Sonic Forces

Austin Williams
Austin Williams

The official Sonic channel uploaded some new gameplay footage of Forces. Looks like some levels are gonna have you playing as both Modern Sonic and Donut Steele a la Heroes. Not gonna lie, that's a big fucking red flag for me. At least it's only gonna be for a few levels, I guess.

Other urls found in this thread:

info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_2_(16-bit)_manuals
youtu.be/djeBilaus7M?t=568
segaretro.org/Yoshihisa_Hashimoto
2hu-ch.org/t/d4dde842e8b60a04ed9aed451391200950c0a600/

Jeremiah Ross
Jeremiah Ross

They also uploaded the new Metal Sonic boss theme, which is a remix of the US version of Stardust Speedway Bad Future for once.

Have to admit, the soundtrack seems very "meh" this time around. I'm not a huge fan of the screeching electronic instruments, or the faux-retro thing they've got going on. It's better than when they tried it in Sonic 4, but it's shaping up to be one of the main series's weaker soundtracks.

Adrian Sanchez
Adrian Sanchez

Even the edgelord has a weaker theme than Shadow's ost.

Sebastian Morris
Sebastian Morris

Why can't they just give us a full game with Unleashed tier modern Sonic stages and nothing else? Why do they keep throwing in gimmicky shit that no one wants? They finally perfected the 3D Sonic formula after over a decade of trying yet they never commit to a full game with that style of gameplay. It's so frustrating.

Logan Russell
Logan Russell

My own theory is that Sonic Team is so absolutely terrified of the series getting too samey, that they have to slap some gimmick or alternate gameplay style on the main games out of fear that people will get sick of them and stop playing. But I guess that's just the eventual fate of all long-running series. Even the 3D Mario games since Sunshine not including 3D Land and World have had some kind of gimmick that differentiates them from Super Mario 64.

Colton Russell
Colton Russell

US theme
YES
YES

Henry Hall
Henry Hall

The real question is are we going to have a Chao World mini game?
I'm not buying this unless we get Chaos.

Anthony Thomas
Anthony Thomas

Looks like shit, I wish Sonic would die off already.

Ryan Hill
Ryan Hill

No

Justin Murphy
Justin Murphy

You know what annoys me most about this? The fact that somehow sonic's partner is as fast as he is. Why do they feel the need to undermine the very point of their mascot? Ah well: 3D sonic games really ain't my bag. Sonic Mania is what I care about…five long days to go.

Josiah Price
Josiah Price

implying Boost to Win Modern Sonic gameplay is better than actual platforming Adventure-era Sonic gameplay.

Though I agree that they should drop "Classic Sonic" and let that be its own series of games, like Mania. And the OC gameplay just seems like Modern Sonic with gimmicks, which I guess is okay, that's how alt characters should be done, as alt-sonics with gimmicks, but since it's Modern Sonic, I don't care. The third character should have been Adventure Sonic.

Tails was as fast as Sonic and he was introduced in Sonic 2. Metal Sonic is as fast as Sonic and he's in CD, which was also made as a direct sequel to Sonic 1, basically an alternate Sonic 2. SegaSonic was the arcade cash in made right after Sonic 1, and it had Mighty and Ray both as fast as Sonic. I'm pretty sure Knuckles runs just as fast as Sonic & Tails, too. And of course there's Shadow, who is also as fast as Sonic. And don't forget that Eggman manages to outrun Sonic at the end of Sonic 2.

Cameron Bennett
Cameron Bennett

SPEAKING OF SONIC
guess what still is getting worked on and just got an update

Isaac Hernandez
Isaac Hernandez

I'm not a huge fan of the screeching electronic instruments, or the faux-retro thing they've got going on.
This was a huge issue with the music in Generations. The "Classic" versions of 3D-era songs all sounded more modern than the "Modern" versions, because they made them all modern techno shit. It would have been better if they actually tried to make them sound like they were coming out of a Genesis. Would have been cool to hear a Genesis version of City Escape.

Nolan Brooks
Nolan Brooks

I don't know?

Juan Peterson
Juan Peterson

People not only actually like this, but compare it favorably to the generations remix and even the original
kill me
why did mania have to use the JP version

Adam Adams
Adam Adams

Wow. This is not that good. It just sounds like a generic fan remix, even less so than that. It sounds like a WIP.
Kenichi Tokoi dissapointed me, should have gotten Cash Cash, Falk, Fumie Kumatani, James Landino or Death Grips to mix it.

Liam King
Liam King

Metal Sonic is as fast as Sonic and he's in CD
Metal Sonic is supposed to be a rival for Sonic
His entire character design emphasizes going fast, even more than Sonic's
The only reason it might not seem that way is because a literal retard designed all of CD's boss fights so now he's stuck with those generic electric powers being a major defining trait forever

Joseph Bell
Joseph Bell

?

Samuel Morris
Samuel Morris

WAIT A MINUTE. THAT PYRAMID.
Holy shit. Holy fucking shit. My theory was true.

Ryder Hughes
Ryder Hughes

Of course he's a rival for Sonic. My point is that there are a ton of characters who are supposed to rival Sonic's speed. Apparently this OC is one more of them. But frankly, it's just a drop in the bucket at this point.

The circle and line are features the pyramid shares with the Death Egg (and of course the Death Star it parodies). Perhaps it's a reference.

Owen Barnes
Owen Barnes

Let's see soon! Here is gameplay for people who don't want to click embedded links

Nolan Howard
Nolan Howard

I'm all for the novelty of creating Original the Character… but I gotta say, this game looks like it plays itself.

Isaac Green
Isaac Green

All graphics, no gameplay. I'll pass

Jason Nelson
Jason Nelson

mfw Sonic Mania will inevitably beat this dull garbage the fuck out in reviews (and most likely sales)
mfw you will live to see modern Sonic die

Alexander Green
Alexander Green

Mega Man 9 didn't manage to keep him alive, why would Mania be any different?

Aiden Howard
Aiden Howard

I disagree with any of those characters being as fast as sonic. I'm not even sure tails is as fast as sonic: I never play as him though.

Cooper Long
Cooper Long

Give it a pirate, user.
And It doesn't even have graphics going for it

Henry Nelson
Henry Nelson

Because loads of people are buying it and loving it. Also, he's a bigger character to begin with, and has had nothing but disappointing games for over two decades. Also, he's a company's mascot.

Ryder Bailey
Ryder Bailey

It does, and you can't forget this.
THE AUTISTIC DEVS STRICTLY SAID YOU CAN'T MAKE YOUR CHARACTER LOOK COOLER THAN SONIC, WHICH DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF AN OC. IT HINDERS FULL, UNLIMITED CREATIVE FREEDOM AND STUMPS YOU WITH A LESS THAN PLEASANT CHARACTER.
Seriously, sonic doesn't even look cool anymore, why you wouldn't get fans to go full autist to the point of being able to MOLD your model and give it personalized voice clips and textured is beyond me.
It could have been a DIY Chao garden, but with action elements.
Way to fuck it all up, succnic team.

Cooper Sanders
Cooper Sanders

My first sonic game was SA2, but I agree. Classic Sonic is way more memorable than modern sonic, and it has less autism than the one now, and if they kept him around and fixed their corporate management. Then SEGA might have still been alive today as a hardware manufacturer, making Nintendo compete with them, thus improving quality overall and saving the industry out of rivalry.
Oh well. 90's are dead.

Isaac Russell
Isaac Russell

Since all I play are Gamecube and PS2 games that looks visually impressive to me idk

Ryder Price
Ryder Price

That's Modern Sonic for you. Casuals can't handle the idea of actually having to get good at platforming in order to earn your speed, so you just hold a button and the game goes fast for you. Because Gotta Go Fast, right? That's what 4kids said, and we all know they understand and respect the source material so well.

I disagree with any of those characters being as fast as sonic. I'm not even sure tails is as fast as sonic: I never play as him though.
Tails, Metal Sonic, and Shadow are, story-wise, as fast as Sonic. In some of the 3D games, most notably '06, they are slower, but Tails is as fast as Sonic in every 2D game and Shadow is as fast in every game but '06. Knuckles I don't think is story-wise said to be as fast as Sonic, but I'm pretty sure he is in the actual Sonic & Knuckles gameplay.

Dylan Butler
Dylan Butler

That makes sense. It's funny, because this looks worse than unleashed, which is now a DECADE old. I'm blaming the art direction.

Isaiah Perez
Isaiah Perez

Knuckles is also faster in SA2, See; Meteor Herd.

Cooper Garcia
Cooper Garcia

Because people outside the internet care about Sonic. Mega Man is nowhere near as popular as Sonic.

Jayden Wood
Jayden Wood

Is Jontron semitic?

Evan Carter
Evan Carter

He's an honorary aryan.

Chase Wilson
Chase Wilson

Ir-aryan

Caleb Cox
Caleb Cox

I recall seeing that before but not the name, what's it called again?

Landon Long
Landon Long

Tails ain't as fast as sonic, story-wise. Not sure about shitshow the cuckhog: but I'm fairly sure whatever speed he has is down to some sort of artificial bullshit. All of the characters post-Knuckles are terrible anyway: and so are the games they're in.
90's are dead.
But they're clearly being revived as far as pop culture's concerned. Nostalgia's a hell of a thing. Sega killed themselves as a hardware company with terrible business decisions. The only good one they ever made back in the day (and it was a fantastic one, to be fair) was creating sonic in the first place and bundling sonic 1 (and later 2) with the megadrive. The only good business decision they've made since was commissioning sonic mania. Knowing them, they'll see its success as a statement of collective irony, and a plea for yet more shitty modern sonic games - and for the classic series to be physically destroyed (as in every copy of every game wiped from existence).

Levi Powell
Levi Powell

project x love potion disaster

Jaxon Lewis
Jaxon Lewis

Mega Man doesn't have an army of autistic furries keeping the series alive.

Henry White
Henry White

My point is that there are a ton of characters who are supposed to rival Sonic's speed.
There are literally two characters that are supposed to rival sonic's speed (in terms of brand narrative): metal sonic and shadow the paypig.

Luis Young
Luis Young

Your "actual platforming" is composed of automation and bad controls.

Eli Cooper
Eli Cooper

Tails ain't as fast as sonic, story-wise. Not sure about shitshow the cuckhog: but I'm fairly sure whatever speed he has is down to some sort of artificial bullshit. All of the characters post-Knuckles are terrible anyway: and so are the games they're in.
The entire point of Tails and Shadow is that they're as fast as Sonic. Tails gets to be Sonic's sidekick because he is the only one who can keep up with him, by using his tails as propellers. The entire point of Shadow is that he is so equal to Sonic that they argue over which one is a copy. Did you even play Sonic Adventure 2?

And Tails.

And Eggman outruns Sonic at the end of Sonic 2. But okay, let's say that doesn't count. It's funny to bring up though.

Get good. Sorry I appreciate not having to fight the game to be able to go in any direction other than forward.

Dominic Gray
Dominic Gray

Yeah, tbh I don't understand how people defend the adventure games as if they're wildly different from the newer ones. They always seemed automated to me. If sonic could work in 3D, sonic team clearly aren't the ones to make it happen.

I think what a lot of newer fans fail to realise is that the mediocre (at best) modern games, are being compared with the exceptional games that made the brand they're leeching off. It's simply crushingly disappointing to see a much-loved character from a much-loved series, being turned into a cringey arsehole in some of the blandest games about, which are little more than fodder for a furfag's wank-bank.

Robert James
Robert James

Extended gameplay of the stage, I don't know why they keep only uploading 30 second clips.

