Almost every steam review telling them to take out the stupid MOBA abilities

Well yeah no shit, noody buys RTS games anymore.
That's why they developped it on a really old engine and put in the least amount of content they could. They sold half a million copies at 30$.
They made back their money really easily.

Also Champions appears on the Steam Store as a 20$ purchase to me, I don't know if there's another way to play it

When will they learn that being a "me too" game is how you set yourself up for failure?

Except it wasn't a fucking RTS. It was far more like a moba than a fucking RTS. The reason it flopped was because it wasn't an RTS.
Age of Empires 2 HD sold FIVE MILLION COPIES and it was literally just a steam re-release of a 20 year old game.
You can download it off of the website. I have and play the game but didn't spend a dime on it.

It doesn't matter what it was. It's from an RTS series, people know that, and they won't buy it even if it plays moer like a MOBA
Also Age of Empires is the only exception, you can't make a rule out of it.

Well, still, they sold 250k copies on Steam and it has 500 paying customers playing it, it's probably safe to say it has a bigger audience of free to play players not coming from Steam.
It's speculation but it's pretty logical.

It's gonna be the same thing that happened with NuDoom multiplayer: the game will keep shrinking until the devs begin giving out DLC for free, and then finally add features people wanted and make that a last update. Then when QuakeCon rolls around they'll put Live and World back into the main schedule and continue the competitive scene as part of a "legacy". Then the event will shrink in numbers and they'll be back to holding it in a ballroom.

Because that's the entire reason why Champions even exists. Esports. It doesn't want the overwatch crowd. They're just jumping on the bandwagon to please investors and sponsors. Same reason why every fighting game dev now has its own "pro tour". It's all about esports. And it's already failing at that.

Quake Champions is the SFV of arena shooters.

Have you somehow missed the point of the world we live in being to make the most money possible? My point is that execs have forgotten than merit brings more money than following trends. But following trends is seen as easier, and thus retards in their silver tower fall for it.

Good post

So trend following is the problem, not meritocracy. Why blame meritocracy when it's not the issue?

Why are you spamming this meme with no proof?
How so? You have to explain why. Age of Empires sells like hot cakes. Any competent RTS would as well. Not only that but DOW1 and it's expansions have sold over 5 million on steam as well
Not if you see how long the match wait times are now and how it has to get players from all over the world to match with you.

Because they can't be wrong, no, it's the consumers that are wrong. Remember, the consumer is always wrong in vidya.

Oh and company of heroes 1 and 2 also sold millions. So no, all you have to do is make a decent RTS.

Why hasn't the esports meme died yet?

Because they want the embezzled money from tournaments, isn't it obvious?

It really was a win/win for them in the long run since if it did well they could hop in on the ASSFAGGOTS shooter gravy train, and if it failed they can just say "no one ever liked Quake lol" and wash their hands clean. I can't imagine they spent much on this abortion either.

Embezzling and fraud.

It is. Look at Overwatch League, it flopped hard.

What kind of mongoloid are you ? I specifically made sure to point out in my first post meritocracy was not the issue.

Details? I don't follow this shit.

Yeah but despite that companies still seem to be chasing the mythical esports audience.

They will continue to chase it but that doesn't mean it isn't a flop.

Tons of money gets sucked out of actual tourneys and shit into shell companies or to third parties to keep funds to keep holding them and to be pocketed by the holders, even if a tournament is a total shit show and it shouldn't have made any money the hosts usually make a way with or with more than the costs of setting it up and fleeing with the money.
If you want an idea, it might be wise to look into some of the TF2 tournaments which for a while were notorious for some of the "winning" teams usually ending up being connected to the hosts.

It's the same shit that happened with WoW clones, dota clones and OW clones.
There is no "esports audience", there are people who like to watch starcraft, people who life some fighting games, people who like dota, or LoL, and these people will only watch exclusively what they like.
Just like you can't make an MMO that takes players away from WoW, a moba that takes players away from LoL, and a hero shooter that takes players away from OW, you can forcefully make tournaments people don't give a shit about and get them to watch it.

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Because it's the most logical reason. Other RTS games also have not sold very well.

store.steampowered.com/app/290790/Grey_Goo/
500k

store.steampowered.com/app/386070/Planetary_Annihilation_TITANS/
500k

store.steampowered.com/app/459220/Halo_Wars_Definitive_Edition/
200k

store.steampowered.com/app/339600/VEGA_Conflict/
500k

I can't really find anything else that's been recently released but you can clearly see a pattern. Even the games that are extremely well reviewed rarely go over 500k.
If you've got something to prove this wrong then man feel free to post it, I'm just taking my information from what's available.

Because it's an excellent game and because of nostalgia people have for it.
That's without mentioning that it aged extremely well because of its very stylized artstyle.

It's just too successful to make it seem like a trend. There's no other RTS games at the moment that even come close to how much the remake sold, so it has to be the one exception.

Can't really comment on that, I don't play the game.

And this also not even to mention the shit with TF2's Trading economy being run by jews that fix "agreed upon prices" for things to make themselves tons of money.

