>Have strong...

>Have strong, cool woman that has plenty of room for character growth>Nonwhite for even more PC points>Stick her in a series where she's infantized with her blonde bimbo best friendWhat did they mean by this?

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>having fun = infantizedno

>>133066023The best thing that Steph ever did was die.

I wish I liked this series, but it treats Cass and Steph like novices. Compare to what Damian, who is younger than them, was doing in his last series. The only thing keeping me going at this point is that they brought back Mr. Fun.

>>133066023>Cass can suddenly read.>Not kiddie books but poetry and all that jazz>Asks the 'why should we save the villain' question, something she would never do.>Not called Black Bat but Batgirl.>Barely any mention of Barbara being like a mom for her.>Steph is nothing but quirky marvel-tier quipgirl>Instead of being someone who would give people the benefit of the doubt pegs her neighbour as serial killer just because he's weird. >Is called batgirl even though her outfit has 0 to do with bats whatsoever. Makes even less sense that's she's called Batgirl. Should've been called Spoiler.>Babs is suddenly against hacking into the GCPD for fucking intel for no reason>Also the main self-insert since she's eye-fucking with Dick Grayson every issue>Spellbinder used to want her tooI like all these characters, but under this writer it's just embarrassing. It reads like fanfiction with the writer quite obviously self-inserting as Babs. Suddenly being anti-hacking seems like the writer's opinion more than Barb's.

>>133066540I can handle Steph being treated like a novice if you do something fun with it, like have Nightwing pop up and mentor her more (personally liked that comic that had her want to go down that path) but Cass is just ridiculous.

New thread?>>133066023Very much a victim of the tone chosen, because DC still wants the batgirl brand to be tied to that.Still it is interesting that Steph is just as affected if not more now by getting more of a spotlight.Still the shades are cool.>>133066589I aagree with the reading thing, but admittedly cass was barely called black bat to begin with, she was batgirl for longer and had gone back to it.And steph does have the bat logo i guess.There are two writers for this one.

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One day you'll realize that Batgirl will always be Babs' title and anyone else is just a seat filler.

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>>133066600Eh, i dont think it works with steph either, unless you treat everyone in her group just as much.Its weirder with cass since if you go by the rebirth origin she's been around bruce almost as long as dick...

>>133066589I fucking hate all the Babs/Dick stuff. I wish all that would fuck off to Dick's book so I wouldn't have to read it.

>>133066617Is that why cass had a longer issue run than babs?

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It means Steph should have a Hat too

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>>133066654S'up hat, how's life treating you? A bit soon but eh.

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>>133066637>>133066589You're not allowed to write for DC in current year unless you record yourself squirting/cum tributing Dick and Babs while moaning how quirky they can be.

>>133066023I will always find it fucked up that Cass fans absolutely need Babs to rot in her chair and steph to always be stuck in second gear to make Cass look better as her derpy sidekick. They absolutely earned their toxic moniker. They use the Batgirl mantle as leverage for spotlight rather than caring if its appropriate for the character to take up such a role.

>>133066680It sometimes feels like the Batgirls writers would much rather be writing a Babs/Dick title. I was actually really mad when they introduced that Saints villain as a physical challenge for Cass and then had Dick show up and effortlessly defeat her.

>>133066639And yet despite that Babs remains the most popular one. Funny how that works? Its almost like numbers working off momentum don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

>>133066639Which I'd kill for more these days.

>>133066617Go to bed, Didio.

>>133066744Said the support of a character based purely on nostalgic fapbait from the 1960s.

>>133066715I cant speak for others but that's not really the case. You can defintely write a good cass while putting the others in other roles. Black Bat is more or less a comrpomise to let her do batgirl stuff while having Steph be Batgirl, its just that DC never used that at all.Also id dispute the "rot in a chair" thing since barbara did more as Oracle than as Babsgirl. >>133066744Babs is the only one that gets adapted as well, so its a bit of a circular argument. And sales wise babs didnt do particularly better than cass, she did do leagues better than steph so there's that.>>133066752Why? The current approach is basically what the babs book did just with the other two.Not defending it, but its something that started with it.

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>>133066623In a perfect world it would be neither but they seem desperate for a novice angle and there's more potentially fun ideas to do with Steph than treating Cass ' unironic best choice for emergency stand-in Batman' Cain like a rookie.

>>133066607>I aagree with the reading thing, but admittedly cass was barely called black bat to begin with, she was batgirl for longer and had gone back to it.When Barb was going back to Batgirl, Cass should've just changer her name to Black Bat. Tim changed his name to Red Robin when Damian usurped him.>Two writersNo shit, really? I hadn't noticed. I still maintain it reads like fanfiction.>>133066680It's just the writers getting more leeway now that Dan 'Dick destroyer du jour' Didio isnt at the helm anymore.

>>133066818>I still maintain it reads like fanfiction.Partly because of the self-congratulatory nature of the narration. Which makes its ever-plummeting sales numbers rather ironic.

>>133066715No she doesn't need to be in the chair at all. In fact a Babs/Cass team-up book would be miles better because it's Brains and Brawn. I say this as someone who loves Steph, but what is her role in the trio? Aside from the girl who has no regard for their secret identity.

>>133066806>I cant speak for others but that's not really the case.You're also the one of maybe 10 Cass fans who want her to be straight and with Kon so that's not exactly a majority.

>>133066840I have no idea why the Powerpuff Girls dynamic is so hard for people to grasp with these gals. Barbara -- Commander and the LeaderStephanie -- The Joy and the LaughterCassandra -- The Toughest FighterIs it not obvious?!

>>133066808Yeah, i can agree with that. Then again babs was treated as one too, and that's silly to me as well.>>133066818DC for some reason really doesnt want to use the black bat name, i assume for the captain marvel reason of there being a book with that name by another company. And maybe the akward thing of having babs sucessor be past batgirl if she herself isnt.Iirc they're a couple too.>>133066846There are dozens of us! Dozens :p.And ive met a decent amount of people that do like it, but usually ones that arent super into the fan circles, so there's that.

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>>133066715Do you seriously like modern Babs better as batgirl than her Oracle time? Forget fandoms.

>>133066738Lets be real, it feels like they want to be writing anything else than a Batgirls book. This entire thing is all three of them being incompetent and out of character.

>>133066744It's almost like she's the only batgirl who got some spotlight outside of comics.

>>133066863It does feel like what happens to the robins, but that'd be preferrable.

>>133066877Just reads like the writer(s) wanted to self-insert into babs and write her having sexy sexy adventures with Grayson, but wanted to bait Cass and Stephs fans into reading it for sales.It's kind of funny how the writers don't write any of these characters right. I mean shit like 'Babs hates horror' when her liking horror was a major plot point in one of her more famous arcs

>>133066868I like both. And Cass. And Steph. Go fuck yourself and your false dichotomy.

No one complains about how Kara shouldn't be Supergirl because her pre-crisis appearances were bad. Or most heroes, really. Babs is the only hero who people actively want to discredit as ever being viable in her original role based off her stories that are nearing 50 years old. You can say Oracle is super-duper important and necessary, when the truth of the matter is its so far removed from what people like about Babsgirl its fucked to think her fans should accept that. Especially when so many Babsgirl fans come from other sources than 50 year old comics. And especially after she had a near 10 year run post new 52.

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>>133066840Steph is there for Cass to sexually explore with a nurturing and submissive lover.

I like when she says KAZAM

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>>133066919Kind of the opposite impression I got. The Babs in this book is just pathetic on multiple levels. I get the feeling that the self-insertion is directed at Nightwing, and that is who the writers (or editors, lets be real there is no reason for their persistant fuckery of the Batgirl title to have stopped) would rather be working on.

>>133066938Erik "read my really weird porn comics that I spent an hour a page inking" Larsen.Sure thing.

>>133066938Probably because each writer basically re-invents Kara with each run. People also finally catched on that remembering Krypton is 1000 times more traumatizing and interesting than the baby in the rocket thing.Barbara is just boring to me. At least as Oracle she served a purpose. To the Justice League even. Can you explain why you think she's remotely interesting?>>133066943Gay. Steph is for Tim and Cass is for asexuality>>133066989>Kind of the opposite impression I got. The Babs in this book is just pathetic on multiple levelsThats post-flashpoint Babs in a nutshell though.

>>133066840> but what is her role in the trio?Thats always a bad approach to teams, imo, because then it ends up with characters working like some basic RPG.