Robert Nelson
Robert Nelson

Yeah, tbh I don't understand how people defend the adventure games as if they're wildly different from the newer ones. They always seemed automated to me. If sonic could work in 3D, sonic team clearly aren't the ones to make it happen.
You could actually go in any direction you wanted. The only parts that had automation were loops. Which isn't ideal, but isn't nearly the same as what Modern Sonic does. You had to actually get good to go fast, instead of just pressing Boost.
"But muh just hold forward."
Not at all the same since you actually had to still deal with enemies and not just Boost right through them. Not to mention actually turn, and not just auto-turn with the curve of the track. You had to actually aim and dodge. Oh sure, a lot of Modern Sonic is dodging, by sidestepping in what is basically a glorified QTE. The level design in the older 3D games also helped, especially in Adventure 2. If you say Adventure 1 has more automated level design, I can understand where you're coming from, but at least the basic movement style allowed for levels that weren't like that. While Modern Sonic is made specifically for it.

Jordan Edwards
Jordan Edwards

Tails is as fast in the megadrive games to make them fun. In terms of the brand, I find it highly doubtful that he has ever been intended to be a match for sonic's speed (because that would cuck sonic). Also, it's only in the megadrive games that he is as fast: and in every cartoon or comic ever made, he's significantly slower (hence the 'I'M WAAAAAIIIITIIIING' catchphrase).

I still find it annoying that they make any characters as fast as sonic, even for gameplay purposes. He should always have an edge in terms of speed.

Noah Watson
Noah Watson

Fair points, I guess: although the physics weren't great. I'd still refer you to my second statement. Also, the fucking filler in all 3d sonics…..sweet jesus - I JUST WANT TO PLAY AS FUCKING SONIC.

Jaxon Torres
Jaxon Torres

info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_2_(16-bit)_manuals

Miles "Tails" Prower, the fox, can't sit still when Sonic's around. Ever since Miles was a baby fox, he's dreamed of being like Sonic. He loves to run after Sonic, waving his two tails behind him, trying to keep up with his hero!

Mostly, Sonic lets him trail along. But sometimes, just to show off, Sonic explodes in a burst of super speed and leaves him behind. But Miles doesn't give up. He whirls his tails like a helicopter rotor and takes off flying until he catches up!

All the animals call Miles by his nickname, "Tails", because of his two special tails. And one day they saw an astonishing feat…

They were all together in the forest, watching Sonic perform. Sonic would run, spin and jump in his Super Spin Attack. Then "Tails" would whirl like a turbo engine and blast off in his Super Dash Attack. What a showoff!

Suddenly, "Tails" just couldn't help himself. He took a running start, curled up his tails, and - whoosh - he was spinning like Sonic!

Tails can run nearly as fast as Sonic, and by using his tails or doing a Super Spindash, he can keep up even when Sonic tries to outrun him.

Bentley Adams
Bentley Adams

Literally who wants to play a sonic game with a fucking flamethrower???? What the hell is wrong with the devs?

Xavier Harris
Xavier Harris

I personally like the other playstyles to various degrees, but I agree that Sonic's was the best, and I wish they would just make an entire game of it.

I agree with your second point that the modern games are largely mediocre. But I fucking love Sonic Adventure 1 and 2.

Michael Davis
Michael Davis

Tbf this has all been retconned, now that tails is a slow fucker who just makes mechs (for some reason). Also, they're clearly just explaining away a gameplay mechanic - when literally every other bit of media has sonic's speed front and centre. Knuckles isn't even meant to be at all fast these days, is he?

The sonic canon is obviously all to shit (not that this bothers me particularly). I just find it odd and frustrating when they undermine his entire purpose by adding friends and enemies who are just as fast (and have an extra gimmick).

Nicholas Harris
Nicholas Harris

<a la Heroes
Whoa, fucking cool I liked heroes.

Isaac Price
Isaac Price

They are catering to the DeviantArt crowd, although 10 years too late

Henry Bailey
Henry Bailey

Thinking about it, the adventure games definitely were better than the newer ones (they didn't go 2d all the fucking time, for one thing). It's just there was always such a terrible ratio of 'shit' to 'cool'. Then there were the utterly embarrassing story bits. Also, the billions of new faggot characters were always shit to me. Christ: shadow has fucking hover blades! Oh, and sonic had bloody soap shoes in the second one. How gay is that?! And I've never liked the new, edgemeister character design.

I'm just ranting now. If it wasn't already clear, I fucking LOVED sonic as a kid, and I almost took it personally when they basically shat all over my childhood, for about twenty years straight. I'm fairly sure it's down to the faggots at sega that mania isn't entirely new levels (which is obviously what everyone fucking wanted!).

David Smith
David Smith

Is that a crossover with that furry tranny game?

Josiah Wilson
Josiah Wilson

Tbf this has all been retconned, now that tails is a slow fucker who just makes mechs (for some reason).
He was always a mechanic. He fixes the Tornado in Sonic 2 and uses a submarine in a couple of the Game Gear games, not to mention building a spaceship in Sonic the Fighters.

Also, they're clearly just explaining away a gameplay mechanic - when literally every other bit of media has sonic's speed front and centre. Knuckles isn't even meant to be at all fast these days, is he?
A lot of shit is explaining away gameplay mechanics. That's largely what the stories of games are for, when done well. Take the gameplay mechanics and make a good story around them.

The sonic canon is obviously all to shit (not that this bothers me particularly). I just find it odd and frustrating when they undermine his entire purpose by adding friends and enemies who are just as fast (and have an extra gimmick).
To be fair, Sonic's extra gimmick is that he can become a Super Saiyan. Until Mania, Tails couldn't do that without the Super Emeralds. Knuckles could, but he actually is different from Sonic. I don't think he was ever said to be as fast, though he is in gameplay, and he can't jump as high. Shadow and Silver could use them too, but Silver, again, is actually different, and Shadow… well Shadow is better than Sonic, because he has all of Sonic's powers and is also immune to poison and disease. And in his solo game he can throw busses with his bare hands.

Gavin Smith
Gavin Smith

Yeah I knew he was a mechanic, but I don't know why the hell they've turned him into just some mech-riding guy.

shadow is better
This was my point in the beginning: he shouldn't be. In terms of narrative, he sort of isn't because obviously 'our hero' will ways win. Also, isn't he only as fast because of some gay science-y shit (that probably has to do with the way he 'skates' around: which looks like shit btw)?

How hard is it just to stick to the central premise of the fucking franchise: that sonic is the fastest thing alive? How many people want to see the hero being outdone?

David Collins
David Collins

Yeah I knew he was a mechanic, but I don't know why the hell they've turned him into just some mech-riding guy.
He hasn't ridden a mech since Adventure 2, over 15 years ago. Then again, he hasn't been playable in a main series game since '06, over ten years ago. But he is playable in Heroes, Shadow, and '06 (P2 can control the helper characters in Shadow), and doesn't use a mech.

This was my point in the beginning: he shouldn't be. In terms of narrative, he sort of isn't because obviously 'our hero' will ways win.
Yeah it's a bit dumb. I guess Sonic is a better hero just because he has heart or some shit. But Shadow technically has more powers, even though his extra powers are almost never relevant.

Also, isn't he only as fast because of some gay science-y shit (that probably has to do with the way he 'skates' around: which looks like shit btw)?
Shadow exists because of gay science shit. He's an artificial lifeform created by scientists with alien DNA.

How hard is it just to stick to the central premise of the fucking franchise: that sonic is the fastest thing alive? How many people want to see the hero being outdone?
Hard enough that they had two teams working on sequels to the original game, making Sonic 2, and Sonic CD, and both of those games ended up introducing characters who are as fast as Sonic.

Aiden Thomas
Aiden Thomas

Influence of those three games.
Gamma in heroes had a circle shooting attack too.

Brayden Barnes
Brayden Barnes

I can tolerate metal sonic being as fast because he's a robot.
In my mind though, tails and knuckles aren't as fast, and shadow doesn't even exist. This way, I can sleep at night.

Asher Long
Asher Long

The only thing that got me interested is because I heard, from people playing the game, that Sonic controls much better than in Generations, meaning he doesn't make giant awkward turns while platforming and is less stiff. Classic plays much better than in Generations. Not like Mania, but less stiff than Generations. I'm hoping that the reviews will just be complaining how hard it will be and people would finally realize how bullshit game journos are. Though I really hope eventually the Sonic Mania team or some more Sonic fan game devs take over and become the new Sonic Team. That and the eventual unlimited character mods in the PC release. Totally looking forward to play as Ren in City Heights.

Henry Taylor
Henry Taylor

I beg for Classic and Adventure Sonic back for years
make a new proper Classic Sonic, but they skip over Adventure and go right to Heroes and Shadow

Shadow is an artificial creation just like Metal Sonic, just made by a different Robotnik.

Tails is and always has been as fast.

Knuckles was never said to be as fast but the gameplay has him be fast in all the good games.

The Mania team should just keep making new Classic Sonic games, and Sonic Team can keep doing their thing, but stop putting Classic Sonic and other 2D stuff in the games, because the Mania team has that covered.

Chase Long
Chase Long

Something else I'll throw in: the 3D games don't seem to have any memorable music (at least not for any good reasons). One of the main draws of the megadrive titles was the catchy music.

Tyler Powell
Tyler Powell

TAILS IS NOT AS FAST, DAMNIT! That's the one thing the new games have got right. Also Shadow's just plain gay. Terrible design from the off. He only exists for deviantart fetishists.

Gabriel Sanchez
Gabriel Sanchez

(15)
You seem frustrated. If you don't care about 3d sonic, why post in this thread? Sega specifically for autists like you made mania. And for OC loving autists, a game with OC creator.

Wyatt Allen
Wyatt Allen

3D Sonic does not work. I used to have a nostalgia boner for Heroes but go back and play it and the game is fucking awful.

Mania proves the only good way to have Sonic is a 2D game, with no attitude and no gimmicks like ring dash, homing jump, transformations or weapons.

Dylan Thomas
Dylan Thomas

Shadow is a tenrec based on the murals of Super Sonic in Hidden Palace Zone. Sonic is the true prophecized Ultimate Life Form, and Shadow is just as his name implies, his shadow.

But Heroes was always a poor gimmick ruining a formula that actually worked in Adventure 1 and 2, which are actually great games.

Brandon Nelson
Brandon Nelson

Mania team already disbanded

Justin Roberts
Justin Roberts

Knuckles was never said to be as fast but the gameplay has him be fast in all the good games
Concessions made for gameplay are now the characters' actual canon abilities
lol

Christopher Price
Christopher Price

hence the 'I'M WAAAAAIIIITIIIING' catchphrase
None of the american sonic cartoons or comics are canon. None of them. Sonic doesn't like chili dogs. Sonic doesn't say "i am waiting". Robotnik wasn't good guy in the past. Sonic doesn't have catchphrases about jews. Sonic is not fastest thing alive. Eggman doesn't have a mustached mother.

You're a fucking cartoon nostalgic autist. Stay in autist corner.

Brandon Brooks
Brandon Brooks

why post in this thread?
autists like you
You answered your own question, lad.

Jordan Flores
Jordan Flores

Sonic doesn't like chili dogs.

Evan Parker
Evan Parker

Shadow is a tenrec based on the murals of Super Sonic in Hidden Palace Zone. Sonic is the true prophecized Ultimate Life Form, and Shadow is just as his name implies, his shadow.
Did you just make all of that up?

Nicholas Brown
Nicholas Brown

Concessions made for gameplay are now the characters' actual canon abilities
I never said that. Otherwise I would have just said he was plain fast, like Tails, Metal Sonic, and Shadow. I was just saiyan, for the sake of record, that he's been fast in some instances, though it's not black and white. Same with Eggman, but obviously that doesn't count.

