Dungeon Crawlers

check out Darkest Dungeon

Any Wizardry game is tougher than babby shit like Etrian Odyssey.

Been a long time since I played Wizardry. Might have to give 8 a whirl

Thats literally what I said I didn't like it for you circular motherfucker.

Installing Wizardy now lads, any suggestions I should know when making my party that aint gonna fuck me up in the long run?

You've never played one in your entire life, have you? There's no way to have random generation with the complexity and variety that an intelligent creature can design. Random generation is at best, imitation of mediocre design.

And I just told you it’s because it isn’t an actual dungeon crawler you illiterate fuck.

It is a dungeon crawler, because like I just pointed out half the game is literal dungeon crawling.

Much more than half the game needs to be dungeon crawling. The term dungeon crawl comes from RPGs, specifically campaigns or sessions where the player characters were just thrown into a dungeon with whatever character generation gave them. All RPGs have dungeons and dungeon crawling in some sense, but not all RPGs are dungeon crawlers.

*The term dungeon crawl comes from Traditional RPGs

Ascended multiple times: ADOM, ToME, PosChengband, DCSS, Demon
Ascended once: Angband, RePosBand, Nethack, BROGUE, IVAN

Second half of your post is bait, but at least I had my chance to show everyone online that I did.

Okay buddy, now that's pushing it.

Huh?

What this guy said.
I have ascended Adom Tome(not the old version Te4) DCSS
PosChengband got boring
Ivan - beat the enner beast but this game is a son of a bitch

IVAN is Fake Difficulty the Roguelike, essentially. Second dungeon is Dwarven Explosion Wonderland followed by various bullshit from a creature who you can't even approach without everything you own shattering to various traps of instadeath variety.

It's not bad, though. It's a very fun RL. I just have difficulty believing anyone's ever beaten it.

How is it bait though? A man is more than the machine he can create.

you can say that, but that's just another rule in a book

there was a couple of exploits that made things easier
It's not cheating if it's in the build wink wink

Play this if you want to be a real man.

Specialize each character in something useful for the whole party beyond just beating the crap out of monsters. Something different for every character. Examples include spotting secrets, opening locks, identifying/uncursing items, knowledge about monster species and so on. For most pick classes with spellcasting abilities. One bard per party is recommended too.

The original statement that Roguelikes are easy is bait. Saying that procedural generation automatically makes the design less than, is also bait.

If you've got the time and are willing to deal with shit graphics you can start a party in Wiz 6 and carry that same party to Wiz 7 and Wiz 8. If you're looking for something a tad bit simpler there's the Wizardry game on PS2 which was pretty neat.

Another series you might like is the Elminage series, there's one on PC and another on the PSP.

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user how the fuck did you end up at that conclusion?
I'll try to think of some though

I didn't say they were easy. Roguelike dungeons are simple, bland, and inferior to what a good level designer can come up with. They're serviceable, but goof handcrafted levels are much better.

*good

Nobody said roguelikes are easy, he said they are simple. Which they are. And procedural generation does make the design less because it means the levels are not designed. You don't get puzzles, or carefully crafted enemy encounters that use the terrain to do interesting things.
He never said roguelikes are bad but you just had to sperg out as soon as someone didn't worship your favourite genre.

This is so cool, seeing your party evolve along with the graphics.

For reference's sake, there was a 9 year gap between Wiz7 and 8. That would be like being able to take a save file from FF7 and having it compatible with FF12.

This has never happened.

Well I misread that

brogue would like to talk to you

Now here you are adding words that I never said.

Wizardry 4 might no shit be the hardest game ever made that's actually beatable. Most players at the time of release in 1986 couldn't even get past the first room, which requires the player to walk in circles until they randomly recruit some enemy priests and have them randomly cast a light spell that conveniently opens the otherwise invisible secret door.

You don't gain experience points, you don't get gold, you can't grind to win, you have to explore the dungeon. But the game punishes you for exploring; you can't grind and there is an invincible ghost chasing you the whole game that automatically ends your game once you've pressed a certain number of keystrokes on that save. And that's not counting the typical instakill bullshit and absurdly unfair/unfun shit the Wizardry series is famous for, cranked up to masocore levels.

Once you look at the maps and hear about how maddening the rest of the game is, you'll probably immediately give up, too. Even save states and GameFAQs will not save you from this hell.

