Thieves, rogues and assasins

It's just a fantasy mutation of real-life bandits, robbers, highwaymen, and other thieves.
Just like every other fantasy class, the most basic attributes are taken and exaggerated, and a bunch of things are added or extrapolated to make them more unique.

A thief is a person who steals things and might stab you. Gotta make them an exclusive knife-wielding class with retarded dexterity and dark clothes.
A rogue is a vagrant who rejects the rules of society; not explicitly lawless or criminal, but does not follow social expectations. Gotta make them dark and troubled wanderers with a mysterious past.

They're essentially criminals. Edginess comes with the territory as far as fantasy goes when it comes to criminals.

It applies to pretty much every fantasy class. How many warriors were people who walked everywhere in full armor looking for people to protect? How many "wizards" were bearded dudes with magical tomes chanting incantations?
It comes with having independent classes and having to make them unique. If it were "realistic", thieves would just be a fighter class who steals and rogue would be fighter class with low charisma. It would just pretty much be slight variations on a standard fighter class and slight variations on a wizard class, with no defining features otherwise.

I think you're taking it out of proportion. If a universe has shitty dumbed-down design for its thief and rogue classes, it's going to have dumbed-down designs for pretty much everybody else too. Look at World of Warcraft; every single class looks like stupid dogshit.

The concept of a rogue isn't to be a soldier or a warrior. It's mostly just a character who fights bellow the belt and doesn't fight you head on.

Tabletop RPGs didn't always have thieves be archers for instance. In AD&D the thief class couldn't even wield longbows or composite longbows, you had to be a fighter or a ranger to do that.

The Thief class in tabletop rpgs was typically much more of a character who did things like stole items, robbed people, disarmed/planted traps and used poison. Which has existed throughout history.

It's moreso video games and mass media that has made the rogue much more akin to a fast damage dealing warrior as an attempt to balance a game where rpg = combat. Which isn't the case in tabletop rpgs. If you're a thief in AD&D and you're fighting dudes toe to toe you're playing the game incorrectly.

You can see a game like Thief the Dark Project as the closest thing to how a thief should play in AD&D. It's near perfect in this regard.

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Rogue is a jack of all trades. A rogue is a character who isn't the best at confronting enemies, but quick thinking and lots of tricks get them out of any situation, even with +CHA. An archer is an archer. Better with bows and a fair range. A rogue normally doesn't just fight. But when he does he can dodge really well and use all sorts of tricks to dispatch his enemies quickly. Fighting dirty and gathering, buying or spending items.
A warrior is stronger and more skilled than a rogue and the rogue can only survive by keeping a decent distance from him with superior acrobatics and cheesing him with throwing daggers or poison while he runs around. If you're an agile guy and some fucker in heavy armor chases you, let his own armor defeat him. Less armor means he can do more agile stuff. An archer is more deadly on ranged distances, but the rogue can sneak up to him and match him in close distances. A mage can obliterate a rogue but the rogue can use tricks to poison or silence him.

It's a well-balanced class designed to counter everything if you're versatile enough, but also to get rekt by everything if the other one is more skilled than you.
The cons of the rogue is that while a barbarian or a wizard can face entire armies alone, the rogue tends to be a runner, getting out of trouble and bringing enemies into disadvantageous situation where you can take them out, or run with the loot undisturbed. Rogues aren't ninjas, they're con-artists. They use tricks and deception to get what they want. I'm wrting this shit while on the bike so I may get a lot of stuff wrong.

I can't take a game in which as a guy wielding an axe you are fighting on equal grounds with guy with a tiny dagger.
Well during wars, which lasted for years armors would be worn a lot. Maybe not plate mail, but chain mail and other armor would worn most of the time. And it is by no means light.
How often would ninjas be in their black gear?
How often would assasins be in their fantasy attires ?
Almost never. Some cloth over your face and that is it, even in the east.

The dumbing down I get. But where you might have had half naked barbarians running around at some point, warriors, archers and spearmen, you never really had assasins in their current fantasy look.
It's really glorified and bad design.