After '06 Sega decided to listen to the casuals and just throw out all the stuff Sonic Team had been doing since the very beginning, and pretend that Sonic never had a story, even though it did. They acted like an unfinished game meant everything about the game was inherently terrible. They threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Mostly. But there are hints that imply that a lot of it was intended but presented very subtly. Shadow does by the end of the game admit that Sonic may be the true Ultimate Life Form. Gerald did see the echidna murals and shrines, and used them for his knowledge to build fake shrines and Artificial Chaos.

Dylan Parker
Dylan Parker

LOL! It's funny, because we never getting another 2D sonic game! Mania was the peak, and it didn't even fulfill its full potential!!

Cooper Campbell
Cooper Campbell

I like your theory because you use the same autism sonic team would when in their best.

Wyatt Smith
Wyatt Smith

Source?

Ryan King
Ryan King

Same with Eggman, but obviously that doesn't count.
Why does it not count? He's been fast in some instances, it's not black and white :^))))))))))))))

Angel Myers
Angel Myers

Which is why I mentioned Eggman and Knuckles together in multiple instances in this thread. They are both canonically not as fast, but you know if it wasn't mentioned that Knuckles is fast as fuck in a bunch of games that people actually like, people would bring it up.

Jack Jackson
Jack Jackson

This mean avatar character is not faster than sonic. Avatar is just knuckles/tails of sonic forces.

Colton Davis
Colton Davis

Also if you watch IGN video, you can see that to go extremely fast buddy has to hold hands together with sonic.

Elijah Flores
Elijah Flores

Well we don't know the story of Forces or the avatar character yet. But we'll see.

Jordan Harris
Jordan Harris

Really should create good looking character so it won't look as terrible.

Michael Gutierrez
Michael Gutierrez

Two things
1.Webm that shit please.
2.>hold hands together with sonic
L-l-lewd.

Gavin Adams
Gavin Adams

inb4 some deviantart autist will ship sonic x avatar

Hudson Nguyen
Hudson Nguyen

implying Sonic OCs are capable of looking good

Charles Price
Charles Price

implying that isn't Sega's intention at this point.

Ryan Ramirez
Ryan Ramirez

Thai thing that they do in 3d sonic game where you just run forward along a predetermined path never fucking works, but they keep doing it.

Can't they just hire the sonic utopia team? Now there's a fresh take on 3d sonic that I'd actually want to play

Grayson Bell
Grayson Bell

Free roam is a meme. Tightly designed linear platforming can work very well, but two of the only games that seriously try it are Crash Bandicoot and Adventure-era Sonic.

Brayden Thompson
Brayden Thompson

mario has had excellent free roam platformer games for 20 years
free roam is a meme
Now that's a fucking hot garbage take

Jeremiah Rivera
Jeremiah Rivera

They tried to go away from linear boost gameplay. Nobody liked it.

Hudson Robinson
Hudson Robinson

I thought it was okay, I wouldn't want another game in that style though
I think something like Green Hill Paradise would work better.

Joshua Jones
Joshua Jones

Tech demo uses a testing sandbox for the purpose of showing off mechanics
MAN THIS LEVEL IS SHIT

Mason Sanders
Mason Sanders

i like the music

Justin Martinez
Justin Martinez

Thinking that every game needs to be like that certainly is.

3D World is the best 3D Mario anyway.

Lost World is pretty much just Colors 2. The Run Button is effectively the same as the Boost Button, and the levels are designed the same except sometimes they loop horizontally. Lost World is very much like the rest of the Modern Sonic games.

But that isn't at all what the post you're replying to said.

Jose Green
Jose Green

If they wanted to do Heroes 2- why not just do that?

Pick and choose from a combo of characters that are Speed, "Gadget" or something else.
Then your custom character can fit any of those roles.

Furthermore, have each character react differently to how they use Wisps.
Speed uses them as Colors did (transformation)
Gadgets usually involve manipulating the environment or projectiles.
Power could be different styles of attacks, or Flight lets you do… Something I guess??

To be frank, Gadget could have been tacked onto Flight.

Seems like the "Burst" custom character can pick up any power-up, but only use them until the meter runs out or he finds more neutral wisps while he has the power-up.

Others (lightning, cube) can't pick up other wisp colors, but as long as they have meter they can use it anywhere.

Which would be super interesting- if they didn't have the necessary power-up right next to the thing to use it for.
Looks like you won't need to play as anything except Burst.

Sonic Mania involved autists who studied what made the original games great, and tried to make them better.

Sonic Forces looks like it involves ticking boxes and keeping the lowest common denominator just entertained enough to not bad mouth it online.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Mania does what the industry should and Forces does what it's been doing wrong; but Sega did say whatever does better will affect the future direction of the franchise.
InB4 they just imitate Mania in visual and not in details of mechanics.

Parker Baker
Parker Baker

That's because it was an unfocused mess that took too much inspiration from galaxy too soon

Logan Kelly
Logan Kelly

Sonic Mania involved autists who studied what made the original games great, and tried to make them better.
The problem here is that 3D sonic has never been done right, but sonic team is too afraid to experiment so they just keep doing the same which has resulted to be mediocre but effective.

Michael Foster
Michael Foster

Hire two amateur Unity devs and a concept artist to make an official Sonic game
Yeah, that'll end we'll.

Christian Hall
Christian Hall

Linear platforming requires a consistent camera and responsive controls, both of which are hard to achieve when the game is based around going fast. Sonic Utopis seems to be on the right track since you're still going fast, but not whipping around corners and fucking up the camera.

John Fisher
John Fisher

but not so fast that you're whipping around corners and fucking up the camera*

Camden Perry
Camden Perry

It seems they try to shove into forces as much as possible:

1. Edgy adventure-tier villain
2. Villains from Lost World, Adventure 1, 2 and CD
3. Sonic Generation style of classic sonic
4. Classic sonic being character from Sonic Mania
5. OC creation tool
6. Sonic Heroes style gameplay with buddy
7. Shadow the Hedgehog guns
8. Sonic Colors wisps

But not chao garden or adventure's hubworld.

Jaxson Fisher
Jaxson Fisher

he didn't even go check the size of their team
implying they haven't done the exact thing for mania
Great post

Charles Hernandez
Charles Hernandez

The problem here is that 3D sonic has never been done right,
imblyign

Take Sonic/Shadow Adventure 2 gameplay
do entire game of that
focus on level design to make sure it's still as good or better
boom. Great 3D Sonic game.

You don't need to whip around corners. Crash Bandicoot doesn't, and it works. In fact, 3D Sonic never did whipping around corners either. You generally went on relatively straight paths with curves and branches. This is for both Adventure-era and Modern-era.

Jaxson Sanders
Jaxson Sanders

Speaking of OCs, remember that Bane rabbit? I actually made a banepost comic based on him.

Hudson Mitchell
Hudson Mitchell

But is he better than CIA The Hedgehog?

Andrew Cox
Andrew Cox

I still don't get why people like adventures.
It's janky, it has a terrible story, the level design is barely a first pass and the whole thing feels like it's held together by duct tape

You've got nostalgia glasses son

Wyatt Price
Wyatt Price

What's really horrifying he looks like fucking chopper in that particular screenshot. And i can't unsee it.

Elijah Howard
Elijah Howard

Take Sonic/Shadow Adventure 2 gameplay
Take "boost pads and linear grind rail segments" gameplay
garbage

John Peterson
John Peterson

It's janky,
Get good

it has a terrible story
Adventure 1 concludes a story arc that had been built up since Sonic 1.

the level design is barely a first pass and the whole thing feels like it's held together by duct tape
I'll give you that Adventure 1 is unpolished and its level design is a bit plain, but Adventure 2 does much better with both of these things. Adventure 1 makes up for it in other areas, though. And even though it's unpolished, the glitches don't hinder the game's playability. They just allow you to do shit like get characters into levels they weren't supposed to get into, which is cool.

James Adams
James Adams

Adventure 1 was made in 1998, and then ported multiple times with minimal fixes of bugs. Fucking third crash bandicoot game was made in the same year on ps1.

Adventure 2 (2001) on the other hand has much more polished sonic/shadow levels, developers understand how engine works, there's no collision errors or bad speed sections and you can't judge the quality of both games just by blaming adventure 1's quality on both of them.

Adventure 1 is literally dreamcast launch title.

There's literally nothing wrong with grind rails and boost pads. Both add to gameplay and unlike unleashed/colors boost pads and grind rails, you actually need to control your character to fucking land on them. They made this shit completely automatic in later games.

John Hill
John Hill

I remember having a lot of camera problems on Green Forest and Final rush when I played SA2, particularly on the vines, half pipe running sections, and grind rails. Grind rails in particular were horrible for me since there was always a good chance i'd go too fast while jumping rails and fall in between them.

James Wright
James Wright

implying those were such significant parts of the game
If you think you can improve the level design by removing those things, then do that. I'm sure the level design can be refined further, just like they refined it a bunch between the first game and the second.

Also,
using "linear" as if it's inherently a bad thing
Even the grind rail segments usually involved multiple paths and having to choose which one to take, which involved actually having to time and aim jumps properly. Which, you know, is what platformers are supposed to be about. Modern Sonic is the one that usually just gives you a few rails next two each other and has you avoid obstacles by sidestepping between them. Of course that's what the non-rail 3D segments are too, only without the excuse of rails being why you're sidestepping between three lanes.

Julian Murphy
Julian Murphy

Green Forest and Final rush
Best levels in terms of skill you require to complete them though. We will never see same quality of gameplay in modern sonic.

Grayson Rivera
Grayson Rivera

CIA's a robot.

Camden Edwards
Camden Edwards

Yeah, it's six people doing a fucking tech demo. I keep hearing people say that Sega should hire the Utopia guys to make a new game, and how Utopia looks like the greatest 3D Sonic game ever, but in it's current stare, there's nothing to it but an unpolished and barren open world. Sonic isn't supposed to be that open, there's nothing even attempting to stop Sonic from progressing in that GHZ level. The Mania guys were hired because of they're proven track record, but so far the Utopia guys have done a fucking proof-of-concept that doesn't even look that impressive.

Isaac Watson
Isaac Watson

The vines are effectively loading zones. I don't see how you could fuck them up.

The half pipe has you run straight down a pipe and collect rings and stuff like in the Sonic 2 special stage. I again don't see how you could possibly fuck up the camera there unless maybe you're trying to go back up the pipe or something. Don't think I ever tried that.

The grind rails have you going literally on rails. How could you fuck up the camera there?

Dying on the rails is easy if you don't time and aim correctly when trying to jump to a new one. Timing and aiming your jumps correctly is called platforming. It's what Sonic games used to be about.

Caleb Sanchez
Caleb Sanchez

There's literally nothing wrong with grind rails and boost pads. Both add to gameplay
lol
Boost pads take the fast out of your hands, and rail grinding is a glorified teleport at best and on-rails at worst
They're poor bandaids for shit level design

Levi Flores
Levi Flores

But characters like Rouge, Shadow, and Omega actually work for The Agency.

Eli Gomez
Eli Gomez

*state
*their
Fuck.

Nathaniel White
Nathaniel White

rail grinding is a glorified teleport at best
You sound like you didn't played adventure 2. There was so much precise platforming involving them in that game.
In later sonics rails are just "press a button and you're on another rail". In SA2 you have to land the jump yourself.

Ryan Martinez
Ryan Martinez

On rails would be better than teleport, since at least it's a form of gameplay. Luckily, the rails usually aren't super on rails in that game, since you're always looking for things to jump out at and land on. There are few instances that are like the Modern Sonic rails, where it's a group of them going in a straight line, and you just hop between them to dodge things that are on any one particular rail. The rails there just act the same as the lanes in the non-rail 3D sections of Modern Sonic, where you just sidestep to avoid whatever happens to be in one of the lanes, in glorified QTEs.

