What is Holla Forums's opinion of Kreia and specifically her philosophy on the Jedi/ The Force?

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he's boring AND his hair is dumb
the end

>She's a fucking sith lord who would and without question backstab you the second you presented her with a good opportunity

How about you make a fucking post, and not embed some youtube videos.

And the shill outs himself instantly.
Doesn’t comprehend the setting.
And yet she killed sith lords, so wrong.

good choice user

Yes
Because they were weaker than her.
You fucking retard.
You got fucking played

Bioware wishes they could have wrote that game. They can't write their way out of a fucking paper bag while held at gunpoint. They don't understand the word "nuance" and can't into believable people with believable motives.

That's not a very good point to bring up considering Sith would leap at any chance to take one another out for the tiniest of transgressions such as not saying hello in passing. sage for double post

She makes a good point (in fact several) but her philosophy falls apart when you realize it basically just boils down to removing force users from the galaxy by self-imposed exile. The fact is Star Wars' universe is doomed no matter what you do. It's not called Star Peace. The very existence of the force basically means the light side will always win but there will always be conflict caused by the dark side, so, like I said, the universe is doomed to endless conflict with the occasional happy ending and peace for a thousand years here and there.

Still, I really like Kreia as a character. Probably my favorite Star Wars character.

Wow. That’s such a point in your favor. Totally proves you right. About anything at all. Yep.

Shit, didn't mean to embed that because it had already been posted. IGNORE ME!

the whole of the philosophical differences are fundamentally contrived to give and excuse for people to hit themselves with lazor swords. they lack constancy with themselves abandon concepts of duty and honor to reduce man to his base passions and to say that any passion is selfish even love of ones fellow man.

Kira exists and it written to contradict the player. all her self defeating words her failures her past and the god awful ending that was shat out for her never to be polished. but at its core shit. did anyone come forward and say you know we did have a story we wanted to finish but we cut it for time constraints or did they say we did not polish it enough? she was there to be the big baddie at the end. to exist as opposition to the player good or bad. thing one and thing two to challenge the player in the same way. LOL sith cant just co-exist that would be stupid. McPlanetKing addict cant help but be a fat ass and sleeps with razors is not edgy enough to try and fuck with you. because he hate kira that's why he works for her at he end. even if you decide that your going to kite his bitch ass with a pair of pistols he will serve his dom to his dying breath. oh you don't like the pain she hurt you well just fucking kill yourself or quit being so fucking edgy.

The idea that the sith are some sort of will to power and the jedi are opposed to this is desperate fanboys trying to make sense of a philosophy that never existed in the first place. you think george ever bothered to really read into budism, Christianity, stoicism any philosophical backing for his red team vs green team match up? that's it,i got to say i prefer the EU ideas the filled holes but at the end of the day none of it is consistent with the original trilogy & prequels. and you know that Disney is going to rub their circumstanced cock all over it picking out comedic features to emulate and fill with soulless husks of characters.

Kreia recognizes that the Force has a will and guides the galaxy towards continuous struggle, and she resents that fact even though it clearly creates countless opportunities for people to struggle, overcome, and grow, and she wants to destroy the force even though its absence could very well lead to centuries of apathy, which she regards as worse than death. Worst of all is that you cannot call her out on her hypocrisy.

this is actually possibly the only good thing that came out of the horrendous new jedi order books. basically the jedi order decided that they needed to master both light side and dark in order to adequately prepare for/understand/learn to beat the "true" dark side, and at the very very end Luke Skywalker was like "that shit's retarded, this whole thing is retarded, either we're going to be pure good guys or we might as well be the bad guys"

She knows this herself. Despite her all ramblings about it, she was just a bitter old woman by the end of the day who wishes to see the brighter future. In the player character, she sees it. That is why all the 4D chess, and in the end she still cannot let go of her resentments so she just sets up a dramatic end for herself with you in charge of the future.

It wasn't to exile force, she literally was able to get rid of the force and take away the galaxies connection to the force.

No, she wasn't. The Exile was a rip in the force, Kreia didn't do that. That was just something that happened to the Exile on Malachor 5.

and then the Exile and Revan die off screen befire ToRtanic starts because that won't be the most retarded thing to do with their characters.

I bet kreia was a cutie when she was young.

HER MOTHER'S FACE!

I went to look up lewds of Kreia to make a joke about how she's a GILF, but there is only 3 of them and they are all deviant art tier.

Real talk, would you guys bone gilf kreia under some circumstances or is it a hard no?

If I was a Miraluka, then perhaps I would.

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That's one of the things I don't get about TOR. I assumed, the way they described in TSL, is that Visaas is the last of her kind as the Miralukan homeworld was obliterated and we never see another one the entire game, but in TOR, they are fucking everywhere. It's like they breed like rabbits to the point they are about 50% of the galaxies population. This is of course if we are going by the amount of Miralukans we meet in TOR. It's also the same with Cathar. I thought the Mandos completely annihilated their population, but apparently not.

The biggest flaw with Kreia is that retcons to the Force (before and after) makes her philosophy impossible and unworkable. Especially during the game where Jedi are shown to basically become an embodiment of their code out of necessity and violating it would really fuck them over.

Malek was lame as hell… something the Sith on Korriban seemed aware of. Was there an interview where this silliness got emphasized?

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That was a Miraluka colony world, actually, not their homeworld. And the Cathar survived through colonies, as far as I know.

No, but that's the general feel of the game. They never bothered to emphasize what a dramatic shift in leadership would do to something such as the Sith Empire. Bioware just completely fucking forgot about something as important as that. Nobody split off into their own "Revanite" bands nor was there anyone questioning what happened to their GREATEST FUCKING ASSET. So for some reason, everyone in the Imperial chain of command, acolytes and lords included, never issued any Inquisitions or splintered after Revan was captured. Atleast they somewhat fixed this issue in Dragon Age: Origins with Loghain having an Iron Fisted attitude towards dissidents.

Thanks for clearing that up, Satan. It's been a little bit since I've played the game. I thought, for some reason, that it was their homeworld.

Killing other Sith Lords is a Sith Lord tradition.

I like the Sith Empire and their general aesthetic, but I want to know how someone creates a galaxy spanning autocracy based on lies, corruption and backstabbing. That shit would collapse in less than a year. How do you manage to get people who's hobby is assassinating both friends and rivals into the same room to accomplish anything?

That sounds like just about every tyrannical government in history, so probably however the irl ones did plus what you need for governing space Besides, the Galactic Empire had plenty of that, with imperial subjects competing for the Emperor's favor.

It took Stalin several years and a bit of Hitler working him over with paranoia before he really started to do that shit. Sith will outright kill each other on the spot no questions for no benefit purely to prove they're the strongest, the Rule of Two exists purely to stop Sith apprentices from killing the Master before their training is complete.

There are already 2 other Star Wars threads up, you know.

You don't know that getting rid of the Force would lead to that. Even in the Nar Shaddaa scene that became a huge point of debate, you don't lose influence with her for helping people as long as you pick the right dialogue options, so she's clearly not dead set on creating needless struggle everywhere. Certain types of conflict can help someone grow, but not all conflict does.

That was probably the most retarded moment in the EU, actually. Just when they'd finally managed to become a bit more mature, they went back to a hard light/dark dichotomy because most Star Wars fans are only capable of processing "big bad evil guy with red lightsaber fights ultra pure boy scout with blue or green lightsaber, boy scout wins" and they need to sell action figures. This of course ignores the fact that Luke struggles with resisting the temptation to give in to the anger that consumed his father, meaning he's a believable human character and not a perfect boy scout. The old Jedi Order's failings were the result of people pretending to be boy scouts when they weren't, and it's kind of amazing how the people who made the decision to revert the nuance introduced by NJO don't understand that they embody the same mentality that got the Jedi destroyed. They seem to want all their heroic characters to be incorruptible saints instead of just being people who do heroic things while still having the same difficulties with life and getting along that anyone else experiences. That's how we got Greedo shooting first.