>>133066938I think that comes more so because of two things, one she had a long run as Oracle for 20 years where she got more development on a cahracter level than she had beforehand and that in order to reinstate her as "the one true batgirl" her two sucessors had to be totally written out which was something that clearly didnt work since bat characters are generally popular. And Larsen's just wrong, Cassandra did sell. Stephanie didnt, in order to be fully transparent. He's also wrong about spider-woman, since the reason jessica was brought back was due to bendis having a hard on for her, mattie wasnt a sucess but julia had been spider-woman for a while uninterrupted none of them particularly sold well.And idk, people say similar stuff about barry all the time, because he was similarly pushed at the cost of his sucessors...On supergirl there's the thing that her sucessors are generally less liked, so that factors in as well.>>133066985Based

>>133067005That's fair. At least she isn't a hypocritical thundercunt like she was in Rebirth DC

>>133066938Supergirl fans are lucky they got such a beautiful looking series this year (just forget about the plot) would love that for one of the girls.

>>133066023>>Nonwhite for even more PC points>Nonwhite Sorry user, your waifu is a hapa.

>>133066938>confirmed Cass is a failure BASED ASEDNow cassfags wil finally shut up about it

>>133066989>(or editors, lets be real there is no reason for their persistant fuckery of the Batgirl title to have stopped)I mean our biggest clue that the editors who fucked with them stopped is that about 3 months after Didio left(about standard for comic production), Cass and Steph became Batgirls again. Almost everything points to Didio being the one who wanted to keep it as just Babs.I think the big problem is that its been so long since Steph or cass had a starring role that the editors find it better to sort of slash and burn their history and start from the ground up with them.

>>133067002>Steph is for TimSorry friend, award winning writing took care of that. The reason Steph wears layers is to hide the bite marks Cass likes leaving.>Source:Voices in my head

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>>133067067I liked true grit so i loved it. Even bought the trade. Being drawn by Dan Mora in World's Finest was just the cherry on top! With CW Supergirl finally dead us Supergirlfags ae thriving! All 3 of us!AND NO WE DO NOT LIKE THE SAME KARA, BUT ITS A BLONDE WITH THE ELCREST ON HER TINY CHEST AND GOD WE LOVE THAT THING ON THOSE TINY TEETS

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>>133067099>Bernard was literally forgotten by anyone who doesn't read batfamily fanfiction.The state of current DC writers/editiorial is embarrassing. Now I know how Spideychads felt when Slott was writing.

>>133066996Reminder that the current protag of Savage Dragon is a replacement. If someone was so inclined I'm sure the sales figures of SD prr and post changeover would be enlightening.

>>133067128>SpideychadsAnyone who's still following that disaster is a Mousecuck.

>>133067012Hypothetically if Barbs was removed from the batgirl situation how would you handle having two girls instead of three? Have Steph fuck off and spoiler and let Cass be the sole attention or do you like the duo dynamic enough to keep it?

>>133067155I'm reading it so I can feel relieved that I dont have an emotional connection to characters being written that terribly. By the way it's a real shame that DC never did anything with John Constantine after cancelling Hellblazer. Just a mini by Spurrier and thats it huh?

>>133067128>fanficHe wasn't relevant there either. There were a total of like 20 fics before that UL story, While Jason and Kon have something like 9-10k bewteen them. Those were some very powerflu psychics, but still. As far as literal who canon love interests go, he's not the worst choice, but no one was interested beforehand.

>>133067164Not him ofc, but I argue that Steph needs Batgirl(and the Batgirl mantle needs Steph) way more than Cass needs it. Trying to keep Cass as Batgirl forever will end up being a square peg/round hole situation.

>>133067111>so i loved it.Same I just put that in since I usually see it jumped on for hate when I discuss it on the board The coloring is so delightful I got it too, there's so many pages that are good for wallpapers. I always pop for Comet popping up too, Supergirl with a mount is cool!

>>133067002>Can you explain why you think she's remotely interesting?I would just much rather see a snarky, smart librarian redhead fighting crime. Yes its 50% aesthetics. Is that a crime? I ahve no interest in her sitting in a chair while some other character I don't care about as much does the actual action. I don't care about power level or importance wanking, I don't need her being the crossroads of the DCU, I just want her as Batgirl. Or Batwoman if she becomes that. Just not in the damn chair.

>>133067164Not him but;>Have steph be the detective and shit. Clues, theories and making suspect lists. Teaching Cass the way of the detective. Using Cass' more logical mind as bouncing board for ideas. She has a direct line with a lead detective. I'd say Montoya, but Bullock would be funnier.>Cass on the other hand is more active/interested in stopping violent crimes and patrols almost non-stop in the nights. Whenever she stumbles on things that require some READING or cases seem connected she calls in Spoiler. That way she isn't some glorified bodyguard. She also trains Stephanie in combat and teaches her to rely less on gadets but skill.All of this under the watchful eye of>Oracle. Who divides her time between being the League's, GCPD and Batman's information broker and leader of the BoP. She also has tabs on both her legacies, Cass and Steph, and tries to be less of an overbearing mom and have them find their own place in the hero-world. >>133067245I used to not like it, but I find that when I read things on here I get swept in the negativity so now that I'm rereading it, I love it.

>>133067304I still love this particular take

>>133067097Yeah, but we also know there was much fuckery from the lower levels due to Scott. Even Castellucci, who had to write a Joker War tie-in without even being told the basic plot of Joker War.>>133067201>Jon/Damian is a popular ship>age Jon up and make him gay>age Damian up>make Tim gay

The freckles used to bother me in the first few issues but the artstyle really grew on me. It's really cute. Maybe that bothers you guys since it compliments the idea that >>133066540 shared

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>>133067271>I would just much rather see a snarky, smart librarian redhead fighting crime. Yes its 50% aesthetics.It's 100% aesthetics and Huntress does it better imo

>>133067328ooooops. ;)I just want some nice StephKyle shipping.

>>133067271It's always the aesthetics. That's the only thing Babsgirl ever had.

>>133067354Huntress is way darker and less fun.

>>133067164I do like the duo dynamics (at lest in like a platonic/ideal sort of way) but i think that working off the current thing Steph needs solo time, so i'd make her Batgirl and Cass Black Bat (if you can legally). Both of them still actively working with Oracle, but having actual solo adventures that dont always involve the other, while still teaming up since they're friends and all.Steph has to do the more typical balancing a college life with a superhero bit, which is harder since she doesnt have superpowers and while she's great skill wise she's not quite a master while Cass is doing bat stuff 90 percent of her time.>>133067304This is a good one for them sharing.>>133067210I do not think necesarily that htre's an issue with keeping Cass as Batgirl, but that rn Steph is the one that on a meta level needs it hte most.

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>>133066023>>133066589>>133066540This series is written by a women, isn't it?

>>133067328Seeing how much Taylor loves Midnighter/Apollo I imagine someone veto'd that idea and he was stuck with making a bland guy with a potentially interesting power if they explore the downsides of it.

>>133067460Huntress is amazeballs. But yeah, she is darker.>>133067479Solid pitch buddy!>>133067482Co-written and edited by ladies (Becky Cloonan and Jessica Chen (and I think another Jessica is assistant editing too). And lettered and colored at least some of the time. But the artists and the co-writer are all male.

>>133067490Didnt taylor pair damian with cassie (WG) in dcseased?

>>133067508Obviously id like to write Cass the most, but at this current stage i think steph needs that.

>>133067508>co-writers twiceWhich is it?

>>133067541I think Steph needs it most in terms of building her fanbase, but I don't see why you couldn't have both have solos. Or all three. :)>>133067564co-writer means there's two writers, man. Becky Cloonan and Michael W. Conrad (also they are a couple IRL).

>>133067518Indeed but I binged a lot of Dceased and have no clue when the release times match-up. I ignorantly assume that was done before he knew he was writing a gay superman and ponder the pairing.

>>133067367I'm not attached to Steph/Tim, I just think they fucked up an incredibly obvious move to make.>>133067479That meta level is shit. If anything Steph should run independent as Spoiler. Lord knows her Batgirl run practically beat you over the head with idea that you're a worthless, pathetic loser unless you have a Bat on your chest and never stop apologizing for existing without one.

>>133067597You probably could, but if we're doing steph as batgirl i think actually fleshing out black bat could be beneficial.>>133067600I do very much agree with that as a criticsim of her run but still i am talking from the position she is right now.Tho i do think actually having her solo as Spoiler could work really well.>>133067599Somewhat likley.

>>133067597There's a main writer then there's the co-writer. So who is who?