Tyler Thomas
Tyler Thomas

The vines were meant to be an example of the camera whipping around like mad. One of the half pipe sections was supposed to have a grind rail near the lip so you rode that to the spring pad, but there were times that it didn't register for me and I just ran off the stage. The grind rails that require you to change between multiple rails get really screwy, especially if they have a curve instead of being a straight line.

Cameron Butler
Cameron Butler

The most important part here the guy called out sonic adventure 2 on having boost pads and rails as main part of the gameplay (>>13287983), where in reality all modern sonics have them, and they are just worse.

William Ramirez
William Ramirez

Scrap that- the characters OP combat powers do not take meter- nor does their abilities. Seems only Burst spends meter.

Also, the start of the stage has them briefly in the (sandy) Green Hill Zone:
youtu.be/djeBilaus7M?t=568
(Sorry for shitty quality & music)

Seems like they're mish-mashing old sonic into it just to get the generations crowd. Otherwise- why have him?

In fact- why not make all the fancy wisp power-ups into shields?
Protects you, grants you a special ability, but if you get hit you lose it (then miss out on easier paths).

Michael Rogers
Michael Rogers

where in reality all modern sonics have them, and they are just worse.
You make it sound like that excuses it

Eli Thomas
Eli Thomas

The vines were meant to be an example of the camera whipping around like mad.
Yeah but you literally don't do anything on them. They're basically cutscenes which I always just figured masked loading zones or something. When you land, the camera is put behind you.

One of the half pipe sections was supposed to have a grind rail near the lip so you rode that to the spring pad, but there were times that it didn't register for me and I just ran off the stage.
You still have to aim. If you're pulling in another direction than the spring when you leave the rail, you'll go in that direction. Having the control to fuck up is a good thing.

The grind rails that require you to change between multiple rails get really screwy, especially if they have a curve instead of being a straight line.
You have to aim. It's trickier than just having to press a button to move to the next one automatically. Once again, more control here is good. You should be allowed to fuck up.

Having a few parts that were used more sparingly and more effectively in the past now being used too much and badly doesn't mean the game they started in was bad. Especially since there was a lot more to that game than the things you mention.

John Cooper
John Cooper

Nah, fuck you. Rails are fun if done right.

Ryder Morales
Ryder Morales

But Ratchet actually has meat to it and feels like a polished product

Joseph Williams
Joseph Williams

2nd pic
There was a Ratchet smartphone game?

Brandon Hernandez
Brandon Hernandez

actually the level is good
though if the side paths weren't outright slower than the near-middle path in the .webm, it'd be even better
I guess it could be fixed with booster pads

and by the way, you can freely wall run, and you can wall run in places where it looks like you aren't supposed to be able to wall run
you can also jump very, very high if you know how to do it, and you CAN get on top of the corkscrew, and THEN run the rest of the length of it to the end and then JUMP off of the backside of the end of the corkscrew
but you'd probably fall off first

Asher King
Asher King

PSP- Size Matters.

Ian Price
Ian Price

Nah, it stole the idea from sonic adventure 2 and its meat is based on it too, just with guns.

Landon Hall
Landon Hall

fall off
i meant run off of the corkscrew; you'd only fall off if you do so deliberately or move in the wrong direction on the upper parts

Jeremiah Phillips
Jeremiah Phillips

That doesn't look like Size Matters. Look to the bottom left, that's clearly meant for a touch screen.

Carson Lopez
Carson Lopez

Thinking that every game needs to be like that certainly is.
3D World is the best 3D Mario anyway.
Every big budget platformer should, exploration is fun and compluments platforming perfectly.
Also you're a fucking retard.

Jackson Brooks
Jackson Brooks

I like how this looks so casual with zero danger and people don't call out Utopia on it. Neither enemies or spikes show any danger. With such open world it would be better to make a hub world, with smaller instanced levels inside of it, like in spyro or same ratchet and clank.

Kevin Hernandez
Kevin Hernandez

So did Adventure 2.

No I'm pretty sure that was the smartphone game, Before the Nexus or something. Tied into Into the Nexus with the pretense of a lead-in story (though barely) and you can transfer raritanium from the mobile game into the main game and use it to buy weapon upgrades, which is very useful, because otherwise you're gonna have to grind quite a bit to get all the upgrades.

Every big budget platformer should, exploration is fun and compluments platforming perfectly.
It does not compliment it perfectly. It's much harder to make tight level design that actually challenges you to platform well when you can just go around all the obstacles. This is why the Bowser levels are the best levels in Mario 64 anyway, and even the regular levels are largely just several linear paths linked with hub-sections.

Brayden Ramirez
Brayden Ramirez

Ratchet & Clank is nothing at all like SA2.

Elijah Peterson
Elijah Peterson

Gee it's almost like it's a level created to showcase how the movement works in a really early alpha for an unfinished product

Chase James
Chase James

It's much harder to make tight level design that actually challenges you to platform well when you can just go around all the obstacles
Yes, and that's why I said big budget titles should always do it, since they're the only ones that have the resources to do it.

the bowser levels are the best levels
random platforms placed in a void are good
Are you trying to bait me

James Ortiz
James Ortiz

Having a few parts that were used more sparingly and more effectively in the past now being used too much and badly doesn't mean the game they started in was bad. Especially since there was a lot more to that game than the things you mention.
That doesn't make them good

Jace Moore
Jace Moore

Can't they just hire the sonic utopia team? Now there's a fresh take on 3d sonic that I'd actually want to play
Can't Sega hire these guys that've created a physics engine for a really early alpha but haven't applied any of it to proper level design? I'm sure they'd create the greatest 3D Sonic game ever!
You're one of the devs, aren't you?

Henry Richardson
Henry Richardson

Yes, and that's why I said big budget titles should always do it, since they're the only ones that have the resources to do it
It has nothing to do with budget, it's all about level design. That's hardly limited by budget.

random platforms placed in a void are good
caring about what kind of background the level has
The platforms are anything but random. They're all placed very deliberately, and are some of the only parts in the game where your platforming skills are truly tested.

Other posts have already explained why they're better than you're implying and better than the equivalent sections in the modern games. However, I'm willing to say that you could do even better level design without them.

Joseph Martinez
Joseph Martinez

It looks fun even without proper level design, which should be the point
The fuck is your problem

Josiah Hall
Josiah Hall

Yes, I'm here shilling for my team to get hired on a vietnamese anime board in the hope that a Sega exec browses too you stupid fuck

The physics and the movement in Utopia are more fun than anything that's been in a 3D sonic game since it made the jump. Sonic Team is completely clueless, these niggers could do a better job.

It has nothing to do with budget, it's all about level design. That's hardly limited by budget.
It's almost as if a big budget allows you to hire people that know what they're doing or more manpower to perfect it
Did you know that? I don't think you did

Parker Harris
Parker Harris

Stop liking what I don't like, eeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

Nathan Harris
Nathan Harris

It's almost as if a big budget allows you to hire people that know what they're doing or more manpower to perfect it
Did you know that? I don't think you did
Doesn't matter if it's conceptually fucked. If you have an open world, you can inherently just walk around a large portion of the obstacles. Even "platform" games that pretend to have open worlds end up having hub-sections that branch off into linear sections where the actual platforming takes place. But then the platforming is still sacrificed and given less focus. For this reason we get idiots saying things like Banjo and Conker are platformers, when there's practically no platforming in them. Open worlds work for collectathons, but those are different from platformers, and Sonic should say a platformer, not a collectathon.

Jaxson Thompson
Jaxson Thompson

It looks fun even without proper level design, which should be the point
Maybe I actually like my games with tightly designed challenges instead of free-roaming sandboxes.
The fuck is your problem
My problem is that the Utopia Defense Force here is going on about how incredible this tech demo is, and how they can totally blow Sonic Team out of the water, when they've done absolutely nothing to prove their worth other than creating an admittedly pretty cool physics engine.

Sonic Team is completely clueless, these niggers could do a better job.
I'll start singing these niggers' praises when I actually see them doing something with their engine that actually plays like Genesis Sonic in 3D, which it absolutely does not right now.

It's almost as if a big budget allows you to hire people that know what they're doing or more manpower to perfect it
Pic related.

Ian Reed
Ian Reed

Have you ever played a Mario game?
The fuck are you on about nigger

I'm going to use start citizen as a metaphor so I can prove how wrong you are :^)))))))))
Absolutely retarded

Carson Rogers
Carson Rogers

Have you ever played a Mario game?
Yes. The 3D ones began by pretending to have open worlds, but all the actual good parts were linear parts that were thus able to have actual platforming. By the time of Galaxy, the pretense of freely roaming was pretty much gone, because the games since are all very linear. So much so that it was practically the selling point of the last two 3D games (and the latest one is the best one. Yeah I'll repeat it).

Nathan Morales
Nathan Morales

But what's already there already blows every modern sonic game out of the water from a gameplay perspective
I don't know what you're complaining about

Sebastian Morris
Sebastian Morris

"Dr. Eggman, I'm Knuckles. Unlike Sonic I don't chuckle."

Michael Hughes
Michael Hughes

That's because both Galaxy and the 3D games are not open world and never pretended yo be you autistic fuck.

Sunshine and 64, the actually open world ones, are not linear.

David Ortiz
David Ortiz

it IS fun even without proper level design, though theres only so much of it with one level
too bad you can't run on the ceiling
also, see the rocks in the youtube video?
you can do HUGE jumps off of even the curved parts of those rocks

Connor Reed
Connor Reed

Have you ever played a Mario game?
The fuck are you on about nigger
What the fuck are you on about? You ever play Super Mario 64? In the levels that don't focus on strict platforming, you can easily ignore the enemies by just walking around them, like the bombs in Bob-Om Battlefield.

Absolutely retarded
Okay, then use Mighty Number 9, or maybe FF15. It doesn't fucking matter, the point is that you can throw as much money at a game as you want, but if the level design sucks, the level design still fucking sucks.

from a gameplay perspective
What gameplay? You mean the running and jumping around without any challenges to overcome?

That's because both Galaxy and the 3D games are not open world and never pretended yo be you autistic fuck.
Sunshine and 64, the actually open world ones, are not linear.
What are you even trying to argue at this point?

Evan King
Evan King

That's because both Galaxy and the 3D games are not open world and never pretended yo be you autistic fuck.
That's literally what I said, you mong.

Sunshine and 64, the actually open world ones, are not linear.
They have free roam parts, but also a lot of linear parts. Most levels basically have hub-areas with the pretense of free roam that then branch off into linear areas where actual platforming is done. And the best levels are all straight linear ones anyway. Especially in Sunshine, with the Secret Levels.

Brody Johnson
Brody Johnson

What is your point then?

these games that were designed specifically to be different from the old open world ones are linear
that proves my point
??????
Where are you going with this?

Also just because some parts of a level are more linear than others doesn't mean the level design still isn't open ended or oriented to open world.
It's like saying that Dark Souls isn't open world because they're small linear hubs that are connected to a bunch of other small linear hubs.
That's not how it works, that's not the definition of open world.

Hudson Sullivan
Hudson Sullivan

Where are you going with this?
They saw what were the best parts of the first 3D Mario and emphasized it more and more over time, until it took over, because freeroam in a platformer is overrated.

Also just because some parts of a level are more linear than others doesn't mean the level design still isn't open ended or oriented to open world.
The point is that the linear parts are the parts that are actually worthwhile. You need linearity to do proper platforming. Free roam is unnecessary.

Now don't get me wrong, I like it as well. I like Banjo and Conker, I like Mario 64, I like the Adventure Fields and Town Stages in Sonic. But if we're trying to get to the core of what makes the games good, and remove the unnecessary stuff, then we can do away with the free roaming and focus on the platforming, which is in linear paths.

Kayden Parker
Kayden Parker

Sonic is not about linear platforming, it's always been about momentum-based physics, platforming, and exploration in equal measure
I bet you like marble and labyrinth zone you faggot

Easton Campbell
Easton Campbell

But Free Roam isn't unnecessary, it adds to people's interest of exploration, it makes it so that the levels aren't holding the player's hand all the way through.