It's like nobody learned a goddamn thing from watching the hundred "WoW killers" die horrible deaths.
The people who are into that shit are already playing the juggernaut, and are heavily invested and thus unlikely to switch.

All of those games have mixed reviews though. PA included(you linked the expansion only).
While Halo wars had by default a miniscule fanbase.

Apart from Vega they're all Mostly Positive.

Kek. Also the Grey Goo devs said they were happy with it's sales. It's what they expected since they didn't spend a dime on advertisement.
A genre isn't dead because some games didn't sell well. In the game industry some games sell well and some games don't. Also Halo Wars already sold on Xbox and windows 10 before they were put on steam.

All 4 of your examples are mediocre at best, that's why they failed to sell. You even admitted that Age of Empires 2 sold well because it's an excellent game. The reason modern RTS games are flopping is because they are not very good, if a new one came out of the same quality as AoE2 then it would sell millions.

This. Retards were saying 3D platformers and CRPGs were dead for years and then Mario and Divinity come out and they both sold millions.

or the hundreds of games that tried to copy Halo and CoD. It's like they can't understand that there is no reason someone should play there clone, when they could just keep playing the original seires that gets pumped out every year.

Which ones man? You've got one remake.
Can you mention any others? Christ you ask me for proof and then don't post any yourself.

I think I'd say that at this point in time you would not be able to make a good RTS game unless you copied older RTS games 1:1.
The reason why the whole genre is in a slump is because there's really nowhere to go mechanically, or at least no one has any ideas on how to innovate withing the genre.

Even in threads posted here about RTS you hardly find someone suggesting new shit. The people that want to play RTS games want to just go back to the stuff they loved, however broad audiences don't want to take a chance on a new game that does absolutely nothing new.
That's why RTSs are where they are.

Even before getting to the problems with it being more overwatch than quake there's the issues with the utter shit net code and the piss poor optimization
Fuck quake champions

Guess again.
Goo is barely holding on. Only Halo wars is truly positive.

RTS sells bad because the games coming out are mediocre to meh. A good RTS game would sell like hotcakes.
But there aren't any good rts games coming out.

Wasn't it supposed to go free to play already?
Oh shit that reminds me,there's a doom mod based on it that's coming out soon i think,can't remember the name of it though.

Quake Champions: Doom Edition is what you're thinking of. It's not out yet but we talked about possibly doing a game night to spite Betheshit.

It's sometime this month right?

Goo is still Mostly Positive, just because the 20 recent reviews are mixed doesn't make the whole thing trash.

Also that Planetary Annihilation was a failure created by the Kickstarter with the final release being completely lacking in promised features and with horrible performance. People were extremely pissed, the sequel is probably a better example.

This is why giving the game your own unique spin is so important. For example Sonic obviously tried to copy Marios success, but its emphasis on speed, momentum, spin attack and tiered level design among many other things set it apart and gave it a unique identity and gameplay style while still having Mario as the foundation. It's not just big name publishers that are doing it but indie devs too. Remember that game you played decades ago? Well here's a watered down shittier version of it with eye cancer inducing pixel graphics and no new mechanics whatseover made by people who only have a surface level understanding of the game they are ripping off. That will be $20 please :)

Why would RTS gamers shell out money for a new game that can't even match titles decades old at this point in quality?

Even with those examples there were a few shortlived successes, like FFXIV. ASSFAGGOTS are by comparison a completely wasteland of failure. It's like no one ever actually enjoyed the genre to begin with and the whole thing is a facade.

No it wasn't entirely trash but it was lukewarm. PA was a scam. DoW was even worse. Spellforce is buggy as fuck at 50$, gamebreakingly buggy.

People are desperate for a good product and they are not getting it.

Dawn of war, company of heroes, age of empires, starcraft. These all sold amazingly well. Outside of that 500k is actually a lot for a small indie team. Don't fall for the meme that every game needs to sell 10 million copies.

None of these are recent, these are from way before people stopped buying RTS en-masse

Name a high quality RTS game that has sold badly.
I dare you.

There have been none since the mid-2000s, how could I mention one

People stopped buying RTS en-masse because the average quality of the games took a steep nose dive. Dumbing your game down to appeal to casuals is just going to scare your true fanbase away while failing to hook anyone new.

These are within the last few years user.

I think it's the 12th, but don't quote me on that. There's some trailers on Kiketube if you want to see.

The most recent actually successful game you mentioned is from 2013. That's not really recent.
But I see your point.

DoW2 - 2009

You forgot the most important thing: Anarki can't stop being OP, making the heroes gimmick pointless.

Someone post the video of the lead developer begging people to stop playing Quake Live. I forgot to save it and it was goddamn hilarious.

People who enjoy ASSFAGGOTS are completely invested in the ASSFAGGOTS that they exclusively play. The sunk costs fallacy hits really hard and they are never going to stop playing the game they invested thousands of hours playing and learning and hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of monetary value into. Not to mention that ASSFAGGOTS is a team game, and everyone's going to be playing what their friends play, switching games would mean to also dump the massive social cirle you have built in the first ASSFAGGOTS and starting anew.