Eh ? Thief is odd in it's own way.
An archer, good archer implies a top heavy, muscular person.Which goes badly with most ideas for modern thief/rogue/assasin.
I'd like to agree with you, but most of the reasons for the modern video game rogue come exactly from tabletop.
Heroes like drizzt have been around for around 27 years. And it's not just the west. The east is full of that shit as well.

- Should dress like a commoner or a beggar so not attract attention
- Should focus on profit instead on stealth kill niggery
- Should focus on stealth kills instead of hack'n slash fuckery
- Should dress practical instead of an edgelord
- Can dress as it's want to, since it's nothing but a glorified henchman
- Boring glass cannon, excellent role/class for a mary sue

Just my two cent…

Assassin is a class to me where you go maximum edgelord or go home. It just fits the concept.

Because the stealthy/spy class always attracts the edgy "Look at me i'm so cool and unique" types.

I know, because I am one. I always gravitate towards the mobile, swift, annoying class with low HP but fast speed.

STOP BEING SO DENSE! a warriors thing is that he is strong/skilled in combat, and should win a fair fight, while a rogues thing is that he is fleet and clever, and never has to be a part of a fair fight because he cheats, tricks, runs, sneaks, steals, scouts ect, if he ever finds himself in a fair fight he will likely run from it guile his way out of it, or apply his wit in such a way that using some clever advantage it is no longer a fair fight

in my opinion this is what makes rogues the best of the three, it rewards player skill the most and is the most fun an any game I can think of that has the 3 archetypes

My dear friend. Please do not mix assassins with modern ubisoft tier fuckery or japa-kawaii ninjas. They kill marked people without trace.

If you want the angsty teenager wetdream then roll with the rogue. Just as said.

Fuck it, rollan.

*blocks your path*

It's not so much that it rewards skill so much, as it allows me to strike and avoid battles whenever I want. I get to dictate when fights take place, I take the initiative. I can survive by just running away, whereas a slow warrior tank is a sitting duck once his health drops too low.

[cont]

Take Aliens versus Predator for example.

I like to play as the Alien xenomorph because he's fast, can climb on any surface and doesn't need to get Pick Ups or worry about ammo, because he uses claws and tail.

The Marine is a glass cannon and the Predator is bad in group fights but OP when it's 1v1, because there's so much weapon switching and vision modes involved.

The Alien is the aggressor, he picks the fights. That is what I love about it.

We don't really disagree. An assassin is a character focusing on killing the target. A rogue is a character focusing on living to fight another day and has more +CHA than your average assassin, also good stealth but worse combat. It's still a fun class if you play dickass mode.

Basically yeah. To be a good archer you need to have a lot of muscle mass. In Thief while the player does have a bow, Garrett clearly isn't meant to rely on it given it doesn't kill very reliably and is more useful as a utility. (Namely using the arrows he fires to make noise, using different kinds of arrows such as water arrows and rope arrows etc).

I don't really agree I see it moreso from games trying to include rogues/thieves but having to make them more like fighters just to balance the game out and make them fun to play. A good example of this is Dragon Age Origins where Rogues just specialize in fast attacking abilities and can also sneak around optionally.

Drizzt is a ranger. Which is a blend between a Druid/Fighter class. Rangers can wield most weapons like fighters can.

In AD&D the classes were much more rigid and less flexible than modern incarnations.

I'm glad to see we agree. However if it comes to fuck with others than my choice is always on the swashbuckler. Because i love to play as a Terence Hill like "fast and smug" asshole with a heart of gold.

you know, id never really considered what that'd look like in a real life setting; id always just considered fantasy to be separate from reality in terms of what'd look stupid and what wouldn't
i also hadnt really considered practicality
that said, that armor and the neverwinter one beside it looks impractical; wont bother looking at the other 3 in OP

was there any doubt?

I like Rogue.

Armchair warriors who are like noguns people pretending to be /k/ oldfags are way more fake and gay than anything in this thread.

Don't post this unless you want people to roll. Speaking of which, rolling.

OP, you're fucking retarded. The class works fine in tabletop games, you just don't play it and begin to assume shit.

You think the group Paladin is going to pickpocket, detect traps and stalk people? No, it most likely goes against his alignment.
What about the Druid? Can she lockpick, bluff her way into the criminal underworld for information and identify valuable loot to steal? Probably not, she lacks those particular skills.