Nothing before that makes her philosophy unworkable. It's possible to come to a Kreia-like view of the Force without ever invoking the EU, let alone Kreia herself. All you have to do is recognize that as Yoda and Obi-Wan said, belief is an important part of how the Force works. Combine that with a thousand generations of powerful Force users believing that the Force works a certain way and maybe it could start working that way.

I can understand the Galactic Empire withstanding because only the Emperor was a Sith Lord. You had a variety of people who joined either because they wanted power, money to support their family or out of loyalty to a system that brought peace and stability to an otherwise chaotic galaxy. But with the Sith Empire, the leadership either feared for their life or became as the Sith because they worked directly with a Lord or one of their acolytes/neophytes. The Sith Empire was kill or be killed while the Galactic Empire was much like the British Empire with the people being able to rule themselves while still having to obey the overarching laws of Britannia. People like Thrawn are drawn to the Galactic Empire but would be absolutely repulsed by the Sith Empire. But for some reason the Ascendancy still sided with the Sith Empire in TOR because Thrawn joined the Galactic, I guess?

Ok, so the Sith Empire is more like a tradional monarchy I guess? But instead of your family fighting over the throne, it's every bloke who can use the force?

Deserved better than being retconned into the shitter by Bioware in TORtanic, really enjoyed her philosophical lectures and the debates.

It makes more sense when you put it that way. Vitiate is the Emperor and every lord is a noble who can enforce their powers directly or through their acolytes onto their slaves and subjects. But instead of trying to help their people, they actively fuck them over through mass slaughter and experimentation. The thing that is different is that Vitiate does jack shit and the Dark Council does everything instead. They call the shots on who get's the axe next and where their power base goes. Vitiate only steps in to curb stomp retards who think they can take out the Emperor.

It's 2 a.m. where I am, so my typing is getting a little retarded. I'm going to bed for the night and will talk more if the thread is still active in the morning. Had a nice chat tonight boyos.

To do that is to ignore everything except the first three movies, this includes the game she is in herself, that kind of bullshit doesn't fly with me user.

Is it? Just because somebody gets Light or Dark Mastery doesn't mean the Force inherently works on a light or dark basis. It could just be a psychological thing. The more certain you are of yourself, the easier it is to focus on something, including channeling Force power.

So you didn't actually read my fucking post or reading more into it then what I've actually written, yeah that figures with you Torpedos. Listen here you faggot, the game outright establishes constantly what Force dependency is and does to Jedi of all stripes including the Sith and Kreia herself. By the very game's own story and explanation it is actually impossible for her philosophy to work any Jedi who followed that philosophy would simply just become an embodiment of that philosophy to it's extreme or be a gimped Jedi who can never really tap into the force as well as any other Jedi who doesn't go all the way. That is what I'm pointing out, nothing I said establishes that the force must adhere to Good and Evil but that the Jedi by the game's own story become that way because they have to.

She was so easy to beat, just death choke the bitch

Maybe that's why Kreia was looking for a way to get rid of the Force and was annoyed when people were dependent on it to the exclusion of normal skills. Since so many Force users were prone to becoming extremists of one variety or another for whatever reason, she wanted people to rely on non-Force abilities and came to believe that the only way to truly achieve a clear perspective on life was to give up the Force. Even supposing that there isn't a way to achieve mastery outside of going full light or full dark, her idea is that being a gimped Jedi is better than being a cartoon character caricature of a person.

Okay I'm gonna have to ask this, did you actually play the game? Because from the way you post I get the feeling you haven't played the game at all.

I never played the games at all, I just watched the video embedded in the first post in this thread. According to my memory of that video, I'm pretty sure the issue was that both the Jedi and the Sith were heavily reliant on the Force for everything and that the Force itself actually had its own will: to destroy the Sith. The Force would puppeteer and manipulated everyone and everything in order to attain its goal of the annihilation of the Sith. The death of the billions of innocents you're referring to that she mentions? I'm pretty sure she literally, when she says that line, within the very minute of the delivery of that line, talks about how the Force is controlling everyone.

I have absolutely no idea how you missed that.

He did a really nice follow up on Grey Jedi. Both of these are a really good listen.

If you didn't know that the whole point of Kreia was wanting to get rid of the Force because of the damage it causes regardless of how much power you can gain from it, you didn't play the game.

Instead of following a doctrine blindly, she sought to discover the true nature of the Force and eventually came to hate it. There is no perfect doctrine that can be followed, and she could not devise one. The Force is a chaotic power. Both the Jedi and Sith doctrines are self-destructive and result in the loss of a person's identity and goals.

This.

Do you know how you sound?

Not quite, destroying the Sith would still bring an imbalance which is what the force want to undo. Sith Empires and people are part of that destruction but Dark Side users will always appear.

Between what you said, and another user's line about how the force may be shaped by the will or beliefs of the Jedi, I am starting to think of another franchise.

I think you're the one who didn't.

I don't agree with her wanting to destroy the force, but I do agree with her on the topic of the Sith/Jedi. A true mastery of the force would be the ability to use it without aligning yourself with either extreme.

Chris Avellone is to Star Wars what Garth Ennis is to superhero comics.

I take it that you don't like the man.

DIS

both are butthurt manchildren who hate writing for the setting they were given; and they let out their butthurt in sad turds of revenge-fantasy/dweeb deconstruction attempts.

SAD

I'd like to make an uneducated guess.
>>>Holla Forums

George Lucas himself was personally butthurt over Kreia and so wanted her retconned.

Her plan was to use you to destroy the force. They even talk about it at the ending of the game. If she succeeded there would be no more Jedi or Sith and people could actually progress since the universe of starwars is fucking shit with slavery and evils rampant but the Jedi don't give a shit about that, their entire fucking grip on the government is basically to make sure Sith don't rise to power rather than caring about the average peasant.

Force is one of the most retarded aspects of star wars so she'd be doing the franchise a favour.
force
force
force
Wow, what a good thing it is.

Seeing how the original trilogy was very different compared to his "vision", why does it even matter?

wew

Eh, if all these things happen anyways under the "good" side's watch, and there is an entire alien race just waiting to come in and mop up those Force touched races (that they made) then getting rid of the Force does jack shit besides stopping Sith who become like Darth Nihilus.

That was her dream, not her plan, she had no way of achieving it. Again: She didn't have the power to sunder people from the force. That's why she's curious about the Exile, she hoped to learn how he was severed from the force, but unless I'm mistaken it was something specific to him and not something she was able to replicate.

It's also what differentiates it from other Sci-Fi.

It's not even sci-fi, just fi

The jedi seemed to think she could. They literally said how scared they were that her and you could literally kill the force and were doing so.

I've heard it referred to as Science Fantasy. Either way, it's still got the trappings of Sci-Fi on the surface.

It's shit. Everybody, except Socrates, knows that women can't into philosophy.

Also, that's a retarded philosophy regardless. Oh, gee, we should get rid of all the knights and wizards because they are too scary! It's the space mysticism equivalent of nuclear disarmament. The force is aristocratic and based on merit, and she wishes to destroy the aristocratic and meritocratic force for an unachievable vision of democratic utopianism. Literal Marxist space jew.

Mando is a religion, not a people. You can easily get more Mandos is they follow the belief of Mandalor.

You do realize that she's a villain of the story, yes?

No clue. Blatantly shit posting, in fact. Makes sense, though.

Jedi and Sith are the faggiest element of Star Queers, so exterminating them means she has good ideas at the very least. Too bad KOTOR games sucked balls.

Or she just doesn't want space wizards fucking up the galaxy any more. All they do is ruin shit and they are horrible at governing. They are space kikes

Are you so sure about the Sith?
They can at least remove the gay.

