What happened to innovation in vidya?

...

They may not be as pozzed, but the level of innovation has dropped drastically.

Fuck me, I forgot how bad Bioshock: Infinite was. It's like everything that you're not supposed to do in an FPS all stuffed into one game.

That's not how greentext works, newfag, and it was ported to consoles over a year after release.

The Jews.

fear was an extremely early 7th gen title and the 360 was notably more powerful than PCs at the time. The only issue was memory but when you don't have OS overheard it's really not a big issue.

Bioshock Infinite is a game developed to look as good as possible with all the resources available on those systems. Fear, despite being pretty neat, looked even at the time, pretty bad compared to games that were even older than it.

It's really obvious that bioshock infinite was going to cut some corners with things like physics.

So you have difficulties expressing your retarded thoughts if you type like a normal person and everyone else is the baboon here?
If the next sentence is totally related to the previous one in context then why the fuck should it be in its own paragraph? So it doesnt strain your shit for brains too much?
No, fuck you OP. You're a goddamn newfag/redditor but it's not just the formatting of your text that reveals it.

To add into this point consider how console games used to be: specific genres that would work well with a controller and limited but standardised hardware (many platformers, racing games etc and few shooters, multiplayer games focussed on local/couch play). FPS games on the console, if they existed at all, would be a distinct 'console fps' with different controls, gameplay styles etc from a PC FPS (think Black). This was because games on both PC and Consoles were sold on gameplay alone and trying to force a PC FPS onto a console generally didn't work. Note even that earlier games like Far Cry, Wargames or even C&C 95 went through some degree of modification to work better on consoles to play better. F.E.A.R. did not and controls somewhat poorly as a result.

Now that games are sold on marketing you can force genres that really don't work well on consoles (competitive PvP shooters, large scale PvP games which require P2P and thus have host advantage) because gameplay isn't so relevant.

There's a clear difference between developed primarily for one platform then ported and being designed to work on both as a true multiplat (rare).

I think that first person shooters were largely a bad thing and gaming never should have pushed such a genre that could be pulled off with such low effort and still sell millions.

Oh fuck, I missed that and the bitching about spacing.
You can also tell he's a newfag because he doesn't know he could just resize the reply box/new thread box…

That's a problem with the current market and isn't linked to one genre anyway (Third Person Shooters are equally as bad). If you took away FPS as a genre then lazy AAA publishers would just push another genre with heavy marketing and the same fags would eat it up. Lazy FPS games are a symptom, not a problem.

It's still there. Really hoping Exanima delivers, fully physics based combat system which is pretty satisfying at the moment, the only downside is when you squash directly into opponents it becomes drunken flailing. The rest of their goals are pretty ambitious too but so far they've delivered a well optimized and polished game even if updates are infrequent.

You mean like ASSFAGGOTS? Or CRAPCUNTS? Or Sportsball? Or phone games? Or MMOs? Or 4X/GSG? Whining about FPS in particular when there are so many significantly more cancerous genres out there is retarded. Get your priorities in order, faggot.

mad cs kiddie detected, calm down son.

this is true, I personally believe firmly that genres are best segregated to specific audiences. The console audience and PC audience is very different, and I'm very displeased that certain groups have tried to force overlap.

No, I have difficulties reading one massive clusterfuck of text or lines upon lines of greentext and decided to follow the rule of efficiency by breaking up my normal text into paragraphs. It's also a courtesy to people to make it easier to read the text.

Shit, I miss 2014 and early 2015 when anons didn't jump on you for trying to make your posts easy on the eyes.

That only affects me when I'm typing, son.

The rise of FPS was kind of inevitable once developers got started on 3D environments and figured out the ease of offering players the chance to shoot a gun from a first-person perspective.

Not an argument you stupid nigger.

Fuck innovation.

They just need a good foundation and improve on that.

this thread made me realise

half life 1 came out 20 years ago.

The thing is you're probably just typing in a small reply window, and what seem like paragraphs are just 2-3 sentences. Try stretching it out a bit and you might actualy split your post into proper paragraphs (usually 5-10 sentences).

pick one and only one.

you won't get to ESEA with those kinds of arguments, back you go.

I can agree with this, but there's a low effort involved in the design of these games that makes it extremely accessible for developers to make. Really even on paper it's so simple. frustum, center point is where your damage goes, and all you need is a 3D space around it.

top lel

...

you do realize that even today 40% of all steam users have CPUs with less cores than the 360 does.

bait

Unironically kill yourself.