That's what I'm saying. If those games didn't have all that maniuplative shit then I can't imagine anyone would even pretend to care about them. It would be like making meth flavored candy that doesn't ruin your brain.

The Wargame series.

Wrong.
t. plays dota

Also no one has really made one that does anything better than LOL or Dota. Sure they might be casual but they both have over 100 heroes and more content than any other ASSFAGGOTS. Since no one has evolved the genre why would anyone play another ASSFAGGOT which is just a copy?

ASSFAGGOTS are succesful because at the core they are fun games to play with a lot of depth in the form of mechanics. They're as manipulative as MMO's in that regard, but their main advantage over MMO's is that they don't need constant, new, large scale content releases to remain fun. The devs at most release a new character or two every now and then and tweak the balance to keep the game fresh.

Tell me why am I wrong.
t. 3k hours into dota

How about you both just kill yourself?

Explains a lot.

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I never understood why Holla Forums is so triggered by these games.

Why is a group of people that suck at video games and are antisocial retards upset about games that require teamwork and skilled execution at higher levels? I dunno xD.

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Really makes you think how faggots that whine about modern games being too "casual" and "made for braindead retards" also like to screech at one of the most hardcore games out there.

ASSFAGGOTS are casual as fuck. Just kill yourself.

There is more to it than that, but I really don't care enough to list everything and it would take too long anyway.
I'm really glad I quit during the Warcraft 3 days.

It is not hardcore in any way.
It is a competitive game, yes, but the system is so flawed anyone actually wanting to play something for the sake of competitiveness would be better off flipping coins.

Truly there is no franchise that has been dragged through the mud more than Quake. First losing the neat inter-dimensional eldritch theme then focusing entirely on MP niggers. At least Q1 is still chugging along nicely.

Are you that same fag from the Monster Hunter thread defending microtransactions?

Ah great, now the bethshills are here.

Because a bunch of shitters got attracted to it and Holla Forums can't separate game from community/fans and they are generally tight about the games being shit but thye extend that to dota and no matter of bitching its casual or mechanically flawed or whatever make it any more true. I've yet to see somebody have an argument outside of THE COMMUNITY and mun one unit RTS.

who knew that trying to 'modernize' a game whose core audience chooses to play without textures in order to gain maximum clarity would be a bad idea?

Look retard, when a game is so reliant on teamwork, the community being shitheads does make the game shit.

I understand LeL being a casual version of dota but even LeL is far beyond the ability of most retards that enjoy modern AAA games.

You should probably stop breathing and drinking water as well since normalfags do it.
Don't like it, don't want. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of playing the game because some other people are playing it.
If that was true people wouldn't sink thousands of hours into these games. You might as well complain about build orders in RTS's or character builds in souls games.
Every player wants to be the star player of the game and carry his team to victory. Matches are usually decided more by how much each team is willing to cooperate with each other rather than by individual skill of one player, unless of course it's some smurf that is far above the rest skill wise.
So?
Only Riotcucks do this. In dota people do meme builds and try new strategies all the fucking time.

I define hardcore games as "game that requires a lot of effort to be good at". I don't know how you define it, so give me an example of what a "hardcore" game is in your opinion.

I always hated this strawman. Comparing ASSFAGGOTS to RTS is apples to oranges.

There's no freedom to do anything in assfaggots. You're completely dependent on the quality of your team for success, you're always on the same map, doing the same things, wacking trash mobs to build your plus 10% damage item whatever, it's just mind-numbingly dull. It's ok if you like it, but for the life of me I can't get the appeal

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Play with friend, LMAO…
Its not as bd as people make it out to be. There can be plenty of fun had playing with randoms.

Yeah, fuck off.

Do you think that maybe thats because the game has retained its appeal to autists who have been playing it forever?

Except ASSFAGGOTS is quite literally just an RTS where you only play as one unit.

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I'm sorry you are american.

Last time I checked RTS's don't have such extended hero mechanics.

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>Other bad RTS games also have not sold very well.

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A good player can solo carry a team of bads against another team of bads without issue.
The appeal is the teamwork and getting people to work together to win. The appeal is in pulling off a well timed wombo combo with someone else and killing the whole other team. The appeal is being that star player that makes the star play to win the game. The appeal is that the game is infinitely complex and there's always something new to learn or some skill to improve which keeps the game from being boring.

Dont make mental gymnastics and dont listen to retards, assfaggots are bad, unfun shit. Any game with "moba mechanics" would be a hundred times better without them, see quake and dow

My opinion is that moba mechanics should stay in moba games instead of being intgrated into unrelated genres because they only really work in the space of a moba in the first place. Overbotch is realle the only game that managed to make it work, and even then it's only popular because of it's characters and general art design rather than for being a good game.

The difference being trying to into Q3/CPMA if you were never into arena shooters is nigh impossible as the community is small and many will completely faceroll noobs. On top of this it's chopped up by region since you can't play with high ping. It'll probably be completely dead within 10 years. Meanwhile Q1 mapping seems to be expanding gradually due to the popularity of AD, and anyone who likes FPS can enjoy the fan maps or potentially try to into mapping.