I think the Galactic Empire had a pretty good run of things, and the whole thing was a space wizard conspiracy from the start.

In all seriousness… you can't force natural processes to stop for the sake of creating your perfect world, because the suppressed natural process will re-emerge more violently than ever before, destroying everything you built on its supposed grave. The struggle between the light and dark side of the force is a fundamental natural process in that universe, so trying to suppress it will probably lead to untold devastation. You cannot ban war or ban violence anymore than you can ban sexuality or love, and you cannot conduct war for the sake of peace. War and violence are essential parts of life, and unstoppable natural forces.

Sith are definitely less bad, but the whole metaphysics of the universe basically demands Jedi exist to offset them, so they're space-fag enablers even if they do occasionally remove Jedi. Sith definitely help bring the universe to better governance though. An autocratic empire is definitely preferable to a corrupt and bloated republic.

Star Wars is gay. They made two good movies (Hope and Empire), and the rest has been a shitshow.

She was a great character, but I didn't agree with her.

It was interesting that she said she "hates the Force", though.

The universe of Star Wars is fucking shit. You basically have 2 different type of worlds.
Shit hick planets where slavery, rape and violence are the norm and where the average person lives a life no better or advanced than what early colonizing American farmers experienced.
You also have mega cities where the natural environment is completely destroyed in order to house a never ending city. These places are filled with scum that will get you into economic slavery by keeping you in perpetual debt from a monopoly corporation.
The Jedi (and Sith) are the rulers of these worlds and yet they are horrible at governing. All they do is care about keeping power and any time these fuckers go to war billions of innocent people die. Jedi make up less than 1 percent of 1 percent of the population and yet rule it all without ever improving anything. They never decided to stop slavery or improve the conditions on these worlds. On top of all this technology has been stagnant for literally thousands of years. The Jedi and Sith fucking off forever would be the best thing for the galaxy and Kriea knew this.

meant for
That is literally what the jedi want to do. They are the unnatural ones.

Don't you mean space-gooks?
Also, yes, Darth Plagueis breaks down how the less feral Sith see themselves as the rightful stewards and leaders of the Galaxy. This on top of their righteous hatred for the Jedi over their past. Go listen to the audiobook, it's surprisingly comfy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the dark side just what they use to describe evil force users? That's the explanation the series seems to go with when the Sith are depicted as canonically evil.

As I understand it, the whole mistake the Jedi made was branding certain force powers as "evil" and since the Sith generally care more about power than stupid shit like being afraid of using the other side's space magic they have access to all of them. I believe Luke's Jedi Order largely avoided many of those mistakes, and basically said "Use whatever space magic you want, just don't abuse your powers". Balance in the force isn't some weird space-magic centrism, it's just not having evil Force-users fucking shit up. Which is why Anakin was basically born to kill Palpatine

You have the normal planets too you know. Corellia, Alderaan, Naboo, Kashyyyk, and Dantooine are all relatively alright places to live ignore the fact Alderaan is a debris field now.

The failure of the Jedi only demonstrates my point, though. They wanted to end the cycle and failed. The entire story of the Star Wars series is the catastrophic fallout of their failure to suppress the natural forces which drove the struggle between light an dark. Rather than trying to stop or control the conflict between light and dark, they should just let it happen. It's not something that can really be resisted anyways because mortals are not the masters of their own destinies.

You are only describing the features of any late-phase society, here. It is what happened to China, India, Egypt, Rome, Arabia, and will happen to the West as well over the course of the next few hundred years. Every society has a life span. This is another unstoppable natural process.

The jedi society has lasted for literally thousands of years without change. There is no true advancement in any regard.

Right, exactly like any other late phase society. Most are usually conquered by neighbors after a few hundred years here on earth, but Star Wars likes to use large numbers. The only advancements that happen once a society has reached its final phase are military technology (occasional advancements in technologies related to mass production and transit as well). In Star Wars they keep building bigger and better war machines and planet-destroying cannons, so I don't know that you can there have been no advancements.

Societies don't continue to get better an more advanced. They reach a certain point, use up their potential, stagnate, and then slowly decay until they get wiped out by something else. Perpetual growth and progress is a myth. Even if you got rid of the Jedi and Sith, you would have wars, slavery, corruption, and stagnation without advancement. And eventually, the Jedi and Sith would probably re-emerge anyways.

To an extent, although there was scientific advancement going on throughout the Middle Ages.

If it wasn't over the force they'd fight over something else. The CIS fought to establish economic superiority. I think the setting is ripe for racial conflict personallyNo pol it's important to remember, depending on the writer, that the force exists as a symptom of the forces that drive life and the cycle of death and is not something that exists for it's own sake.

Can you name any society in human history without advancement for literally thousands of years? Even the Dark ages had technological advancement.
And yet humans as a whole always advance and this has always been the case. I bet you think modern society is "stagnant" despite it progressing faster than it ever has before.

IIRC in the clone wars TV series Anakin visisted the planet where the force comes from and there was an old man and his two kids and one of them was the dark side of the force and the other was the light side.

That sounds really stupid. Does that mean you could blow it up?

agreed. I'm not patient enough to watch a 40 minute video on the philosophy of a fucking polygon.

Middle Ages was an early phase society with a lot of cultural, political, and intellectual developments.

Regarding the middle ages, see my point above. Like I have said before, on earth, most late phase civilizations do not make it thousands of years before being wiped out by younger more fit societies. Rome started stagnating within a few generations of its transition into the Roman Empire (Western Empire, specifically, it would be a mistake to treat the Eastern and Western Empires as the same thing), and their only real advancements were military at that point. China was around for a couple thousand years after reaching its imperial age without much advancement outside of military technology or trade. Arab society reached its final phase a little over a thousand years ago at this point, and is still around with little advancements outside of military technology and trade, a lot of which is stuff that they have borrowed from the West at a certain point.

"Modern" society isn't a thing. Western society is in its modern/late phase. It has not yet reached stagnation, but is quickly burning through its potential, like a light bulb burns brightest before it goes out. Already most of its advancements have become economic and militaristic in nature, though. I think over the next hundred years, you will see the rate of advancement slow rather than increase like people claim. We have not reached stagnation yet, but we will soon.

Also, Human societies "as a whole" do not necessarily always advance. How long after Rome did it take the Western world to rediscover indoor plumbing? It was not a guaranteed thing that indoor plumbing would have been one of the things that we rediscovered, and there is plenty of lost tech from other civs, such as the south-pointing chariot used by the Chinese, which worked as a compass but without magnetism. This tech may never be rediscovered.

There's still debate over how much of those episodes was metaphorical or not, mind you.

wat

Ask the Clintons :^)

I'd be ok with this.

I have no idea I stopped watching TV years ago and I only sort of stumbled on the show again and was confused as the series actually gained the balls to change the status quo and was lost.
Like IIRC in another episode askhoka used the force choke on some dude.

I don't think it was where the force came from, but rather just where the last remaining celestials lived. I don't really think they were the force so much as very powerful in and heavily influenced/influential with it.

lol reddit kiddies

You are a fucking moron. I mentioned the Eastern Empire in the post that you responded to. To repeat myself, it is a mistake to consider the Easter Empire and the Western Empire as a single society.

Eastern Empire was effectively a part of a completely different cultural system which grew out of the shadow of the Persian Empire and eventually ended with the Arab Empire. The Western Roman Empire was a part of the Classical world.

Yeah, the Byzantines may technically have continued the Roman Empire, but they really were quite different. That, and they got taken over by Muslims and became the Ottoman Empire, and later Turkey

Exactly:
They are only a little more related to the Western Roman Empire than the Western Roman Empire was related to the Holy Roman Empire.