>>133067597>also they are a couple IRLWhich batgirl gets the futadick when they roleplay fucking as Stephcass?

>>133067627>>133067600I strongly disagree about Steph's original Batgirl run saying "everyone without a bat sucks". Steph does have a fair amount of self loathing and guilt as a result of War Games, but I don't think the book is anywhere like the cartoon you're portraying it as.>>133067632Co-writers. Two. They get equal credit. No "main writer".

>>133067659Eh not that exactly but i do think her run states that pre-batgirl steph was a fuck up too much, more so than what she actually was.

>>133067600>>133067627I think one of the reasons the Bat titles feel a bit samey lately is because the heroes are almost never on their own anymore. It was fine when Detective comics became like a Batfamily book, but each book related to a gotham character had at least two family members as main characters.When was the last time any of the Batfam did something on their own with no other costumed ally? Aside from the back-ups.

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>>133067701We've gone over this before. The trades and singles weren't available for anything except War Games and Fab Nic's terrible Robin run. In those, Steph IS a screwup. And I still think it works in-universe because of the guilt Steph feels.

>>133067702That is true, it did use to be more of a special treat to see the characters togheter but that really cant be the case when it happens in what are supposed to be more invidiual books.They could have a group book ala tec and the more singular ones.

>>133067749I know the why stephbro, just saying that i stilll think its not ideal and that it can be a bit too condescending.

What do we think that Steph is having banana fever? Also do you think Kyle is here to stay or he is just a momentary love interest? Since Steph always has bad luck in general, I fear that he is going to be used as a plot device and then get killed

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>>133067776They're not gonna kill Kyle. He's one of Cloonan's created characters, and this book hasn't had anywhere close to that kind of edge. They killed the mean guy, but no one else.

>>133067634If they're anything like the majority of StephCass fans I've met, its Cass.

>>133067776Kyle was created by the writers beforehand in Gotham Academy so i doubt he'd get killed. But at most i can see the relationship lasting the run but not afterwards. That's the nature of most comic book relationships that arent too engrained.

I find the Batgirls book perfectly middle of the road so it’s wild to see Holla Forums hate it. That’s what waifus will do to you kids

>>133067776He'll become an asexual nice guy after the writers get tired of lesbians bot tweeting them.

>>133066023>What did they mean by this?Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown are destined to suffer for the crime of not being Babs.

>>133067659Then they both suck but the fact a woman is one of the writers explains all I need to know about the quality.

>>133067702Maybe I'm weird but I'm ok with bats being supporting cast in other's batbooks. 25 years of Nightwing comics and I struggle to remember his supporting cast after the Dixon era, and even they were pretty basic.

>>133067809I dont quite hate it, i think its pretty middle of the road, but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be criticized.

>>133067809Being emotionally invested is always better. Higher highs for lower lows.

>>133066023I legitimately do not like how they write the Batgirls in this one.

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>>133067659War Games is an exceptionally shitty story whose plot doesn't make any sense if you think about for five seconds and was expressly written to character assassinate and kill off Steph because of waifuism, and was so badly written it managed to character assassinate Bruce and Leslie in the crossfire. It's a dumpster load of a story that should be placed alongside that time Cass was a Navajo speaking murderer in the memory hole. >>133067634Going by their writing, they both rp as Dick.

>>133067903Was the steph thing done out of waifusim? Cause i get it was done to get rid of the family from gotham more than anything else.


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>>133067827oboy. Ok, mr "i hate roasties">>133067837There's criticism, and then there's "These writers hate the characters" "These writers should be ripped apart by the fandom, preferably tagged into those conversations so they have to see it" and "These writers are actually bigots who hate the real life minorities".>>133067903War Games is a concept I think would have been fine if they'd gone the clearly superior route of making it a "Steph redemption and levelling up story" instead of "kill character for sales" story.>>133067916Willingham says it was creative laziness and sales chasing.>>133067918love Iris's work!

>>133067831Yeah but having the entire family on the scene just isnt special anymore. It happens almost every month now.>In Damian's latest run they all showed up to catch Damian>In task force Z they all showed up to catch Jason>They showed up in Zdarsky's current run last month to job to Failsafe>They all showed up in Nightwing to protect haven>Joker War and Fear State had them all show up.Its just run of the mill nowEspecially annoying in Dick's case since he went to Bludhaven to be away from Gotham and now he's either in Gotham or when he actually is in Bludhaven on of the Batfam is there

>>133066715Pretty good bait my friend I'll take it.Cass is a monster, who learned to love. Steph is clever girl who bites more than she can chew.Basically proto-Damian and 63 Tim. If you prefer x23, and every normal little girl in marvel.

>>133066453Wrong. Giving birth is the greatest thing a person can do.

>>133067951I dont think the writers hate the characters at all, at least not here. At most i think they just dont get them, but that's a different thing.I can believe that, but i dont think it was a coincidence that they removed a lot of the family around the time of hte nolan movies.>>133067958Pretty much.>>133067963Cass and Laura are pretty similar overall, and of the two cass pre-dates her.

>>133066744Dc always pushes originals. Hal jortson is the most boring basic green lantern, etc, etc.

>>133067951Fans being able to @writers is such a terrible thing. Fans need a place to vent that's not going to be constructive for writers but noone wants to use forums/everyone uses twitter. It's not helped that said writers social media is so small they absolutely see some of the endless tags they get.

>>133066863Make this show.

>>133068015To be fair comics have had letters page since forever, and those are that fundamentally.But obviously twitter is...twiterr.

>>133066868I prefer how she is now to when Castellucci was writing her. Even if she's halfway stuck on the chair and relegated to Dick's love interest. that's how bad things have been.

>>133068005I'm quoting the haters. I think you are mostly reasonable in criticism and don't attack the creators as people.I didn't think about Muh Synergy, that's an interesting thing to consider.>>133068015the problem is that fans KNOW the rules - don't tag the writers with hate or negativity. If writers search their names, they deserve what they get. But the rabid haters of this comic say they KNOW the rules and are deliberately breaking them. That's totally asshat.

>>133068015Its even worse for artists, Dan Mora was getting tagged for how damian was colored..I don't think he even colored it.

>>133068070Yeah, i think i dont do that. I think even most writers that i think are bad arent usually bad people.Either that or them wanting to have a dead robin since jason was being brought back.>>133068089I do think he colors his own art, but still.

>>133066023You get more points for black characters instead. Extra bonuses if they're also handicapped and a tranny.

>>133066617Babs' reason for being Batgirl is the same reason as why Steph became Spoiler. They're equally legitimate. Babs doesn't get more points just because she did it a few in-universe years before Steph did.

>>133067749War Games also ended with Steph dead on panel, complete with autopsy and conclusive proof she kicked the bucket, but everyone seems fine about ignoring that section of the narrative.>>133067776>>133067791>>133067796Cloonan won't, but the rest of the writers are fair game. Which is also why I clench my ass whenever Maps shows up.>>133067916Didio's Babs waifuism. Granted he also had a hatedom in general for a lot of characters.

>>133067951Women can't write action stories & Cass especially is a character that is action oriented & serious.

>>133068224Babs became Batgirl to stop her dad?>>133068225...are you the guy who always claims that Steph told Black Mask that Bruce was Batman? Cause the most we see on panel is Steph flatlining. No autopsy scene. Birds of Prey does have Babs show the autopsy photos to Misfit, but that's explicitly retconned in Batgirl by BQM, not ignored.Who, exactly, is this mythical monster writer who's gonna kill of Maps? Only Tom Taylor would suck so much!>>133068228Birds of Prey by Simone is a great action story.

>>133068225To be fair, i dont think any other writers have used maps at all. Or any of the gotham academy people.Well at the time Steph wasnt really that tied to barbara, not being batgirl means that she more or less occupied a similar spot to say huntress.

>>133066715I love Babs and must admit she got much more character development while in a wheelchair. Oracle is just as strong a mental association for her as Batgirl if not stronger.

>>133068089I feel especially bad for Damian artists on twitter. They're pushed so hard as if they could ever do such a drastic change even if they wanted too lel.

>>133068301Maps was in the Poison Ivy Cycle of Life and Death series. But everyone else who used Maps was part of the original Gotham Academy team, I think - Karl Kershl, Brendan Fletcher, and Cloonan.

>>133068300Gail Simone is a terrible writer & person.

>>133068329Wait what was that book and when?>>133068322Oracle has also been used in other media a fair bit.

>>133068328Except they are listening; what with R'As given an explicitly dark skinned mother, and Damian's colorization getting more tan.