I'm not mocking said autists for being autists who have played one game forever, I too am an autist who plays games too much. I'm mocking Q3 itself.

Nigger what?

I gave you reasons why people dislike the genre in general.
A game being normalfag bait and esports oriented does not inherently make it bad, but it does speak volumes about what playing it is may be like.

Does this sound like a competitive genre to you outside of tournaments where all members know each other personally and work together to defeat the other team?
Because it sounds like an elaborate coin toss to me.

Wow you mean when literally everyone else is shit you can win? Damn son
Completely dependent on the quality of your team for success. Come on now
Made what work? Overwatch is a broken mess

Why are you assuming everyone is dogshit?

It's what you said in your previous statement. I'm going to assume that this is not usually the case in game either.

Listen, mate. You are just trying to keep this on the extremes. You can carry teams even if they are bad, obviously if you are versus all good players at the same time it would be really hard. But that almost never happens and the base line of "bad" isn't that low.

Overwatch managed to integrate moba mechanics into an FPS and not flop, this is what I meant.

No, It means that personall skill still plays a major role in the game, and when even one player has a big enough skill advantage over the other team he can easily win the game by himself with minor contribution from his own team.
If you're bad, then yes. If you're good, as I said, you can easily win a lot of games solo.

In an average matchmaking game, everyone is of about the same skill level outside of rare cases when people smurf to stop bads. That's one problem with f2p games because making a fresh new account is free.

Good to know I'm not a brainlet, at least to some extent.

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I'm not the one who set the "extreme" conditions for actually doing well, the other guy did.

I'll take your word for it but it doesn't seem to be the case for a lot of complaints I hear about the genre

>>>/tumblr/ is that way.

It is. Shooters didn't have abilities tied to specific hotkeys with cooldowns on them until MOBAs became popular.

It's flopping right fucking now. It had a strong start but it petered out super fast and now Blizzard can't keep the (intended) casual audience interested.

why do you want people to tell your ass why ASSFAGOOTS are inferior RTS games every time?

I keep reading this but what are some solid proofs? Don't give me false hopes.

Not that user but my brother who plays Overwatch has said that wait times in matches has slowed to about 5 minutes of wait time to find a match and the Overwatch league thing did flop hardcore with it getting nearly no Twitch views.

That hardly maters because it's already a major success. It may not last as long as WoW, but if they shut down the servers right now they would end up with a massive profit.

As I said before, comparing mobas to RTS's is apples to oranges.

This is the mentality of diehard apologists and idiots that can't admit they're wrong.

Except, you know, a game flopping or not is determined by how much money it made. You can't really call a game that made boatloads of money a flop. Overwatch league flopped, sure, but overwatch itself it a massive success and nobody can deny that.

How much money has Star Citizen made so far? And it's not even released yet.

Yeah but I don't care if Blizzard made a ton of money. What matters is people are done with it so all of it's clones will continue to flop.

He's absolutely right.
ASSFAGGOTS and RTS have nothing in common besides the perspective and control scheme.
If you really wanted to stretch some definitions, you could call Diablo an RTS game.

Is it a shit genre you should stay away from?
Absolutely.

Well, they succeeded in selling a lot of copies of the game, but whatever their long term plans were, they'll have to scrap them now.
Depending on what those plans were, it could either be called a resounding success or a catastrophic failure.

Flop in terms of sales? It will be, and this will probably be used to justify some serious book cooking. Flop in total? I would be very surprised if they just burned all that money instead of just keeping the bulk for large salaries and personal shit.

And all of that money got either sunk into it's massive production costs or embezzeled by whatshisface. The shekel citizen scam as attracted a lot of funding, but i don't really know how much of that can be considered "profit" since the game itself isn't commercially availible yet.

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Dota borrowed some mechanics from wc3, given that it's basically a mod, but then it also added completely new mechanics of it's own as well as completely changed the focus of the game. As pointed out, dota and mobas in general have more in common with diablo rather than with RTS's and if you're going to call moba's rts's you might as well call diabo an rts as well.

A shitty custom map made in a map maker for an RTS game.
Today, its own genre.

You're not doing yourself any favours by calling ASSFAGGOTS dumbed down RTS games.
A shallow strategy game can still be fun to play.

POST YFW YOU'RE NOT A BETHESDRONE

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You're worse than a Bethesdrone

It's happiest pic I have available plus it doubles as a dubs pic, pun unintended
That being said. Don't you have a nuDoom playthrough to finish?

No, I don't play first person games

I actually stopped and reconsidered typing out a long winded insult to do some research to see if my views were unfounded. There is no way you can seriously tell me that this is one of the most hardcore games out there. This is Warcraft pvp tier. This looks like fucking Nicktoons Unite. How the fuck?

meritocracy is the reason they fail

It's like they took the corpses of all my loved ones and are fucking them repeatedly.

but user, you are right now.
it's called real life.