…sauce?

You have games that take millions upon millions of budget costs because everyone's jerking off over muh graphics and muh voice actors who need to voice each and every single insiginificant line and muh shitty mocap. With all that in mind piling on top of each other in terms of budget, you have an atomic assload of millions needed to have obnoxious marketing everywhere because faggots don't buy games for games, they buy into the marketing and hype.
With all that in mind some asswipe suit who's only goal is "make more money" is in charge? What do you get? A game that has to sell to as many people as possible in the hopes of making a profit.

Then you have indie games. These are either
AAA is a bust because the whole point is making up your momental budgets because no one higher up had the brilliant idea that maybe spending millions on a super hyped bland as shit game to the millions back+a small profit isn't as good an idea as spend less amount of money on something that would appeal to a smaller but more dedicated audience.

On a different note I'd like to ask if anyone has anything recent of note that they've played they would like to shill recommend or talk about.

store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/cpus/

Formula sells.
normalfags want the same AAA diarrhoea with microtransactions and DLC.
And when someone does innovate, competitors steal it and make it the norm like Titanfall's neat mobility system being reused in all the recent cowahdoodys.
But even Titanfall is practically dead now because all the normalfags would rather play GOTY Muddy Brown Cover-Based Shooter #352.

2 cpus and 4 cpus seem to dominate no?

because more cores = better performance right?
Should've expected this much stupidity from a retard who thinks 360 was stronger than PCs of its time.

FEAR is a top tier shooter but there is nothing innovative about it. Innovation doesn't mean good.

Wait, did titanfall really invent that?

Innovation is risk. Higher budgets = more risk aversion. It doesn't help that jews are now completely and charge and they only care about profits, not the quality or merit. But it's mainly a matter of risk aversion.

First time I saw it was Titanfall.
After that all the cods started using it.
Most definitely other titles have used wallrunning and parkour etc, but not in an area shooter setting.

That's my view though I'm willing to see multiplats of genres that work on both or the aforementioned PS1/PS2/Xbox Hueg tactic of varying some basic gameplay elements between versions. I'd say it also matters more on the console end simply because almost everyone has only one input method (controller) yes, some exceptions exist but that's a niche market and will be sitting a fair distance from the TV while you could easily set up a PC to work however you want. I think a policy of making PC games for PCs and Console games for Consoles then porting the console games in bulk after the generation ends (largely so they can survive near-indefinitely without messing around with emulators/a limited pool of hardware) would work best.

For Half Life specifically you can dislike the new shit it tried (I don't like the unskippable in-engine cutscenes) but it undoubtedly innovated.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you but the Steam hardware survey has some issues, specifically you can opt out and there's no guarantee that opting-out is balanced by type of users (i.e. that the average opt-outer is just the same as the average opt-inner). This is the same issue with drawing conclusions from SteamSpy and private profiles since they just assume the average private profile is the same as a non-private profile. Also cores are not the be all and end all. Still it's generally the case that a console in the first year of release will out-perform the average PC because the average PC is a toaster and (older) consoles were often sold if not at a loss then with the advantage of economies of scale in terms of hardware.

yeah

it absolutely was, even had a top-end GPU with a custom API that shared traits with the yet unreleased dx10 and the most optimized dx9 pipeline ever. Efficiency was the IBM chip wasn't surpassed until intel got to the last few generations of core2.

they do, but 40% of users are using 2 core chips (likely 2c4t, but PC games are notoriously poorly multi-threaded) – there is something important there, PC games are notoriously multi-threaded, right? But console games have been multi-threaded for 3+cores since 2005. They started focusing on 8 cores in 2013. Intel and AMD need to make a conscious effort to get these 2 core chips out of consumers hands. I think the biggest thing holding back PC gaming is the majority of PC gamers.

I understand, but this is the best metric we have to go by, and I think you need to understand that this is the metric developers have to go by as well. It's the best measurement we have to determine who is using these services.

I will sum this up. Game designers back then have solid background in programming, networking, classical art, performance art, literature, music, and so on. Game designers today are fresh vainglorious delusional little retards shat straight from the 'Game Design Major's anus.