>>133068345Simone has some serious maturity issues. She's pissed of several fans and other pros, but I don't think that makes her "terrible".As for writing - I don't think she's written anything very good since the n52 started, but her original BoP run is a masterpiece.>>133068351Um.dc.fandom.com/wiki/Poison_Ivy:_Cycle_of_Life_and_Death_Vol_1_1

>>133068375Well that is a cameo, but still true enough.

>>133067958They literally moved Bludhaven to make it easier for him to crossover.>>133067951The problem is that there was nothing to redeem that wasn't created explicitly for the story. Steph had been a hero for just as long as Tim, and longer than a giant chunk of teen heroes appearing at the time. It's the same problem with Bette in Batwoman, you can't pretend a hero is a fuckup a decade or more after their debut.

>>133068422Well, I don't think that Steph really screwed up to get fired as Robin so much as Bruce was being ridiculous. He let the boy Robins rebel and disobey. But even though I agree that the whole situation was artificially created to make Steph screw up, I think that it would have been fine if their intention was to redeem her from the mistake they made her make and then push her to greater prominance. Instead, they killed her and blamed her for her own death.

>>133067845I also remember the Steph as Batgirls Wars and am fine not recreating

>>133068300No, that guy dislikes Steph. I like Steph and think that between the extensive preFlashpoint soft retcons, the explicit continuity reboots, and just how much people ignored shit from War Games regarding other characters there is no point in even bringing it up. It's like Identity Crisis, an ugly, pointless story that exists to shit on characters.

>>133068491Before my time, they involved a lot of waffles, right?

>>133068512The most frustrating thing about Steph in the fandom is that she has two black marks that fans will.not.let.go.The pregnancy.War games.And both can contribute a lot to her character development, but there's also people who will hold it against her forever, even after the reboot. As much as I understand the frustration with steph's flanderization over the years, I completely get why no one wants to touch those two storyarcs and opt to have her as the quirky quip girl of the family.

>>133066589Why would Cass go by Black bat?

>>133068631It is a weird thing to ask, yeah.

>>133068512The problem with ignoring War Games is that it's pretty directly resulted in the guilt from editorial that drove them being willing to push her as Batgirl, and lots of Steph fans love her Batgirl run, so it's hard to completely ignore it.With all its problems, I think it's still too much a part of Steph's story to ditch if you are a Steph fan.That being said, though I don't hate it as much, I do think it's almost completely forgettable if you're a fan of Batman himself. Nothing important or interesting really happens with him.>>133068624Why is the pregnancy a black mark?>>133068631Why not? It's a cool name!

>>133068624>the prgancyHonestly i think that just makes for funny milf jokes, nothing deeper.

>>133066617Which is why the title has been garbage since the new52

>>133066023Cass has always been shit

>>133068643I think that the other user is saying that its weird to ask that in particular.I do personally have very mixed feelings about it, but its more so by her role, or lack of, during that.

>>133068643>>133068647The pregnancy thing makes her a "slut" to a lot of people. There's always going to be a chauvinist element to super-heroine relationships and steph losing it to someone before her most popular ship, to a guy who's frankly pretty ugly, will always rub people the wrong way.

>>133068801...that is so stupid. Everyone makes mistakes.

>>133068643It's pretty fucking goddamn easy considering she doesn't even have the same continuity right now.

>>133068801Never heard that, but i guessi can see someone saying it.

>>133068836Her time as Batgirl and as Robin are both back in continuity as of both Nightwing by Taylor (see the Fear State arc) and Robins by Seeley (also referenced by Williamson Robin #5).

>>133068345I remember Gail Simone ranting about wanting Cass to be an avenging agent of the church and wear an all-white costume. She also thinks Cass being made mute was intentionally a racist and sexist ploy to silence an asian female. Then she wrote Cass casually giving off long soliloquies with the same diction as someone who's spoken their entire life. Simone should never be allowed to touch Cass's character in any form of work ever. Not even Elseworlds. Her few good works for BOP and even early Secret Six don't make up for the potential disaster and further damage to Cass' history. Not even close.

>>133068893What's Crystal up to right now?

>>133068920I heard the weird religion thing, but not the other ones.

>>133066659I’m tired

>>133068833And while that's true, a teen heroine is always going to be pressed to a different standard than an adult. Which is why Ms. Marvel, Power Girl and Catwoman can have pregnancies no one ever talks about, but Steph is still held accountable for a heavy petting session back in the 90's.

>>133068920Ranting? It was a pitch, man. And Simone's not the only person who thinks Cass fits into the "mute asian" - Gene Luen Yang said it too. I disagree, but I can see where they're coming from.And Simone's written Cass like...twice. It did not do damage. Most people don't even know when she actually wrote Cass. Jeeze. You are really unhinged.>>133068955Well, she ran off at the end of the Batman Eternal series, but Bendis said that she and Steph were in therapy in Young Justice.>>133069018Hmm. Well, I'll just have to be alert for stupid slut shaming in the future.

>>133069018Ironically that storyline was lauded for handling a teen pregnancy with sensitivity and decorum at the time of publication.Also Carol's pregnancy was directly brought on at least two occasions after the fact.

>>133069018>Ms. Marvel>pregnancies no one ever talks about

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>>133068920Exactly the kind of shit I mean.

>>133068958My memory may be a bit fucked but I recall it was either soon after or at the same time as the "white bat angel" idea.

>>133068920The problem is that Simone just writes everyone with the same voice with rare exceptions.

>>133069018Even then, its not talked about it much.>>133068988:(>>133069155I had just heard of the angel of hte bat pitch because it was so dumbfuck bad.

>>133069175I still think that Angel of the Bat sounds fun. But I'm a hardcore Christian, so I would. ;)>>133069166not entirely wrong. She's clearly heavily influenced by Buffy. But I like that type of writing, so I like it.

>>133069155Yeah, I don't recall the latter from Simone. I recall it from the people who made the Birds of Prey movie, so I can see where the wires might cross. >>133069195Is it weird that I also find the idea interesting as a card-carrying member of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy?

>>133069175Reading the bible WITH context is stll a trip. Cass would be out of her depth in more ways than one. Even just the gospels, there's a lot of room for interpretation. Not something she'd be able to convert from on a whim.

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>>133069038So not the preFlashpoint continuity.

>>133066540I mean, what is canon even anymore? The writers can get away with anything now.

>>133069215I am intrigued, my opposing philosophy brother (or sister) ;)

>>133069175>>133069195>>133069225Wouldn't a religious Batman just be Azrael deradicalized?

>>133069268>deradicalizedOr otherwise radicalized.

>>133069268We're talking about a religious Batgirl. And Cass and Jean-Paul have always had a pretty strong thematic parallel, and a strong connection in the Azrael series. Difference with the Angel of the Bat series is that the religion isn't part of her brainwashing, so it would be seen as a redeeming influence rather than part of his trauma.

>>133069038I can see it from Gene's POV also acceptable because he's based and not a schizo like Simon or Luna, but I also disagree with it. It's an integral part of her character that is directly tied to the fucked upbringing that made her that way. It's also a genuinely cool and creative subversion of the stereotype they assume it is. Just sweeping it under a rug and pretending it didn't exist means erasing who she is as a character and ignoring all her tough battles.

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>>133069215>I recall it from the people who made the Birds of Prey movie, so I can see where the wires might cross.It was in a written missive by Gail herself several years before the BOP movie ever came out. Fuck I need to hunt this down now. I'm not imagining it.

>>133069290>The I Am Not Starfire author did a cute Cass storyIt was surprisingly good too.

>>133069195Eh, it is a strange direction to take Cass in and for it to become the center out of the blue.>>133069225I can see her doing so if JVP is constantly preaching, but even then its just a really out there direction for the character, especially for her to center entirely around.>>133069268Basically, which is a weird thing for me that she didnt have her take the azrael name...

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>>133067111I agree! I loved the book! Sure, I wish there was a more satisfying ending but the homage to True Grit didn't bother me one bit.

>>133069285Radicalized is just normal Azrael. Deradicalized would make him less of a dogmatic avenger killing people with a burning sword.>>133069288So would you prefer Cass as is trained & redeemed by Batman or rescued & redeemed by Azrael? Maybe both?

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>>133069263Cass exploring what she believes about how the world works/should work/spiritual belief stuff is something that would grow the character in interesting ways. Struggling with he good she sees faith do for people against what some people do because of their faith. Though it is quite tempting to have her become Catholic due to all her guilt, I think more can be done with her questioning what it means to believe than with her just not having any opinion on it. Does that make sense?

