Baten Kaitos

This is one of those series cursed by shit sales and forgotten, but I've seen the name crop up quite a few times recently for some reason, so let's have ourselves a motherfucking Baten Kaitos thread.

Two JRPGs made for the gamecube by Monolith soft of Xeno fame. To be more precise, they were made by remnants of the Chrono Chross team hired by Monolith's Tetsuya Takahashi, main creative director of the Xeno series, doing his old Squaresoft friends a solid and allowing them to go all out on game projects while he was making Xenosaga. The colorful palette of Chrono Chross can be seen in Baten Kaitos, except there it's fully realized, with some genuinely amazingly creative worlds and art direction. And while Chrono Chross is kind of shit, the Baten Kaitos games are anything but.

It is unique among JRPGs in that they are entirely card-based. Attack, defense, and pretty much everything goes through cards that are drawn at random during combat. In the first game, every card is either a heal/special status, an attack, or a defence you oppose to an enemy's attack. In the second, combat is heavily based on combos. In both games, you are asked to pay attention at all times and make split-second decisions constantly.

Surprisingly dark and daring. Eternal Wings starts out kind of blatantly as the most generic shit ever and goes to twists that were unique at the time and still aren't so common. Also the protagonist is an asshole. Origins has to be seen to be believed.

They're fucking nightmares for the completionist, and have tedious overarching sidequests. Eternal Wings has that one bossfight which doesn't allow for grinding if you show up unprepared. Origins can be overly frustrating, with even some regular enemies poised to delete your shit.

Dolphin. Here are the emuparadise links.
emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gamecube_ISOs/Baten_Kaitos_-_Eternal_Wings_and_the_Lost_Ocean_(Europe)_(En,Fr,De,Es,It)_(Disc_1)/66744
emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gamecube_ISOs/Baten_Kaitos_Origins_(Disc_1)/66092

Other urls found in this thread:

emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gamecube_ISOs/Baten_Kaitos_-_Eternal_Wings_and_the_Lost_Ocean_(Europe)_(En,Fr,De,Es,It)_(Disc_2)/66745
emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gamecube_ISOs/Baten_Kaitos_Origins_(Disc_2)/178706
cdromance.com/gcn-iso/baten-kaitos-eternal-wings-and-the-lost-ocean-undub-gkbeaf-gcn-iso/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

I only played the 1st 999999999999 years ago, but it was a godly game. I tried replaying it recently on dolphin but something stopped me and I eventually lost the save. Still remember some of the fucking beautiful towns and locations it had.

I might still have my copy, so I'll have to bust it out one day and play it legit. Same with the sequel, once I acquire it on ebay or something for cheap.

Also, I should have mentioned Eternal Wings is famous for its atrocious dub. It's not even limited to the VA talent, all voices are clearly recorded in low quality. Origins, thankfully, fixes that.


Why did you sage?

I was mildly interested, then I saw how easy it was to get. I'll post again once I've played the game.

You should probably post all the discs, though.
emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gamecube_ISOs/Baten_Kaitos_-_Eternal_Wings_and_the_Lost_Ocean_(Europe)_(En,Fr,De,Es,It)_(Disc_2)/66745
emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gamecube_ISOs/Baten_Kaitos_Origins_(Disc_2)/178706

Easily one of my favorite JRPGs on the Gamecube along with the other forgotten gem Skies of Arcadia. Never played Origins, but I remember some people saying it wasn't anywhere near as good as the first.

I want to fuck Kalas. Good games by the way OP.

I was operating on the fact that once they know where to get it, they'd find the second disk by their damn selves. But thank you nonetheless.


The only way you'd consider Origins inferior to Eternal Wings is that you have a fixed team of three characters, and it's kind of ridiculously punishing at times.

Actually the game just slaps a stupid filter over all the voices, even in the Nipponese version. You can disable it by turning on surround sound.


It's a step up from the original where you have 6 party members but 2 were flat out useless compared to the other 4 (they simply didn't have the magnus to make a full deck without conflicting elements) and of the remaining 4, 2 were only in the party together for very short periods of time Mizuti and Kalas are only usable simultaneously at the very end of disc one and end game so which 3 you use is pretty limited.

The "talk through a cardboard tube" filter is for immersion purposes. Supposedly. You aren't necessarily playing as Kalas.

Whose fucking idea was it to have Savyna's deck almost entirely fire and ice anyway?

Is this an even remotely hard to find or rare game now days? This is one of those games I bought on a whim in like 2004 or 2005, got about half way through and never finished. It's been sitting in my collection since.