The best example of this is 64 where it doesn't even tell you what to do most times, all you have to go on is the title of the current level, and you're forced to know your way around this non-linear level to actually know where the collectible is.
Open world hubs also add the possibility to have hidden collectibles, like red coins, which are an extra challenge for more expert players.

On the other hand you have the linear marios where you're dropped into a level, and you have to get from point A to point B while filling in a checklist of collectibles. Wow how fucking fun.

Open World platformers simply make better games, ESPECIALLY when you consider Mario's movement options which are horribly simplified in all the linear games.

Eli Roberts
Eli Roberts

You can explore by taking different linear paths, which Adventure 2 did quite well. Even then, I wouldn't say exploration was always as big a focus as platforming. Sonic CD certainly has more emphasis on exploration than the other games, and I enjoy it for being different like that. Sonic 3 & Knuckles has a bit more of it too (though not nearly to the extent of CD), but Sonic 1 and 2 barely encourage exploration at all. I wouldn't say Sonic 2 suffers due to that, either (even though I do like 3&K better).

But Free Roam isn't unnecessary, it adds to people's interest of exploration, it makes it so that the levels aren't holding the player's hand all the way through.
No, difficult platforming makes it so the levels aren't holding your hand.

Open world hubs also add the possibility to have hidden collectibles, like red coins, which are an extra challenge for more expert players.
But linear games have that shit too. All the 3D Sonic games have it, and they're all linear (discounting the Adventure Fields, but in those cases the Action Stages still have it). Hell, Super Mario DX does a great job with Red Coins, and you're not gonna tell me Super Mario Bros and Lost Levels aren't linear.

Wow how fucking fun.
Hell yeah Super Mario DX is fun, as is pretty much every other Mario game, nearly all of which are very linear. 2D or 3D.

you're forced to know your way around this non-linear level to actually know where the collectible is.
But you're frequently not forced to actually do any significant amount of platforming. Again, Banjo, Conker, and Spyro aren't platformers. (Though Spyro has a bit more platforming than the other two).

which are an extra challenge for more expert players.
implying just walking around looking for shit is as hard as looking for shit while actually doing platforming

Ayden Martin
Ayden Martin

No, difficult platforming makes it so the levels aren't holding your hand.
There is no level in the linear Mario games that doesn't hold the player's hand.
Every single gimmick is presented safely at first making especially sure that the player already knows how to deal with it.It holds the player's hand all the way through, and it has almost no challenge whatsoever.

But linear games have that shit too.
Yes, but their linear, which means you don't really have to ANY exploring to find them.
They're padding, that's all.

But you're frequently not forced to actually do any significant amount of platforming.
But that's a fucking lie. Go play Sunshine and 64 again, you've got no clue what you're talking about.

Thomas Brooks
Thomas Brooks

There is no level in the linear Mario games that doesn't hold the player's hand.
Maybe if you're a pleb that uses the white tanooki suit or whatever that shit was.

it has almost no challenge whatsoever.
Getting 100% in 3D World is the hardest thing in any Mario game, period.

Yes, but their linear, which means you don't really have to ANY exploring to find them.
Linear in our context does not mean literally one dimensional. In fact, we're still talking about 3D games. Even in 2D linear games like the aforementioned Super Mario Bros. DX still make you look pretty hard for those Red Coins. Go try to get them if you want. See how little exploring you need to do. But it's while actually platforming, too.

But that's a fucking lie. Go play Sunshine and 64 again, you've got no clue what you're talking about.
I already said that 64 and Sunshine have a lot of sections which end up just being linear anyway. They need those sections to actually have Mario do any significant amount of platforming.

Christopher Roberts
Christopher Roberts

LIKE SONIC LIKE SONIC LIKE SONIC
LIKE SONIC
STOP HATING SONIC FOR NO FRICKIN REASON
REEE

Sebastian James
Sebastian James

Look if you're saying that open worlds in platformers aren't really open and are just linear bits that you can choose between then what in the actual fuck are you even arguing about you goddamn autist

Jaxon Thompson
Jaxon Thompson

Being able to choose your stage in Megaman doesn't make it open world.

Aiden Mitchell
Aiden Mitchell

durr you use cheats so that's why the levels are so easy
Unless you're actually fucking retarded, which I'm suspecting you are, there is no way you found any level in either Galaxy or 3D hard to complete. They're all piss easy.

Getting 100% in 3D World
This fucking nigger

Landon Sanders
Landon Sanders

I can't even follow this argument any more. What the fuck are you guys talking about?

Camden Phillips
Camden Phillips

At this point we're better off finding out what doth life

Ayden Reed
Ayden Reed

Look if you're saying that open worlds in platformers aren't really open and are just linear bits that you can choose between then what in the actual fuck are you even arguing about you goddamn autist
I'm saying the vast majority of the actual platforming in 64 and Sunshine is done in linear sections linked by hub-sections, which do let you walk around more freely, but pointlessly, since anything worth doing is in the linear sections.

Ok so you never beat 3D World. Got it. It's way harder than any other 3D Mario. Certainly a lot harder than 64, which is probably the easiest.

Jonathan Turner
Jonathan Turner

Xavier: Renegade Angel
What the hell, clips from this show randomly started showing up in my recommendations and I even watched a few episodes. Am I being stalked by Xavier?

Sebastian Morris
Sebastian Morris

But I think that Mario is a penis, yes?

Matthew Ward
Matthew Ward

Got it. It's way harder than any other 3D Mario.
Oh yeah, it's the hardest. I would have such a hard time if I were 5 years old

Alexander Cox
Alexander Cox

Xavier has chosen you to absorb the life knowledge available in the series

Jack Jenkins
Jack Jenkins

Are you seriously arguing that 100%ing 64 is easier than 100%ing 3D World? Am I just being trolled here?

Luke Miller
Luke Miller

They've been doing that since Tails was introduced in Sonic 2.

Jonathan Rivera
Jonathan Rivera

Fuck I meant harder. You know what the fuck I meant. I'm pretty sure I'm just being trolled at this point.

Mason Evans
Mason Evans

SA and it's sequel were not very good, though. Awful actually. There's not much appeal to them outside of the Chao Gardens. Honestly, the only thing I've wanted out of a 3D Sonic is a game like this intro here or, better yet, the OVA.

Brody Rogers
Brody Rogers

It is.
Like, by a huge margin.

They're not even close to being on the same scale. None of the stars in World are even related to hard challenges, all you have to do is know where they are, which is painfully obvious 99% of the time, and then just get them.
It's piss easy.

Grayson Smith
Grayson Smith

None of the stars in World are even related to hard challenges, all you have to do is know where they are, which is painfully obvious 99% of the time, and then just get them.
What? World is fucking linear. Knowing where stars are doesn't even factor in. You go from the start of the level to the flagpole at the end. Good luck doing that for the last whole bunch of levels though.

Zachary Long
Zachary Long

Sunshine might be harder. Otherwise, he's not wrong.

Caleb Moore
Caleb Moore

You mean like Sonic Utopia?

There's not much appeal to them outside of the Chao Gardens

replay sonic adventure 2 on PC
realize that Chao Garden was the only thing keeping me playing the game
drop it instantly

Nicholas Reyes
Nicholas Reyes

You mean the one level that is hard in the game that you unlock after everything else?
The one single level in world that offers any challenge at all?

That's why completing world is hard?
Goddamn nigger

Justin Hernandez
Justin Hernandez

Adventure 1 and 2 have a terrible stories.
I will admit that at times the voice acting and animations have aged poorly Adventure 1 especially. but the stories as a whole are perfectly fine.

Sonic Adventure 1 is a cautionary tale warring that Lusting for power will only bring misfortune.
Sonic Adventure 2 is about a Living weapon learning It's better to save the world and give people a chance at life, Rather then Destroy the world for revenge.

and I mean come on you can't tell me Webm related isn't a great moment.

Samuel Fisher
Samuel Fisher

If that one level is the hardest thing in a Mario game, then it's the hardest Mario game to beat, right?

Jaxson Baker
Jaxson Baker

Up until the first "end" of the game, World has reasonable difficulty that is pretty much on par with 64. After that there are multiple worlds of postgame content that gets hard as fuck.

Go play 64 again. It's not that hard. The hardest thing about it is the fucking camera clicking into place when you try to move it manually, instead of moving smoothly. But I'm not about to say that really makes the game unplayable or anything. It's still very easy.

Nolan Perry
Nolan Perry

Utopia and Green Hill Paradise are the closest things there are to this, but I'm talking about completely open.

Ryder Ward
Ryder Ward

Counting the fact that getting max lives in both Galaxy and World is piss easy, allowing you to repeat the level over and over instanlty, no.
It just takes time and remembering the layout, which has nothing to do with "platforming challenges" as the other dude is alluding.

I think you're remembering the first levels of 64, because that's what everybody remembers.
Play it the whole way through, then come back to me, the later levels have actual challenges that task you with knowing how Mario moves, rather than the "remember what happens next in the level" world becomes when trying to be challenging.

Colton Robinson
Colton Robinson

Counting the fact that getting max lives in both Galaxy and World is piss easy, allowing you to repeat the level over and over instanlty, no.
Lives don't even matter in any of the 3D Marios, or any Mario where you can save. Game Overs are no different from regular deaths.

I think you're remembering the first levels of 64, because that's what everybody remembers.
No, I beat it recently. For the first time. I was a PlayStation kid. Even the end of the game isn't that hard. Not like it's too easy or anything, it has challenge. But it's certainly a lot easier than 3D World.

Ayden Barnes
Ayden Barnes

Both Sonic Adventure games are a cautionary tale about autism and the dangers of trying to make an overly complex story about colorful hedgehogs be taken seriously.

Christopher Clark
Christopher Clark

But no 3D Mario game has any real cost for dying. When you game over in 64, you just reload your save and take a short walk back to where you were. If you were comparing it to oldschool 2D Mario where game over actually meant game over, mabe you'd have a point.

Landon Hernandez
Landon Hernandez

Neither Adventure 1 or 2 are that complex, it was the Shadow game was that made shit way too complicated.

Leo Wood
Leo Wood

We'll have to agree to disagree then, I think World is piss easy

Henry Ramirez
Henry Ramirez

But that story was always there.

In fact, where are all the Japanese Sonic autists? They've had the Adventure story since the beginning. So shouldn't they be more autistic? Where are the Japanese OCs?

I think it's more likely that the western adaptations are responsible for a higher degree of OC-tier autism than the games themselves.

Kevin Hill
Kevin Hill

Don't get me wrong, they're not as ridiculous as Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic '06, but they felt weird for a mascot platformer.

Carson Myers
Carson Myers

I can understand that going from the 2D voiceless Sonic to a 3D voice acted story with a Water God and a giant alien lizard fuzzing with a space station to try and ram it into the earth can be off putting.
But that's the Sonic I had growing up so it's just what i'm used to.

I consider each version of Sonic to be separate entities since they practically are.
Classic, Adventure, Post unleashed/aka modern, and Boom Sonic are all different flavors of story telling and characters.

Everybody has their favorite.
Even if Classic sonic is objectively the best and least flawed.

Kayden King
Kayden King

3d sonic
that's an automatic red flag

Adrian Hughes
Adrian Hughes

The water god was mentioned as early as Sonic 2 though. Then expanded upon a bit in Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles. Just saiyan. Adventure just utilized the Dreamcast's ability to have more fleshed out cutscenes to show the backstories that were already described in the old games' manuals, only now in more detail.

Juan Lee
Juan Lee

The Agency is KGB of the Eggman Empire.

Joshua Cook
Joshua Cook

I hate these 3D Sonic games.

