DISTRIBUTIST VS MUKE

Posting unattributed passages from Foucault is not really contributing, famalam.

What kind of meme ideology is this?

Well, Muke's fucked then because he doesn't read.

It's basically Catholic social democracy

Oh. Why argue with retards?

It explains why it is battling, the foucault pic should make it obvious to anyone vaguely familiair with him who i'm quoting.

This
Keynesianism with Jesus characteristics

Fair enough.

Distributist absolutely wrecked Badmouse (more of an own-goal tbh) and Muke wants to make it clear we're not all as retarded as Badmouse was that day.

But Muke is retarded.
I mean, I like him and all, but he doesn't know shit about shit.
That's fine if you're just a regular schmuck–you don't need to understand theory to engage in class struggle.
But if you're going to debate with an academic, even a memelord one, you need to have more going on than just, "I'm a Leninist who never finished reading The State and Revolution."
The best I can hope for is that he comes out of it without too much asspain, and without making us look too bad.

Yeah well Muke is what we have right now. Turns out anti-capitalism isn't popular in academia in a capitalist society but half-assed capitalist propaganda is.

As far as I'm concerned, Rebel is the only Holla Forums-affiliated YouTuber who actually knows what he's talking about more often than not.
Muke can do what he wants, it's just inevitably going to be cringy, especially when he is unironically extolling the virtues of labor vouchers right now.

labor vouchers

tbh one of my motivators to read is just so that i can engage in debate with people and hopefully bring over more to the socialist cause

Rebel didn't stand up and do this debate though. I didn't mean Muke's the only Holla Forums user capable of this, just the one who's actually doing something at the moment.

Same. Also so I'll be able to challenge other people to read more and have more to stand on.

Problem is you people need to stop associating yourselves with Muke. What, so some jackass wandered into Holla Forums one day and now thinks he's one of us? Shit, the average Holla Forumsfag does that. Stop claiming this asshat represents it, and while he's at it he should stop associating himself with Holla Forums too.

Guy who Beat The Everlasting Fuck oUt Of badmouse a week or two ago.

What would count in your view as someone who does have enough theory to represent this board?

just dropped in Muke is doing and good job. distributist is sperging out. Muke actually understands economic planning better, i.e every problem with central planning is equally a problem in capitalism, and every problem can be equally alleviated the same way. look up onions futures act for capitalists being retarded.

...

Lmao distributist being absolutely wrecked, what a stuttering reform

retard*, freudian slip

Jesus the Distributionist is sounding like porky pig right now

bump, it's fun, Distributist is sperging out

Yeah, no, that faggy-British sounding chump is a retard. Lenin was landed gentry, it's a pre-capitalist class. Definitely not working class.

Interesting slip

did lenin own any means of production?

They're both wrong. muke said Lenin was working class and Distributist said he's bourgeoisie.

Owned land, serfs. Pre-capitalist.

fuck, so glorious revolutionary Lenin was in fact kulak?

The campaign against the Kulaks was Stalin rebelling against his ideological father figure. His favorite book was called "the Patricide" after all.

Distributist just went full autistic screeching "there is capital in socialism because I say so"

"Capital is wealth that generates more wealth"

This debate is impossible to listen to. They're talking so fast under the pressure and the distributist starts fucking yelling on and off with his stuttering outbursts to the point I'm starting to get a headache

Yeah he failed hard. I couldn't stop laughing.

Agreed. Youtube "debates" are awful. People should discourse in a lecture-setting, or a bar-setting.

That's proof that Muke is leveling up. The whole objective of online debate is to reveal your opponents autism before he reveals yours. The person who spergs out hardest loses..

yeah at least there being a retarded sperg can be passed off as drinking too much

Isn't it more like Catholic statist mutualism, really? Widely distributed ownership of the means of production to whomever uses them.

So would it seem that it is
Distributionist: I
Leftypol: I
?

He's miles better than Badmouse was.

...

They need a fucking mediator too. Muke is tryinig to explain shit and the distrib keeps interjecting "BU-BU-BU-BU"

Who the fuck is a distributist in this day and age anyway? Even when it was brand new there were hardly any serious ones, and it's about as dead as an ideology can possibly these days. It's the ultimate hipster ideology, beating out even mutualism.

He's trying to describe. This is why the other guy's so confused right now.

H O L D O N M A N

If that's true then he is doing absolutely terribly. Isn't Muke an undergraduate?