Granted, the different Religion part and the capital becoming Constantinople is something that happened while the former Roman empire was still united. But ultimately the Roman empire ceased to exist when it split, and time did the rest of the work.

Sure, but at the same time Latin Christianity and Greek Christianity were quite different from the start and quickly diverged as the Western Empire became more Germanic and the East more "Greek." The Great Schism was a long time coming when it finally happened, and there were major practical disagreements going way far back.

Other than that, I agree.

Stop overthinking it.
Kreia was skeptic about the Jedi's SJW agree with us or you're a Sith bigot philosophy.
Kreia, like any intellecual, sought information from both sides to reach a conclusion.
Kreia learned about the Sith and became an exile.
Kreia then learned the Sith were also flawed, and found many not being True Sith, just like she states there are True Jedi too (Exile and companions).
As long as they are True that is ok in her eyes, whether Jedi or Sith they'd achieve things that would be beneficial use of the Force.
Kreia dislikes the normie Jedi/Sith, because she believes they are not fit to use the Force. The Force was something that is pretty much predestining their fate and she wanted people to be free men.
Kreia chose to stay to guide more exiles, to redpill others in a sense.
only thing I disagree with is that she leaned more into Sith than centrist, especially at the end.
However Kreia transcends the bland dichotomy of good vs evil established in Star Wars, KOTOR2 grabbing a low common denominator series and turning into a better written world

This is major overthinking.

believe it or not, this was actually hinted at/alluded to in TOR. the republic is essentially a lying monarchy where people are born into serfdom, are told everything's alright, and are used as chattel for a system that smiles through their teeth then pushes people into the meatgrinder, be it wars or colonization. the sith empire is a meritocracy where the weak are preyed on openly and the strong are rewarded, and no secret whatsoever is made of this

easy there, reddit.

Amazing. Truly.

It doesn't help that the two Sith Lords she knew best were respectively a Scottish pain junkie-zombie with a chip on his fragmented shoulder and a life-devouring abomination anathema to reality in the shape of a man.

...

Author avatar of Chris Avellone that wasn't a fan of Star Wars, but probably one of the best written characters in the EU.

no

There is no reason to care about retcons outside of the game, do you really want to decide what you believe in from whatever the copyright holder says? In fact, nothing in KotOR 2 is "canon" anyways since Disney dropped the entire EU.

In my view the only Star Wars media to consider canon is whatever is well-written and fits together, which includes none of the movies nor most of the EU.

...

I do the same with lord of the rings.
The only canon part of the franchise is the Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring video game released for Windows XP.

killing sith lords is sith lords special-ity, user

Clearly.
Kindly off yourself, you waste of space.
>>>Holla Forums

Where did you come from?
At least the Republic was shown to be rather incompetent in the EU.

Kill yourself.

*the New Republic

What was left of the Empire also became pretty much the same as the New Republic/Galactic Alliance.

yeah that segment was fucking dumb.

I know this, why are you telling me?

Adding onto your statement I guess

Ancient Egypt.

You don't know what you're talking about at all and completely destroyed all credibility you had with this one sentence. The medieval era is just a blanket term for the thousands of years between Rome's fall in Europe all the way to the Renaissance.

Very well then.

and Nihilus but he was too far gone

She has an interesting philosophy that teaches young edgelords how to into thinking; but ultimately as you grow older you start to find holes in her teachings. It's a good starting point, but you shouldn't just take what she says to heart.

The only reason you think this is because Bioshit's KOTOR is so ridiculously bad when it comes to its morality system, so of course you think Obshitian's KOTOR II is like a breath of fresh air. But you're wrong. Kreia/Traya was a pseudo-intellectual RPer, and true Sith like Palpatine and Darth Bane were superior in every way to her.

Kreia had more bitchfits than both Palpatine, Bane, and Plagueis combines. She'd lose her shit at you no matter what you did because her pseudo-intellectual drivel meant that she could question everything from her """neutral""" high-ground.

To be fair, it was already Star Wars lore that the strongest Sith would be the leader. So if you kill the strongest Sith, that would make you stronger. KoTOR was a pretty well written game, but it's not hard to mess up Star Wars while you're copying the movies.

Just because Bioware sucks, it doesn't mean that they can't release at one well written game. my second choice woulda been Mass Effect 2

Come on, the gameplay and story was way better in the first game. In the second one you can't even buy better equipment and armor. Plus, they seem to have forgotten what the first game was building up too and pulled the retarded Lazarus Project out of their ass.

Kreia is not advocating that you do not do anything, but that you carely consider your actions before doing it. Not simply acting out of ideology (do good things because that's what a Jedi do) or acting on impulse (randomly killing a guy for no reason).

Letting people help themselves makes everyone stronger, and if they are unable to help themselves, you can manipulate them into getting what you want.

Easy.
Apathy is death. Human nature is selfish. The Force corrupts all those that use it selfishly. Middle is no solution.

I don't know if you're arguing for or against what I wrote at this point. I'm going to assume you just read a few words and then dribbled your insides over your keyboard.

If you take the second as its own thing it's way better than the first. Though, I do enjoy cinematic writing slightly more than long conversations.

Not really. It wouldn't have to live up sequel expectations, but the first game is an overall better RPG still. At least we got Miranda and Mordin out of it though.

Mass Effect is an RPG? I thought it was a shooter with mild cyoa routes.

It also had leveling.

During which the young Germanic or "Western" culture was born and grew into a thriving society. When people say the Middle Ages, they are talking about Medieval Europe unless otherwise specified. Medieval Europe was the scene of the birth of Western culture. Don't get angry at people just because you cannot read between the lines.

Make me, you enormous dingdong

Well, the first game had more detailed stat and an equipment system. It's like a simpler linear RPG with real-time shoot.

Are you stupid? It literally *is* your fault.
You gave power to someone that did not have the means to protect said power. Imagine if you gave a homeless man a million dollars. What do you think would happen? Especially in a lawless planet where everyone is struggling for power? If you raise a person accidently, you bring in the eyes and envy from others. So yes, helping someone that isn't deserving of power is your fault. Kreia pointing this out is not a fault of the game or herself.

Miranda is a retard who is wrong about every single thing she opens her mouth about and a bitch, and she even looks bad. Her "ass" looks like she put two pillows into her suit. It doesn't look even close to an actual ass, it just looks completely off. And despite being an obnoxious bitch she has ridiculous plot armor.

Kreia is great but her secret ultimate goal of "destroying the force" is retarded and unrealistic even if not wanting the force to control people's lives is an understandable goal
Just ending the sith and the jedi and starting her own way better movement of enlightened machiavellian centrists would have been fine enough
Also she was clearly just suicidal at the end, her death didn't really achieve anything and the dumb bitch didn't even have the foresight to leave behind a holocron or anything

Revan is a shit fucking character and it's really sad
In KOTOR 1 he was basically just a cookie cutter darth vader style villain, cool looking, hyper-competent, and so on, and the only interesting thing about him was that bioware conceived of his character arc solely out of the desire have a big shyamalan twist that people would talk about, but otherwise he was just a generic evil bad guy that turned into a generic good/bad silent protagonist
KOTOR 2 pretty much entirely retconned him as a character into being morally grey and interesting, and he wasn't even in the fucking game so it was all just hearsay and implication
But then Bioware got the reigns back again in TORtanic and fleshed out what would have been his journey in KOTOR 3, and handled it even worse than you would expect, returning him to the gay saturday morning cartoon star wars moral binary

Before Lucas put the clamps on it, Revan was also going to appear in The Clone Wars, in that episode with the retarded human avatars of the two sides of the force, as a manifestation of the dark side, further cementing him as just another bad guy

Revan being a good character is something entirely localized to only the way obsidian had people describe him in KOTOR 2, which if taken in the context of the rest of his appearances basically makes that portrayal of his character an in-universe meme

Literally the only good characterization Revan gets is in KOTOR2.
They wrote him so badly that the best stuff about him is from a thing he's not even in.

