejaculation. Primitive hack job but it only thing that works. Carnal pleasure is a way of life. Rejecting this pleasure is the end of the species. Can uncontrolled consumption of lust destroy? Indeed. But rejection of lust kills lifeline no less sure. Humans need forbidden fruit but suffer from it to. Sounds familiar? You version of ideal is staying in Paradise, but it is limbo, nonexistence by not having a conscious.
Or spearmen in general?
Metal gear survive (^:
So you are a Communist where 100% is suppose to be practical completely of its human aspect.
You are a bug person who need to be stepped on.
Is that worth a pirate? I still haven't gotten around to playing Phantom Pain.
it's another of those "why did God allow me to feel pleasure" fags
actively partake in a thread and its discussion
shortening a phrase
wow dude rude
Take your own advise and fuck off.
There isn't because they didn't make pornography they made art.
Can't pirate due to always online.
But unlike Vermintide 2 it doesn't feature Easy Spyware, or any anticheat for that matter.
Yes, I suppose. Why did God, if He exists, put this feeling in man? This feeling which ultimately and always leads to death, disease, depression, and degeneration? This feeling which has brought society as a whole to such a bottomless pit of degradation, where there is no objective good other than pleasure?
To have fun you fucking faggot. We can't be saints all the time and without pleasure
vidya life loses a lot of it's spice.
Shame. Was hoping it would give me something to play after Orcs must die.
Might as well say "why did he give us life if it ultimately leads to death, disease, depression and degeneration?".
Pleasure works as an incentive. Whether you base your entire life around it is a different topic.
What value does fun have though? It's temporal, neverlasting. It leads to nothing at this point in time. It was useful when we were primitive cave dwellers, but we are no longer primitive cave dwellers. We have language, we can think, yet we are still brought to peril by this primordial delusion which is love, which is pleasure.
You can disappear up your own existential arsehole lad, I'm going to enjoy this existence with fun things.
You think you can build something without foundations. Are you just fishing for (you)s at this point?
Why are you on a video game board?
sculpt a female
give it a cock and call it a male
the absolute state of trapfags
And yet they will scream bloody murder if you point out it's gay.
Image and iconography.
Men that are important must always be the peak of beauty and physical form, and never fail without a comeback to destroy their enemies later.
All opposition must be portrayed as weak, ugly and retarded (so, like jews), and always fail.
As for women, the good ones must have no flaws, but still be subversive and incapable of realizing anything without Men.
The bad ones must always be envious, manipulative and overall ugly (or not as beautiful as the good ones), and always be punished, tortured, abused in any form, for their deeds.
Push enough of all of this, and soon, people will start to notice the connections with reality, and then it becomes Realism without even changing anything.
I bet the Jews did this.
But that user said just putting a dick on a female doesn't make it male
Liking girls isn't gay
Eating is also temporal. Hunger will come back later. Yet eating is what allows us to live longer.
Another shitty fucking point.
Did you just come out of reading Nietzsche and feel like a deep philosophical individual or something? All your points are fucking terrible and le edgy darkness, to top it off. Why are you embarrassing yourself like this?
I play(ed) video games. Now, I'm starting to consider giving up on it. It's pointless. I'm pointless.
I've never read Nietzsche. I don't read books of philosophy.
It's frightening how right you are.
Girls don't have penises.
spoiler that shit next time jesus
I now have aids by just looking at that shit.
Whether they're objectively biologically female or not, if they can trick you, they're girls, perception is reality
And those weird edge cases nobody wants to fuck that you use to showcase extreme ideological degeneracy don't help your argument, they're a completely separate phenomena
perception is reality
Take your tranny shit to the gas chamber.
idealism not realism
Wow this retard thinks that things were not better back in the good old days
Anyone who was unfit was castrated and turned into a slave
he doesn't know about theory of relativity
Do you want me to post buck angel
Because it really seems like you're asking for buck angel
trips of truth
I guess that by that logic if you where in a coma and I shot you in the head you wouldn't die because you couldn't feel the bullet, right?
Are you a fucking homosexual?
le jewish may may plagiarized from real scientists
defending relativism and subjectivism
Reported. Kill yourself.
Kill yourself, queer.
The pots which did represent actual gay sex–censored by intercrucial depictions–are few. And does the existence of homosexual pornography tell us the society as a whole generally thought homosexuality was natural and good? Of course not. Then there’s the whole term pederasty and what we translate as “lover.” If pederasty was about sex, then why was admiring boys in a sexual way frowned upon? We know there were prohibitions of this. It seems that what we translate as “lover” should more likely be translated as “teacher.”