Is this a challenge?

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wizardry v and vi aren't hard?

Holy fuck, so that's what people are referring to

For more details on this electronic pain:

diehardgamefan.com/2008/05/23/the-7-games-you-play-in-hell/

gamefaqs.com/pc/564663-wizardry-the-return-of-werdna-the-fourth-scenario/faqs/1905

Play the best Persona instead.

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lol
since you seem to be such a fan of casual baby games, why dont you play some pokemon you manchild?
if you want to play a real game for men, get wizardry 8

do not listen to this man, stranger of sword shitty is a baby game as well.
why are all modern "dungeon crawler" "fans" little pokemon kids?
i wish i could make you all play wizardry 8 by force you fucking faggots

wizardry 8 is my vote for best dungeon crawler ever made. go in blind and don't get too attached to your party; if you're a completionist faglord like me you'll probably learn some little facts about party builds etc and want to start over. it looks pretty good, it plays great, it's just a fantastic game overall. grimrock 1 is a great dungeon crawler and i enjoyed it from start to finish. i didn't get too far in grimrock 2 but i liked what i saw. stranger of sword city is not bad, but frankly i reached a point about twelve hours in where i just didn't care anymore and had more fun making custom party members than i did with the actual game. apparently grimoire is good, but i haven't even touched it and the dev is so autistic that any discussion of it instantly devolves into caveman grunting.

if you want to go classic mode, dungeon master, eye of the beholder 1+2 and lands of lore were also pretty good

nah

like pottery
anyone that recommends this is a braindead retard shit posting on Holla Forums using speech to text from his wheelchair.

Really doesn't seem like there are much dungeon crawlers at all from this thread.

There are a fucking lot, Wiz8 is just a recommendation for a babby like OP.

Well what are they? Name some instead of just degrading into petty bullshit. Some how people have decided for the simple fact that I played Persona 5 that I am some kind of idiot who can't even comprehend a list of dungeon crawlers, even though I said I thought it was too easy and I didn't like it that much. Shin Megami Tensei sereis has always been dungeon crawling, I don't see how every other game can be considered that but Persona isn't because it has some different features in between the dungeons. SMT: Lucifers Call was sweet, also Strange Journey, just because I tried to play persona 5 doesn't mean I am incapable of reading a list of good dungeon crawlers out there, how come so many are inclined to just make presumptions on my person instead of actually sharing what they believe to be better dungeon crawlers?

Installed Wizadry 8 last night and I am enjoying it, no hiccups yet, and my party seems pretty solid thanks to advice.

Try my personal favorite, the Eye of the Beholder series, at least the first game is compatible with ScummVM.

A terrible answer. A "dungeon crawler" generally refers to a first-person blobber in the vein of Tales of the Unknown series. Roguelikes can be considered dungeon crawlers, but they usually aren't. And you wouldn't find them simple unless you've never really delved into them.

It says "for ages 7 and up" on the back of the box. Topkek. Just imagine a 7 year old trying to play this game.

Problem is there's a lot of shit ones. You might like these.

Etrian odyssey 1-4
Wizardry series in general including spin offs
Elminage Gothic and Elminage Original
Legend of Grimrock 1+2
The Dark Spire
Class of Heroes 1+2
Valhalla Knights 1+2 may scratch that dungeon crawling/party building itch
Operation Abyss series

Etrian Odyssey is garbo

I assume you probably already know about Super pokemon mystery dungeon but in case you haven't im here to tell you to fucking play it. Actually go and play all of them they are all good with teh exception of gates to infinity.

Play an actual Shin Megami Tensei game. Like Nocturne or Strange Journey as a babby suggestion for you.

I like the Grimrock games

Dungeon Siege.

It's basically Wizardry 7 with worse movement. Still good though. If it was actually released in the mid 90s like it was supposed to be, it would probably be remembered as a classic.

Procedural generation adds to replay value.

It does but Im 100% on board with that other guy. Hand-crafted levels will ALWAYS be better than procedural stuff. This is coming from a guy whose favorite game was Diablo II for YEARS.

Theres plenty of vidya, give me hand-crafted every single time. Ill take one of those games played 10 times over a roguelike with mediocre but otherwise serviceable procedural design played 100 times every single day of the roman calendar.

we're talking about good games in here, dude

By the time you're done with the game you'll have seen all it has to offer. The procedural generation in most roguelikes isn't there for replayability, its a curve ball so that it isn't a solved game.