The only characterization he gets is that he was ruthless in defeating the Mandalorians but that's not really characterization. Kotor 2 described him as a legendary tactician that was 5 moves ahead of everything.
I still wonder if Drew got pissed at how Avellone stole his character and made him better. Same with HK47. Cool concept but made iconic in Kotor 2.

I haven't played the second game, but HK-47 was pretty great in the first one. Then again, it's pretty easy to make a psychopathic killbot into a good character.

HK was written really well because half the time he was basically a surrogate mouthpiece for Revan with murderbot jokes thrown on top
If Kreia gave us a perspective of him as his teacher, then HK would be the other side of that, essentially being his student

Mirandas ass looks nice, but her face looks like it was modeled from a mario block. And she's a coalburner. And she's obsessed with having kids so she's sterile. As well as massive daddy issues, considering. And a horrible personality, like the shittier version of a tsundere. She's a horrible decision for a romance choice.

Revan was made badass because of his armor. It was all about the look. And they never really let you use the damn armor.

This is a stupid metaphor, on tier with "if you kill your enemies, they win". Fucking hell, taking George Carlin's joke about it to show the truth of it, "you can't fuck for virginity" is utterly false. By latter, you're creating a new virgin life. By the former, by eradicating the source of contention, peace is the natural consequence.

I still love her, but I have the same feeling as a christian should have towards neitzche.

You shouldn't try to destroy a tool just because it is wonky. You should try to fix it. Kreia wants to destroy the Force, and this would require genocide of all force users by driving them to Malachor, using you as the magnet.

Think of it like aborting all autists, yes you have sith like Chris-chan, but you get a few high functioners who are autistically good at what they do. Is it really a net benifit to the galaxy to kill all of them? Who's to say one won't find the way to fix this chink in the Force?

by that definition, all star wars characters are shit because they are unrealistic personalities in an unrealistic fictional universe

that never happened though?

I think you took the exact opposite to my meaning, tbh fam. Embrace war as a necessary fact of life, and don't delude yourself with the idea that the wars you are fighting are for the sake of establishing a peace. War is about acquisition of resources or the defense of resources. Peace only enters the picture once the resources are either gained or the attacker routed, and even then it is only a ceasefire, and the war continues by other means. War is not an evil, and claims of war for the sake of peace is self-deception.

I'm talking about extermination, not skirmishing where the source of contention is merely driven off.

Remove the source of contention and you have peace. For a while, anyhow.

Fair enough, but to be fair it only establishes "peace" with the eradicated tribe, and only by defaulting into it. The truth of the matter is that all nations are in a constant state of war against one another, even "allies." Even if you somehow eradicate all external enemies, there will always be internal ones as well. Where no enemies exist, new ones will arise. War and conflict are the nature of mortal existence, and peace is only a temporary reprieve so that you can prep for the next battle.

True enough, but on the scale of for example indigenous tribes, the peace which complete eradication of an opposing tribe brings is the most absolute peace possible, possibly often lasting for generations.

That's too bad for them. The most destructive thing for a society is too long a peace.

Yes. There are more chris-chan autists than functioning autists.
Their world doesn't NEED jedi, and would be better off without them.
Logically, she's correct. Morally/ethically, she's not, and comes out radical. I agree with you, you're better fixing than destroying. But the question is, can you fix the nature of it? you can fix the jedi code/system but humans will always be corrupt.
A better solution would be setting up some sort of balancing team to remove unfit jedi/sith to keep all jedi True jedi. But that would, again, be immoral and not practical or benecifial to the jedi council (removing man power, more resources on something that doesn't benefit them)
Her solution is the only applicable solution, to remove the current system and start with a new, balanced one.
But no one is going to do that, neither side will willingly transcend, hence she uses force to achieve that goal.
Although your decision is the correct one is not applicable or viable in that world. Due to nature of men or the current system not willing to do it. don't hate her for doing the logical step.
Kreia should've simply started her own gray jedi system. That's probably the most ethical approach, albeit slower in change. In a sense, that's what she did with the exile.

It was the moment where a guy asks you to spare some credits, right? Whatever you do the game punches you in that part, which is a very interesting piece of worldbuilding right after you land on Nar Shadaa, a smuggler's paradise.

I don't care that the canon MC option is the girl - having her means having the boring Disciple, gimme Handmaiden any day.

Just look at the Galactic Republic. A thousand years of peace, eh?

opinions without arguments

Great going, dips hits.

Kek if anything it sounds like not giving money vindicates you because it shows the guy is just a thug. That even if you gave the guy money and nothing bad happened to him what would he do in a week, or a month from then when you're no longer around? Mugging someone else.

Exactly, they got sloppy due to the long peace, and their attempts as suppressing their enemy failed, causing a catastrophic upset and the rise of the Galactic Empire. Anakin/Vader was required to do what amounts to something like a complete system reset so that the cycle of conflict could begin again.

In theory, anyways. Who knows exactly where Lucas planned on taking things, but from what I heard the Empire was going to be made out to be not that bad after all in light of some existential threat, so maybe a reset would have involved a complete destruction of the previous society first.

Too bad for you its more of an objective fact since any instalment in the series wether it be a book, movie or game focuses on conflicts between the sith / jedi.
Remove them and you would pretty much remove 80% of the conflict from the universe.

I've wondered this about the prequels. Did 20th centry fox force lucas to make the prequels and that's why it was rushed or did Lucas have all the power and funding and the prequels are in the "it's all lucas's fault" territory

Except for the part where she "sacrificed" herself to teach the exile some vague lesson about nothing, leaving the universe with nothing but a number of people left to carry on her teachings that can be counted on one hand, who bioware then killed off like bitches to serve the same old childish notions of good and evil that the series started out on
If Kreia was smart enough she would have orchestrated events that carried echoes in the real world, that people couldn't just ignore when writing subsequent games and books

In the game, it's specifically a more black and white light side/dark side choice, where you either give him cash or threaten to kill him, perpetuating a needless cycle of retarded violence is what Kreia chastises you for, essentially a meta-commentary on both star wars morality and dumb "jesus or baby-rapist" moral choices in vidya

It could be a combination of both, but iirc Lucas had a lot of not-so-stellar ideas that he wasn't able to ruin the original trilogy with due to budget and technological restraints. Stuff that didn't even make it into the re-releases. I'm no expert on the subject, though. In all honesty, the prequels are only mediocre, not horrible. They only seem horrible in light of the decade or so of hype and mystery built around them and in light of the achievements of the original trilogy. It could have been way worse than it was.

Remember Reapers? Remember when they used to be scary mechanical eldritch abominations instead of a rouge AI?

I miss those times.

So because someone who knew nothing about her were afraid of what she could do that means she could? No. Again: The Exile as special to her BECAUSE he was ripped from the force, she had nothing to do with it and he wouldn't be very special if she could just do it herself now would he?

I'm willing to bet most anons who like Mass Effect 2 haven't played it and the original recently. Mass Effect 1 was by far the best.

Ah, the evolution of Star Warsfag to Trekfag is always fun to watch. When did you realize that Star Wars is for children, user?

Mid-way through TNG. Picard makes the Jedi look like children.

I agree. but you forget Kreia just wanted to rest in peace, was tired, and passed the torch rather than build a gray jedi covenant.

Not even an opinion. This is a fact.

Fuck Japan for ruining an entire genre.

Oh, like what's happening now? At least each Prequel substantially expanded the universe.

Does that mean "bringing balance to the Force" just involves killing everyone with ties to the Jedi and Sith?

I disagree with the whole apathy is death thing. This is a situation where the only winning move is not to play. You can't overthrow the Jedi council OR eliminate the force because then you are only creating yet more war and strife. If you ever seek to gain control all you are really doing is adding yet another faction who wants to force their way on things. The only right thing to do is abstain from the inevitable conflict and the only way to do that is to go into hiding.