Sodomy–the modern definition of anal sex rather than the Middle Ages’ of bestiality, et. al.–was punishable by death in most of the city-states of Greece. Pederasty was institutional in some cases (Sparta and Thebes), but penetrative sex was not. And in Athens, the openly homosexual could not own property, and, by extension, vote or serve in a public office. In Rome, homosexuality was considered a vice. You were technically allowed to sodomize a male slave, but doing so would be looked at as a “decadent Greek practice.” Though the openly homosexual could own property, they could not hold office or military rank. Homosexual activity of any type with a fellow citizen meant that you would be cast out of social circles. Receiving sodomy was a crime punished by revocation of property, and, by extension, rights of citizenship. In some Providences, it was punished by death or exile.
We don't have character limits on posts here. I'm politely asking you to go back to wherever you came from.
Unless I was going to wake up from the coma, I certainly wouldn't give a shit either way
The braindead are not people
Greeks (and not only) went homo almost only in war times; when you're away from home for decades or more at a time with only males around and could be fucking hacked to pieces the next morning you tend to relax standards.
Sieges could last decades with almost daily battles, travelling from place to place on goddamn foot likewise - what the fuck would you expect?
Rome lasted for millennia lad, they've frowned on sodomy until the absorption of Greece, and even after it was very damn limited (war-bound + some degenerates among the ultra-rich + baccus cultists' orgies), then abolished entirely with the conversion to Christianity
perception is reality
Literally quoting Henry Kissinger, how fucking disgusting, only "war by deception" jews would so blatantly deny truth.
that shit is not applicable.
only "war by deception" jews would so blatantly deny truth.
t. user denying basic psychology
shortening is only for character limits
Again - take your own advice and leave.
t. user denying basic reality
Even if you're fooled by a trannies disguise, they still have the wrong chromosomes and and cannot conceive children, making them factually not that sex.
So your perception is not in line with reality, thus making perception not reality.
You are in one of those dreamy comas.
It means that not every single thing you read is true, you fucking retarded room temperate IQ delusional floorlicking bottom of the barrel faggot fuck inbred.
The difference being between subjective and objective reality
Objectively, playing video games is a waste of goddamn time that accomplishes next to nothing
Subjectively, video games are fucking awesome and I'm okay wasting my life on them
That has literally nothing to do with the argument you illiterate nigger
no such thing exists. That's just called an opinion retard.
You're mistaken. Perception is human interpretation of reality, which is inherently flawed.
To make an example, there are today literally tens of millions of niggers thinking they are "systematically oppressed by racism embedded in governance" while they're treated as first class citizens with lesser penalties, free opportunity, free food, free compassion etc.
They perceive oppression but oppression isn't reality.
isn't rooted in fact. There are people out there that see demons and monsters in their minds, and to any discernible effect they can perceive, their hallucinations are "real"
Everything you experience is your perception of reality
Everything you experience is exclusive to you
The brain's ability to perceive the world outside of it is not "an opinion"
There are people out there that see demons and monsters in their minds, and to any discernible effect they can perceive, their hallucinations are "real"
The distinction here being traps aren't a hallucination, they have that name for a reason, they're a collective observable phenomena across all of humanity based on our basic instinctual reactions to secondary sex characteristics working the way they do
just because you're too unenlightened to see reality doesn't mean it isn't there.
EXTREME NEOTENY ALIENS
your brain is a means to an end. Everything it does is an effort to show you objective reality.
reality is reality, perception is just your take on it.
Essentially you're saying that you can't be deluded or insane. That itself is a SJW ideal.
That is why propaganda is important.
Fix the reality and objectivity in the minds of people, and reality itself will do the work.
Was making me think part of your plan?
Except propaganda by nature is flawed and exists to push ideas that aren't true. What you said about ideals in relation to men and women eventually leads to a divide like it has now, and roles change over the years because people rebel against these roles, you can't keep society like that forever, it's already a broken system.
People will appeal to injustices and individualistic natures naturally and once it hooks someone, there's no coming back even if you spam propaganda in their face. As information become more and more easily accessible, propaganda loses it's importance because it's effectiveness starts to reduce and doesn't stop.
You can't control people when they're educating themselves, you can have groups, yes, but you can't unite a country with propaganda anymore. Which is why instead of that, you switch to truth.
You switch to things that cannot be denied, intrinsic truths, truths you simply do not have control over, only rights to discovery. You keep at that. Because people in this day and age understand what being lied to feels like, and that feeling will be the end of you.
Propaganda was ONCE important to keep people at a goal, but it's not going to work as a uniter in the current age, and regressing to a pre-internet society will only get you left in the dust by other countries, and reduce your ability to compete, ultimately those who do regress will be sidelined or destroyed.