DISTRIBUTIST WANTS CHIAPAS INGSOC

he's student. I think something like physics, i am not sure

pretty sure

yep, he's doing a foundation year physics (i.e a prepatory year before his first year of being an undergraduate student)

Most forms of academics teach you very little that would be useful in a debate like this.

-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-
IFIFIFIFIFIFIFIFIF
WUWUWUWUWWUW

H O L D O N

Isn't this guy supposed to be a professional? He keeps trying to cut Muke off when he's trying to explain stuff, and spluttering autistically when challenged.

Muke is putting Badmouse to shame here honestly, not to mention "The Distributist"

Who was Badmouse debating?

Distributist.

Same guy

The same bloke, but he flopped

Maybe, but you would expect an academic (in the field of politics?) to know things like the definition of fascism, which he has just had to have a teenager patiently explain to him.

Obviously he knows what fascism is(or at least has a definition of it). He's just trying to get Muke to throw more definitions so he can go back to his "MUH DEFINITIONS" contention.

...

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Then he's dumb, because spluttering and acting confused does not make him look good.

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Is this an accurate impersonation of the Distributicuck?

vocaroo.com/i/s034Jw2Vaw3d

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Yeah I mean it's clearly not working, but it's pretty clear the main point he's trying to make is to say that Muke (and communists at large) don't really want to change anything but just want to change around definitions and rename things.

HOLD ON MAN

HOLD ON MAN
also, check these dubs

you don't have to read to win a debate. Ethos and pathos > logos. Unless you aim is to exchange ideas in a productive fora, or some gay shit like that. Thinking that reading books will win the heart and minds of the people, very naive. You think Trump reads books? No, probably not even the books he has "written" himself.

I didn't know the distributist guy posted on here

"I wanna talk about family, faith, and culture because that's my main concern."

That's not how you do it, you amateur.

Didn't realize it was gonna be ghost-story time

HOLD ON MAN

Mook should tell him about Comrade Jesus and the Apostle's commune.

jesus christ, you lot are fucking hopeless

let me show you how it's done

Not really impressive user, check these instead.

Now watch these repeating numbers

honestly, by this point, i fucking despair

i too can cancer

F U C K

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And that's how its done, comrades

you did it, comrade!

PLEASE MAN, HOLD ON

It's not hard if people just spam out succeeding posts in the same thread 'til you get it.

Sometimes it takes a woman to do a man's job.

that was my first one actually,

Marxist feminism brinin' home the dubs

!!! == P U F F Y == !!!

h-h-h-hold on, but m-m-muh details

Who’s OP pic

R-R-R-REMIX!!!!

Katya Pero

H== ==O== ==L== ==D== ==O== ==N== ==M== ==A== ==N

She has a penis? huh.

Ha, I knew it when I saw the picture!

Really? Now I have to look her up.

muke has done it

Muke here, how'd you guys think I did?

strawpoll.me/12450677

Compared to Hold On Man you definitely came out on top.

HOLD ON

read thread, we are proud of you, I almost didn't realized you don't read books.

Flawless victory

C A N Y O U L E T M E F I N I S H

should have told him you can't build a magic playground to test political system. And that resources are not distributed equaly along the world in a way that not a single country in the world today can be self sustainable. How can he expect that a bunch o cities gather and produce enough of everything to sustain themself forever with modern technology and standards of living.

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as for everything else you did great

What did he mean by this? Also taking bets on wether on not he'll read the pamphlet

Tsuruko is qt tbh

gibe post-debate stream plox Muke

H
O
L
D

O
N

M
A
N

I came a bit late to the party but at the end I just wanted to ask him if he has an example of his ideology working. Have him held up to the same criteria as he tried to push on you.

Probably would've mentionned Sweden or some socdem country.

Shit poll. Answer this one for more detail

strawpoll.me/12450714

H-HOLD ON MAN.

Bad tactic to take with reformists, they end up just making out some small still-capitalist town with better than average outcomes as "properly distributist" and ignore all history and context. And then you have to have Chomsky-level knowledge of the time and place being discussed in order to arrive at the same conclusion every time, which is "that's not how it worked retard".

Though I don't think distribootist are socdems.

Except the "distributist" he was just debating doesn't think that decentralized owners of the MoP is maintainable or even desirable based on his own arguments.