This twisted game needs to be reset. Seven nukes for the seven AAA companies.

college game design courses are definitely a problem of the western industry. What excites me about the Japanese industry is you can see what the newbies and amateurs are doing at comiket and on twitter - and they are getting noticed and picked up by bigger companies as time goes on.

this is as bad as the people who thought ps3 was a super computer.
it was a usable machine at release, it's "time" extends for near a decade after that release date.

I don't believe this shit, the 360 was shit-tier even when it comes out.

It was a low-tier medium at best.

Industrialization is never good for the artistic (not saying that video games are art) creativity. Just take a look at hollywood, best seller books, and RIAA. Man, they keep shitting out shit.

And since video game isn't an art form, even the indie devs and consumers would have shit taste. In film and music industry, we still occasionally find some good stuff from the likes of Alexander Sokurov. People like him are those who constantly seek for truth, beauty is the yearning of truth itself. However, video game has no such vision that really defines and standardizes art. Video games are not made for beauty, but rather, they were made for fun.

This is simply video game's destiny as the ultimate pleb's "art" form. No one can take video games seriously for it has no strong and transcendental foundation to begin with. As written by Hermann Hesse: "What you call passion is not spiritual force, but friction between the soul and the outside world. Where passion dominates, that does not signify the presence of greater desire and ambition, but rather the misdirection of these qualities toward an isolated and false goal, with a consequent tension and sultriness in the atmosphere." Passion in video games is one of these ambitions toward an isolated and false goal.

Unlike true art forms, video game will ultimately, inevitably deteriorate for it has no yearning of life.

All japanese games have either devil may cry combat for the fast paced games or monster hunter combat for the slower paced games. They're even more desolate of creativity than the west.

anime is inherently pozzed tbh

It should be noted that the bulk of Steam users are not actually the 'real' AAA market, it's only maybe ~5-10% that matter and it fails to take into account faggots who hardly/never use Steam (older gamers with disposable income and great hardware). It's interesting but you have to take their hardware surveys with a pinch of salt as like all surveys they accidentally select only certain types of people see: political polling and the 'disaffected' voters who'll tell pollers to fuck off and then go vote anyway, though at least with voting you get the 'real' numbers after the election and you don't with hardware surveys.

Honestly AAA developers (and more importantly publishers) take fairly little account and will always go for whatever they want anyway. Also they'll often get into deals with Microsoft, Nvidia etc to purposefully limit games to newer software or hardware (DirectX is used to push Windows users to upgrade and has been for almost a decade).
It's the best measurement to find out only the hardware of those using Steam and inclined to allow the survey and will have a margin of error (no idea what, probably sitting around 1-3% so significant for things like niche OSes, the fact 'hardcore' gamers on Steam only make up at most 10% of users and probably less). That's undeniably useful and indeed interesting but it has to be framed correctly. For example users on 4:3 monitors might have a high crossover with paranoid neckbeards and so you have a massive underreporting of those resolutions, fags on laptops or Win10… are often idiots who'll say yes to anything so they'll be overrepresented etc.
There's a whole field of employment and research about trying to get truly representative samples and all.

Pray tell what "creativity" that western action games even have, their best shit rips off DMC.

You're retarded.

Also going to note that for performance there are larger issues than simply CPU stats (themselves a complicated issue that isn't just comparisons of numbers) or even hardware as a whole. Things like overheating can have a massive effect on performance (I drop 20 degrees Celsius when I bother to clean my PC out and can gain ~20-30 fps or more) and that was a specific issue for the 360 due to its design being locked down. This isn't even aimed at consoles really I just want fags to clean out their computers more often instead of upgrading components, I'd put money on 60%+ of Holla Forums never bothering to do it even once.
OPEN YOUR PC AND CLEAN IT user, COMPRESSED AIR IS CHEAP.

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I think you need to look at the doujin circles and see what's going on for yourself. Look up last years comiket videos

You aren't wrong about what you are saying - but otherwise developers don't have a reliable metric for a performance tier target. Otherwise developers target console first to the dismay of a lot of PC users and we get things like nier automata and batman arkham knight.

this is the problem with fanatics, they just never do their own research and believe whatever their handlers tell them. Historically PC has always has a period of "catching up" to new consoles. The only exception to this has been the 8th gen, and the 7th gen had a very fast catch up period due to the breakthrough of unified shaders that debuted after the generation started. Very unreliable people.