You have to let go of your leash, because control isn't the way in this age. You have to uncover the truth. You have to show it to the world. And whatever comes, you can't control. If you do, you get shitcanned like the rest of the tyrants who tried. The age of control is over. Now it's the Wild West again, an age of chaos where things will be determined by individuals, not secret societies. And there's nothing either of us can do about that. That's a good thing. Those little secret societies are flawed, they comprimise lives, they make cold decisions that benefit no man. They're human, flawed, incomplete, prone to corruption. It'll be replaced by people who constantly replace before they can get to that point of evil. Be an agent of the truth, not propaganda, not lies. See the universe and determine its constants, and therein lies the way forward.
Who says propaganda has to be untrue? You based that fucking essay on the assumption that all propaganda is lies when the best propaganda IS the unfiltered truth!
Truth isn't propaganda. Are you telling me that saying that 2 + 2 = 4 is propaganda? Propaganda implies that you have to say an untrue thing over and over to get people to accept it, propaganda is just a repetition of things you want people to see as truth.
Besides, this is a very silly game of semantics you're playing to try to discredit the actual message via tertiary reasons. AKA propaganda tactics.
This is a nice vidya thread :^)
i'm still mad about this
I don't understand how/why they made her eyes look WORSE in that first picture
Except propaganda by nature is flawed and exists to push ideas that aren't true.
So you don't know what propaganda is. Thanks for telling me not to read the rest of your post.
Do you always redirect every argument by being a fucking pussy? You can't even address anything, you're here to talk AT people, to spread propaganda. That's why you're not listened to.
if I don't like what you say, It's propaganda!
fucking lefty looney tunes go play some open source shit
You sure got butthurt when I told you that lying to people doesn't fucking work. You instantly switched to juvenile bullshit as soon as someone cared to dissect your argument, you have no comeback. This is why the left lost the election.
Not even him, check IDs.
Oh, sure you are, you totally didn't switch IDs in order to fake a supporter in order to try to regain some sort of legitamacy. Even if you're a different guy, you're a faggot either way.
Didn't though. Just pointing out your semantic bullshit of calling propaganda any thing you don't like. Quite "propagandaish" imo.
Not to mention the ad hominem layered on believing that someone gives enough of a shit to make the same argument twice.
Propaganda is information, used to promote a political cause or point of view.
Government issuing posters and mediu
Niggers are subhuman filth that we will not ever accept
Is propaganda based in truth.
You're talking aesthetics, which are meaningless when it comes to games
"People don't put meaning into the aesthetics of a game"
Mass lies on a media scale no matter the cause are propaganda, though.
You telling me the whole Russian Hacker nothing burger isn't? You think that isn't some pathetic attempt to unite the country against another one in order to get shit done? That alone should tell you his argument is full of shit.
You're a retard. You come into this thread pulling some /leftypol/ shit and you're surprised that someone told you to fuck off. Everyone knows you fucks come in pairs or triads to start shit because you can't otherwise. Get the fuck off the board, goon.
If it's true I don't give a shit. But the fact that you have to keep saying it means it's not taking for some reason, maybe because it's not a complete truth due to exceptions or different cultures. You should argue with averages, not absolutism, it's more believable.
Ah, but who had the ideal ass? Triss probably.
This thread is shit
Thread naturally veers away from vidya and uses what OP posted as a jumping off point into greek civilization and philosophy within a couple dozen posts because there's not much vidya-related to talk about
Blatantly triggered mods come in to end the argument for being "off topic"
Off topic not vidya argument still going anyway, but now instead of a bunch of cunts arguing about reality, it's just a few cunts lazily flinging political shit at each other, thread ground to a crawl
kek, good job
Age of Decadence lets you play as a pretty solid spear + shield guy. It's turn based though, but still the spear is satisfying.
Idealism : Doom.
Realism : Kingdom Come.
Doom was pure teenage spirit and nihilism and rage bottled up in 1990's pre-Huffington Post freedom.
Let's face it : you will never 360 kill demons after shooting a rocket on the ground or anything like that irl.
I created a gif to explain for illustration. It is what it is.
Let's face it : you will never 360 kill demons after shooting a rocket on the ground or anything like that irl.
That's true, but that's not what idealism means. That's just fantasy.
Doom isn't a fantasy game pal.
Truth isn't propaganda.
Confirmed for knowing absolutely nothing about the topic.
Are you telling me that saying that 2 + 2 = 4 is propaganda?
If everyone thinks 2+2=5, then yes, the campaign to restore truth would have to be propagandistic.