>>133069318wednesdaytheology.blogspot.com/2013/08/angel-of-bat.htmlHere ya go.>>133069320Better than her becoming super evil tho.>>133069338Cass would be trained by Cain, redeemed by Batman, and motivated by JESUS!

>>133067245Why do people hate it so much? I thought it was wonderful! And besides the premise it didn't seem to me like it took that much from True Grit.

>>133069347Makes sense to me!The guy who wrote a VERY LONG fanfic based on the Angel of the Bat pitch is a Catholic, so that also makes sense to me.

>>133069290It doesn't matter if it's integral to a character. If you make a character a guy who puts on blackface and performs in minstrel shows but your intent wasn't to be offensive, you've still made a minstrel, and people will expect you to have a pretty good explanation. Intent is usually not relevant.As stereotypes go, Cass isn't the worst, but she is still vulnerable to writing that emphasizes her questionable details without good reason.

>>133069338Cassrael does make for a fun AU.>>133069348Well yeah, but that's not hard.

>>133069348Well obviously trained by her father first but I mean trained to be a hero vigilante after the fact.>>133069416Gives me drawing ideas for sure.

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>>133069225Just imagine Jean-Paul trying to teach her theology.>That's an interesting interpretation, and one that has parallels to several historical interpretations, but you're not going to find anything similar in modern thought...That's more of a Calvinist thing...I'm pretty sure Orthodoxy considers that a heresy...Eva takes some terms from Christianity and that's about it...Yes, Shinji is a whiny bitch...I mean, you're entitled to your opinion but she's not best girl.

>>133069038>And Simone's not the only person who thinks Cass fits into the "mute asian" - Gene Luen Yang said it too. I disagree, but I can see where they're coming from.Cliff Chiang and Vertigo editor Jenny lee are actually why Cass started speaking more.

>>133069455Cass would like Rei.

>>133069475How do you figure?

Its been a while and I admit I haven't really paid much attention to the character after the 90's comics, but is JPV really religious? It always seemed to me like his religion was mainly a product of his programming and he himself was a mostly secular grad student.

>>133068647It means she should have full teen milkers.

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>>133069501He is rather religious, but i think that's something that became more the case after his turn as batman.>>133069612Yep.>>133069430Oh one of my comms!And you a drawanon? Anyone i already know :p.>>133069612And milf jokes.

>>133067099>"It him?">saying "BecoolStephanie" out loudSteph's autism is one of her best traits.

>>133069745Isn't it?

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>>133069470Something also to consider is that Cass' difficulty with language is something that can't really last as character trait.

>>133069807Considering she's making up for lost time having missed out on a TON of language and reading acclimazation during her formative years, it's actually rather astonishing that she'd make any progress at all.

>>133069807You've obviously never worked or lived with someone who has a disability before.

>>133069807Eh, even when she learns fully as someone who would have larnt it so late and her own cahracteristics, it should never be super easy for her. But as long as we can see it i dont mind it.

Anyone else appreciate that the girls strip out of their work clothes as soon as they enter the door, and in front of some GINORMOUS WINDOWS where a moth might spy on them through?

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>>133069988Babs, I've got three words for you

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>>133070027HACK THE PLANET!!!!!

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>>133069656Amateur one but yes. Not known yet but I do sketch from time to time.

>>133070068Oh you got any drawing of the girls?And do you do comms? (Hey i gotta ask)

>>133070089I've yet to draw Cassandra but maybe one day.Maybe once I'm more confident with my skills.

>>133070115Any art at all?Im sure it'd look good :).>>133070049Well shit like that becomes more and more likley every day.>>133069988Ah right, sweaty cass happened.

>>133070137Nothing bat related yet.

>>133069745>>133069791Spazzy dork Steph supremacy. Steph was already a bit of a nerd but hanging with Tim for years made her a straight up geek. Normalize the "Spoiler is Steph's Spidersona" fancanon from a few threads ago. This girl is geeky.

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>>133069877She doesn't have a disability, she has a stupid backstory. She is obviously fully developed in the language center of her brain and doesn't have a physical condition preventing speech.

>>133069498She can relate to being essentially a weapon with poor communication skills.

AI has some interesting ideas for a Batgirl suit.

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>>133070153Still could be nice.>>133070373It was directly established that due to her backstory the language sector of her brain wasnt fully developed, like that was said in the book.>>133070275She had instant messanging back in the 90s, she was a dork.

>>133070581That's nice, but that's not how language works. She can fully process language at normal rates. Her only issue would be getting used to moving her mouth.

>>133070606Yes, but comic book logic.And she also has to learn how to actually use langage and learning all the proper words,grammar, ect.

>>133070606She can't process language if she wasn't taught what the words mean. She could mimic the words she hears if she tried but it's not the same as understanding them.Also you gotta remember this is comics & Cass can break bullet proof glass with her fists.

>>133070621Sure, I don't object to the comics logic, just to the idea that she has a real disability.And she already has the grammar or else she wouldn't be able to understand anyone. Internalizing a language's grammar is one of the most critical steps in learning.>>133070625Except she obviously picked all that up anyway. But yes, comics and all that.

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>>133070653Not really. Babs had to teach her english. At best she knew basic orders.

>>133070653I dont think i ever said it was, but sure its not a real disablity. Although i do remember her being dyslexic was specifically mentioned by that name.Eh, getting to that point did take her some time, and a lot of that was understanding the base body languge.

>>133069871>>133069877>>133069880Realism and Cass don't mix. Someone with her background would need assisted living, not be a kung fu god. >>133069988>Oh, it feels so nice to come home and strip in front of these massive picture windows, I hope there aren't any ne'er-do-wells on the rooftops spying on me while I'm vulnerable an->Babs, who are you talking to?

>>133071013Yeah wont disagree.

>>133071013She fight good. She no need higher thinking. Cass strongest there is!

>>133070653A telepath rewired Cass' brain. This is the canon reason she's not completely fucked regarding language.

>>133071197Basil helped. And I'd like to think Babs kept up the tutoring offscreen.

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>>133071197Well pre flashpoint, and that was admitebly rather dumb.>>133071193Hey Cass can be pretty smart, its just harder to communicate.Kon did get it :p

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>>133071013>it feels so nice to come home and strip in front of these massive picture windows>Heavy helmet breathing intensifies

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>>133071324Cass deep thinker. Read many books in library. Cass philosopher.

>>133066639cute art

>>133071474Well cass doesnt need to read to not be dumb.

>>133071474>>133071193I didn't realize Cass posted on 4chan. Seems more like a Steph thing.

>>133071394>Fine, I may get a little excitement that maybe someone could see me through the window. Can I just die of shame now?>It's cool. I let Connor peek with his supervision. >My god, you two, am I the only person here with normal fetishes?

>>133066453Yes. Steph being a fuck-up was great. She kept trying, she was in over her head, she made mistakes and then she died for it. It was great. We don't need more Batgirls bloating the roster when there's already 2 capable Batgirls, 1 Batwoman and then whatever Helena is meant to represent. Adding Stephanie is like adding *another* Robin. But in the vein of like "oh god *another* human Green Lantern. Never saw that coming." Except her gimmick was being not as good was endearing. Now she's just as competent as the others so it's like well who gives a fuck?

>>133071890Cass intellectual. Learn poetry.>>133071938Cassandra likes the funny pictures.

>>133072004>acting as its not Cass that peeks

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>>133072004>>It's cool. I let Connor peek with his supervision.>The following day, Babs lead lines the walls of her bedroom

>>133072034Well shakespeare.

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I like seeing a Babs with a lot of hair.

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>>133072010I do. I've seen steph go from being a scrappy young hero to being more established. It was a fun journey to watch

>>133066023I love Batgirls!

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>>133072660Based dronebro. Wish you had more art.

>>133072660Case getting regular hypnotized is superior and more likely than drone CassAlso kinder since it doesn’t fully violate her freedom

>>133072660A bit late arent you?

>>133072810Mind control is hot.