I mean that is still very subjective because how many games actually create interesting hand-crafted levels? What makes them intersting? Set pieces, enemy placement, puzzles? Currently level design as a whole is some of the most bland i've seen. FPS games lost their Doom-maze qualities in favor for hallways. RPG's aren't doing anything interesting (compare the more recent Atlus titles to stuff like their PS2 days), Puzzles have taken a nosedive in quality across the board unless the game is explicitly a puzzle game.

The same question applies to Procedural generation as well, but with procedural generation it works better with the gameplay loop associated with Roguelike games. Where you will need to re-enter the same location multiple times and making things different helps to keep you from just blitzing every floor through rote memorization. You will still learn how each seed works but you always have room for something surprising happening should the Devs account for that.

Especially since we're talking about dungeon crawlers keep in mind that most games don't go for Wizardry levels of stocking the dungeon. Stuff like the Dark Spire and EO could easily be handled with procedural generation. I think that procedural generation works just fine but still has room for improvement.

I was merely making a time frame for reference.

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This is coming out in a view weeks. Looks pretty good

*few

Procedural generation eliminates play value altogether. I don't want to waste my time on a game that isn't intelligently designed.

Its dungeons are bland and thoroughly uninteresting. Its story and background generation features are interesting, but it isn't dungeons, and it isn't gameplay.

Sounds like a really good way to die horribly.
I'm interested.

Actually one of the easiest DCs to get into. At least not as buttfucking as M&M1 for many reasons, even though M&M games are always easier than Wizardries…
Basically DLCs for 1.
This is something you should play when you really know the genre and what you'll get from it.

8 is definitively not hardcore at all and quite streamlined, you can't multiclass anymore like in the previous games, especially like in 6 or 7.

I'd say everybody needs to play wizardry 7 at least once in their lives though.

Wizardry is boring as hell.

Any spellcasters you bring need to specialize in only a few schools of magic, preferably no more than 2. Always level them up to full capacity each level. You will unlock spells and these spells will be good. If you take a bishop and try to spread out amongst different schools and spell types and elements, you'll have one real shit spellcaster who can cast a lot of spells very poorly.

Try to raise a few attributes to 100 as soon as possible. Reaching 100 with an attribute unlocks ultimate skills. For example, reaching 100 with strength will unlock a new skill that makes your attacks penetrate and deal more damage. Make sure that you fully level a few stats every level to unlock these skills.

Martial classes are better in the early game, and magical classes are better in the late game. If you stack martial characters, you'll have a good start and a rough end. If you stack casters, you'll have a rough start but a good end.

There are no good axes in the game. Leveling the axes skill is a good way to throw away skill points. Only raise firearms if it's a gadgeteer, as their gun levels with them. No guns in the game are worth leveling firearms for. Maces and swords are the best weapons to level, and there are some good spears, bows, and daggers as well.

Don't grind. Monsters scale, and if you just sit and grind, enemies will become tougher but your equipment will become outclassed.

Honestly, the game isn't that hard if you know what you're doing. If half of your party is optimized well, then your other half can be suboptimal, and you'll still be able to play without too much of a problem. Your playstyle can make certain classes better or worse. Some typical power classes are the gadgeteer, the bishop, and the valkyrie. Some bad classes are priests and psions. The bard and ranger are very good for new players, as the bard will help you deal with fatigue (fighting without high energy is bad) and the ranger will ensure that you will walk by fewer hidden items or secret locations.

So how is that new EO game?
I pirated it but havent gotten around to actually playing it.

it's woke

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I'd imagine that isn't in the original translation…

I only say 1-3 together because they practically need to be played in order as 2 and 3 are designed for higher level parties.

Thanks for the tips user seems my party will be pretty balanced for both sides of the game as I have gone with Lord, Valkryie, Monk, Rogue, Mage, and Priest. I'm really enjoying the game so far though I can really see some of these room puzzles getting to me eventually.

I'm going to try eye of the beholder when I am done with Wizadry, what do you think sets it apart from that sereis to make it your favorite?

I think the tileset for IVAN is one of the better ones out of all the classic roguelikes. But yeah, 80% of your deaths will come from instakill explosions and op enemies like an assassin in the gloomy caves.

Fuuuuck yeah! Dungeon Master!