You can undub and play with diosmios or whatever it's called if you've got a Wii or WiiU.

Isn't this the Speed Run game that is completely retarded?

Is there an undub then?

is this your idea of a joke?

Did you even look at the OP before posting that?

As a matter of fact there is.
cdromance.com/gcn-iso/baten-kaitos-eternal-wings-and-the-lost-ocean-undub-gkbeaf-gcn-iso/

I remember this game, it got great reviews when it first came out, though the voice acting was shit MUH BEAUTIFUL WIINGS

I had it or have on the GC somewhere, I got the shit ending lmao.

I think the idea behind Savyna was that she's the dedicated trash mob slayer. Fire and water being the most common weaknesses, and her attack animations being faster than all other characters. That doesn't make for a great character even ideally though, especially when considering the elements cancelling mechanic.

The 100% run, yes. There's an item that changes only after like a week of play (actual playtime, not system clock).

The mere idea of a Baten Kaitos 100% speedrun is ludicrous. 100% the game is known to be an insane pain in the ass in the first place. It has to be made in jest.

What do you mean? It's already been done.

I saw it used at a used game place for $29 USD. I have no idea if the manual was in it or if the disk was in good shape. I might grab it just to have in my GameCube collection.

I did not imply it didn't exist. Just that it had no sensible reason to exist.


Jesus, Baten Kaitos really can't take a break.


Or you could grab it to play it. It really is a good game.

It is still on my list of "must play sometime" via emulation.
I always liked the battle song from the first game.
It's gameplay trailer with that song was what made me want to play it.

I tried to play this once, I have a fetish for card game shit shoved into completely unrelated genres
I quit pretty early into it, it was super fucking boring, the setting, dialog, even the fucking cards themselves seemed purpose built to put me to goddamn sleep, don't know if it's worth sitting through all that if it gets better later

Eternal Wings has kind of a "we're setting things up to be generic so it can pay off later on when we take out the kiddy gloves" thing going on, but if you don't like the gameplay then I guess that's all you need to try.

Isn't Origins the one with the removed female player option? Is it actually significant to the plot?

Yes, Origins doesn't let you choose the gender of the guardian spirit whereas they let you choose it in Eternal Wings, but it was utterly trivial, just changing pronouns. It's basically of no consequence at all.

Reminds me that I need to get back to that series sometime. On a related note, anyone have/know where to find complete artbook scans for the first game (I know it has one; not sure about Origins)?


The first game, not in my experiences. It's not exactly common, but not rare either if you ask me. Origins though sold like shit both in Japan and out here from what I've heard (too close to the Wii's release; PAL didn't even see it), and goes for a good it more. Last time I saw Origins locally it was marked at $100, and after a few wings I didn't see it there anymore (admittedly might be an outlier, think $50 was the average at the time). Of course, I'm speaking more of local sightings; for all I know Eternal Wings could be kind of hard to find in its own right, but demand might be low enough to keep prices low and copies available. Of course, I assume most anons would just bypass the need to find or buy physical copies of either, and just emulate, or play it via loader programs.


Well if you're checking western sites/search engines, that's liable to be what you're going to get. For Japanese made works/series, learn to booru, or pixiv, or whatnot, as they tend to be more popular amongst Japanese artists, and thus Japanese focused aggregates. Though, even amongst those, Baten Kaitos doesn't seem to have too much art. Have a few Xelhas.


Could be that he's mad at shilling a site that pre-emptively removes games that see digital rereleases of late without being DMCAed in the first place? At least, I recall that being found to be the case, and mostly effecting games that got VC releases on Nintendo's systems, and PS2 games that got digital "remasters" for the PS4.

It's still immersion being lost in doing so, at least for female players (or guys that want to play as a female spirit guiding the male protags). Heard 8-4 censored a song in Origins too. Combining both, along with their considering Origins a favorite project of theirs (IE: no oversight), it's made me more than a bit leery of actually bothering. It took years for the spirit gender toggle removal to become known here, and it makes me wonder what else they might have done to it beyond that and the music.

That ugly fat bastard in the first game was a bitch boy for Questor Verus. Thanks for reminding me fam.

I know how to booru, but pic related.

Baten Kaitos Origins was the first time I imported a game from the US because I live in Europe. I even had to buy an Action Replay because of the fucking region lock. Still absolutely worth it.


I actually proffered it that way, it allowed the writers to flash out each character better. It also meant that all three characters were gaining EXP, instead of only your main three, while the other three were always behind and useless in combat.