I also generally disagree that the force will force people to one extreme or the other. While it's clear that grey Jedi can become Sith, that's just as true for normal Jedi and there's not really enough evidence to suggest they are more susceptible. Basically it comes down to whether it is easier to avoid temptation through total abstinence or moderation.

And really, war happens with or without the Force. While the Star Wars franchise is clearly all about Force wars do you really think that eliminating the force itself would stop anything? People are more than capable of killing each other without magical powers and as the history of humanity has taught us there is absolutely no way to stop that. You can argue that the Force is evil because it inevitably guides people towards war, but getting rid of it doesn't solve anything, you just end up with people fighting without fate guiding them to it.

You know, OP, whether you think Kreia is right, wrong, retarded, or an edgy authorial avatar, it's certain at this point that she provokes discussion. Which may have been a point of her to begin with.

She's a stupid old cunt with plot-powers (kill-3-master-jedi-efforlessly) that I wanted to throw out of the airlock the second we go on the ship.

No. Bringing Balance to the Force only means destroying those that use the Force selfishly and the Dark Side. Killing the Jedi and Sith would ensure permanent balance as no Jedi would fall to the Dark Side.

light side was winning. Anakin murdering nearly every jedi did bring it into balance

No you idiot, it has nothing to do with 'the light side' winning. The Force *is* the light side.

then what's the dark side?

An imbalance of the Force.

...

so the dark side is indeed the force

also, you're attempting to assert something without evidence

also, what of the rakata, who merely used the force as a tool for whatever ends without consideration for its morality?

The Dark Side is a perversion of the Force, created when people use the Force selfishly as a tool.
You mean the cannibal species that constantly fought themselves until a 'plague killed all of them at the same time they overused the Force to the point where they could no longer use it?

If you're going to use the Rakata as evidence, I'm going to use anakin in ep 3 and how he got corrupted by the Dark Side.

…And why do people consider the Force good again?

Because people think that the Jedi and altruism is a standard of good. Within the structure of Star Wars, there is literally no reason to think the 'Force' itself is 'good'. The Sith are just seen as evil because they kill much more people for no reason compared to the Jedi.
The Force is an energy field that controls everything to the point where chance itself does not exist. It corrupts anyone that tries to use it selfishly and the only way to use it is to give up your emotions and ego, becoming a slave to the Force.

The Force simply destroys the Dark Side of the Force and those that use the Force selfishly, so that the Force returns to the status quo. This is what is known as bringing balance to the Force, not an equilibrium between both sides. By the end of Return of the Jedi, balance was achieved.
Hell, in Revenge of the Sith, Windu even says that their abilities to use the Force is diminishing. The Dark Side is cancer that kept growing. It has nothing to do with the number of either the Jedi or Sith side, but the destruction of the Dark Side.

I've never heard of her, but this sounds stupid.

How does one destroy the force? What we are led to believe is an intrinsic force of the universe.

Don't take 'destroying the Force' literally. It meant destroying the influence the Force has on the galaxy. Kreia wanted to create an echo that would force everyone in the galaxy to either sever their connections to the Force, like the Exile did on Malachor V, or die. But such a shock would kill basically the entire galaxy. But if people were to survive such an apocalypse, they would no longer be able to center themselves and use the Force. If no one could use the Force, then no Jedi and Sith. No wars.
That's what it means to destroy the Force.

If you want to understand her, watch this video

And then immediately brought objective balance to the force

Fucking idiot, look at the entire of Star Wars instead of Revenge of the Sith.
He brought balance to the Force in Return of the Jedi by destroying the Sith. It has nothing to do with the number of Jedi in existence.
This is why Star Wars is a story about 'good' versus 'evil' with good always winning.

And also the jedi, in that same trilogy, leaving solely Luke, who learned from the mistakes of both sides

Granted, Yoda's death was more incidental than anything, but was still indirectly his fault

Irrelevant. Luke is a Jedi.
His unorthodox training does not matter. The Jedi won in the end. Balance was achieved as the Sith were destroyed.
You keep bringing up that Anakin brought balance in Revenge of the Sith when he didn't. The number of Jedi do not matter.

Who takes an enlightened "alt-centrist" route
You forget we're talking about "Jedi" and "Sith" not in terms of just the titles, but in terms of the light and dark, you obstinate cunt

lol no. Prove me he took that route.

I did not forget anything. The Sith use the Force selfishly and were destroyed, bringing balance to the Force.
If Balance is too hard for you, then change the wording to 'bringing harmony to the Force'.

His embracing of humanity and relatively liberal use of dark side force abilities after the OT, which as far as I'm aware is even a thing in the far more controlled disney canon
You keep trying to explain it as if I don't perfectly understand what you mean

Literally trillions would die but in the end the universe would be a far better place. The force literally controls the minds of all who use it, it is like an addictive drug. In a Universe with the force free will can't exist and all things happen due to the force. In the Star Wars universe everyone is a slave without realizing it and that is why no progress happens.

That sounds phenomenally stupid. Kill trillions of people to stop war. Which won't actually stop war, just war started by these two particular factions.

So in the end, kill trillions to accomplish nothing.

Killing trillions to be free.

Free of what? Ideas?

But nobody would be free in any quantifiable sense. Kreia even said it in the game (echoing Vader a bit) that the struggle of the Jedi and Sith is essentially the struggle for the heart of Man. If it's the human condition that echoes itself in the force, then the only way to stop the force from perpetuating the Jedi-Sith crap would be to a) make people face a conscious choice to turn away from the Force (which only the Exile could, and she succeeded only because she had a talent in that area), dooming almost everybody in the galaxy who are dependent on the force for impetus; or b) not be human, transforming people into something utterly different.

Not very achievable, wouldn't you say?

Free of being mind controlled by the force and for people to actually have power over their lives instead of being ruled by the Jedi/Sith.

Okay, it's not mind control; they show in the very first movie what Force mind control looks like. What the Force does is essentially predeterminism.

Killing all the force sensitives wouldn't get rid of the force
It flows through all living things, penetrates them without their consent, whether they can feel it or not

The EU authors (not Lucas) and early set of official canon games (KOTOR, etc.) created the Yuuzhan Vong (the force-immune aliens from another galaxy), and the story arc around their invasion spanned dozens of books. It was stated in those that Palpatine knew about the coming invasion and created the Empire (instead of just ruling the existing republic) because he needed a unified military force to oppose them. This isn’t so much a “retcon” of the Empire’s purpose by third parties, because KOTOR II (which is/was canon) explicitly makes mention of a Vong scout ship (KOTOR takes place ~4000 years before the movies), so Palpatine could have easily gotten this data.

But the Empire was MUH NOAZZIES and has always been MUH NOAZZIES and you can’t show them ever being “good” in any context.

So instead they'll be controlled by philosophies and live under oppression by anyone who has more guns.

There is no meaningful distinction between the two
Predeterminism means free will does not exist, meaning all minds do only what the force wills them to

What

Ectually, that was in the first game. Canderous mentions finding a living ship that then scarpered into the void.

Star Wars generally uses the Force's predeterministic tendencies to establish the concept of 'destiny'. The question of free will is left more ambiguous, unless you happen to be on the receiving end of a human using the force to rob you of yours.

That's better. The Star Wars universe has been stagnant for thousands of years. With the freedom to make their own choices people can actually push forward.

The force in the first movie was pretty clearly a space magic metaphor for god and christian values, which lands it pretty squarely in the "has a plan for all of us" camp

That's not solving the problem, that's just moving it.

And the Star Wars universe has been stagnant for thousands of years because of shitty writing and trying to not step on 'cannon' not because of some high minded stalemate.