You can have party members that aren't designed to join in the fray. Sure a thief has daggers, but he needs SOME protection. Daggers are light and easily concealable, if he was going to mug someone in a dark alley of a city it's a good weapon to use.

Granted modem tabletop has made thieves and rogues kind of retarded with their acrobatic combat, but if anything you can blame video games and media for making them crap like that.

I rolled dragoon the first time I did this and summoner the second. I liked those a lot better. Ever think we should make a revised version of this chart and add special jobs for trips, quads and major GETs? The first half of my post number is an anagram of the second half. Maybe that should count. Or maybe I want to be a class that can actually fight.

Sure, I'll roll.

Roolls.

Rollan

intriguing

Underrated post. Rogue is exactly what is written on the tin. Rogue. A smug schmuck going their own way doing whatever he want however he want. People buys the edgy crap because being a rogue associates with being a rebel and edgelords like being a rebel.

Mainstream designs are heavily exaggerated, edgy costume and knives everywhere are just for pop culture consumption and they know it is retarded to sell it to their mainstream pop culture audience aka 'retards'. A match made in heaven.

Good rogues would not openly carry weapons, he may not even need one in the first place; and his armour would be simple enough to get in and out fast without help yet protective enough and he would not openly wear in it public and like with weapons, he may not even need one in the first place. Daggers are preferred because they can be easily concealed, so they have on their person one or maybe two at most with a practical design and small enough to hide; Not the hugefuck 'daggers' the size of a forearm.

Barbarians/Warriors magilla gorilla their ways out of shit with hugefuck weaponry, Wizards cast spells and shift reality. Rogue trumps both because he can outpsyche/outsmart/diplomances the magilla gorilla and the wizard to get what he wants even without fighting if he so desired, heck, it is much more preferable to solve things without fighting because combat is a messy business. He plays dirty without other even knowing he is playing dirty. He is a stage magician, a con artist, yet a rogue stands equal to those of Hercules and Merlin and there are plenty of reasons why.

Also that Wow one looks more like a warrior or knight armor than anything stealth or agility related.

Yeah that about makes sense. This goes without saying; If your biggest skill is stealth, you should never be going 1on1. Also rolling.

Rolling.

Rollin

Let's get one thing clear here, the biggest issue with Rogues (and any derivative class) is that they aren't intended for hack&slash combat that most tabletop or videogame RPG's often devolve into.
They are mostly an utility class (thieves) or they have a specific purpose in mind (assassin) however because they can't literally farm mobs like warriors or wizards can, they will always lag out in XP because the only serious way to get XP in most games is with combat, the one thing Rogues are all about avoiding.

A proper game that features Rogues would need to have a very different progression mechanism that awards XP for getting shit done, not because of how much of a serial killer you are.
Vtm:Bloodlines does this fairly well, you can role with a stealth character for a very long while since you're given XP for completing objectives regardless of how you go about it. So does Deus EX too.

Another option is to have the game feature a sandbox environment where you can affect the world by stealing a specific item, gather information or take down a valuable target. Everyone is capable of doing any of these but Rogues would in theory have an easier job since they can avoid combat, the biggest obstacle between them and their goal, and thus not only have a place in said world but even justify traps and locks.

However since nobody ever cares about this shit, he always ends up being just a fighter with less armor but more damage, an emphasis on DOTS and Crits and limited invisibility.

Rollan.

its cool but hurts at the same time.Mfw no gf

I want to play as a doppelsöldner, not just as a fighting class but with all the societal stuff that comes with it.

Vidya incarnations are almost entirely broken because the Rogue was built to foil Gygax being a fucking dick. Like, have you seen that man's dungeons? You had no hope of surviving without someone who dumped all their points in lock picking, trap disarmament, etc. They have next to no hitpoints, can be geeked by a chump, and are the whole "Daggers" thing is meant to be played more like Naked Snake creeping up on a guy from behind and slitting his throat and less like bullshit Asscreed shenanigans. A proper Rogue player has a Shortsword and a bow. Daggers are meant only for throwing.