Benjamin Garcia
Benjamin Garcia

This argument pisses me off so much because it reminds me of casuals that won't accept animation as anything other than kiddie shit or immature adult humor.

Ethan Hughes
Ethan Hughes

honestly sa2 3d wasn't bad if anything all sonic games should be a much more polished version of SA2.
but the main reason stages were nice in sa/sa2 was there was reason to go back to them for basically chao farming stuff
sonic unleashes day stages and colors are another example of good 3d sonic.

Owen Howard
Owen Howard

SA2 benefitted immensely from having multiple missions in each level, and a lot of hidden collectables in them. In addition, it had a good ranking system that forced you to really learn not only how to go fast, but how to do combos and tricks. In order to get an A Rank, you had to not only get good, but think about the best way to go through the level to maximize your points. Then this was rewarded with a good bunch of unlockables spaced apart just right, with better rewards for harder challenges, and a really great 100% reward.

There are ranking systems in Modern Sonic, but they aren't as good. There are no worthwhile unlockables to speak of (nothing as good as secret levels, at least). And while they sometimes have other missions, they are not as substantial as in SA2, where getting an A Rank on each mission made you rethink the level again.

I feel like a lot of people who talk badly about that game never really got into the meat of it, which is the Level Select mode, where you do the extra missions and ranks. The Story Mode is essentially a tutorial. New Sonic games should all try to replicate that mission and ranking structure. But then going for points (which are largely but not entirely determined by time) doesn't work nearly as well in Modern Sonic's gameplay style as it did in Adventure Sonic's. The Mission structure should still be kept though.

Asher Rodriguez
Asher Rodriguez

The extra mission really are great,They add so much replayability and are what kept me playing for years. 100% in every Gamecube Sonic was very satisfying for me, I probably would have 100% 06 too if it wasn't for the ungodly long loading times.

Adam Sanders
Adam Sanders

I really loved Sonic Generations but the more I see of Forces, the more I think its going to be shit.

Colton Barnes
Colton Barnes

Metal Harbor also has the best instrumental track in any Sonic game since the Genesis. That level is fantastic.

Nicholas Hughes
Nicholas Hughes

lost world
I loved it

Michael Cox
Michael Cox

Loved Lost world
Loved what about Lost World there isn't a single aspect of that game that was better then mediocre.

William Sullivan
William Sullivan

LOL

Jacob Powell
Jacob Powell

No, it was bad. All the 3D Sonic games are bad, don't let nostalgia blind you.

Juan Gonzalez
Juan Gonzalez

It ain't nostalgia, bro. Even the new ones are still pretty good, just not as good, due to changing the entire formula. The old formula was better.

Adam Brown
Adam Brown

Nostalgia

Mason Smith
Mason Smith

Rose tinted glasses can't exist!!1!1!!1
Not an argument as well, ironically.

Wyatt Morales
Wyatt Morales

Nostalgia makes you blind to the flaws, you autist.

Jeremiah Sanders
Jeremiah Sanders

But i'm not blind to the flaws, and You haven't listed any for me to agree or disagree with.

Jacob Thompson
Jacob Thompson

His point is that he argues nostalgia applies to memories, and not to things you are currently doing. Therefore, replaying a game can dispel nostalgia, since your current experiences are more forefront in your mind than your memories.

Luis Morgan
Luis Morgan

Whoever wrote that is blatantly ignorant on how stupid people can be. By their logic, people who defend bad games purely because they bought them and don't want to admit they wasted money don't exist.

Aaron Turner
Aaron Turner

Sonic was never as big in Japan compared to the adoration he received in the West.

Isaac Taylor
Isaac Taylor

That explains why he got an OVA and anime series many years after the series had already started.

William Fisher
William Fisher

It still clouds peoples judgement. You may be the exception, but you are not the rule.

Jose Fisher
Jose Fisher

It's confirmed, classic sanic is from another dimension and NOT from the past. Thank god.

Thomas Parker
Thomas Parker

What's the point of the ring bukkake? The player got around 300 rings in the first level.

Brody Hernandez
Brody Hernandez

It's irrelevant, though, because Modern Sonic still has all the Classic Sonic events in his past. Unless Generations somehow created an alternate timeline, and Mania takes place there but not in Modern Sonic's past. Mania seems to lead into Forces, and Classic Sonic will probably show up in Forces due to the events of Mania.

Saying Classic Sonic is from another dimension literally makes no difference other than saying that Mania isn't canon to Modern Sonic.

Carson Cooper
Carson Cooper

Or it might be part of Iizuka's two worlds bullshit.

William Perez
William Perez

Strange, I know you'll mention Generations since classic sonic DOES appears there and there's been theories that Infinite is what happens when the Time Eater swallows the Phantom Ruby with Mephiles.
I'm unsure where Sonic Generations even stands in the Roger Craig Smith Era, since it is true that there IS no difference, unless Forces YET AGAIN takes place at a different canon than generations, and generations has had Crisis City, which technically doesn't exist in the sonic world but for some damn reason it is still there. All I know is that it's a direct sequel to Sonic Lost World.

Sonic has more plot hole in him than a Chinese prostitute at an anime convention.

Sebastian Evans
Sebastian Evans

Fuck off Dunkey.

Jack Sanders
Jack Sanders

That's what I'm wondering. Did he say "Fuck Generations, it's not canon" and start fresh from Sonic Colors, or what's the deal here? Nothing from either side has been confirmed hinting that Forces is linked to it, even though Metal Sonic, Chaos and Zavok were there, unless the events from the Craig Smith timeline happened DIFFERENTLY from the games we played here. Sonic is becoming kingdom hearts levels of confusing.

Mason Wood
Mason Wood

Generations had the Time Eater fucking with time, resulting in them being able to reach the '06 alternate timeline. It's not a plothole.

Classic Sonic will clearly be considered the same Classic Sonic from Generations. That game was too popular and is clearly the reason they're reusing the concept. This isn't confusing at all except for Eggman saying he's from another dimension. The most sense I can make of that with the information given is just saying that that actually means alternate timeline and Generations created another timeline. Note that Classic Sonic from Generations was grabbed from Green Hill Zone, meaning literally none of the Sonic games except the first level from Sonic 1 and Generations itself, and of course now Mania, would be canon to him. But we can assume that once he was returned to his own time he continued on in a way very similar to Classic Sonic's own history. Mania certainly seems to imply that pretty much every pre-Adventure Sonic game is canon to that game.

Therefore, the only difference would be that Modern Sonic never experienced Generations and Forces from Classic Sonic's point of view, and Mania never happened for him. Unless it did, and Classic Sonic is from another timeline that's the exact same, since all of these events being in Modern Sonic's past would make no difference.

I can't figure any reason to think Modern Sonic's history isn't a (mostly) straight line from Sonic 1 to now, with the only non-canon games being the ones that are based on TV shows. There's no reason to think Generations, the most successful game in the franchise in forever, and the origin of Classic Sonic as a separate character, would somehow not be canon to this game, which otherwise seems like a direct sequel to it.

Kayden Evans
Kayden Evans

I am so grateful for Sonic Mania, because Sonic Forces demonstrates perfectly how the Sonic Team is incapable of learning. Forces looks like it has the _exact same_ problems with stilted controls, auto-running sections, homing attacks, and position-snapping as the last million 3D Sonic games. Who the fuck thinks any of that is a good gameplay mechanic?

William Scott
William Scott

Casuals who think "GOTTA GO FAST," so they enjoy the fact that the game automatically shoots you forward. Who cares that you're not doing any actual platforming? At least you GO FAST. That's what Classic Sonic was about, right? Not like you had to earn your speed by getting good at a game. Who has time to get good at games, anyway? What are you, some kind of nerd? And not the cool, Big Bang Theory kind. In fact, who has time to even play games? I like e-celebs play them for me, and then they tell me what to think about them. I'll buy the ones they say are good, but I don't need to actually play them. I'll just talk about them as if I have.

David Harris
David Harris

Is Colors worth emulating? Is it playable on a 360 controller?

Nathan Wood
Nathan Wood

Honestly looking at this is disgusting with how bland it looks.
Level begins
can do a twinboost to blast through what's pretty much a straight line
Then you do the multiple double jump spam over the entire level
Oh man enemies shown up but it's a good thing you the OC has this fucking flamethrower laser beam which just kills everything in one hit.
Basic easier then mario 1-1 jumps
it's over
Like what the fuck, how can someone look at this level design and have a shred of hope for this game in their mind.

Noah Lopez
Noah Lopez

Sounds great. If only Forces didn't look like it sucks.

Nathan Barnes
Nathan Barnes

The amount of times I've seen people on Jewtube say they liked going fast in classic Sonic games but sucked at it.

They played a few levels on the low road, while some of us played it over and over to get the fastest route.

Casuals and real gamers all over again.

Since this'll affect which direction the franchise goes (Mania or Forces), most of Sonic Team are really hoping to save their jobs (why teach them how to make games like Mania when you can hire fan-game makers the Mania guys trust for cheaper?)

I expect a lot of advertising, paid scores, and lets plays with people getting back-handers to bump up sales for Forces.

Angel Jackson
Angel Jackson

I'd play it with DS4 mostly due to the 2D sections. Map the trigger buttons for left and right directions and it's worth emulating.

Christian Wright
Christian Wright

fuck!

Adam Martin
Adam Martin

Colors is pretty good

Ryan Sanders
Ryan Sanders

how many years has this been worked on now?

Jose Ortiz
Jose Ortiz

Difference is that Taxman and Stealth were actual programmers, not Unity devs.

Gavin Perez
Gavin Perez

This means classic sonic is from a dimension where sonic 4 never happened
This also means that even if it did happen, the real classic metal sonic is still lying broken in stardust speedway's good future because each timeline is a separate dimension
There's still hope, every bad game in the series now has justification to be retconned and/or rebooted without actually changing everything
Maybe one day we'll get a game that actually features metal sonic as a non-clone major playable character

I don't think they have the resources to pay off (((reviewers ))) to say they like a modern sonic game
Mania got the highest scores a sanic game's gotten in 15 years, they're already dead but they don't realize it yet

James Roberts
James Roberts

I heard the reason why Chao Garden will never happen again is because the programmer for that mode no longer works for Sega and they have no idea how to replicate it.

segaretro.org/Yoshihisa_Hashimoto

To me, chao garden in SA2 is really fucking complex for a side mini-game, and there are lots of interactions that are fairly obscure (invisible chao, egg chao) which could be combined with colors or patterns to make very unique chao. It's extremely disappointing Sonic Team doesn't seem interested in bringing it back, but I understand why they couldn't.

Alexander Price
Alexander Price

You know damn well they could do it if they tried
They just don't want to spend time and money on a side feature that big when they already have a hard enough time making the regular game

Also there was nothing to really do with chaos, just watching them do unbalanced karate tournaments and incredibly long winded races left a lot to be desired

Jose Wright
Jose Wright

There is the breeding aspect of it as well as creating unique looks with animals, but yeah if you don't like pet simulators it's not as interesting. I found it quite fun and a good break from fast paced gameplay.

Bentley Robinson
Bentley Robinson

So here's what I don't understand. Why bring back classic sonic when modern sonic levels are so often 2d and when Mania is out?
this is going to be awful. Other gameplay shows COD style radio comms except somehow even more annoying

Caleb White
Caleb White

Eh, I like pet simulators when there's a reason to simulate the pets other than "aw look how cute it is, I want to collect them all"

Leo Brooks
Leo Brooks

Its not for everybody. But Sonic Team has to know people really want it back if they're still talking about it about a decade later and still have tons of fan sites dedicated to it. They just seem to not have the programmers or interest even though people have been begging for it to come back.

Jason Hill
Jason Hill

I think it's more likely that the western adaptations are responsible for a higher degree of OC-tier autism than the games themselves.