I'm blind

I think they know, but what probably happens is that news of "we're making a new game that's similar to this very popular game" attracts investors and increases stock prices. That's the only reason I can think up of that hypothetically is financially lucrative for developers to keep doing that.

I would like to know where I could find this specific doujin?

you're lucky i already have this open in another tab ye lazy nigger.
nhentai.net/g/178649/

nu/v/ in a nutshell
rest assured these are the same people who tell you they're oldfags and hate on everything japanese devs make

Call me when you can repeat what was shown in the video. Also, you might not know, but the game isn't just about big fights.

Die

fucking flag

They are tedious, low-skill, and low-fun. They're all the repetitive building-up of an RPG or RTS with none of the strategy, fun, or depth. Plus you're always matched with a team of people who are fucking stupid, because if they were smart they'd be playing other, better games. And when they fuck up there's nothing you can do to recover the situation.

You are only matched with people who are on your level of abilty. If you get matched with retards who are below your skill level, then you should stomp the game by yourself, if you can't, then you're probably just as retarded.

You can try to do your best despite your team instead of being a whiny bitch.

But OP, it's true. Nobody wants to play another quake/ut clone in 2018 and arenafags don't even know what they want, there have been many attempts to revive the genre and add modern features like matchmaking and cosmetics to attract a wider audience , without really altering the original formula in any way and all these games are dead.
Sure, you can still play quake live and easily find a match, but most people seem to only enjoy shitty gamemodes like clan arena and instagib which are the opposite of a true arena shooter.
The truth is the genre has been stagnating for 20 years and the last successful take on the genre is fucking halo, that at least tried to do something new without altering the core principles of the genre.

most of those were small indie releases with no marketing, and people who would normally play them don't know they exist. The few that aren't have been fucked up by retarded developers (Quake Live got abandoned by the players after devs introduced loadouts for some reason, UT4 got abandoned by the devs so that they could make a fucking PUBG clone, and Toxikk's matchmaking is absolute garbage and puts you in a bots game 100% of the time)

If Overwatch had basically been an arena shooter but with muh waifus it would probably still be popular anyway.

FTFY

Quake live was being abandoned even before the loadout update, that's why they tried introducing loadouts in the first place. UT4 could have been interesting but nobody really played it and just like every unreal game it was mainly used as a tool to develop and demonstrate the engine, and Toxikk is just shit. Reflex was good though, and the matchmaking worked pretty well with duels even with low population, but it was still abandoned.

You are delusional, Overwatch works because it focuses on teamplay and accessibility instead of raw mechanical skill. Halo did try something similar while retaining the core aspects of an arena shooter, and it is great as a team based casual shooter with fun gamemodes and vehicles, but most pc arenafags didn't like it and wanted a more fast paced and competitive game.

No user, you are the delusional.
Overwatch "works" because it has a win button that allows everyone to feel super-cool at some point. And it also has waifus and marketing out the wazoo. People log on, pick a character they think looks cool, use them, do something cool, feel like a hero, get countered by a hard-counter pick because that's the only way Blizzard knows how to balance, then change characters to counter the hard-counter they got countered by, and then hit the super-cool button again.
Overwatch doesn't work because it focuses on teamplay, although if you alter your original proposition from accessibility to "complete casualness" (which is damn near the same thing) you're close. Top it off with focus-group created characters designed to appeal to the broadest possible market and not a daring or controversial design decision anywhere, and you've got yourself a sure-fire hit thanks to the legions of Blizzdrones that will suck any cock with a logo on it.

Yeah thanks for proving my point, if Overwatch was a pure arena shooter focused on raw mechanical skill it wouldn't be popular.

That game is mechanically atrocious though with no balance, and design to keep the skill ceiling at the floor by making everything about supers and hard-counters (if a character even has one).

Anything is better with friends though. See any of the let's plays of shitty games, or people getting together to watch crap movies.

Overwatch is just a class-based shooter though. Like Team Fortress. The exact method to trigger the special abilities is irrelevant.

Don't knock that game's visual style it's great. Instead, knock the filename.

Do I have to spoon feed you guys every thread?

Yeah and nobody drinks water in a desert either, surprise surprise. Thanks Relic employee.

if nobody makes them nobody will buy them, so it is true. rts devs mostly seemed to fall off a cliff after starcraft 2 flopped onto the scene

this is like pointing at battleborn and lawbreakers and claiming that multiplayer shooters are dead

Those are its major issues, and that's why it's not growing. The MOBA aspect is overblown.

Don't bother user. 90% of the ASSFAGGOTS hate is because the average poster here is extremely insecure and can't handle the tiniest amount of self-criticism in the form of "wow maybe I'm the reason I'm losing". Everything else is just rationalization. If most people here were good at them, you wouldn't see this much hate.

This nigger right here is a cuck shill, nothing he said makes any sense at fucking all, the creative process on these games were long gone taken away from the programmers or from a single person with a vision, it nows follows the sane way a movie is make these days: Focus groups. They read about trends, look number and tell the workforce to make a frankenstein of a game, they ignore concepts of core audience and always go for wilder demographics, that`s why it`s so unappealing to us.

