"If you're a real, dedicated revolutionary you're a reformist. There is no conflict between reform and revolution. What you want to do is press the institutions as far as possible to yield to just popular demands and if the population comes to recognize it can't be done anymore, okay you can talk about a revolution, but not before. And if you look at people who were really interested in revolution like Karl Marx, he pressed this all the time."
Why do you disagree with him? I've never understood why all of you are so anti-reform, except for those of you who want the world to be as shitty as possible and call yourselves accelerationists.
have you been living under a rock for half a century? look up 'neoliberalism' and 'privatizations'
Charles Watson
But socdems don't want revolution. They want "ethical capitalism".
Adrian Martinez
This board hates Chomsky because he's far better than any of us here.
Acceloretionism is pure faggotry by bourgeois kids who take Marx's words as gospel and don't actually care about the working class.
Levi Martin
Sure they can be reverted. And then we push again for reform. If they keep stopping us eventually people catch on. It takes time. Think dialectically.
And what about the times it's not reverted? SocDem countries in Scandinavia are all in the top 5-10 standards of living and quality of life.
Josiah Bailey
'no'
Brayden Cox
Can you read?
Hudson Jenkins
Fucking this.
Acceleration sounds appealing when you aren't struggling to survive.
Dominic Stewart
...
Jeremiah Adams
Agreed. Plus, social democracy is ALSO acceleration. Capital will flee counties with strong welfare, hence the rise of neoliberalism. If we bring back social democracy, the crises will escalate and revolution will become a serious option.
Carter Ward
finally.
Daniel Taylor
Marx wasn't an "accelerationist" you retard
Juan Morgan
One of the rare times I agree with Chomsky on theory/practise.
Henry Hill
Or your administration will just be deemed inefficient and you'll lose even more support for the right and the neoliberals in general
But don't let reality get in the way of your long term game
Levi Martinez
Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results can be a lot of things, "dialectical" is not one of them.
Ayden Rogers
Try reading more than Capital Vol. 1.
Mason Morgan
...
Jaxson Collins
congrats, now your country is crippled and reactionaries are on the rise
Dominic Turner
I don't give a single shit about socialism/communism in principle. If social democracy will garuntee I don't have to bankrupt myself every time I have to go to the doctor or work 40 hours and still not be paid enough to live.
I'm not going to suffer just for the wondrous hypothetical revolution and the fact that you are makes me think you're either muh privileged or insane
Justin Phillips
Do you expect change to happen overnight. Or can you realize it's a constant fight?
Evan Lee
A strategy that lasts 40 years and produces no results doesn't deserve to be called a fight.
Jordan Adams
Kek. Are you talking about your own ideology?
Josiah Rodriguez
So the fight against feudalism should have given up after 40 years
Ryder Parker
That applies to accelerationism in general. Class consciousness doesn't magically arise when the conditions for the working class become shittier.
Kevin Murphy
Social democracy, 1960
Social democracy, 2017
Such pragmatists, such realists
Yet the Left in developed nations have opted for social democracy every time, and those starving in poor countries have chosen revolution. rly makes u think
Jacob Cooper
Read rosa luxemburg, please.
David Turner
Even if I were, the fact the very fringe revolutionists and the largely mainstream and electable social-democrats have produced the same results in half a century shouldn't be something for you to brag about.
Carter Rogers
The fight against feudalism involved the bourgeoisie continuously empowering itself on its own right through its own institutions and increasing economic power, not asking the aristocrats for favors.
Your fight against capitalism has resulted in the working class being more exploited, economically stagnant and devoid of opportunities for class mobility today than we were 50 years ago.
Aaron Murphy
holy shit i just realised this is how most people think.
thank you.
Chase Jenkins
Your welcome. I'm new here so I haven't gotten indoctrinated by Marxism yet
Joseph Bell
Like, I want revolution, but I'm also a type 1 diabetic and cannot afford insulin and regular doctors appointments. I'll gladly welcome socdem reforms like universal health care for the time being.
If you're an accelerationist, I don't think you have any struggle and you are only into leftist politics as a hobby.
Evan Parker
False. Ad Hom fallacy doesn't support your claim. Accelerationism is a byproduct of the lack of or implementation of, reform. If you read theory Bordiga you'd know this.