Propaganda implies that you have to say an untrue thing over and over to get people to accept it
No, that’s not what it implies.
propaganda is just a repetition of things you want people to see as truth
You know fantasy in a general sense doesn't mean tolkien elves and shit. It's just anything that is unreal and fantastic.
Fantasy means anything that is not real. Video games aren't real ergo it's all fantasy. Can you see how arguing about idealism in this way isn't going to bring us very far?
being so mad that you pull the samefag card
That's true. It's a FUN game.
Idealism : Doom.
Realism : Kingdom Come
<Ideal realistic game: Hexen
I'm talking about the premise of the video game faggot. You know what I mean.
Man, Hexen was cool as shit
I wish more games would try similar concepts, now that we can actually do first person melee action combat justice
the fucking doots in the midi soundtrack
Premise wise Doom is a Fantasy game as it acknowledges concepts that are beyond the realm of science.
Hexen looks pretty dope tbh.
But, it doesn't have that classic feel to it or enough background lore where people would ride fucking essays about it like Doom has.
If you think Doom is fantasy, you're missing the point. Doom is a reflection of its times and as such a good candidate for idealism in video games.
Yes that's what I was getting at.
tfw arguing about idealism but no one actually mentions the correct definition of it as defined by Plato
I've lost track of this thread then I guess. I'm so fucking tired of semantics discussion on this board.
I suppose that is as close to Idealism in games as well get. Doom guy shooting the legions of hell and punching satan in the dick.
I can't blame you, this whole thread is pretty much semantics.
Honestly, Doom guy shooting legions of hell is like a metaphor I feel.
For what, I don't know exactly, but if you think Doom is about just killing fantasy demons, you're way off the mark.
Doom guy shooting legions of hell is like a metaphor I feel.
It's a metaphor for shooting legions of hell. Don't ascribe artistry to Doom. In fact don't ascribe artistry to VIDYA in general and we won't reference shit like Gone Home and we we will all be happier for it.
Doom is just a simple game about shooting demons, that's it. Nothing more nothing less, just meant to be fun.
Doomguy shooting the legions of hell is a metaphor for the player having fun.
I swear there's a term for things that include both sci-fi/science fantasy and traditional fantasy elements
DOOM is a metaphor of one man's struggle against his personal demons. You'll notice a strong motif of flasks, cups, bottles through the game. This represents the DOOMguy overindulging, but yet even in his drunken stupor, or towards the end of the game as he becomes increasingly intoxicated and eventually passes out, he fights to overcome his limitations and give up the bottle for good. The ending is left intentionally vague to be interpreted by the viewer, either as a message of hope or grim reality. Does the final boss represent DOOMguy overcoming his addiction, or does it portray his final surrender and imply that he drank himself to death?
implying its not that if you combat sin you will become unstoppable
Pretty sure this guy would disagree with you three :
Hutchinson, A. (2008) “Making the Water Move: Techno-historic Limits in the Game Aesthetics of Myst and Doom,”
The "I really like this water" miiverse guy is a peer reviewed vidya-ologist
Imagine having a PhD in meme's
I genuinely don't understand what the fuck you're trying to say in this post. Which probably means it's hipster bullshit.
I don't dump my collection on Holla Forums anymore, but it hasn't really grown much anyways.
paper is on aesthetic and tone
Doom is supposed to look good, play good, and sound good. That's where the artistry goes, not some kind of insight into what it is to be human (although is probably on to something tbh).
I like how Hutchson says that good sound isn't important in Doom even though the sound design has a big impact in gameplay. It's easy to tell whether there's an imp or a zombieman in the darkness in front of you and that kind of sound design is lost in modern games like Doom '16.
motivational poster format
Do not do this.
sound isn't important in Doom
The only thing important in vidya is gameplay. Doom just has the aspect of having some pretty innovative sound design.
Nothing is important except for gameplay
The game could be nothing but a handful of moving white pixels and silence and it would still be just as fun, trust me I know things about video games
sound design affects gameplay you tard
Have you ever played a good game with no gameplay? I doubt it.
People saying other things are important means they're saying gameplay is meaningless
Are you fucking retarded
You're the only one to have made the extremist claim that only gameplay matters here. Don't put us in the same bag as you.
The only thing important in films is moving images. X just has the aspect of having some pretty innovative sound design.
sound design affects our perception you tard
Have you ever watched a good movie with no moving images? I doubt it.
Are you? Name one good game without gameplay.
Prove me wrong, faggot.
Fucking your mom.
Gameplay is the most important priority of a game but that doesn't mean it's the only important priority. Sound and visual design all play a part
Name one good game without light
Prove me wrong you fucking downy
Gameplay may be the most important aspect of a game, but isn't the only thing that matters
Do you seriously think the super shotgun or the shotgun from Demonsteele or High Noon Drifter would be as satisfying and fun to use if they had a stock sound effect or no sound at all?