I'm pretty sure that item was made 100% just to fuck with completion autists. What I was younger and had only like three or four games I was considering trying to collect all the cards, but when I saw that one I just said "fuck this shit".


I'm sure it sounded like a really cool idea on paper, but the execution was really dumb. When you first start the game you will have no idea why the sound is so bad and just assume the voice-overs were recorded in someone's garage using cardboard tubes they had lying around.

Not nearly enough. Admittedly though, each booru (or aggregate, really) has its pros and cons, but learning to utilize multiple to find what you want is key, especially for series without much in the way of art to begin with (obviously there will be overlap, but sometimes various ones will have art that others don't, for better or worse). You can also find some official art for things at times on sites like Creative Uncut, if that's more what you want. You're right though that Baten Kaitos really doesn't have much fanart in general, but the series not retaining much relevance in either east or west for over a decade (and most art they might have gotten during their heyday being before certain aggregate sites) will do that.


I feel sorry for PAL fans of various series, especially JRPGs. Even with the PSN and VC, which one might think would make for easy ways to finally release older games into various regions that never got them (especially when there's an English script already, albeit of at times varying quality), they rarely seem to get utilized for that (and while there is the option of making an account in, say, NA's region, or Japan if you know moon, that still requires getting import cards/wall codes; piracy and emulation/flashcart/loader is likely better than paying to rent a digital copy anyhow). Not like it helps BKO, or other games/systems that haven't seen digital rereleases, but still a missed opportunity in a number of cases.

Thanks to the internet it has become easier to just pirate the stuff I want and emulate it. With my soft-modded Wii I can just play games off a USB hard drive, that's so much more convenient than console piracy just one generation before that. I consider myself usually a buyfag, but I am not willing to pay the horrendous prices scalpers demand for some games.

While on that topic, I didn't know that "disc" is spelled as "disk" in the US, so I was at first afraid that I had gotten some fake bootleg. The US and EU GameCube cases are also quite different, I had no idea how to get the discs out of that weird US case, I was really afraid of breaking them. WTF were they thinking with that?

It's not
Though the spellings can be relatively interchangeable, "disc" generally refers to CDs and the like, while "disk" refers to other shit like floppies

I do as well, but system modding/flashcarting/emulation (whatever is the case for a given system) helps cover all one's bases, between not dropping absurd money (without at least trying a game via piracy first), bypassing region locking, and playing mods and fan-translations (though I don't think the Gamecube has any English ones as of yet; makes me wonder if that effort for one of the SRW games ever pulled through though). And yeah, loaders are quite helpful in comparison to needing actual modchips, action replays/swap discs, and burned discs for actual games.

Gamecube discs are rather sturdy in terms of being able to bend somewhat without creasing or breaking, but you're correct that multi-disc cases can be a bit more of a pain to get them out of. Namely the second discs, since usually the socket for the first gets a bit more wear (not everyone making it to the second disc for longer games). What are the PAL multidisc cases like? Do they just use an insert or something (the way PS2 and Wii games did) instead?

PAL discs have one normal embed in the back of the case and one embed flopping in between. Both are pretty easy to remove.

So, buyfag, have you made any progress in the game yet?

…did either of you actually fucking PLAY Origins all the way through? The "guardian spirit" in Origins attached to Sagi is actually a fragment of Malpercio's soul.

It's the first choice in the game, why did you feel the need to bring up the conclusion?

Ah, so an insert then. Also sounds like either PAL production made the sockets less tight, or maybe you just got lucky with used copies that were a bit worn. Again, it's mainly games with second discs I notice here that have a problem with the discs coming out. Granted, I usually pick up games preowned (when I find them at decent prices anyhow), so most single disc Gamecube cases, and the first discs of games with multiple discs, come out fairly easily (while still being able to lock into place; not like they just fall out).

Going to have to wait until at least next week. Got family over right now, and a friend's on spring break until Sunday, so it's not that easy to get back into stuff when everyone wants a piece of one's time. I did at least call break time at the end of one of the areas though, as I'd just finished the cloud area (at least for a first time; not sure how often Eternal Wings has you revisit places), so I know where I left off. Really pretty area that was too. Do wonder if there's a better way to organize your decks though; all too often I'd find myself either getting tons of defensive cards when I'd prefer to go on the offense, and then blow what offensive cards I'd get trying to reduce damage (as weapon cards can be used to block, to lesser effectiveness). I know what hand you get is luck based, but still.