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Spoilers for Batman #128Poor Barbara

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>>133072974So she's getting mind linked in zardasky's batman? He's been using the other characters kinda poorly so far

>>133072910I prefer kind control. When the mind controller is a positive entity trying to help them Personally I’ve always liked the idea of a “reformed” and misguided Poison Ivy trying to do good the only way she knows how

>>133072655What would you like next for Steph/

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>>133072660>Alright, weirdos, we've had enough. We bust our asses every night to save this city, and what do we get? A bunch mouth breathing internet jerks showing us their depraved spank material! Who does that? Who thinks, "this woman just saved my life, better show her drawings of her being turned into a brainless fuckdoll?" It is degrading.>Disgusting.>Exploitative.>Demeaning.>Objectifying.>I like the full body latex though.>Se-what?>And the gag that lets me stick out my tongue.>Cass, you're just gonna encourage them.>Maybe add a buttplug?

>>133073320>>133066654>I like the ears. Very dramatic.>...does the buttplug have ears too->NO!!

>>133073364>Cass, why would the buttplug have ears? >I don’t know, maybe for style? >the whole point of that would be so we could feel it. If we’re drones our minds would be turned off >ok but still it could >how are we supposed to feel without thinking Cass? >well, have you ever been in love? >shut up

>>133073405>>how are we supposed to feel without thinking Cass? >>well, have you ever been in love?

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>>133073405Cass just thinks they're cute.

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Which batgirl smells the best and what does she smell like?

>>133073320>>I like the full body latex though.>Babs makes a mental note to double check her special hidden drawer... and maybe try on a few things later

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>>133073660Babs. She smells like lavender, ash, and rubber.>>133073663

>>133073660Cass takes loooong showers, but also doesnt do much hygen outside of that.

>>133066023If there’s one thing I learned about batgirl it’s that no one will ever agree and people will always complain about getting the wrong flavor of ice cream. Babs is vanilla, Cass is chocolate and Steph is strawberry.

>>133073713Well, to a point. Tho i guess you could offer all 3 separatley. But i doubt that'd sell well.

>>133073364>>133073514>Cassandra, I'm going to preface this by reiterating that I bring a sensuality into my persona as Batgirl. Perhaps even an outright sexualization at times. I enjoy a healthy and active sex life that I am not ashamed of even if my choice of partners has not always turned out ideal. I don't want you to think that I am trying to shame you or prevent you from expressing your own sexual interests. But I came home to find seventy boxes from Sexy Times of Gotham Lingerie and Sex Toy Emporium stacked out by our front door. >>133073660Bette.

>>133073829Look she saw it in a crumpled up magazine in kon's room while she was...watching.

>What did they mean by this?Auto-ban.

>>133073907That makes me wonder, would Cass trying to be sexy come off as awkward because she's working off what tv tells her is sexy or would she come off blunt and aggressive because she doesn't do subtle?

>>133073963Both at the same time.

>>133073829>But I came home to find seventy boxes from Sexy Times of Gotham Lingerie and Sex Toy Emporium stacked out by our front door.>When Bruce gets the credit card bill

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>>133074085>The next time Conner drops by to pick up Cassandra for a date

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>>133071238Nice job, Babs. Purposely start her off with a fucked sense of sentence structure that no real person will ever use in daily life.

>>133074159Speak for yourself. Bitches love iambic pentameter.

>>133073829>I bring a sensuality into my persona as Batgirl. Perhaps even an outright sexualization at timesHer best aspect

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>>133073320>Disgusting.>Insulting.>Demeaning.>Idiotic.>Objectifying.Fixed it for you :^)

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>>133073701Baths. Cass takes long-ass baths.It was canon in her old book

>>133073986Both AND supereffective because she can tweak her approach on the spot based on her target's unconscious reactions.

>>133066540>Compare to what DamianThis would be Damian Wayne, the kid who's been since birth engineered to take over Ra's sl Ghul/Batman's legacy, whose whole thing is to be hypercompetent ass specifically because he's got a God complex about himself that often bites him in the ass because he's far too young and inexperienced to be so cocky and smug just because he's very smart and skillful for his age? That Damian Wayne? Cass and Steph being novices is entirely fine. Cass' whole thing literally is that everything that's not physical or martial arts she isn't that great at. Meanwhile Steph was always the least competent member of the Batfamily. Repositioning them the way they act in Batgirls is entirely fine. It works and actually gives them a specific type of dynamic.

>>133074561Does the new place have a tub?

>>133066607Is her "Orphan" stuff canon or not, now?


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>>133066153What you and so many writers fail to realize is that being LOL WACKY isn't the same as being fun. You can have moments of levity and fun and still being a more thoughtful character. There was plenty of that shit in her old run.

>>133074581I think it was mentioned what they have, but I do not recall

>>133074606I think the issue is that the characters don't line up well with previous characterization. Especially Cass, who is generally considered to be poor at communication.

>>133074596I know some people complain about Punchline being pushed so hard, but I love this bitch.

>>133074623Cass should be written as ESL

>>133074623Characters are allowed to grow up and change. Especially when it benefits thr character. Crying about something not being perfectly in line with how they were almost 20 years ago is stupid nostalgia driven fanboyism. The new dynamic works for the characters. They were way past the point of needing an update. That's how characters remain vibrant and appealing, rather than stale and boring.

>>133074623I just think the writers needed to reevaluate the characters after the initial first arc. Hopefully they've brushed up and our girls will be more true to form by next arc.

>>133074656>Characters are allowed to grow up and change. Especially when it benefits thr characterAgreed. But not every change is a benefit. And this is not a benefit. More to point you shouldn't get rid of there more defining traits as if they never mattered in the first place. That's idiotic. You could put anyone under the mask at this point. There's evolution and then there's flagrant disregard and you can't ignore the latter with some weak hand wave head canon excuse.

I still say Paris Franz would make a great Batgirls villain. Only, which one would he rape?

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>>133074694>And this is not a benefit.How is it not when it actually rehabilitated and gave them an engaging new dynamic while also resolving "you can't have more than one Batgirl" issue?>More to point you shouldn't get rid of there more defining traits as if they never mattered in the first place.Cass being able to read is not a defining trait. Cass becoming less autistic and chill young adult is an improvement because it makes her more relatable and natural for progression and normal character stuff when she isn't a high performance functioning social klutz. Steph lost her "defining trait" the second she stopped being the farm league member of the BatFam who never could compete at the same level as everyone else. And when both characters were brought back after their hiatuses they were already different. Going back twenty years isn't improving anything, it's regression for purely nostalgia reasons.

>>133074794>How is it not when it actually rehabilitated and gave them an engaging new dynamic while also resolving "you can't have more than one Batgirl" issue?Because it actually regresses their relationship, put them all back into a position they've been in before but better and reduces any independent growth they may have all had under their own mantles so they can share a more brand happy one.

>>133074842>Because it actually regresses their relationshipIt's actually beneficial for them because it doesn't gives them all a mutual platform rather than play favourites and ignore the others. They don't suffer from regression.

>>133066023They mean Batgirl(s) is an IP aimed at young girls and corporations have been infantilizing that target audience, amongst many other now, for decades.>>133066617Batgirl is filler. She is literally a spin-off Batman for little girls.

>>133072056>cass is a voyeur who doesn't really understand sexual pleasure>just likes watching people do anything out of curiosity


>>133075495It checks out.

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>>133075702>I wanna know!>Can you show me?>I wanna know about these strangers like me!

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>>133070373>>133071013Allow me to phrase it like this: Her entire brain is weird in a super-powered way with the drawback of having trouble with normal language. It works well as a metaphor for certain disabilities, and the loss of that so casually detracts from the character since it makes her flatter. It's like if Cyclops could control his eyeblasts because of something that happened off screen.


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>>133066023I hate that Cass got reduced to a quirky teenager just for the sake of interacting with the other Batgirls at the same level. The main appeal of her character wasn't because she was a cute girl, but an unapologetic badass superhero who also had sympathetic elements.

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>>133077567Most people don't know how to write female characters or likeable badass heroes anymore.

>>133074108Kek>>133074573It becomes both a boner for the body and for the hear since she'd be cute trying.>>133074575I think the problem is more so that Cass is potrayed as a novice in a lot of the fighting stuff, as in the part she really isnt and not really with stuff like reading.>>133074561Well yes baths, i meant to say baths. Tho showers were also mentioned. So maybe she does both.>>133074596Punchline has a good design ngl.>>133074587It seems that way, but it can be a bit confusing.>>133074656They are, but if that change happens off screen it can be disconcerting and off putting.>>133075495Cass does get it, but doesnt get that watching people is weird.

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>>133078284Shitty filler villain from the Killing Joke movie.Not interesting in the slightest, unless like the user you're answering to, he triggers your rape fetish.

>>133078303ah that dick, didnt remember his name

>>133074656>Characters are allowed to grow up and change.In comic books?! No they aren't. They always return to the status quo.