The fact you took all that and randomly rant about meritocracy expose you for the commie nigger you are, you are a nigger and you hould feel bad.

Wasn't MNC and SMNC the first to do that, though? They didn't last long, sure, but they lasted long enough. Overwatch will kick the bucket soon as well since modern multiplayer games are designed to be throw-away. See: PUBG, Counter Strike GO, etc.

Somehow this isn't a problem for fighting games. Apparently you can find people complain about veteran players in afps, but fighting games go further back.

I still prefer Quake 2, the map , enemy design and music are far superior. Quake 1 had more potential, but it came out too early. Enemies look too blocky, and the maps are all too similar except for a few highlights, The only thing better, is that you don't need to backtrack like in Q2, but individual maps are better in Q2

It's not flopping because of the game mechanics, but because blizzard is obsessed with banning people for no logical reason

The state of this industry is what it is, I just hate to see another once-great RTS studio go under and then blame the fans when they haven't made anything remotely similar to their best games since Homeworld 2 and DoW:Soulstorm.

Actually COD is new arena shooter (i can already imagine hardcore believers rolling on the floor, swinging legs and hysterically screaming "heresy!"). Overwatch is abilities interaction based teamgame first, cross between MMO and FPS.

COD is what UT was about. Players are dropped into small area (arena) and start killing each other fast, every few seconds, without spending much time of finding each other (because map is tiny relative to movement speed and guns range it is like … arena). Game is about dueling people with your ability of shooting. This why nu arena shooters struggle to tap market. There is nothing else left to tap COD and billions of its clones tapped this crowd for good.

RTS are inherently flawed game design overburdeneng player with monkeys work. They would struggle forever. The only reason they existed is technical limitations of time allowed to easy make cool looking large scale 2D action but not much of 3D. And everyone started to produce bazillion clones of XXXcrafts. But then technical progress allowed to make easy make cool looking 3D and RTS were left to struggle forever with their inherently clunky controls.

It isn't though, even if you ignore that CoD sucks. Arena shooters are named as such for a reason; the arena is of paramount importance. CoD doesn't require nearly as much map knowledge. Once you find all the hidey holes to shoot people from, the only things left barring you from mastering the game are your raw reflexes (largely dependant on age) and your knowledge of which guns are the best. Also, if what you said was true, there wouldn't be a large group of people wishing for good arena shooters.

It stands for "terveisin" you homogay
I'm not even a finfag and I know this although those twobassfaggots probably didn't

when jap devs make something that isnt lonely virigin bait its pretty good.
but usually they dont, hence the reputation.

You don't see a forest behind trees. Substance of arena shooters is getting into fights fast cutting off all other action to a bare minimum.

It is like first baby step of COD enlightenment.

There are more people asking for diversity and stopping sexual objectification of women in games. You get my point. There is crowd that cries loud to be heard but there are not much gamers voting for this classic "arena shooters" and participation in such games.

If you did this, you'd be doing terribly though. You spawn with no loadouts and no armor. Getting into a fight asap is handing a free point to other players.

Plus this is the #1 mistake new players make that results them losing by 30 points or some other crazy shit even if the person they're fighting against understands the basics of the game.

First it takes several seconds to get basic equipment. Order of magnitudes less time than time required to get in fight in the "walking simulators". Second naked spawn is not a rule written in the stone, this rule died with next generation of arena shooters (COD hehe) because wtf do you need this rule? Because you are cosplaying doom sp campaign and your mp was just a half-assed mod slapped on top of it? Pls…

>i didn't read bare minimum

Since when the fuck do you compare Gone Home and arena shooters for multiplayer gaming? If you're talking about modern games, you obviously move faster in an arena shooter and the maps might smaller in scale- the latter because of projectile travel times.

And running at someone with spawn health and spawn weapons isn't bare minimum? What's bare minimum? Picking up a rocket? An armor shard?

Game mechanics is playing a part, its a very shallow game.
Not to mention they hand out mutes constantly.

You are being intentionally retarded. Who the fuck are you to completely rewrite the rules of a genre then call the much larger group of people who say that you're wrong, wrong themselves?
Look, this is really fucking simple. The genres play completely differently. The selection of strategies that possibly lead to a winning game in a game like Quake versus CoD are completely different. The existance of loadouts and weapons which perform the same function but are "different" (and by different I mean unbalanced) adds an entirely new strategic possibility that Quake and other "pure" arena shooters simply do not have.
To demonstrate, take two players, who are equally skilled and decide to have a 1v1 match in both Quake and CoD. They are equal in map knowledge and mechanical skill, but let's say for the purpose of this, that they are both new to CoD and don't have any knowledge of the loadouts. Either player has roughly a 50% chance of winning in Quake, but in CoD the guy who picked the P90/MP40/whatever the OP gun is in your game of choice wins almost every time. It's like playing Quake and choosing to start with the machinegun instead of the railgun or rocket launcher. Even though you have the option of choosing the better weapon the game obfuscates that some weapons are objectively better than others for a given role. The same applies to perks.
Put another way, I'll explain it like this: Tell me why Counter-Strike is an arena shooter. If CoD is one, then CS must be an arena shooter too, due to the similarities in their overall structure. Yet nobody considers it one even though it's a classic FPS that most people, even here, would agree was fun for at least some period of time.