Such things happen, don't worry about it.

Diadem then ? The first disk has you visit islands one at a time, second completes the tour with Alfard, Wazn and Duhr and lets you faff about afterward. I guess it's technically revisiting, but it's not really forced by the story, apart from one place which serves as your base of command of sorts.

Yeah, that's kind of how it works sadly. Origins introduces the possibility to discard cards and there's no shuffle time, but in exchange it cranks up the difficulty.

I made a photo of the two games for comparison. The first disc is like in a normal case, the second disc is on some flap that's on a hinge between the front and the back of the disc. To release it you press the triangle in the middle, like with most DVD cases.

The US case is weird as fuck. What are those things on the right supposed to be? When the case is closed it looks like you could push a rod through it to seal the case, I guess. At least that's the only sense I could make of it.

Checked
Diadem sounds about right.


For the sake of comparison, here in the US, with PS2 games having inserts similar to your Gamecube ones, the first disc still goes in front. Just saying. With the North American multidisc cases, I think it's likely a case of NoA (or Nintendo of Japan as well, depending on if we just borrowed their cases' design or not) wanting to save money on production in not making a separate insert, given the discs are small enough that two can fit in the back if you rearrange things on the production mold.

That's actually a good question and I really don't know myself. One would probably have to find an NTSC Gamecube case patent, or something, and see what purpose it's labelled as serving.

...

What the fuck were they thinking?

Such is the price of falling for the immersion meme. The most baffling thing is that, in Origins, the spirit is always male, yet they don't even use "he", the giant pauses are still there.

You're only always male in the English version. You still had the option in the Nipponese version.

Definitely an aspect that would have worked better had the game been meant as having dialogue be text-only. Would be curious though as to whether the Japanese audio handles name pauses better.

That doesn't make any sense. Isn't the "Ar" fragment that made up the group Malpercio male?

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You put your memory card in it

I think he means the four things along the edge, right to the memcard slot.

That lava looks like it would be tasty jelly

That fucking boss. I spent hours trying to figure out a way to actually beat them with what I was stuck with. I really need to actually play through the whole game at some point.

The changes they made to the combat system and deckbuilding in general sucked dick in Origins.

Is there any fan patches that fix all of NOA's retarded changes?

They were different, but I don't agree they were bad in any way.

Not him, but I really disliked the battle system in Orgins. I didn't even get more than 4 hours into the game because of it. Just the fact that there was one deck for your whole cast was really off putting by itself. One of my favorite parts about Eternal Wings was having to artistically manage all of the decks.

Also, in combat just seemed far simpler. If I remember correctly it was just counting to up from 1. By the end of Eternal Wings you had to have all of your decks memorized (including all of the numbers on the cards), keep track of what cards are in your deck, keep track of elements, while making straits/pairs with numbers rotating around the cards with only a couple of seconds to make decisions.

Not that I'm aware of. Also, while Origins was published by NoA here in the west (rather than Namco as Eternal Wings was), the group responsible for the English version was 8-4. I'd say the bigger question is which one had the idea to censor one of the tracks and remove the gender select for the player spirit, but 8-4 has apparently gone on record as saying Origins was one of their favorite games to handle because they got full control of the western release, so maybe NoA didn't care enough about the game themselves to have any direct input on the version's content. Not that that excuses NoA and their general trends towards censorship, content removal and memery; just that it's wise to be aware of who gets hired for what, as not every western branch/company does their own scripts/debugging.

I bought and played Baten Kaitos on release. I hated it, I stopped playing when a certain TWIST happens mid game
I didn't like it and even at the time there were some who loved it as a cult classic, but I did not

The thing is, those twists just keep happening. The whole plot of the game is a train wreck in the best possible way.

it wasn't the twist that turned me off, I just didn't enjoy playing the game, can't remember why, it was years ago

This is part of the streamlining Origins does to reduce time spent in the menu. While in Eternal Wings, you have to either make sure to max out your decks or accept annoying Pass magnus being thrown in, in Origins you can cherry-pick the cards you need with little to no disadvantage. Considering the different attack system and the discard feature, individual decks for each character would not even make sense. Combos would be far too easy to pull off, and it would hurt the challenge of making fast decisions to avoid death and gain the upper hand.