>>133078394Eh not always, depends on a lot of stuff really, mostly what editorial's toughts are. And if they do have a longstanding status quo or not (and sometimes even that doesnt really factor in since something that's lasted decades can be arbitrarily changed).I wouldnt say there's necessarily an issue with growth and change, but there is if its totally offscreen and removes the appealing points of a character completely. I dont think batgirls is quite at that point, but with cass it becomes more excessive as it goes.

>>133078445Look at Babs to know it always goes back to status quo. After Dark Crisis, it'll all be another pointless deconstruction that'll just put everyone back to zero. Again. Everyone in the bat family especially suffers from this. Tim can't be more than Robin. Batman will always be Bruce. Damian will never actually keep his character growth.

>>133078486Well that was after she had had a status quo for longer than the previous one. And while she did become batgirl again, it didnt exactly match how she had been potrayed as batgirl before. Id say it was degression but not a return to status quo. Plus it was more editorial's whim than anything deeper than that. And these returns to status quo, dont usually include however they were characterized before.I dunno if the point zero thing cause it seems like every book is continuining, generally dark crisis seems very un-massive for one of these crisis.Damian and Tim are very much in a constant cycle, i do agree with that.

>>133078128>Cass! You can't just spy on people, especially when they're having sex, it's weird and creepy!>I know. It's also really hot.>>133078445Cloonan and Conrad just need to give Cass one good fight scene and they wouldn't get so much flak. As long as she fights good people are going to tolerate more of their other issues writing her.

>>133078584I mean, she's regularly portrayed as super-competent in fighting.the Saint who was supposed to be her match was smashed, and only being on a utterly superior position in flying gave Killer Moth the chance to escape her.

>>133078538I think with Damian it underpins just how little there is to his character despite his sixteen years of existence. If you take away his arrogance he doesn't have much left to distinguish him. People say that Tim is the boring one, but he largely defined the modern concept of Robin to the point that retrospective stories and adaptations pull from him rather than Dick. Damian literally exists to contrast against Tim and has trouble standing alone once you start chipping away at it.

>>133078705I said a good fight scene, not her winning a fight. Also Dick bodied Valentine when he encountered her, which kinda cuts Cass at the knees if she struggles against her.

So far her opponents have been>Discount Cops from a failed regime>A teenager hacker>Speelbinder>Some who cares serial killer>Mother fucking Killer MothAll of them Cass hasn't shown off or had any type of badass moment. Who is next Condiment King? This is why girl superhero comics fall flat, there is no fucking tension or struggle.

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>>133078762Cass utterly owned Valentine while Babs was telling on the com she was a match for her.

>>133078796Did Cass even hit Valentine in their first interaction? I don't remember that.

>>133078821dropped her on a wall, IIRC

>>133078705She would utterly one-punch Moth in a straight fight. But it's nice to see she isn't infallible. It's also quite possible she'll make up for it in the next issue. Here's hoping, at least.

>>133078844>>She would utterly one-punch Moth in a straight fight.she's one punch Moth in a FAIR fight.Moth is not likely to give her one.But yeah, while a juggernaut against anybody fighting her on her terms, she's not invincible.

>>133078844Cass hasn't had a good fight to allow her to show off her stuff since Batman & the Outsiders ended.

>>133078584>Kon was only scared the first time. Read the body language.>That still doesnt make it okay, cass. There's such a thing as boundaries.>We do it all the time at night.>That's criminals, that's different!>Barbara does it from her computer too.>Oh.And yeah to a point i agree. >>133078727I think damian is more so there to contrast with others like dick, and tends to work best in those cases. But that's not untrue either.>>133078895That is true, but its also true that so far the book hasnt really given her any moment to show off, and with her personality feeling generally off and her just reading totally fine now, it does seem like its not the most cass-like cass.

>>133078987frankly I read this book's Cass as a Cass who has blossomed beyond the limits of her Secret Origin trauma.She's now living her adolescence... at 21.as her reading, I'm headcanoning she can now read perfectly well but she is SLOW and\or needs A LOT of concentration.The authors showing her still having issues would help though.

>>133079063Again, that's just kinda hollow if all of that happens offscreen.And Secret Origin isnt a place cass was written in.And idk, her personality comes out as delibertaly self grim, when Cass did have something of a snarky side to her before, with some boastings and stuff.

>>133079063>The authors showing her still having issues would help though.If they are, it's so subtle as to not be noticed.

>>133079063Regarding Cass reading, i do like an idea a friend suggested once, which is that she'd use audiobooks to help while she goes over the book.

>>133079094>And Secret Origin isnt a place cass was written in.didn't mean the book, I did mean her "superhero origin" as "traumatized by killing a guy as a kid who could read body and thus saw the vanishing of his life">>133079094>>And idk, her personality comes out as delibertaly self grimCass in this book doesn't really seems "self grim"

>>133079261Ah gotcha.Im having some trouble describing it, but i think far too many of her personality traits arent really there. And basic stuff like the whole "we cant?" thing over letting people die.I dont hate batgirls, but as it goes on its take on cass becomes less strong to me.

>>133079448you know what would help this book A LOT?Replacing the INFURIATINGLY USELESS Omniscient Narration Boxes with internal dialogues of the characters.A lot of issues seems to come from our limited access to their thoughts

>>133079487Yeah that'd help a lot as a whole. Dunno why its there.

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>>133079660I think it's an attempt by the authors to write "cool" and "hip" narration boxes

>>133079885Guess they wanted to be fun.

>>133080038yeah, but they fail

>>133079885Theyre not particularly cool or hip. And they already kinda sound like how they write steph.

>>133080101exactly. It took me a lot of time to realize it wasn't Steph narrating.seriously, the narration boxes are the worst thing of this book and they literally drag it down by being so shit.

>>133080145When it started to reference issue stuff.They do make it a lot harder to do more charitable interpretations at times as well.

>>133079448Performative is the word I'd use. Several of her actions come off as someone saying a line rather than a natural statement. Though I think this series has a real bad issue of forced elements, like the whole reading is fundamental thing.>>133079487>>133079660>>133079885It's an attempt to ape Stan Lee, forgetting that Lee's narration wasn't continuous and he directly addressed the reader as the editor.

Any chance Steph goes back to teen mom but with Kyle this time? I feel it’s the most monkey paw thing that could happen

>>133080188In current year, monkey paw would be some hamfisted abortion plotline.

>>133080188Modern comics would have steph want to have an abortion. Old steph was actually fairly conservative and rightwing, which is funny because it meant Dixon had to write Tim as comparatively liberal to talk her off that.

>>133079487I think the weirdest thing is that they feel so close to Steph's old diaries.monologues..but they aren't. And Steph and Cass especially benefit from internal monologues. Steph because so much of her actions are posturing over her real, insecure thoughts, and Cass due to being hard to express herself.

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>>133080174Yeah i guess that's what id say. It also does lessen the contrasting dynamic between cass and steph.Well yeah it was far less constant, and really most notable in the letters pages.>>133080281Admtebly cass's internal captions are more so the thing in gabyrch's run, and i do have some very mixed touhgts on that run.Do agree they're pretty essential for steph.

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>>133080304I think captions help Cass if you don't have an artist good at expressions.

>>133080371True, tho the contrast of steph having an internal caption and cass being only visible via the artwork and dialogue could be great.

>>133072910is it?


>>133080371>>133080386Compromise: Cass's internal monologue is emojis and crude drawings.

>>133080694>Serious looking Cassbats is standing behind Dick>Thought balloon is a peach and grinning smiley face

>>133078771>nigga doesn't read comics

>>133078771>Condiment King?>Batgirls vs master of kitchen improvised chemical weaponsCass' mask might provide some protection, but Steph is once again the weak link due to her mask habits.

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>>133080694>>133080765>workout training with family>sees Dick doing squats>Cass emojis are bat eggplant peach bird

>>133080304igger Cass hits different.

>>133080694only emojis.crude drawings are Bart's thing.

>>133069430>azcassThat doesn't make sense, JPV is dead and DC forgot that Michael Lane exists

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>>133081358Isn't he alive rn? with a solo?

>>133080998>dressed in condiments calls them costumed clowns>Joker face>"ever heard of this spiciness scale that everybody and their mother knows about?"There's a lot to unpack here, Jesus Christ.

>>133081358Jean Paul Valley's been alive for a while in the New 52/Rebirth continuity. Besides this is a hypothetical AU.