*insert webm of TB's rant against people who like old school arena shooters*

John Bain is a raging fucking asshole, I'll never understand how he has so many fans.

I can't even comprehension mental hoops needed to make such conclusion

CS is not an arena shooter. Plain vanilla CS. Death match mod may be (can't say about CS deathmatch i am not acquainted with such thing). Arena shooter needs high frequency of combat and kills occurrence. Most of the CS round time is dedicated to out off combat maneuvering and tactical camping. (Of course slow mods for COD such as SnD make COD not an arena shooter but camping simulator too)

I don't know what characterizes an arena shooter for anyone else, but here's my list of things that an FPS needs to be considered an arena shooter:

1. Movement must be rewarded, not punished. If you get an accuracy penalty for moving, it's probably not an arena shooter. Exceptions exist to this rule but they're rare. Additionally, movement should be relatively fast, and preferably have some extra components and techniques such as rocket jumping.

2. No loadouts, only pickups. Everyone starts at the same strength, with the same weapons, and you have to search the map to gather up enough strength to gain an advantage. I could see an exception being made to this rule but you'd have to work REALLY hard to justify it. For example, I could see a CoD style perk system working in an arena shooter as long as you still have to find weapons and powerups like normal. This is also an additional incentive to keep moving, since camping in one place limits you to whatever powerups are in that place. Having the luxury to camp one location (and deny your opponents that location) should be a reward for already having everything you need from around the map, not something you can do as soon as you spawn.

3. Weapon design should take the fast movement into account. Hitscan weapons should be designed carefully, either by making them hard to use (EG Lighting Gun), weak (EG Machinegun), conditional (EG Shotgun), or rare and valuable (EG Railgun). Projectile weapons should be rewarding to use to make up for the fact that they can be dodged and that you must predict your opponent's movement to hit with them. Also, this isn't necessary to be an arena shooter, but as a general rule players without powerups should die relatively fast. If you're getting hit and not dodging, it should be expected for you to take tons of damage, and if you don't have armor or something to survive that damage, you're going to die.

Grats, you literally ignored the point of my post to make a nonsensical statement. This entire scenario DOES NOT EXIST in Quake, UT etc. Explain how they're in the same genre if the strategies used to win each game are not similar. You cannot win Quake by arbitrarily choosing a better gun at the start of a match.
But they won't, not always. Hence, there exists a scenario where a player wins because they chose an assault rifle A which is better than his opponent's assault rifle B. Hence, choosing the right gun in your loadout is a part of fundamental winning strategy which did not exist in arena shooters. Games can be easily broken down if you look at the different strategies that possibly lead to a win. Camping is not a viable strategy in Quake unless you know that the main powerups haven't respawned yet and you own all of them, but whether or not you should camp in CoD is decided in a totally different way. Also, there are fewer movement options in CoD and no room for error because you die instantly or near-instantly, so plays must be handled totally differently. The strategies are fundamentally different because the games are fundamentally different. Yet there are lots of games that share these strategies with Quake that aren't CoD. It's almost as if… they're in different genres.
You are a shallow minded motherfucker. It is not the tiny details which make a game genre, maybe in music but definitely not with games. The person who plays an RTS plays that game for fundamentally different reasons than someone who plays an FPS and has different skills and strategies mastered.

This is entirely on what the players do. The game doesn't stop being a certain type of game, if players decide to prioritize increasing their stack or denying the other one of, over playing aggressively.

You belvie that tehre is target audience for such "arean shooter" defined un auch way and tha aduaince will play FPS only if it fits such narawo defention. Thing is most of such audience are satisfied by CODish game better and left for them.

You cannot win CODish game by picking "better gun" as opposition player picking same game fully counters your "smart" plan.

In fact it is. Shooters with high tempo of kills and requiring personal skill for win are arena shooters, This is only two things that actually matters for major bulk of audience attracted to such FPS. This is why "sperg definition classic arena shooters" will never ever come back in a big way. COD ate their audience.

Though of course

Your post is fucking hilarious because market analysts have already proven you wrong. CoD has a unique audience because CoD fills a unique niche. That sounds like a compliment, but it isn't; in essence, CoD introduced a bunch of turbocasuals to the "FPS genre" that would not have been interested at all otherwise. Even Halo players don't overlap that much. That is why no other game franchise has been able to take players away from CoD even though many have tried desperately to ape it and siphon off some of its success.
But that's okay, you keep countering my college education with childish scorn. I'm sure you'll stop looking like an idiot at some point.

Redditors can relate to his 140 IQ atheism and rectal cancer

Please don't type like a retard and maybe people will take you seriously.

They had no choice.

If hooktube doesn't work:
youtube.com/watch?v=kdJhm2WTuXM

this post was so fucking stupid it made me post.