Gameplay close to meaningless if you don't have a good sound, visual, and level design to back it up.
name a book without pages
name a text without letters
name a color without color pigments
False equivalent. In your case it would be
name a video game without code
Gameplay close to meaningless if you don't have a good sound
Audio takes away from the game more often than not. Writing is cheap, VAs are not.
You guys clearly don't know what you're talking about. I've played a game or two in my day, plus I went to school for it. This is the equivalent of a high schooler giving advice to an economist.
Without gameplay, you have no game. It's a simple concept to grasp.
plus I went to school for it. This is the equivalent of a high schooler giving advice to an economist.
fucking i can';t anymore.
plus I went to school for it
Sound effects somehow equals voice acting
So Doom would be just as good without the music or sound effects?
Name one good game without light
Heavy Gear :^)
I went to school for it
bet you didn't graduate magnum cum load like i did
Nigger, aesthetics are part of gameplay and are incredibly important if you want your game to be playable. Aesthetics are a description of what's going on inside the program and give the player/user some idea of what's going on inside. Even CLI programs and text adventures achieve an aesthetic through their textual descriptions of what's going on inside and how you can interact with the program.
A game with no aesthetic whatsoever would be meaningless because it would have no discernible output, effectively a blank screen. You could press as many keys as you wanted but you would get no apparent response, so whatever the game is actually doing internally is meaningless.
VAs might, but general sound design doesn't.
mister c# economist over here.
The monkey learned a new trick. Daddy and mommy bought you a computer? A computer?!
<notices ur post
uwu You guys cwearwy don't know what ur tawking about!!! I've pwayed a game or two in my day owo plus I went to school fow it
Yiffout gamepway, you have no game. It's a VEWY simple concep to GWASP
is this sam hyde???
Is this you sam hyde, is this me?
Imagine you have to take medical advice. Do you choose a doctor, or some random guy on the street? Same thing, fucking idiots.
Your aesthetics won't mean shit without gameplay. You may as well be saying 1 + 1 = 3.
What's your point? Faggot? Economics is a respectable field.
Propaganda is not lying.
It is exposing the truth in so many fronts that people can't escape from it.
And control is obligatory for a society to work.
Chaos is always defeated by human control.
This user said it well: you don't know what you are talking about.
I went to vidya scool guis, that means you need to respect my opinion!
Appealing to authority doesn't work here faggot, neck yourself
a part doesn't mean shit because it isn't the whole
What's your point?
Economics is a respectable field.
A wolf doesn't concern himself with the opinions of sheep. Go troll elsewhere.
There's always meaning in art, even if it's made for entertainment. The thing is that artists are putting in things like that subconcioussly or are even doing it concioussly but on very shallow level. DOOM still has motives of heroism, self-sacrifice, battling against evil and helping the weak. Just remind yourself why DOOMguy even got on Mars in the first place. He put his officer into a body bag because he didn't want to kill innocents. That is incredibly rebelious, and makes DOOMguy look like a complete battle-obsessed maniac but still makes him sympathethic. For all it's worth, DOOMguy has morals, he is the good guy, the hero who really loves fighting but at the same time has good enough of a heart to protect the weak. In the end he is just a very hardcore chaotic good hero that only does perfectly justifable and heroic things like protecting Earth from demons as well as protecting the weak from cruelty of his surperiors. That itself is a moral and a meaning.
please leave the thread so I can yiff in peace
we already established who the educated one is here.
yeah right. diploma or gtfo
Vidya college means literally nothing, except you wasted your money
I repeat; Appealing to authority doesn't work here
Holy shit, is this even real? Do people really think that's how you bait people?
Retard, you had a good thing going and you ruined it.
I was only pretending to be retarded
You're doing it wrong retard.
thread starts out talking about how to make Idealistic games
degenerates into whether greeks are gay or not.
now its just some faggot fishing for (you)s
I always find it funny when a thread goes completely off topic. its like you fucks have the memory of a goldfish.
Just stay at leftypol and fuck off.
It was briefly funnier than the "why did god make me feel love" guy
I'm a libertarian, actually. Fuck /leftypol/.
We'd still be arguing about greeks and traps if I wasn't banned for it
It's those goddamn crossboard psyops I tell you
No, you're not a libertarian faggot, you're a retard. I don't want to be lumped with you, find another term for yourself.
being a libertarian faggot
Are you suppose to be above him?
Just as bad. Still you have your own containment board, fuck off.