I blame Ken Penders, it's all his fault.

Easton Lewis
Easton Lewis

There is some hope, Forces has the OC creator because a lot of people kept asking for it over the years and Iizuka is very much aware of the demand for the Chao Garden (And SA3). I think the main reason we haven't got either yet is because he isn't confident enough in the team to deliver on those astronomical expectations with their mixed output and because of the bias against the adventure era from gaming journalists.

Cooper Gutierrez
Cooper Gutierrez

I have a better theory

Classic sonic is the real one and Modern Sonic is a figment from the Nintendo/Smash universe

Cameron Rogers
Cameron Rogers

Immediately disproved by the fact Sonic Adventure 2 was a Dreamcast game originally
Step up your denial.

Ryan Cruz
Ryan Cruz

city escape is new donk city :^)

Anthony Smith
Anthony Smith

This is going to be pure autism.

Cameron Morales
Cameron Morales

It's a crying shame, since the weird mutations chao had as they grew could make unique shit.
There's a fancy chart out their showing what they all look like
(Alignment + Highest Stat after evolving, What they look like if they then get another high stat as well. I.e. Hero Power + Flight).

I hope they can replicate it. As a stand-alone game/app that interacts with other games would make a mint.

Tyler Mitchell
Tyler Mitchell

What are you on about m8? Literally every character that gets to run with Sonic can run as fast as Sonic.

Owen Jackson
Owen Jackson

If I was a seven year old kid I'd think Sonic Forces is the hottest shit ever
considering the target market i think they're doing fine

David Richardson
David Richardson

There's actually at least 4 sonics not counting boom one:

Classic Sonic Timeline:
Or "main line sonic"
Sonic 1 -> Gamegear sonic games -> Sonic 2 -> Sonic 3&K -> 3d blast -> Sonic R -> Sonic Adventure (chaos dead) -> Sonic Advance series -> Sonic Adventure 2 -> Shadow the Hedgehog -> Sonic Heroes -> Sonic 06 (end)

Classic Sonic Generations:
Or "sonic that time traveled just once"
Sonic 1 -> Gamegear sonic games -> Sonic 2 -> Sonic Generations

Weird Sonic Mania Timeline (cd events cause distortion, 8 time controlling chaos gem is created):
Sonic CD -> Sonic 1 -> Gamergear sonic games -> Sonic 2 -> Sonic 3&K -> Sonic Mania -> Sonic Forces

Modern Sonic Timeline:
Or "new sonic"
Genesis sonic games -> Sonic Adventure (chaos alive) -> Sonic Adventure 2 happens differently -> Sonic Battle -> Shadow the hedgehog happens differently -> most events of 06 do not count except silver and blaze -> Sonic Rush series -> Sonic Unleashed -> Sonic Colors -> Sonic Generations -> Sonic Lost World -> Sonic Forces

Thomas Thomas
Thomas Thomas

US
Hopefully the JP version will come out later.

Dominic Turner
Dominic Turner

[Citation Needed]

Dominic Stewart
Dominic Stewart

Can someone post that Modern Sonic is Bubsy pic? Is it really coincidence that classic Sonic and Bubsy have a new game?

Asher Hernandez
Asher Hernandez

Your timelines are a little fucked. It's actually much simpler than that (This probably isn't exact either, but it makes more sense than yours - Heroes taking place after Shadow? Have you even played those games?)

Main timeline
Sonic 1 > Tails Adventures > Sonic 2 (8-Bit) > Sonic 2 (16-Bit) > 3 & Knuckles > CD > *Classic Sonic gets transported to White Space* > 3D Blast > Sonic R (Yes, it’s canon) > Sonic 4 > Adventure 1 > Adventure 2 > Advance 1 > Advance 2 > Heroes > Battle > Shadow > Rush > *06 happens, but erases itself from the timeline, it’s featured in Gens because the Time Eater can access alternate timelines* > Secret Rings > Rush Adventure > Unleashed > Black Knight > Colors > Generations > Lost World > Forces

Mania timeline
Sonic 1 > Tails Adventures > Sonic 2 (8-Bit) > Sonic 2 (16-Bit) > 3 & Knuckles > CD > *Classic Sonic doesn’t get transported* > Mania > Forces

The difference probably depends on which ending of CD is used, but I’m not sure which one goes in which timeline.

Daniel Cox
Daniel Cox

CD after 3&K
lol what
Generations doesn't split the timeline, somehow working on back to the future rules, despite that meaning classic sonic and modern sonic meeting and interacting, causing a paradox

Also Sonic 4 uses the bad ending of CD, or at least the one involving the time stones, which would also confirm multiple timelines anyway
And you don't need to list every goddamn sonic game, especially if you're going to leave half of them out

Mason King
Mason King

You skipped out on Sonic Rivals in these timelines and Sonic Colors DS is actually the more canon one than the console version (has mother wisp and burst wisp, which is also in forces). Most people actually think burst wisp is "new" and Silver/Blaze came from nowhere (because of 06' erasure) as further proof nobody actually played those games and that's what causes a lot of confusion.

Jordan Thomas
Jordan Thomas

Forgot to mention that the Rivals games on PSP take place at some point after Rush Adventure. The Riders games are possibly canon (in the future) and Boom is of course a separate universe.

James Rogers
James Rogers

CD after 3&K
lol what
Yeah, it was clarified in the lead up to Sonic 4 Episode II iirc.
Generations doesn't split the timeline, somehow working on back to the future rules, despite that meaning classic sonic and modern sonic meeting and interacting, causing a paradox
You're probably right.I did mention that it isn't a perfect interpretation, Sonic Team have been playing fast & loose with the canon ever since '06 and some placements are a little fuzzy.
I also just realised Knuckles Chaotix isn't there, I could've sworn I put it there; anyway, that probably goes somewhere between after CD - before 4.

Liam Allen
Liam Allen

There could have been an actual summer series like the OVA besides it only being two episodes long, but that fizzled out. Sonic X was also originally planned for 2 seasons, but was renewed for a third, because -surprise surprise-kids overseas liked it.

Henry Thomas
Henry Thomas

*anime

Jonathan Sanders
Jonathan Sanders

Personally, Forces still looks to be not bad, but not good for me so far. I'm having thoughts that it's going to be mediocre.

While I admire the theme and ambient's types that were chosen this time, the whole OC character creator, the Tag Team which finally brings back (along the OC thing itself) some new playable characters than just being always Sonic that play differently from Sonic and other things, I'm also disappointed at some negative things which I didn't like seeing, such as Roger still voicing Sonic (which I hope it gives the liberty to change VA's language), the whole Boost formula (not that I dislike it, but Adventure's formula is better and more fun), the whole Classic Sonic's part, the higher chances of the OC creator being pretty limited, and finally, apparent QTEs. The QTEs being there is the worst offense for 3D Sonic, since we already have less worse and more tolerant, but still bad mechanics that make the games play itself, which is automatization and scripting.

Even though I agree it's bad, for a long time, since SA1, 3D Sonic games always had some sort of way to handhold you. Momentum and physics were turning to be less important as far as we still receive new 3D Sonic games, and this gives us a tip that Sonic Team in general refuses creating an engine that focus on momentum and physics, reflecting the 2D Sonic games. When I have thought on this, I decided nothing could be done and just deal with it, where the scripting is considered a "permament feature" for years by some people and me.

Now, seeing that Forces has QTEs, I'm scared and really afraid now. 3D Sonic was already a mess since its beginning, and now, it has QTEs, which for someone who knows or at least has played all the 3D Sonic games until now, this is a HUGE red flag, even when it's stupid to judge a game before its launch day. I know Unleashed, at the final boss, did have some QTEs moments too, but I thought it was temporary, and that Sonic Team was just experimenting things. I really really really hope the QTEs are atleast minimal and don't make a huge part of the gameplay, because I really see the potential Sonic Forces is having that could be explored.

Although I too prefer the japanese soundtrack, give it a rest. The bad future version of japanese Stardust Speedway has already gotten enough recognitizion and attention.

Nathaniel Perry
Nathaniel Perry

I don't even care about Stardust Speedway.
Bring back Palmtree Panic Bad Future JP.
Wacky Workbench Bad Future JP too, while you're at it.

Gavin Wood
Gavin Wood

I've been arguing for more adult oriented animation on /co/ for years. I'm not against intricate stories, far from it. But I feel something like Sonic doesn't need one and in a way, benefits without one.

Nicholas Young
Nicholas Young

This means classic sonic is from a dimension where sonic 4 never happened
Sonic 4 Episode I came out before Sonic Generations, but Episode II came out after Generations. However, I think it would be unreasonable to say that I and II don't take place together. They're quite linked and part of the same story arc.

We know Mania is canon to Classic Sonic. Mania seems to happen at the very end of the Classic Sonic era, after everything that came out before Adventure or Pocket Adventure. Sonic 4 seems to be the first thing to happen after Sonic & Knuckles.

Metal Sonic is in Mania, but I'm pretty sure the spacetime shenanigans mean that it's Metal Sonic from the time of Sonic CD. So perhaps that's irrelevant.

Really, all Sonic 4 does story wise is explain how Metal Sonic came back for the first time, after Sonic CD. He then appears in nearly every Classic Sonic game after Sonic & Knuckles (granted, this whole set of games isn't very "classic"). There's no reason to disregard Sonic 4.

Mania has spacetime shit going on, but the question is, did it really fuck with the timeline that hard? That game has you visiting so many places in the timeline, I think it's unlikely they'd actually say the events resulted in a different timeline for everything that was different from in the original games. If anything, it would seemingly mean that "Classic Sonic" did not actually experience any of the Classic Sonic games, and Mania is his version of said events. After all, Classic Sonic was pulled from the timeline after only the first level of Sonic 1. If we're saying his timeline is different, it stands to reason that it is very different, and he would then be anything but Classic Sonic, since all the Classic games did not happen in his timeline, at least not as we played them.

Maybe one day we'll get a game that actually features metal sonic as a non-clone major playable character
I don't think he was ever intended to be a "clone." They even took the time to show his revival in Sonic 4. It's weird that Mania had two other robots like him in tubes during his boss battle. It would have been a lot better if those were Robo-Sonic and Mecha Sonic from Sonic 2 and Sonic & Knuckles, since one of them is in a tube like that in Sonic Adventure, and with you fighting the 8-bit Sonic 2 robot Sonic, that would have covered all the Sonic robots at once. Perhaps the two in the tubes were intended to be the ones from Sonic 2 and Sonic & Knuckles and they just fucked or missed that detail.

The macguffin from Mania is called the Phantom Ruby.

You're overcomplicating things far too much. Modern Sonic has every game except the ones based on TV shows in his history, and debatably he doesn't have Mania in his history. All the games are roughly in order, too.

Sonic '06 erases itself and its bad future from history at the end of the game, but they still happened in an alternate timeline. This is largely irrelevant, though, because it's just an alt future.

Generations grabs Classic Sonic from after Green Hill Zone and Tails from after Chemical Plant Zone. Clearly you're not supposed to think about it too hard because that right there is fucked. But if we ignore Tails and take it seriously as implying this created an alt timeline, it means Classic Sonic didn't experience any of the games since he was grabbed from so early in the timeline. This is as opposed to Mania, which seems to happen at the very end of the Classic Sonic era, so it wouldn't cause as many problems.

Sonic 4 has Metal Sonic being revived from Stardust Speedway's bad future, meaning that that's where he and Sonic fought, so the non-100% ending is canon for Sonic CD. There is no time travel shown here, implying that Sonic CD's Futures are only one year in the future, the next time Little Planet appears. Sonic CD's Bad Future is Sonic 4's present.

Jeremiah Reed
Jeremiah Reed

Tails Adventures takes place before Sonic 1. The Chaos Emeralds haven't been moved to South Island yet.