Of course they had other choices, mostly getting drunk and playing football with their bros. If the same audience played CoD and Quake, why didn't Quake 3 move 8 million units at launch like MW2 did? Do you think that arena shooter fans had that many children in the intervening years?

No retard. Merit is something earned that other people give onto you. It isn't something inherit within your labour. What you are talking about is pride. I can take a massive shit and be real proud of it, but no one is going to think it has merit.

No it isn't retard

Quick chronometry of 5:00-6:00 part (why this minute i need to pick something so I pick [spolier] Pikachu [/spolier] middle)
For 60 seconds of gameplay.
3 combats. Average frequency: 1 combat every 20 seconds
21 seconds of combat total. Duration of combat: 35% of total play time.
This is just for minimum player count mode .

You are free to do same analysis for some COD, CS and PUBG match.

True, respect should be earned.

You clearly don't play arena shooters

That's actually a low frequency of kills, but it ultimately describes a characteristic of the match instead of the game itself.

If you maintained the same mechanics, except on a larger scale map relative to player movement, it doesn't become any less of an arena shooter. Likewise, if they just got lost throughout the entire match and never found or fought each other (like new players would do), the game doesn't stop being an arena shooter.

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What, are you suggesting that you want ZeniMax to make more money they can use to coerce independent studios into hostile takeovers?

there's no way bethesda still believes in this project, they probably already told id to move on to doom 5 for esportz and cut down the QC team to about two people

i think Quake Champions will get a small dedicated playerbase (just like doom 4 MP still has after almost two years of being out), so the few freaks that actually like QC will still get to play. but there's no way esports success is possible at this point for QC

I was in a bad mood and these made me feel better.

There's a MOBA Quake? this is the first I heard of it

TRANNY SORLAG
T
R
A
N
N
Y

SORLAG

Is he really a tranny or just a lizard that looks just like a guy since lizards n stuff.

best part about all this is
Overwatch isnt even a MOBA
they are trying to get their audience with WRONG MECHANICS

I have no idea why the hell people are talking completely sideways of eachother. This frog explains what makes Quake Quake and that the most defining aspect of it in multiplayer Duel (and by extent most arena shooters) is item control. If you take a look at any high-level match or any Duel match at all, it's item control which plays the largest factor in victory. Shooting and aiming skills are only secondary in this regard because even top players will reach a skill plateau where differences in aiming skills can only be minimal. And of course having good aim doesn't matter when your opponent constantly manages to get more HP/AP than you.

What are you talking about? sorlag is a girl

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Most of the faggots who are on this board are around 18 years old. It's not surprising most of them don't know what they are talking about.

I know you're baiting but in case any newfag takes you as gospel here's an image from the manual of quake 3.

WEW
It must be bombing hard because they're giving out free copies and currency to people who tried the beta.

meritocracy is a meme, that is why bad game developers fail and good game developers succeed, right?

lol sounds like meritocracy is working

(((Zenimax))) Listening to customers
HAHAHAHA wow. OP you're a fucking moron.

This only applies to a fraction of developers, just like any other form of "meritocracy." The rich want you to believe that they're all super geniuses from the valley but if you've spent any time around them, it's painfully obvious that they're not.

They just sent me game codes.

as someone who is in the industry, this is very true. The majority are idiots. The hard working people get fired and fucked over, their wages are stolen by their employers, they aren't credited for the work they did.

Who in their fucking right mind would want to be apart of this shithole.

Well make sure to tell them to fucking fix the game in the steam forums/reviews then user.

I'll add too, I'm only in this industry in a training role, I'm no longer directly involved in the actual development side due to what I mentioned here. Most of my training involves "why you'd never want to work for these fuckers" and "how to make your own studio so you don't have to work for pricks"

Oh i'm sorry,i genuinely didnt know
female lizards hotter though

The sooner this abortion of a game dies and the sooner Diabotical gets released, the better.

Lost? >>>/somethingawful/

Are you surprised?

>>>/furry/

that's not how that works man

Homos not welcome.

I really want to get into a modern arena shooter so i just bought Quake Live instead. Had an absolute blast on an instagib server. What is the reason for which people hate QL? I understand there have been some patches that fucked it up over the years. Also, QChampions is a complete travesty.

There was the patch which forced loadouts onto the game but every server seems to have it disabled.

Some players, generally CPMA and QW, hate VQ3, which Quake Live was a web port of. The reasons are typically because of less movement mechanics or not being able to airstrafe.

...

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what

Hey Vee

That has nothing to do with removing a shitty feature in a shitty game made by a shitty unsuccessful dev team.

The loadouts thing killed it. I would still play it if I could find any servers with people on them. Nowadays I just play Xonotic, because there's still a small but consistently active community for it.

Because they're for casuals. Real pros played run kitty run. Dota doesn't even have a linkin park song constantly playing in the background.

What the fuck did I just read?

A complete retard that thinks that liars have merit.

...

Besides the servers and FPS linked to speed, i think this was the worst part of this whole game
In which some are wrong and incorrect, because id is now linked to an RPG dev, who doesn't give a shit about keeping up with lore
Which is why QC has a bunch of lore related shit