Owen Miller
Another ad hom. If you work on your argumentation skills perhaps I will be swayed by your opinion and your appeal to emotion by listing your medical condition, but as of current I only see a short-sighted liberal that clings to sophistry.
Nathaniel Murphy
We mostly hate him because he's the pillar of support for anarcho-liberalism and other radical lifestylism.
Ian Martinez
Nice shitpost.
Man, this isn't debate club. I won't see revolution if I can't survive.
The choices are not just reformism or accelerationism.
You can be a revolutionary and acknowledge the importance of small gains here and there, anything that empowers the working class collectively is good.
But there are three things you must take into account: 1. This can't be used to make a gradual transformation to Socialism
2. There's a difference between forcing these reforms through union and socialist agitation and just waiting for them to fall from the hands of benevolent bourgeois politicians
3. If you demand social democracy, they will give you an useless program like Obamacare. If you demand the end of capitalism, they will beg you to accept Social-Democracy instead. Your bargaining power is relative to your hability to organize outside the boundaries of their control and the boldness of your initial demands.
Ryan Cook
So basically this board is full of people who want nothing to change in government policy, or want things to get worse, join fringe neckbeard communist organizations that don't do anything, and are just waiting for a revolution to happen? lol
Jonathan Gray
Welcome. The left is dead.
Isaiah Mitchell
No, I totally agree with you on this. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a socdem by any means. It just annoys me when I see people who supposedly care about the conditions of working people shit on anything short of jumping straight into armed revolution.
Austin Cook
Well…you should get indoctrinated ASAP if you have the time.Alternatively you could watch some David Harvey talks and see if that makes you want to read him.
To me it seems a lot of posters here don't give a rat's arse about other people in general,let the working class.I live in eastern-europe so larping about muh accelerationism is just laughable when half of my old highschool colleagues are either drug dealers ,cab drivers,petty thieves or in jail.
Julian Jackson
One of those classic quotes that morons who never read Marx love to drop. If he was an accelerationist why was the International so deeply involved in labour unionism and strikes throughout western Europe and North America, and why did he defend legislation such as the Factory Acts?
Nolan Williams
It's not a shitpost but I see how that categorization is easier to consolidate than accepting that your opinions don't stand up to logic. Look, I understand completely that many have physical/psychological issues that would impair their ability to engage in revolutionary activities but that doesn't mean your egoism justifies limiting the potential for an actual revolution. It doesn't matter if you'll 'see revolution', if you truly cared for change wouldn't you sacrifice your corporeal self for a greater cause?
Another ad hom. You could instead address your ignorance by taking polls to determine sentiment here in order to solidify the userbase but instead you'll rely on weak arguments that don't rally logicians or intelligent agents to our side.
Jonathan Perez
somewhat,yeah.
Do stick around if you want.
Gavin Campbell
Did you not know people are for their own self interest?
Well, there are a lot of misanthropic "fuck society, fuck humanity" threads that get lots of replies on Holla Forums. Most posters seem to be cynical, but more teen angst cynical.
The people in charge are wealthy businessmen. They won't ever agree to 100% of your demands. If you want at least something you need force to back you up. Either immense political power or violence. A bunch of left larping socdems won't even be considered by them. All Social Democracy is good for is raising solidarity for your fellow human beings. It won't ever transition into real socialism. As long as porky is in control behind the scenes, he will try to counter the reforms by lobbying neoliberal policies. This is what is happening in SocDem countries today. Welfare is great when it is done right, however, this doesn't replace socialism. Also, SocDem countries suffer the same problem as socialism in one country. That competition and outside influence try everything to ruin you.
Michael Wilson
...
Oliver Murphy
By catching on you mean people stopping voting for social democratic parties like they do now?
Noah Robinson
Have none of you fuckheads read Luxemburg? The diffrence between a reformist and revolutionary is if you see reforms as a means to push the working class forward towards class consciousness through the educatation of the working class as well as their realization of their own power, or as ends in themself. "Revisionism" only makes sense if there is an actual revoulitionary movement, at the current stage all we can do is push for reforms, while keeping in mind that these reforms will not free the working class alone.
Adrian Watson
This is a leftist board, not all leftists are Marxists.