I'm not letting anyone ban my porn games faggot. I want to finally be able to buy a fucking gun, watch chinese porn cartoons and set up a business without the government fucking everything up.
Libertarian itself might be a bad word, I'm something between that and conservative, but if we're here to talk about politics then I think this thread might just be straight up deleted.
politics hurts muh vidya discushen :((((
Grow up manchild. As long as it's on the right of the political axis, it doesn't require a containment board.
but if we're here to talk about politics then I think this thread might just be straight up deleted.
Oh no, not this great thread getting deleted.
Wrong word, I should have said "should be deleted", seeing that we have completely missed the original point of the thread.
No. This is an ideal thread.
pointed out that the Greeks were about Idealism and not Realism
t. hambeast roastie
Mods don't give a shit unless you make some faggot assmad and they report you
If they did, over half of this thread would be gone by now
That one guy got all his shit deleted except
Why can't Idealism count as a political ideology?
Idealism is reaching for the ideal in self as much as in art.
Cause it does not relate to the organization of people and the way in which a country should be run.
Someone got booty bothered so all his shit was nuked and the rest of the thread is fine
Why that specific post is still here is probably an oversight, or could have been posted afterwards, but could also speak to the reason for deletion
Actually if we're talking about idealism, I think you can divide fictional universes into different categories depending on how realistic they are and how idealistic or gritty they are in their portrayal.
I think he personally trolled a mod, seeing the reaction.
Fiction should always strive for fun and excitement, which is exactly the opposite of what modern Western writers shit out. Their aim is not to entertain, but to disgust and shock the audience. All their output can be basically summed up as blood, guts, feces and feces related jokes and cussing.
Just compare Tolkien and GRRM. One lived through, and wrote parts of his books, while in the trenches of WW1 (and other parts when both his sons were soldiers in WW2), and the other is a fat sack of shit that masturbates to the shitty sex scenes and food descriptions he writes.
Faggot some of the greatest works of fiction strive for the opposite and are powerful works because of it.
It's not like we can't have both. If we went by your logic, horror genre couldn't exist. In the end, writing is about fulfiling a fantasy of the author or the reader, no matter how dark that fantasy might be.
Shit, I'd be pissed too if I unironically kept taking the bait after "I've played a game or two in my day" and didn't notice
Would be embarrassing as fuck if it was the trollface that finally got them, he was going for a while
Tolkien started writing books after WW1.
It's their reaction to idealistic depictions in stories. Martin wouldn't have written his book the way he did if Tolkien hadn't made him feel bad about himself and his worldview. Funding anyone with aspirations to show humanity to be anything higher than meat and shit is a no go.
Game of Thrones is entertainment while Lord of the Rings is the original autistic worldbuilding project. GoT was never meant to be disgusting, that's only the lens you view it through because you're more pure than the average normalfag in at least some respects.
Consider pics related. Both games are good, and if one is better it's because of personal taste rather than one aesthetic being inherently better.
Martin outright admitted that he wrote SoIaF as a reaction to Tolkien though. He wanted characters who shit and fucked because he cares a lot about those subjects.
Greeks were about Idealism and not Realism
Plato was all about Idealism, Aristotle was all about Realism. Both were Greek. The key difference is that Plato believed the form existed in a metaphysical realm before its instantiation, whereas Aristotle believed in in the ideal in concept but that it only took form in each individual instantiation.
the age of control is not only not over, but we're entering a new age of disinfo. between the societal destruction of objectivity, total corruption of academia, endless balkanization of identities and groups, increasing centralization of internet, and the rise of AI, things are looking pretty bleak from where i'm sitting. the populace is completely unprepared to defend their minds from corruption.
I'm reasonably sure he began the first drafts of his mythology during WW1. He certainly drew inspiration from his war experiences.
I always laugh at Martin boasting how we don't know Aragon's tax policy, like anyone in their right mind gives a flying fuck. If that fat sack of shit spent less time navel gazing maybe he would have finished his abortion of a franchise by now.
It's their reaction to idealistic depictions in stories.
Same shit with Joe Abercrombie and whatever the name of that fuck who wrote about that preacher dude from a secret sect looking for his escaped father. Feces, profanity, a cast of hateful, petty subhumans with not a redeeming trait to them, whores and gratuitous descriptions of nasty sex.
Game of Thrones is entertainment
You have to be brain damaged to be entertained. I've talked to people that skipped virtually all the Dany chapters in the past few books because they are so fucking boring and uninteresting. I remember doing the same back in the day.
GoT was never meant to be disgusting, that's only the lens you view it through because you're more pure than the average normalfag in at least some respects.
It's a product of modern Western "culture", of course it is disgusting by design. What hole have you been living under?