"seemed" is the key word here. The complexity of the battle system is hidden behind its perceived simplicity. It's true that the lack of multiple numbers on cards makes things look simpler, but the game does provide a decent amount of difficulty and takes an entirely different approach to master. In Eternal Wings, it's enough to take care of your HP every now and then while making sure you don't wait too long during a turn (and maybe check the number of cards remaining in your deck). Origins stepped up the challenge by asking for a more multi-layered resource and risk management. HP, selection time, party turnover time, enemy turnover time, MP, and equipment durability - all those are factors one should be aware of during a battle.

Jumping straight into the action Eternal Wings style just won't do it in Origins. What's more fun is thinking out your actions beforehand and gaining victory as a result. It can look like this:
- Do I need to heal someone?
- Is an enemy about to attack? (see action bar in the top left corner of the screen; you can even press R and check the enemy's delay gauge in the target menu)
- Is the healer or the person to be healed going to be attacked before I get a chance? (see question above)
- Do I have enough MP to pull off that combo?
- How many hits does my equipped weapon have left?
- What cards do I have on hand? (switch characters or discard magnus if necessary)
- Will someone be able to join my combo? (white delay gauges at the top of the screen, weak attack in hand)

There is much more about this battle system than meets the eye. Not everyone can grasp the gameplay elements and make proper use of them, which is why some people struggle with this game. But that's not even where it starts…sadly the controls aren't too well explained, unless you read the manual or periodically check the travel log. Besides just pressing the A button to play cards, you can use the C-stick to switch characters, press B to discard magnus, or press X to cut a turn short (e.g. in case you want to save MP for later).

In Eternal Wings, you can only take what's given to you each turn, with no strategic moves to do like switching characters or discarding* magnus (*without needing to be attacked to do so, or ending your turn after one card). You have little control during the actual battle, so the focus of the game lies on the preparation, aka deck building. There is also less pressure on the player as the stakes aren't nearly as high (missing a turn or a bonus most often doesn't result in someone dying), and the battles are much slower-paced. Pulling off nice combos is less rewarding since the damage increase is the only bonus, whereas in Origins you all get all these bonuses for long combos:
- MP gain (and in turn, more special attacks to use)
- More damage (accumulating hits also reduces the enemy's defense for the length of the combo)
- Higher TP bonus
- Knockdown (this buys you some time for another attack)
- Attacking the enemy when they're down results in a critical hit

That's it for my comparison of the two battle systems. I mainly wanted to shed some light on the ins and outs of Origins in particular because it's harder to understand and easier to give up on.

TL;DR: Origins has less deck-building complexity, but more "in the moment" complexity. I agree with you, the combat in Origins feels more polished and flows more naturally.

I'm guessing neither of you have played very much poker. Late game eternal wings had an insane amount of complexity for how little time you had to make decisions. It's true that optimal play wasn't really necessary, but that doesn't stop you from trying. Maybe if it had difficulty settings it would have been more obvious what the skill peaks in the game were like.

Maybe the game gets harder the longer you go, but I wasn't having any trouble with the battles. I was mostly just bored with the story.

...

I was replying to both people at once. I read the wall text and it just seemed like a condescending reddit post. It didn't help that it was playing up the complexity of Orgins while playing down the complexity of EW.

Playing through Origins and the Holoholo bird is way fucking worse than team Giacomo.

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What do you think we should do, SHITHEAD?

That would make the whole Kalas arc especially confusing.

There's one way out: you painstakingly refine a strategy after a several dozen game overs across a weeks' time, until through some stroke of luck or mercy from the AI, you come out on top.
If it weren't for the inability to get more magnus or grind a level or two, I think I would've really enjoyed that fight with much less frustration.

Also,
WAAAARRG LAAAAYYYZEEEERR!!!

Verus fucked this disgusting fat slob in the asshole. Did tumblr infiltrate Monolith long ago or what?

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did you niggers forget about Lyude only having light and dark weapons? this is arguably worse for many reasons:
at least water and fire share fairly equal weakness distributions among bosses, unlike light and dark where there's like 2 bosses weak to dark, i think the tree guardian and the boss at the end of disc 1. maybe one of the end magnus bosses too but i cant remember, also who cares cause way more of them are weak to light. not worth switching your deck over, just switch characters
he's also just not very good until you get the three spirit number weapons, and by the end of the game the only thing hes good for really is neutral power, and even then kalas and gibari are also good at it. lyudes definitely a "near the end of disc 1 to mid disc 2" type of dude until he gets outclassed by everyone else except mizuti, who is terrible at every stage of the game
but god damn i love lyude, there is something inherently awesome about blasting monsters with a trumpet

On the contrary, Geldoblame as well as Melodia is tumblr the villain, Monolith tried to warn us.