Also, that mini is painted like that because if you painted them solid matte black, it'd just be boring. Drab colors work just as well in the dark as black and give the mini depth, allowing different textures to show through.

Ninjas were primarily assassins. They were trained to fight of course, but ideally they never had to. They were't backflipping acrobats who could dodge arrows or anything retarded like that, but men who specialized in avoiding notice through stealth or blending into a crowd, striking quickly and without warning, and getting out before there could be retaliation. The more "reasonable" rogue archetype interpretations fit that, but a lot of games take it to retarded extremes.

Fun fact is that the "stereotypical" ninja outfit was actually the outfit used in Japanese theater for stage hands. The guys in the background moving the set pieces around that you're supposed to ignore. Then as a plot twist, one of them stabs the main character because ninjas could be anyone or anywhere and you never knew until it was too late.

So just like the Arabic Hashashins (where the word Assassin came from).

There were Shiite cults like the Ishmaelis, which is where the Knight's Templars and Freemasons got their inspiration from.

roland

Ninjutsu, the "official" martial art used by ninjas, is mostly about self defense, redirection and quick, precise strikes. It's an art that isn't particularly hard to teach as it's very specialized in it's purpose: get your average peasant able to avoid being killed as easily while also letting him actually kill someone in the fastest most efficient way possible.

Ninjas weren't highly trained elite warriors, they were peasants hired to kill someone, mostly disposable compared to regular warriors and samurais. Their stealth came from the fact that they worked the fields or various crafts before and even during their missions and as such they could infiltrate many places as actual workers. Kunais are considered ninja weapons when actually they were used as farm tools for many purposes, that's why they were used by ninjas so much, because you could hold one without drawing too much attention to you.

I'll disagree that "the more "reasonable" rogue archetype interpretations fit that" if only because they didn't killed people for the hell of it or even strictly for profit but because they were hired\forced to do so by someone trying to cut political strings.

If you want to add a few more fun things about them, the Jutsu's that you see in many games\anime that they perform where an actual tactic, but something entirely different. They were techniques to allow the ninja entrance or safety in hostile territory, so a Fire Jutsu was starting a fire somewhere nearby to draw guards and attention from your actual target (Mark of the Ninja does this), a Water Jutsu was using a straw to breathe while submersed and move through water canals, Earth Jutsu was wearing a cape\cloak shaded like a rock so you could done it completely over you and disguise yourself as a common rock, Air Jutsu was rope-walking, etc.

The funny thing is, there's a lot of historically correct Ninja stuff that would make for a very interesting game regarding this (but the closest we will get is Shinobido for the PS2)

In which games I can play as a edgy rogue/thief/assassin?

I want to be chased at Arabian rooftops.

assassins creed? i mean nigga wtf

Rawl xD

user sorry I forgot to mention that I played Asscreeds and some of the Prince of Persia games.

What else?

bump

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The original Thief class was based off of characters like the Grey Mouser and was nothing like what we see reflected in the average "Rogue" class of today. In fact, the OD&D description was as such:

Note that in OD&D, Magic Swords were the only weapons that had intelligence and magical abilities - meaning that a Thief wouldn't be using knives, but a nice fucking sword that could detect gold or disintegrate people or whatever the fuck else. Also, while I don't recall it being explicitly spelled out, it was very much assumed that Magic Armor was always Plate (seeing as, at the very least, the +4 and +5 varieties are explicitly made of metal) - meaning that, since DEX didn't adjust AC in OD&D that, fundamentally, the Thief was forever AC7.

Fun fact: The Thief concept was originally presented as a class to Gygax over phone call, and he made his own interpretation of it for release with Greyhawk rules. It ended up standing alongside Fighting-Man, Magic-User, and Cleric as one of the four OG classes. Within the OD&D-favoring portion of the OSR community, some like the Thief, others don't.

But going back to the original point, a Thief couldn't realistically stand toe-to-toe with a Fighting-Man. His shitty AC and HP are both going to fuck him. But if he does fight, he won't use a dagger - it'll be a sword.

The class degenerated from there, but it wasn't until WOTC-era that the stupidity of the dual-daggers truly began to manifest.

Checked

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I seriously hope you guys don't do this.