Both games are good, and if one is better it's because of personal taste rather than one aesthetic being inherently better.
No, fuck you, both games do the same thing, they entertain you by giving you what you want. Did you read Roadside Picking or watched Stalker? Do you want to explore the Zone and go on exciting and scary adventures? Then STALKER is the game for you.
What the fuck does ASoIaF offer? A cast of retards and cunts doing petty shit against each other?
He wanted characters who shit and fucked because he cares a lot about those subjects.
Martin is as pure a golem as there could be.
I never said Game of Thrones was good.
You have to be brain damaged to be entertained.
GRRM is brain damaged.
Too many people here are confusing idealism with hot bods. Consider the Parthenon is also representative of the Platonic ideal. It's proportions are not exactly square, it's built slightly off so that from certain angels it looks more "perfect" and actual mathematical precision.
Consider a circle that is perfect- no matter how carefully you would draw it, if you magnified enough, in reality there would be a flaw. But you understand what I mean by "a perfect circle." Not the band, don't be the retard making that joke. The Platonic ideal then, there exists an impossible "perfect" you can strive to create.
Games could fit within this thinking in a couple ways.
1. Trying to create Platonic perfect, refined examples of a genre. I.e. what is the perfect platformer? Style, art, music, story, whatever, only enter the picture to accomplish the goal. You try to work out your answer and then assess how successful it is in the completion. If this sounds obvious or vague, imagine this taking place in a society that valued this ideal and there would be intellectual discussion of what it means. Your work couldn't and wouldn't be the answer, obviously. Also consider how many devs are trying to make films or influence politics or sell addictive microtransactions and gameplay is a tertiary concern.
2. Create games that in narrative or game play repeat or support notions of idealism. Like read Iliad or Odyssey as an example- Homer was part of that culture and it's values are expressed in the entertaining stories he tells. For a more modern example, I'd say Tolstoy. His novels discuss larger philosophical concepts and ideals through the complicated reality of his characters' lives.
I guess I misunderstood you user, what I tried to say is that shock and disgust can also be entertaining in their own right. The whole point of macabre is that it's supposed to shock, disgust and terrify the viewers, but even that is fulfilment of a fantasy. After all, many people come to horror because of one of three fantasies that they want to fulfil:
The fantasy of excitement
Which is fulfiled by putting themselves in the place of a victim of the horror story, in which they have to evade constant danger and fight for survival.
The fantasy of power
Which is fulfiled by putting themselves in the place of the monster.
The fantasy of mystery
Which is fulfiled by just interacting with the darker parts of life.
The point is though that modern writing doesn't do any of this good and uses disgusting imagery as shock value, instead of using the shock value to entertain the viewer.
He certainly drew inspiration from his war experiences.
Most likely. But I've always found his forward to the second edition fascinating in how strongly he denies the connection to WWII.
The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Baraddur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.
People today forget how many people at the time viewed the world wars as fratricidal.
Disinfo sources are becoming irrelevant, as they lose all credibility.
more and more people dismiss mainstream media and any leftist/soyboy/feminist/faggot abomination "information" on any topic
A controlled society that is intolerant to non-merit, intolerant to incompetence and intolerant to sub-humans is rising, and once firmed, it will never fall again, given how much information we have now to prevent subversion.
and the other is a fat sack of shit that masturbates to the shitty sex scenes and food descriptions he writes
You make it sound like soft porn is everywhere in Martin's books and it isn't. There are pretty few sex scenes and they rarely ever take up more than a partial page. I've read all the books (the story starts coming apart the longer this fag keeps writing).
Now HBO on the other hand loves to fucking throw blatant gratuitous nudity in every episode they can. They try to throw a coat of "it's tastefully done" over it but it happens so often that even when it would be appropriate and the story actually calls for it, you still can't help but think "man (((someone))) really wants to show sex."
This is the ideal male body, you might not like it but this is what peak performance looks like.
So much this. Books themselves are ok. ASoIaF books are not eternal monuments of literature like Tolkien's work but nevertheless are solid especially considering scale of the work.
Its TV series went for extra edginess and shock effect and became just plain bad already in S1.
dolphin fucking autist
not best joestar
You are incorrect
Nigga that ain't this.
they didn't make pornography they made art.
It made me wonder how exactly Idealism would work in video games
Aesthetically, you mean? That would be Nier: Automata. And actually a whole lot more weebshit, too.
The point is though that modern writing doesn't do any of this good and uses disgusting imagery as shock value, instead of using the shock value to entertain the viewer.