Interesting, sounds a lot like market socialism tbh. Do you have the source to that quote?

He already said at the start of the debate there has been no working examples.

Oh nvm it's just wiki :$

He also said that it's unfair for muke to use the best case scenario to defend socialism while using the average for distributism. As if the average even exists.

Not bad kid.

Either Muke completely ignored chapter 5 or he really is trolling. Capital involves the private ownership of the means of production, of course, but either Muke didn't want to talk about what makes capital capital, or he didn't realize that capitalism cannot just be the private ownership of the means of production, because then even feudal and ancient societies were also capitalist.

Come the fuck on, Muke.

No, you're right, I wanted to avoid defining capital because I'm really not strong on that right now.

It's on my lists of things to brush up on.

I want to fuck whatever holes this has,

Yeah and I don't know if I should take the wiki's word or his because either he doesn't know his ideology or the wiki is wrong.

Then either it's an irrelevant argument or he's himeself holding onto a flimsy ideology.

Yeah, it's sourced there tho.

That's not wrong, it's just incomplete. Production for exchange vs. use is probably too hard to explain to Hold On Man.

You actually did pretty good at the debate. From what I can see you're definitely improving. Though I will have to say that part of the reason you did good was on the Distributist because he was constantly stuttering, but at the same time comparing it to his debate with badmouse I think that him stuttering wasn't a primary factor because it seems that it was caused by him not being able to properly deal with your points. The only advise I have is that you to take this win as a sign that you're improving and keep doing what you're doing, but the thing is you've got to be careful and not to get arrogant and think that you will win/that you're perfect. I know (or at least I hope) that you probably are not intentionally aiming to become like that, but it can be real easy to become someone like that after a win and then get destroyed. Overall though you did pretty good.

Also, another thing I should note to the people of Holla Forums is that part of the reason that badmouse lost was because he was very anxious at the time which can effect skills such as debating. I know this because I remember after that debate badmouse came to /leftpol/ to talk with us and he mentioned that he was going through quite a lot of anxiety at the time.

Hold On Man doesn't think any system is sustainable in the long run. He thinks you need to be fighting accumulation with reforms forever.

Then he's not a distributist he's just a socdem that likes jesus

Muke should be in no danger of that as long as we give him shit for fucking up and he doesn't brush off our criticism.

Distributist isn't "the people."

I don't know. Maybe Rebel. The thing is that tripfags and YouTubers are inherently attention whores, which doesn't work well within the imageboard format. I don't think we should try to represent ourselves except through discussion here, the spreading of our memes, and maybe the occasional raid.

I think you're really underestimating the efficacy of having advocates in "realer" spaces, especially for those who have had little to no introduction to the basic concepts of socialism or socialist theory.

I still think we should put someone forward as a n officially sponsored spokesman, otherwise the brand will be hijacked by profiteers.

Make sure the board is always in control.

Rebel cant even hold a consistent position for five minutes how is he going to debate someone else?

Fine, then nobody.

Hol' on mayne

Well I'm not real sure about that because while from what I can see Muke is receptive to criticism I did want to put that there because I don't want him to end up being like Rebel who ended up being an arrogant attention whore that no wants now.

WAIT UP MAN YOU'RE GOING TOO FAST

OI ILL SMACK YA IN DA FOKKEN GABBAH

I think you should take longer to think out what you're going to say. I think it would add clarity if you could sum up some 5 minute spiel in a couple sentences. But then again, that's more advice for HOLD ON than for you kek.

Overall, well done, you did good comrade.

there were also markets in feudal and ancient societies m8. Sure, markets are connected to the private ownership of the means of production, but the real issue is the dominance of certain systems

HOLD ON MAN

No, and you don't do a public debate to win over your opponent, you aim to win over the audience.

my favorite

Hol up yo

The leftypol advocate should be a Socratic kind of figure, a host and moderator in stead of a debater.

Well fuck, if Muke can win a debate, I can probably get laid.
Wish me luck, lads.

Heres the full debate if anyone wants it. youtube.com/watch?v=sY4wUgUDfe4

I think you should do what you did with your last livestream, and cut down the video to the major points and important parts

I think a lot more people would watch it if it was thirty minutes, rather than three hours

HOLD ON MAN

HEY

B-B-B-B-BUT WAIT A SECOND

YOU'RE TAKING THIS TOO FAST

HOLD ON MAN

Jesus Christ how spooky.