OD&D magic armor wasn't "enchanted", it was made from magical material. +4 was mithril alloy, +5 was adamantine alloy. Why? Because it was based off of the pulp fantasy of the time period, and to some extent literature and mythology. A wizard didn't just "enchant" a suit of armor; it was the product of a master craftsman with the absolute best material.

getting past the stupid armor design of WoW which is more of a universal problem rather than specific to rogues. they for the most part did it right atleast lore wise, all the rogue characters in the story were shifty, underhanded, and scoffed at things like honor, which is especially notable in the horde because its all they ever fuckin talk about. their commanders are sickened or embarrassed of using rogues but the results spoke for themselves. they used bombs, poison, gadgets and sabotage to get the job done. where the player comes into play was fucked, but they got better over the years, the combat tree was replaced by what is essentially a pirate, with grapple hooks, swords, and pistols, while subtlety finally got its identity in order as the guys who dipped into shadow magic for dummies. assassination was the only dissonant case as their thing was poison and bleed which makes sense thematically, the problem is that translates in gameplay to spending forever out of stealth stabbing your opponent like 4 times a second for barely any damage while your Damage over time effects do all the work.

roll

Stopped reading there, you're probably That Guy.

roll

rolling

Roll

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As someone who likes stealth games Ass Creed is honestly the bane of my existence.
Stealth was overnight cranked from "quietly getting in, doing the job and quietly leaving" to "quietly get in, publicly do the job and then have an epic escape sequence"

Genuinely painful.

This.

Lets rescue this thread: What games let me play as the roguest, cheapest character? Blowing my skills load into a specific target and then getting the fuck out, shamelessly avoiding combat and using traps and stealth attacks when I need to?
There's a lot of games like this but you also get combat skills like WoW's rogues, I take special pleasure on being really good on stealth attacks but useless on direct combat

Pic related comes to mind, but on a different, better game

And of course I'm looking for games that arent classic stealth games, of course those fit in my description

rolling

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rolling

Not everyone has cancerous taste in tabletop games but I do feel your pain OP

Why in fuck are there still complete faggots that complain about "realism" in games and worlds that are on their face, completely ridiculous to begin with? The guy in plate armor fighting the gigantic reptile that ignores all laws of physics, can fly with the speed and grace of a bird of prey, has the agility of a cat, and breathes fucking fire, really should have no more chance of victory than the guy in leather. They should both be fucked. But it's fantasy so we ignore that shit and have fun. And that's the answer to this asinine question, some people have lots of fun with Rogue classes and like the fantasy of that more than the fantasy you obviously prefer. How terrible it must be for you that not everyone shares your tastes.

Yeah, I bitch about tacky characters but as long as their shit isn't totally cringeworthy I don't go out of my way to do anything.
It reminds me of the obnoxious "LOL HOW CAN A DUDE WITH SWORD BE MORE POWERFUL THAN A WIZARD???" morons. It's like they've never even fucking heard of Greek myth. I love it when Fighters are able to throw 500 pound boulders and lift iron portcullises.

Rollan'

Come on Battlemage

Fuck it, I'm rollan. This thread is already fucking retarded on discussing realism in a fantasy series.

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I actually don't mind Altair's design. Everything else in that pic is trash.

That shield is too short. That's actually what this pic related was for.

I agree except for rogue. Rogue imo is more of a wanderer. He'll stab you in the gut if he has to but he'd rather con you out of your coin pouch and carry on, maybe go piss it away gambling. Rogue is basically a glorified wandering peasant. Rolling anyway though.

Haven't touched stealth games in a long time but this thread made me want to get back into a stealth game.

Played Styx a few years ago and that was a lot of fun. Not really interested in going back to the Thief games, tried them a long time ago. Anyone know any recent games that have good stealth elements?

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Heat Signature. It just came out in the past few weeks, and I at the very least like it. It's about breaking into spaceships.

yeah it looks like he should kneel with a standing guy in the second rank

They're not new but have you played Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell or the original Deus Ex? Because those are also stealthers. Well, the latter is only a stealther if you play it that way, but it's certainly designed to support the playstyle.

(Checked)
Rock and roll!

Roll

traps are gay tbh

Rollin'

What the hell does this class do?