Your statement is far too silly to reply to seriously.

Maybe in Star Wars they only had Cnn…

It definitely is helping it. Without the Jedi/Sith people will rule based on their own merits rather than if they were lucky enough to be born with force powers. Jedi and Sith rule simply because they are the Jedi/Sith. If you take that away than more competent people (even if competent means cunning, brutal, ect) can rule.

It's not sentient, per se - they made a conscious decision to not personify it despite the many motifs of Abrahamic religion being invoked. You could argue whether it's hard or soft predeterminism, but I can conclusively posit that it's not some 4D chess crap because that invalidates most everything in the movies e.g Vader's decision at the end of ROTJ.

Oh, was it? I knew it was Canderous, but I couldn’t remember when he said it. I guess he “never takes off his helmet” in the second one, right?

Since when is leadership meritocratic? I'd refer you to LOGH which discusses the very possibility of setting up a dictatorship, only to conclude that the wrong guy will eventually get the job.

His choice had meaning in the context of the movie, and to the people in his life
Just like in real life, I doubt many people in the star wars universe are theological nihilists, and that includes people like Kreia who actively thought the force was the space illuminati

Also, Vader's decision was literally prophecy

It isn't helping it either. You think removing the force is going to somehow destroy nepotism, greed, lust, or pride? You are simply killing people to change the flags people are going to die for.

I'm watching this Philosophy of Kreia and so far I have to say she is one of the dumbest motherfuckers I've ever listened to in my life. It's like listening to Holden Caufield call everyone else phonies while doing even stupider shit.

She saw both sides of "the Force" ie jedi and sith and saw that they were both retarded.

The Jedi preached the light side and did nothing much to help despite their power and foresight, while the Sith did nothing but fuck shit up. And both, she realized, were more helpless when deprived of the force or put in a situation where it couldn't solve shit, in other words, she saw both sides as retarded for their values and lack of understanding of those without Force powers and thus she felt neither were fit to rule.

You meet her after she's recently left the Sith temple she established after getting her shit wrecked by a backstabber with hateboner issues.

The entire game is her pushing you to locate and kill the remaining masters of both sides, to free the galaxy of Force Users and to effectively "kill the Force". She of course fails in this and she know she will, so she trains you, someone who has been cut off from the Force, to be a better force user who understands suffering and thus can function as a normal human being should her plan fail, which would at least create a less horrible version of the current systems.

Functionally she's a deconstructor character aimed at Star Wars itself and the overly romantic tone that ignores reality and reprecussions of actions, and at the same time creates a more thought provoking and more complex plot to show exactly how you can use the setting to it's fullest WITHOUT resorting to brainless "the sand is rough I dun like it" lazy ass romanticism.

The new movies are exactly the sort of shit why a character like Kreia was created to deconstruct, they're even worse in that respect now then ever.

Basically the whole thing came off as a really, really intense d20 /tg/ session of Star Wars where you have that one GM that loves to tell a story and made a story more epic then the original basis.

Like that one guy who makes custom encounters out of monsters by giving them classes and abilities that violate the canon something fierce but it ends up being really, really, REALLY fun.

The prophecy was introduced in the same movie that brought us midichlorians unless I'm forgetting something, been a while since I watched the movies. Besides, given that bringing balance to the Force = preventing people from bending it to their will (imbalance), Anakin going DS and kickstarting an entire empire along with Sidious was definitely not part of the master plan.

Yis. It was akin to those old sailors' tales of turtle islands and the like, being an odd-looking asteroid his men landed on. Incidentally, Mandos not written by Karen Traviss are boss. Better than Klingons, even.

Off topic my DM made a mimic monster with a summoner class that summons monsters, we call it a Pandora's Box

I'm stealing that shit, it's cool
I'm going to take control of that mimic next session since my character died

Kreia didn't want to kill the jedi masters, just destroy their ideology, prove them wrong so hard that they could no longer deny it
She just didn't forsee them being the most stubborn dicks in the galaxy, willing to destroy the exile's connection to the force just to quell their own retarded fears

That's the thing about prophecy, it's never that specific
The goals of the prophecy were technically achieved twice, and at the end of it all there was no empire and palpy exploded into treats, balance was brought

It was. At the cost of countless millions of lives.

She's a fictional character, you absolute retard. A man wrote her lines.

No, it just means there are ways for other people to gain power. Say what you will but the world we live in today is far better than the one the people of SW live in.

Yep
Nobody ever said the "balance" was a good thing
Obi-Wan realized as much when he fought Anakin, they were Jedi that were viewing the prophecy through the lens of their teachings instead of thinking about it objectively

Even 40K's is sounding a little better, and its God of Fate is actively evil.

Did you just forget that blasters and ships exist? There are plenty of people in SW that have power that don't have the force or even martial ability.

Mind you this is also assuming you ignore the blatantly shitty writing that makes force users able to effortlessly destroy armies or planets with the snap of a finger. Which I try to as often as possible.

I liked that comic in star wars tales that had Yoda and Mace Windu arguing about what balance means.
We've always been plagued by these cocksuckers, haven't we.

The original trilogy, despite being well-constructed movies, was social commentary and the Empire were Nazis. And as we all know here, Hitler did nothing wrong (except lose the war). Princess Leia is a bitchy female political figure and never displays much respect for any of the male characters until the medal ceremony at the end of the first movie. She still has hella attitude after that. The bad guys are human supremacists (white supremacists) and the good guys are a mix of all kinds of species/races.
It's been pozzed since day fucking one. It's just more blatant now.

Uhhh, you realize our autistic boy George saw the Emperor as Nixon and wanted to make a Vietnam War movie, right Holla Forums? Also, the human supremacy came up in the EU for cheap baddie points and eventually unrolled from there.

No, they were stock villians who had Fascist aesthetics. The movies were about a blonde haired aryan farm boy who redeems his father by rejecting the (((dark side)))

You're playing into the kike's narrative, Star Wars was not always pozzed. Hell, the Prequels basically name the Jew.

Heh, when you put it that way, Darth Plagueis shows that the Rule of Two Sith were full of those sort of subversive (((tricks))). Albeit much more adroit at using them, since they deliberately cut down on infighting and making sure only strong, crafty apprentices took charge.

She was a terrible character, a codex is just something to guide you to grow into something. How you live with it is the real test and she failed twice.

With retarded strategies. He would have made a horrible long term economic leader.

That drawing of Miranda looks better then her 3D model.

Movie about KOTOR/KOTOR2 when

Would shit on lowest common denominator Star Wars shit anytime of the day

shes super old, would not bang

Fixed. Did you people fail to pay attention to how the Exile connects to the force through other people like a benign Nihilus?

this french faggot wont stop making threads and talking to himself it seems

Right.
Because the Jedi are Sith are the ONLY reason wars are fought.

IT was shit. The entire premise is shit.

The "wound in the force" premise was shit
Kreia and her ideology was shit.
Darth Nihilus was shit.

It had nothing to do with SW I watched as a kid.
It was a turd that stupid people flock to to masturbate intellectually, because they think themselves so smart and it being so deep.

...

They're the central reasons in Star Wars.

Reminder that all she had to do to get rid of the force was to burn that tree down.

Play the game again.

That's the stupidest fucking thing I've heard all goddamn night. We don't have The Force in the real world, yet wars are fought all the time. And we're confined to just one planet. Do you seriously believe that if The Force didn't exist there wouldn't be any sort of war at all between sentient life forms, especially considering how expansive and different cultures would be between the planets?

You are talking about a fiction universe with blatant good vs evil nigger.

1's story is just plain better. Good beats, characters and nicely self-contained.

Even worse.

This is literally the only thing of note you have said and it says mountains about you.

Isn't that exactly what she demonstrates?

The shit they would have to cut to make them fit into a 2 hour movie would ruin it. Some kind of HBO miniseries MIGHT work, but I doubt it.