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>>133081403He has the Joker face because he was jokerized along with the other Arkham inmates during a mass breakout.

>>133081402death doesn't seem to mean anything in DC now

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>>133081626>nowDeath hasn't mattered in comics for many many decades.

>>133081626He's been alive since rebirth hasn't he?

When it comes to narration/internal monologing, I tend to think less is more. Not that I want to be a stranger to Babs', or the other girls, thoughts, but it shouldn't overwhelm a page.

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>>133067600I actually really enjoyed her arc at the beginning of Rebirth Detective Comics, mostly because it seemed to argue that she ready to move past that idea of the bat symbol.

>>133082070Out of all of them, Babs' inner monologue being practically vomited over the page when she's having drama is fitting.

>>133081417fun book!

>>133082233Fitting, but not always entertaining

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Between the fish and the dumpster, I'm starting to wonder...

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>>133083364I like the art

>>133083382Cass is very expressive. Spidey style.

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>>133080694Well this book did that with her toughts. But emojis work more.

>>133066938>No one complains about how Kara shouldn't be Supergirl because her pre-crisis appearances were badbecasue they weren't

Is this the first time Babs explicitly asks for sex on panel?

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>>133067245> jumped on for hatebecause it was bad

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>>133072974>>133073008There's something deliciously ironic about Babs being droned. She can be the subservient queen of the hivemind.

>>133084009Neither were Barbara's. She was an actively used character until Crisis, and her diminshment had a lot to do with a Bat editorial hostile to a lot of traditional Batman elements that had been in place since the 70s. Within 2 years of CoIE they had killed Jason, crippled Babs, and dropped Bruce from the Justice League while keeping Dick exiled to the Titans.

>>133084741There's few things worse than an editor that's self concious about the trappings of the genre when it comes to the funny books. Methinks they're in the wrong business then.

>>133082070Thanks to the lack of inconsistent artists assigned to arcs I had no idea that wasn't supposed to be Dick in a fancy shirt until his name was literally dropped on page.

>>133084741My favorite is when people say >Babs retired as Batgirl before TKJ!Not realizing that it was done on purpose to take her off the playing field as an active character.

>>133084852>Tall, dark haired pretty boyGuess she has a type

>>133084741Well that was due to the books tone in general changing a lot, and in general already o'neils revamp didnt include them outside of dick too much. And that era is what had shaken off the 60s show from batman. Which was the main aim with a lot of that stuff.>>133084856That's more so an argument when people say that TKJ wasnt intended to be canon than anything else.>>133084885I think if anything her type is people that wear blue, like at some point it cant be a coincidence, can it?

>>133084934Babs doesn't really have a "type". It's not because she doesn't have preferences, it's mostly that she's a slut

>>133084806We're a good 40-50 years into a significant portion of the comic industry being ashamed of comics. Which is sad because there are a lot of creatives who get that comics are supposed to be garish and whimsical. I was at a panel about Gotham City at DragonCon and when the notion of realism was brought up everyone on stage just started giggling at trying to make Gotham realistic.

>>133084934>TKJ as non canon argumentPeople argue against this? They exist? It literally kicked off Elseworlds.

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>>133084934The camp era of Batman comics had largely ended by the time the show came around. O'Neil/Adams is less of a change than most people think.

>>133082070Good lord, wtf was Babs wearing on that date? She looks 40

>>133085180She didn't really get a fashion sense until Babs started drawing her. Even now it's hit or miss.

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>>133085180She looks better in a plain white shirt and jeans.

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>>133085101According to others in past threads, it was always meant to be canon. Moore either didn't pay attention or he was only told mid way through.

>>133085205It should be a rule from now on that anyone drawing Babs has to consult with a woman between 25-35 on what is currently fashionable but not in a way that will look dated in a few years.

>>133085647Yep. The other girls are fashionable enough.

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>>133085673Cass watched too much anime. Now she's a scene girl.

>>133085673Cass would bring home whatever outfit her reality TV thots wear, and Steph and Babs would have to sort her out.

Steph needs to take some pointers from Kara.

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>>133085775>Cass, you can't wear that.>Why not? You say every outfit doesn't work! This is a velvet tracksuit with crop jacket and halter tee. I saw people wear this on Fashion Catfights.>It's MY velvet tracksuit. Also you're trying to match teal with red.

>>133086162>Fashion Catfights.I would watch that show religiously

>>133086508... I can almost picture it now...

>>133086162Tried for a purple Steph last time. Maybe I should give her another go.

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>>133086702At least it got the booba right.

>>133086142This is one of my fav issues from Steph's Batgirl run. I would have loved to see more them together

>>133085116It did, but the perception remained, and even while the show was running it the comics had shifted. Its also why the oneil/adams era shied away from the villains used in the 60s show sans the reworked joker.>>133085101No? It didnt. It was not an elseworld, not ever sold as one. And if anything tdkr kicked elseworlds.>>133085673Cass isnt fashionable. But she makes whatever she's wearing look fashionable.

>>133086859>But she makes whatever she's wearing look fashionable.>>133085673Even if she has to make a few tweaks in the process.

New WIP Comm.>>133087053That's DIY, she was ahead of the curve.

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>>133087083Kek. This is brilliant.

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>>133086162>tracksuitHad to remind me

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AI still needs work with hands. And faces. And parsing things in general. But that's not a bad outfit.

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>>133087083You should commission "Who give the best head" meme but have the all three Batgirls getting eaten by their men

>>133087828Probably not something Steph would wear. But a guy can dream.

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>>133087190I think its pretty effective at that.>>133087837Damm now i need to do that.Tho being honest Cass would probably be getting the worst, Kon talks too much for that.

>>133087053>>133087083Cass is a fashionable as the people she steals her clothes from.

>>133087919But what happens when her clothes are those bruce/alfred leave for her?

>>133087848The girls need to have more adventures where they are contrived to dress in slutwear.


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>>133088176why are these things so bad at eyes

>>133088208Something something window into the soul something.

>>133088208The AI models were trained on 512x512 image spaces. Faces lose a lot of resolution at that size. Also, I'm guessing eyelashes might be throwing it off since it wouldn't be trained on images with high enough resolution to properly parse them.

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>>133088041>Okay Babs, we're off for our undercover night! Catch you later!>See you la- hold it! Stop right were you are!>What's the matter?>What's the ma- Look at yourselves! Where are you going dressed like THAT!>We're investigating a human trafficking ring. >And you have to do it with your butt cheeks hanging out?>First of all, these are YOUR shorts. Second of all, lives are at stake, Babs! >Okay, okay. Just, be careful. And don't tell Bruce about this. >An hour and a half later, the girls run into Catwoman. >An adventure after that, and over coffee she tells them about the time Babs chased her into the Gotham Hedonist Club.

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>>133088497>tells them aboutmore like>shows them the footage

>>133088497I once tried to write a humorous piece about Cass having to go undercover in the Gotham Hedonist Club, but quickly realized that between her abilities and her psychology that place would be hell for her.

>>133088810I can see how she'd probably be overwhelmed. Especially with how tightly packed it's depicted as being. Although, it has been a few years since Babs' last visit. Place has probably changed a bit.

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>>133088840Hell for Cass.

>>133088840I figured the easiest thing would be to rework it as a serious psychosexual thing.

>>133088840>>133088896>>133089085>I figured the easiest thing would be to rework it as a serious psychosexual thing.I was actually working on a story on this theme but I never finished it.

>>133089140Dew it.

>>133088007Alfred has impeccable taste.

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>>133089386Someone has to not actually help her out.

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>>133089386That look of trauma lol

>>133089653Oh one of mine, nice.>>133089708No father wants to hear that.

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>>133074794>Cass becoming less autistic and chill young adult is an improvement because it makes her more relatable and natural for progression >quips like everyone elseSure bro

An upcoming issue for the Batgirls series has the Mad Hatter as the antagonist. Steph is going to get hypnotised again, isn't she? It seems to be a recurring theme in this run.

>>133089833To be fair, Babs got mind-whammied too. But Steph does fit the Alice theme better.

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Not a bad AI Babs. Now if only she faced front and was braless...

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>>133088896Should Cass have more plots involving social situations? Her body reading would be a boon, but she still has to navigate how she's perceived too

>>133090300It's more beneficial in smaller social situations, in larger ones she's constantly being bombarded by information that she has to filter out. Also to consider is that she's not psychic so what her hyperobservation picks up is a generality and lacking in context. She can tell you're lying, but not why you're lying or what you're lying about.

>>133090203Love her hair in this one..