Sonic 4 should be the very next game after Sonic & Knuckles. It shows Metal Sonic being revived, and Metal Sonic is in most of the games after Sonic & Knuckles. Sonic 4 also happens at least one year after CD, so rather than saying that CD takes place between S&K and 4, leaving a year where nothing happens, it makes sense to say CD takes place before 2, and 2 and 3&K take place during the year between CD and 4.

Considering Mania references things like Triple Trouble and Sonic the Fighters, I'm inclined to say pretty much every Classic Sonic game happens in its timeline, if it's a different timeline at all.

To say the Classic Sonic from Generations isn't the same from Mania is absurd, since the one from Mania is clearly the one from Forces, and no way the one from Forces isn't the same one from Generations.

Silver erases himself in '06, but Rivals introduces a new Silver from the new timeline that was created. However, Generations has '06 Silver because of the Time Eater messing with timelines.

Henry Barnes
Henry Barnes

If mania sonic is from another dimension
And that dimension is a timeline during the classic era around 3&K
Then it's at a point where sonic 4 hasn't happened
This is not hard user

I don't think he was ever intended to be a "clone."
Man, you really need to figure out how to use context to determine the meaning of words

Thomas Turner
Thomas Turner

13294490
And that dimension is a timeline during the classic era around 3&K
I don't think it is. Mania has characters like Fang, Bean, and Bark, who are very much from after 3&K. Sure the Phantom Ruby is fucking with time, but it still seems weird to say they came from the future rather than the past. We're clearly supposed to recognize them, so it's weird if Sonic isn't. I think Mania fits much better if placed right at the end of the Classic Sonic era. And even if it was right after Sonic & Knuckles as you claim, it doesn't invalidate Sonic 4 or any other game. Obviously at the end of Forces he will be put back in his right time, like at the end of Generations.

Man, you really need to figure out how to use context to determine the meaning of words
I caught what you meant but was already in full autism mode.

Jeremiah Wood
Jeremiah Wood

Mania has characters like Fang, Bean, and Bark, who are very much from after 3&K
Yes, and clearly that means they were born during the intro to the game they were featured in
You're getting autistic over the canonicity of easter egg character cameos in a game with timebending elements because they make you feel "weird", at some point you need to stop

And it doesn't matter if he's put right back after forces, time fuckery is time fuckery regardless

Colton Hall
Colton Hall

I'm just saying it makes no more sense to say Mania is right after S&K than it does to say it happens after all the Classic Sonic games. By doing that, you're invalidating a huge chunk of Classic Sonic games from "Classic Sonic's" history. That's dumb.

Ethan Foster
Ethan Foster

That doesn't invalidate anything
And sonic 4's not even technically a classic sonic game
Why are you defending this so hard

Brody Morgan
Brody Morgan

Because autism, obviously.

The same logic used to invalidate Sonic 4 would also invalidate all the other Classic Sonic games after 3&K.

Jackson Williams
Jackson Williams

None of the classic sonic games after that even have any serious plot to be retconned
What little is there is stupid shit like eggman making new death eggs and repairing old ones all the time like it's a dead main character from a superhero comic

Kayden Rogers
Kayden Rogers

None of that invalidates my point. You act as if I'm the one complicating things but I'm only explaining why I think placing it at the end makes things much simpler than placing it at the beginning.

Aaron Sullivan
Aaron Sullivan

You're the one who started arguing with me because I said S4 could be retconned
You're the one who said that would also invalidate (read: retcon) the other classic games, which are apparently super important to the sonic lore and cannot be ignored

David Jones
David Jones

They were referenced in the latest game. I see no reason to ignore them. It's more fun to have a richer world.

Aiden Nelson
Aiden Nelson

They can be ignored because they're largely inconsequential and retarded
The plot of 06 did that to itself yet Silver's still been in every other goddamn game since

Wyatt Clark
Wyatt Clark

The Silver in every game except '06 and Generations is the Silver from Rivals, who is a different guy from a different timeline than the one from '06.

Evan Campbell
Evan Campbell

Full autism timeline coming through.

Flicky > Tails Adventure > Sonic 1 (16-bit) > Sonic 1 (8-bit) > SegaSonic the Hedgehog > Sonic CD > Sonic 2 (8-bit) > Sonic Chaos > Sonic 2 (16-bit) > Sonic 3 & Knuckles > Sonic 4 > Sonic Drift > Triple Trouble > Drift 2 > Chaotix > Tails Skypatrol > Sonic Labyrinth > Sonic the Fighters> Sonic 3D Blast > Sonic Blast > Sonic R > Sonic Mania > Sonic Pocket Adventure > Sonic Adventure > Sonic Shuffle > Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Advance > Sonic Advance 2 > Sonic Pinball Party> Sonic Heroes > Shadow the Hedgehog > Sonic Battle > Sonic Advance 3 > Sonic Rush > Sonic Riders > Sonic '06 > Sonic Rivals > Secret Rings > Rush Adventure > Rivals 2 > Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity > Sonic Unleashed > Black Knight > Free Riders > Colors > Generations > Lost World > Forces >>> every other future game > Chronicles

There is an alternate timeline branching off from where Sonic '06 is, but since it erases itself and the only time it is revisited is in Generations, this doesn't really complicate things.

Now, if Classic Sonic in Forces is from an alternate timeline, and not merely Modern Sonic's past, this complicates things a bit, but it makes sense to a degree, since Modern Sonic doesn't seem to remember experiencing Generations from Classic Sonic's point of view. Classic Sonic was grabbed from his time into Generations at the beginning of Sonic 1, so we have no idea how similar or different his timeline is from Modern Sonic's, except Mania and Classic Sonic's POV of Forces happen in it. So basically Mania didn't happen in Modern Sonic's timeline, but everything else is up for grabs. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. But it seems fucking dumb to say it didn't, that Classic Sonic didn't experience the events of a bunch of Classic Sonic games, especially since there's no reason any one would be any more or less likely to happen in his timeline than any other.

Mania of course has him travel through time again, and presumably at the end of Forces he'll go back to when he came from. This would create another opportunity for a diverging timeline, even if Generations didn't (but if it diverged anywhere, it seems like it would have diverged here, since Modern Sonic didn't experience it from Classic Sonic's POV in the past). However, Classic Sonic travels through time a fuckton in Mania, and everything is slightly different than it was before. Does this mean all his experiences of the classic games were different? Did he not experience any of them at all, and Mania is his version of the events? Or maybe it's simpler to say just everything happened except Mania didn't happen to Modern Sonic.

/autism

Adrian Rogers
Adrian Rogers

A convenient excuse
A convenient enough excuse that one might say it could apply to literally any character regardless of context

But then, who am I to question the kojima-esque narrative brilliance of the esteemed gaming classic, Sonic Rivals for the PSP

Parker White
Parker White

A convenient enough excuse that one might say it could apply to literally any character regardless of context
It's made very explicit in Rivals that it is not the same one from '06. He's introduced all over again and the future he comes from is entirely different.

If you want to start complaining about shit not making sense, start talking about Blaze and Eggman Nega. Those fuckers are walking plotholes.

Jacob White
Jacob White

A convenient enough excuse that one might say it could apply to literally any character regardless of context
Oh also it couldn't apply to any character regardless of context because most characters aren't from the future, let alone a future that gets erased and replaced with a new future.

The working theory seems to be that Blaze is from the '06 future and Nega is from the Rivals future. At the end of '06 Blaze seals a fire demon inside herself and is sent to another dimension. So maybe she was adopted by the royal family there or something? And Nega must have traveled from the Rivals future, where he is explicitly from, back in time and also to another dimension, the dimension Blaze lives in, and disguised himself as alt-dimension version of Eggman when really he's an alt-future version. Then later he went back to the future and dropped the pretense.

Jayden Reyes
Jayden Reyes

I'm not complaining about it not making sense, I'm saying that poor cop out of an explanation can apply to anything, including the dumb spinoff games you're defending
God, it's like talking at a brick wall

Jason Mitchell
Jason Mitchell

Oh also it couldn't apply to any character regardless of context because most characters aren't from the future, let alone a future that gets erased and replaced with a new future.
Literally doesn't matter
The future is not the only state of existence that has the concept of time, it doesn't have a monopoly on timelines

Samuel Smith
Samuel Smith

It can't apply to anything though. I didn't just make up the idea of there being alternate futures caused by changing time during '06. It's a key plot point in '06. The entire goal of the game is to change the future. Then you do. Then in the next game, Rivals, Silver appears again, but he's introduced all over again, nobody remembers him, and the future he's from is very different, because it's the new future created after changing the future from '06.

How could that possibly apply to, say, Triple Trouble? None of those other games involve characters from the future, or changing the future.

Aaron Ortiz
Aaron Ortiz

How could it apply to any other character? There is no basis for saying Fang or Ray or any of those obscure characters are from alternate timelines. There is no time travel shit in any of their games. They are never implied to have any sorts of origins that could be changed by Sonic just traveling through time (but not explicitly creating new timelines and thus having characters completely reintroduced) in Sonic CD. It's like you didn't even play the games with Silver in them. Especially since you're saying he's in every game, when he's barely appeared since Rivals, which was like ten years ago, barring his cameo in generations

Adrian Cox
Adrian Cox

Generations had time travel, and that affected the very beginning of the series
But even without that, it would be incredibly easy to retcon any game you want and have the characters from it still appear with no explanation, because there doesn't need to be one, because you vastly overestimate the plots of every single one of those dumbass side games
Bean or Mighty or whoever don't have any fucking elaborate backstories so just saying the games they were in didn't happen doesn't change shit, if you absolutely need to, explaining their presence is as easy as saying "that just happened in another timeline"

William Robinson
William Robinson

if you absolutely need to, explaining their presence is as easy as saying "that just happened in another timeline"
Except that would be retarded if you just made it up. '06 and Rivals make it very clear. '06 Silver's entire goal is to erase his future from existence. He succeeds. The next game features a new Silver with the same appearance and name, also from the future, but a very different future, and he has alternate introductions with the rest of the cast. A new future was created at the end of '06, and here is a new future, with a new version of a guy who was erased. What's hard about this? It's not at all the same as just making it up and saying any random thing is from another timeline.

You clearly never actually played either of these games. Playing just one of them would make it very clear. You're obviously just some Game Grumps watching memester faggot who thinks you know shit about '06 but never actually played it to see for yourself. Try actually playing games before acting like you know shit about them.

Mason Hughes
Mason Hughes

I'm not even fucking arguing about 06
Silver has a cop out explanation for his appearance equal to the DBZ ripoff backstory he was given
Guess how much backstory any of the characters from fighters have that would need to be explained in the event of a retcon
Hint: it's "none"
What the fuck is your problem you gigantic autist

Bentley White
Bentley White

That rabbit doesn't look like Bane. With what he's doing in the pic I think he looks more like an antifa shitbag.

Bentley Gomez
Bentley Gomez

If your so sure Tell me about the rabbit,
Why does he ware the mask?

Logan Wood
Logan Wood

It's not a fucking cop out. It's an alternate timeline version of himself, because his timeline was erased and replaced with an alternate one. Next you're gonna tell me it's a copout that there are two Martys in Back to the Future II. All of this is standard time travel stuff. It wouldn't apply to any of the other characters because their stories don't revolve around time travel. Except Nega or maybe Blaze, but their stories are legitimately fucked.

Kevin Collins
Kevin Collins

It can apply to literally any character because multiple timelines are part of the universe

Hunter Rivera
Hunter Rivera

Made a proper torrent, seed away:
btih:fa3b3ae9d4e139073ac3fd3eb524a0b247de0a69&dn=Project%20X%20Love%20Potion%20Disaster%20v%20Alpha%207.4.zip
2hu-ch.org/t/d4dde842e8b60a04ed9aed451391200950c0a600/

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