There are many wars in star wars that have nothing to do with the force. They are just rarely focused on.

That's something JJ Abrams decided was true, not something Lucas came up with.

There would be less wars in the Star Wars galaxy. I didn't say wars would end, but that the endless amount of wars fought between the Jedi and Sith, which is almost always the central conflict in Star Wars, would end.

That's because they're mostly unimportant. Ignoring the Yuuzhan Vong obviously.
Regardless of everything, everyone will agree that the Jedi and Sith are the core of Star Wars.
And if you examine what both represent, they represent the Master-Slave morality dichotomy. Applied to our world, as Nietzsche argued, all conflict revolve around that. So it's not too far of a stretch to say that all cultural arguments and memetics revolve those two sides.

I know nothing about Star Wars lore. I don't care either. I'm automatically cooler than you.

permanently on the "did nothing wrong/was right" list

Nah she takes her own failures and that of others to live with the Sith and Jedi code and argues thats the codes fault, but in reality she is just a loser.
She complains that the Sith and Jedi rely on the Force for everything, yet she is addicted and dependent to have a dogma that explains the world to her.
Also the huge elephant in the room is that for every Jedi falling to the Dark Side, there are hundreds of Jedi who have no problem following the Code.
Equally the Sith, for every "force choke your pregnant waifu that you try to protect" Anikin there are hundreds of Sith that got liberated by the Force to have a kick ass live, who without it would have quickly died as some noname gutter rat.

I'm biased because I want to be a space magician. Fuck you Kreia I'll use the force all I want!

...

Sounds like you would be a dark side cuck then

sure, women are cunts if you mean by being right. but adachi was a psychopath who did wrong.

Both the sith and jedi are dumb, they both sacrifice the wrong things for power and refuse to practice moderation. There's no logical reason for having your force powers be limited in strength because you haven't fully dedicated yourself to one of two strict ways of thinking.

Kreia is right about the factions but severing the force is not the answer.

If he’s such a bad guy then why does Atlus keep including him in new games? Seriously, Arena, Dancing All Night, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s in the next round of P4/P5 colaborative Games.

Kreia is a smart enough person who is living in the wrong setting. She argues about morality in a universe where being evil enough will physically make you ugly and being a nice guy lets you live forever as a blue ghost. This is a setting that's basically Flash Gordon but everything's been given a wash with an oily rag, and trying to play moderate or reasonable here just doesn't fit. There's no point in arguing motivations with people named Darth Icky or Hope Niceguy. Even if you do it'll just turn out they're your uncle or were the previous owner of your pet dog anyway.

She's basically just the person in the b horror movie who says "wait why do we need to split up?", and is inherently doomed to never know that it's simply the way things work.

Kreia had the ultimate ubermensh philosophy
same with force

Literally "be independent and strong"

Think of it in the terms of mental body building, to stay fit you need to have the right diet and follow a training regime and keep at it your entire live.
Now since the Force can be manipulated by Will and Emotions, the Jedi and Sith train in a way to strengthen their mind and character.

Exactly, I agree.

You can find your own path to enlightenment without having it forced down your throat and walled in by rules. Only cucks follow the easy set-out path with other peoples morals that you have to abide by.

It's just two different disciplines in the same martial art.
I'm not going to practice the "power for any price" edgelord-jutso which is just a one man journey to ruling the universe, unless you get backstabbed before that which the sith code condones and happens 999999999% of the time.

And while the Jedi's moralfaggotry is well meant at heart it also creates a whole special brand of uppity faggots obsessed with their rules. The enforced way of living and refusal to experiment with any techniques they deem to be "dark" even though it's all the same force.

Your truths are dependent on your perspectives. It'd be nice to see a force user who actually understood that and broke from the whole dichotomy *and* the fence sitting nerfed greyness and excelled in mastering all aspects available to them.

Doesn't matter now, Disney poz trash is all that's left, might as well just burn it all.

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That's the Exile, the only person in Star Wars that broke the dichotomy by caring more about its life than power yet was life affirming.

One thing I thought was cool is that the game never specifically tells you that Kreia was blind. You figure it out by the fact that she often wears her hood over her eyes, her no pupils and if you go into first person mode with her you see force signatures rather than the world around you.

i could have added
but you already outed yourself and this entire thread with it

Bioware didn't write Kotor 2 you dumb shit.

you can literally ask her what's wrong with her eyes

WHAT

What a sexy female…

She sees with the force.

Nigger you so dumb, they both pursue power that is the entire reason for this whole mess in Star Wars. In the face of ultimate power the best answer is to simply walk away.

You can also get Visas to teach you to see through the Force like Kreia sees. It's an interesting power to use because if you use it as you're about to fight Kreia on Malachor V, you can see that she hasn't really fallen. She's only slightly tainted.

I always found it funny how the effects of the Mandalorian Wars were much more prominent in kotor2 which was set decades after the war. While in kotor 1 nobody seems to talk about the Mandalorian Wars.

Although in kotor1 I suppose there's a bigger threat of the Jedi Civil War going on that people aren't caring to talk about past wars.

This. The Force is literally magic and can do anything. You essentially give up your humanity no matter what you do to wield it. Give up your ego to be in tune with the Force? Congratulations, you're zen and disconnected from all of life. Use your passion to wield the Force as a tool? Congratulations, you've slowly given up your humanity for power and are now a hollow being only desiring power. Think both sides are shit but still want to keep your power? Congratulations, you've exiled yourself from all of life and become a rock rather than exiled yourself from the Force itself to live.
The Force itself is literally the entire problem with Star Wars. There's no winning against such a thing. And because human nature is horrible susceptible to power, hardly anyone can walk away from it. Who doesn't want to Force push people with your mind or zap them?
But when you lay it all out that you're giving up your humanity for power and that the Force manipulates the entire galaxy to destroy those that use the Force selfishly, people act reasonable. It makes me think that the only reason people aren't wary of the Force is because they don't understand the full ramification happening in Star Wars.

It takes time for people to heal wounds and realize how badly the war had damaged everything. And Revan almost immediately invading with an almost unlimited Sith fleet made everyone focus on the issue at hand. Both the Mandalorian wars and the Jedi Civil war destroyed the galaxy so bad that everything was on the brink of death. Decades past after the wars and you're living in the echoes you were a part of, trying to forget. And everyone around you is trying to cope with how a handful of people destroyed everything.

Force sense isn't really needed to see that
She said all throughout the game that she wasn't a Sith, even after she stopped biding her time and hiding she never stopped saying that
She was only what she had to be, because the galaxy always needs a Darth Traya

It might not be 'needed' but it gives confirmation. Too many people see Kreia as a true 'grey' in the middle throughout the game and fail to notice when she does show her colors on Dantooine. Kreia did not have to sacrifice herself, but she did it for the sake of the galaxy. She died a true Jedi.

The only thing she shows on Danty is that she's willing to kill to protect you, which is less of a revelation about her and more about just how important you are to her and her goals
She spends like all of her dialog espousing that machiavellian philosophy that everyone also attributes to Revan, her prized student, it's not exactly a huge turn in her character

Nigger, millions of slob knockers on this planet believe there's blatant good and evil. What the fuck do you think religion is? Hell, what the fuck do you think THE FORCE is?? It's the same thing, just with light swords and space wizards. Fuck off.

You literally said
>If no one could use the Force, then no Jedi and Sith. No wars.
You need to specify next time, because you didn't make clear just what you were saying.

No, I mean before she literally shows up to confront the Jedi Masters, Visas sees her 'true colors' with her Force Sight.

Fine fine, no repetitive wars between the Jedi and Sith, which are usually the central conflict in the galaxy, causing millions of death each generation, as is controlled by the Force.

Didn't v-sauce think she was 100% evul like everyone else