Shitty OC to celebrate

good job

No, that's a mistake. Anonymity is our strength. We can unofficially endorse someone, but trying to make it official ties the board's fate and reputation to an external entity, and that's no good if they fuck it up (and everyone fucks things up eventually).

Then I think the real issue is that we need to find or create more people who are /ourguys/ and are willing to do autistic debates.

10/10

Yeah, but they were mostly for surplus goods. It wasn't production for exchange. I think a correct definition for capitalism shouldn't focus on who owns the means of production, because I can easily imagine a market socialist society in which people who own machinery rent it out to laborers, much like landlords rent to businesses today. Instead, the definition should focus on the fact that laborers do not own their product, and instead have it stolen from them by capital owners because private property.

Thanks.

muke post cock

Not a bad idea. Will see

I'm not Muke. Also,
He's Leninist scum and I want his boipucci.

Recruited through what medium? Just goad more established youtubers into taking up the cause for us? Or through some other pathways?

This. Whenever I see a 2+ hour video in my subscriptions page, I think to myself "Hell, nah" unless it's EXTREMELY interesting

She's absolute qt, I find it very hard to not avatarfag with her

new phone who dis

Ideally, people who shitpost on Holla Forums will come here, and the ones who are receptive to leftism (or already are leftist) will stay. Also, our memes will drag a lot of interested people here. YouTube is fine, too. The point is we shouldn't make anyone an Official Holla Forums Representative.™ Not that we have done that yet, you understand–my point is just that we need to avoid putting anyone on a pedestal.

that would make it a not market socialist society

Wrong.
Today, most land used in production is still rented; that doesn't make it serfdom.
The difference is that owning land no longer allows the landowner to take possession of everything that was produced using his land.
Capital (by which I mean capital goods) are no different; simply renting it does not make it private property, because rental doesn't entitle the owner to whatever was produced using the rented property.

So? I don't want that to be a model for market socialism.

market socialism and similar systems such as communalism rely on all property being either personal or social.

Put the goalposts back where you found them.

NAM NO DLOH

uɐɯ uo ploɥ

Also, to follow up: I don't want to live in a world where all capital goods are rented to labor either, because that would probably be inefficient, and in practice, I don't even think such a system could come about anyway. My point was just that there's a difference between rent and private property.

You would have obliterated him if you would read some Bookchin.

HOLD
ON
MAN

Rent, unless its rent from a collective, requires private property. And there is no private property in market socialism.

Wrong.
Private property is a social relationship in which some person or group takes complete ownership over the product of another's labor, by virtue of their ownership of the property that the laborer used.
Rent is simply a fee paid for the use of a piece of property. If I rent a bottling machine from you, I have to pay you the rental fee regardless of how much money I make with the machine, even if I don't even turn a profit at all.

GOOGLE BOOKCHIN

And where is the evidence that Rebel actually reads stuff? Or is it just the impression you guys get from his attitude when he talks about things you haven't read either? I haven't seen a single intelligent post by him on here in the past two years, and what he claims as his influences is all over the place (muh Kierkegaard, muh enlightened monarchy). Anybody remember when Rebel made an awesome thread, anybody got a screencap when someone got BTFO by Rebel? No? And why? Because that never happened. Sage for offtopic.

This tbh.

n-name?

News to me. I didn't even know they used to be friends.

...

HOLD ON MAN.

Bookchin rejected markets fam

I just thought it was funny, fam.

yeah, I kinda got that feel from his twitter.

Someone give me a q u i c k r u n d o w n on what happened.

The worst part is that he told him to read Wage Labour and Capital.

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Huh. This is what happens when you read folks.

Hold On Maaaaaan

HOLD ON MAN

also foucault is a known homosexual, and such people can not be trusted

flag checks out

HOLD ON MAN

fuckin hell

Hold the fuck on, man.

Is this a socialism?

Was smashing the state part of your plan?

H O L D O N

T I M E H A S S T O P P E D !

So I'm watching this. I've watched muke debate videos before. And fair play to the guy, actually he enters these debates. But he keeps getting BTFO. Can you people address the issues that his opponents raise that he can't? Is it just they're talking past each other and not understanding each other's POV? Cause that's how I feel speaking to you sometimes.

I didn't watch the debate, because it's long as fuck and I don't hate myself that much.
If you name the issues you have, I'd be happy to talk about them, provided I actually have an answer.