(Checked)

I mean I get it's not as blunt as regular redditshit, but I'll still call you a faggot.

It's the Human of Classes: you get shitload of points, but no specialization at the start.

wow, getting two trips in one night, lucky me

rollin'

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rolrorl

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Mostly babysit an idiot healer, carry around a one trick pony loli hothead, and get stuck with a meatshield who wiffs too much.

ROOOLL

i have no picture for that..

Rollin fuckboys

Your RPG is now a rhythm game

Fugg, I even wasted dubs

Could be a lot worse.

Nice trips. I respect your right to call me a faggot, and reserve the right as well. I am aware that ironic shitposting is still shitposting but it was ironic.

rollin

Rogues use swords in 5th edition again, and still are the squishiest of squish, though they can use light armor. Short swords in 5e are Finesse weapons, meaning you can use your Dex as your attack roll rather than Str.

Yeah its almost like they suck at their secondary skillset.
Tabletop rogues are generally skill monkeys, not throat slicers. Thieves have the same deal, and assassins are usually the harder core version with actual swords and shit that try to destroy vitals.
Actually in a lot of systems their sneak attack is more of a blow towards ligaments and shit, not actually trying to attack organs. It can be used on constructs or undead, meaning it's more a 'Get them to stop moving' than a 'Aim for the jugular' thing.

Video games fucked it up since most of the time the rogue's traditional skill monkeying is just not in the game. Instead its basically always trying to be an assassin, about the only exception being Thief in which he actually is a proper tabletop one. He can't hold well in a direct fight, but can fuck someone up if they don't fight back, and has a lot of tricks. Also no knives, a sword and a sap.
So yeah, its not tabletop fags, its dumbasses wanting to have a magic acrobat and being uncreative.

rollin'

My condolences. Also rolling

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rollin

Rolling

I want to roll as well. I want to get what best suits my spirit.

Rolu

Rollan

Meh, why not? Rollan

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I dislike playing them in turn based games but I loved them in action games. We need better cloak technology, m8s.

Altair is the only one that's justified in wearing a hood.

roll, roll, roll

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>supposed to be good at murder, not combat
The Thief franchise is one of the last in which I actually felt like at a realistic disadvantage fighting someone trained for a martial profession – a guardsmen, knight or soldier – as opposed to just blowing through 25 niggers in five minutes like Assassin's Creed.

agree my dude

I'd like to see a assassin/stealth game that has a physically weak player character.
That also has to prepare and set up each kill using the environment and would get owned in any stand up fight etc etc.

It's about logical consistency. Romeo and Juliet was a fictional story about a fictional couple in a fictional set of circumstances – "fantasy" in the very sense of the word, yet even so, the story adhered to nuanced expectations of how reality ought to be; to put it another way, if Romeo started crying green tears of crystallized anti-freeze when he realized his beloved had killed herself, you'd probably ask yourself what the fuck Shakespeare was thinking and how it "fit" the rest of the character and story previously established. In a similar vein, if you call something a rogue – but don't have it adhere to the common conventions of what a "rogue" is defined to be, then people who do have an IQ higher than the amount of dollars asked for when Tyrone barebacked your mother, will call you out on it.

Again, it's about a sense of logical consistency you brainlets. Greek warrior-heroes throwing boulders or being nigh-immortal save for their heels is great, but if said greek warrior was previously described to you as "a peaceful female librarian who just wants to dust-off shelves her entire life" you'd ask yourself what part of throwing rocks at people and beheading snake women had to do with the character supposedly being a representation of a 20-something female librarian archetype – why not do away with the misnomer and call a spade a spade?

Rogues make sense to have dumb outfits though. Because a rogue is just someone who doesn't follow the rules. They're basically just a fantasy thug.
Now thieves and assassins in dumb colofrul outfits pisses me off. Look at this shit here, What the fuck is this? What secret organization of assassins dresses up in the whitest whites and the reddest reds? Altair is the worst of them all because he was actually raised by the assassins and this organization of assassins actually thought that red and white were good colors for a group trying to remain secret? Fuck off.

Rollin

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chain axes m8

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yes i posted pic
as
rolled berzerker
what am i missing here?

smh tbh fam