Can you be more specific? What modern and popular dark type of stories books do that? (popular because in the every age you can dig out just plain shit literature and make you straw man punching bag)
when your fantasy novel cover is some green faggot taking a selfie with some guy's butt
I'd ask what kind of moron names their kid like that, but he and his family are Mormons so asking why they're retarded is pointless.
Japan is the last place in the world that cares about aesthetics. I just wish they put out a good fucking game, I don't care if every character is beautiful if it plays like the newest electronic arts garbage.
"Robin Hobb" isn't much better. Keep misreading it as "Robin Hoob" like a sad caricature of Robin Hood.
off by one
Good post, user. That's an interesting way of looking at it.
Japan is the last place in the world that cares about aesthetics
Ha ha ha… are you serious m8.
The opposite is true.
Do the batman games count? Nearly everyone and their mother has "PEAK HUMAN STRENGTH/AGILITY/PHYSICAL CONDITION" in their bio.
No but you could replace the sound effects with more basic ones and the game would still be fun. Everything after that just set a tone.
The only thing important in films is moving images
Ever watch a silent film?
but that doesn't mean it's the only important priority.
It's the only one that makes it a game so yea it kinda is. The larger your game the more you would need probably.
Sound and visual design all play a part
Tell that to older games like Tetris or brick breakers.
Also you faggots are tripping over yourselves for nothing. Gameplay in games are like sandwiches without the bread. You take out the bread it's no longer a sandwich. You take out the gameplay it's no longer a game. Still doesn't mean I want a sandwich with 2 pieces of bread and mayo. Objectively the only important thing in a game is the gameplay but the added effects make up the tone and occasionally play into the gameplay. Still doesn't make said effects necessary depending on the game. I could still play Doom without as good sound design. But I couldn't play it if it weren't a game.
Aesthetics are part of gameplay, faggot. Doom could still be a game internally and display a blank screen with no audio to the player, but you need some sort of feedback from the program to tell what you're doing.
Aesthetics can be in service of gameplay experience, or the embellishment of graphics and sound can be a motivating distraction from gameplay. Related to my earlier post, idealism would be a creative objective to focus on, not myopically cutting everything related to the other arts or disciplines.
Yes, a film technically can be silent, but Kubrick knew when music would elevate a scene. Or music can be a shitty substitute for a film's inability to create real emotion (melody drama -> melodrama.)
Japan is the last place in the world that cares about aesthetics.
Compared to where? From what I've seen, random street vendors in Japan have more sense of craft and discipline than most American artists.
Aesthetics are part of gameplay, faggot.
Yes but they aren't necessary.
but you need some sort of feedback from the program to tell what you're doing.
The only feedback you need are the necessary ones. If a sound is a necessary thing that's needed then it's a more convoluted game. Not saying the game is made better without effects but the game is still a game in the end.
Yes, a film technically can be silent, but Kubrick knew when music would elevate a scene
That's my point, ELEVATING. Not necessary. So basically you agree with what I'm saying. The sound effects in doom are good. But they aren't necessary to its integral mechanics. You could replace them with simpler noises and they would still be effective.
That's my point, ELEVATING. Not necessary. So basically you agree with what I'm saying.
If you took the music out of the opening of the Shining, it'd just be a long ass helicopter shot of some pretty woods. The music was in service to the filmmaking and cannot be subtracted. This is the distinction between the masters and everyone else's choices.
Your statement about Doom is probably true- many people likely played shitty ports where that is the case. But look at a game like Thief that employs sound to gameplay purposes.
If you were to make an "ideal" game, it would require the aesthetic element, just focused to objectives related to gamplay or immersing the player. Just like sound in films enables dialogue and music and opens a new world for filmmaking itself to expand into. Sure, gameplay and film are mediums separate from the other arts they can utilize. That doesn't mean those other ingredients can't be crucial additions.
Aethestics are necessary if you want your game to be playable by humans, see
If you took the music out of the opening of the Shining, it'd just be a long ass helicopter shot of some pretty woods
And again it would still be a movie.
The music was in service to the filmmaking and cannot be subtracted.
If you were to make an "ideal" game, it would require the aesthetic element
Does Pong have aesthetics? Is the sound of the boinking between panels necessary for the game to still be a game? You act like my statement implies that games shouldn't have aesthetic qualities or something.
I did see it and the fags wrong. Aesthetics aren't integral unless you're the kind of dipshit who thinks everything is art, which is to say that EVERYTHING is aesthetics. Aesthetics serve a tone but they are not required in a video game. Unless you're so much of a faggot that you think gameplay is also aesthetics which is where I point and laugh at you.
I wonder if there is good greek statue r34
There's a text game about romancing one
Assuming I know what you're talking about that game is shit.