The difference between the combat of Jedi Outcast, Severance Blade of Darkness, Dark Messiah, Condemned, GTA IV, and Exanima is pretty great. In comparison, at least 95% of jap combat games have combo based dmc combat.

What's that?

closest thing there is to indie devs in japan.

Pray tell, how are they different?

Japanese games are just the same fucking reashes.
Stop pretending like this ain't so, we all play them.
I even read VNs, so fuckoff

When it only got ported to the Xbawks one year later.
Holy shit, an underage retard whos pretending to know what hes talking about.
Kill yourself lad

Holy shit, what the fuck am I reading?

Holy shit, this board has become full of underage cuckchan retards talking out of their ass.

I'm lazy and only do it once every few months user. Also I hit my PC when it misbehaves, it doesn't help but it sure as fuck makes me feel better. I should probably take better care of it though.

Well yes, that's an issue, but developers being a bit dumb about their own industry and trusting poorly collected stats is not new. God knows how many of them buy into the piracy = lost sales shit. I mean hiring a real surveying company to try and work on this shit would be better (those exist and all).

Apparently not my post.

Do you play all jap games or something?

Define "rehash".

I can't read chinese.

Can't you access youtube?

actually, although unlikely in your PC, when we used to hit things like old CRT tvs when they weren't getting a clean signal, the vibration would have a cold solder joint make contact again. It's actually a legitimate way to test electronics.

all this autistic screeching and failure to comprehend 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

game play is a universal language, you can absolutely watch and see

I play all these games, now it's time for you to tell me how different they are.

That was years ago, now Bamham is all the rage.

Well, yea you can.

Then you're stupid if you're still asking.

Even years ago, the west wasn't the best at action games.

If anything, the east was even better back then.

Ah, that's actually a pretty good thing to know.

So no argument then?

Speaking of Doujin game (not the parody, I mean the JP indie scene) Suguri series on already on (((Steam))), if you loathe that shit then buy it straight from the localisers, Fruitbat Factory. inb4 shill, Acceleration of Suguri is comfy fun though, it is a hybrid danmaku (2hu) and fighting game. A danmaku-fighter if you will. Needs a little more love though.

What he's saying is that even the japanese hand of today don't match up to the eastern games of old. It's not a matter of east vs West you retarded weeb. It's modern vs retro. Yes, a hidden gem comes out here and there, but back then, good games, both east and west, AAA and hidden gem, came out more frequently and cosistantly. Even obscure low budget games like Raw Danger and Project Eden tried something new and original. You can't say that about low budget games of today that are the sam we "le metroidvania dark souls xd" clones.

Everything gets shittier, sure, but saying all jap games are rehashes are uber retarded.

If anything, they do not rehash enough, jap games barely come out anymore.

press button to auto lock on and attack and win, I wish I had that webm of the streamer playing shadow of mordor with his monitor off.

yeah, it's also a good indicator it may be time to open it up and inspect solder joints.

I play new comiket releases every year, what's been really exciting to me is seeing a lot of games get console releases. I'm definitely going to pick up sakuna for PS4 if it gets a physical release. What's also been great is despite the lacking adoption rate of UE4 in the West, tons of Japanese devs have been making awesome looking UE4 games every year.

How far back are we talking? Because before Capcom set some standards they were pretty hit and miss.

Have this instead.

The japs have dominated the action scene since the genre was invented.
Compared to western action games, which were all shit?

Even the famous Dark Messiah was a shit game, the kick mechanic is stupidly overpowered and there was a death trap everywhere making the whole game looking like a theme park.

dark messiah is pretty much the greatest example of wasted potential in every regard. It's got the foundation of a decent first person melee game but it undermines itself in so many ways.

It's novel but playing it is pretty much signing yourself up for fantasizing about what could have been.

Do you have sub 50 IQ or something.

The difference is a bit more complicated than that, but I don't think I want to waste my time explaining shit your monkey brain won't comprehend.

Maybe if they made the presentation less cringeworthy, I'd try it. And tbh, overly arcadey gameplay like that feels more gimmicky rather than novelty. This is the problem with indie scenario, too much gimmicks.

Jedi Outcast/Academy pretty much shits on anything from japan.

I took out dark messiah from my list. I also feel like it's pretty gimmicky. Condemned implemented staggering better. Still more innovative than a lot of japanese games out there though.

This looks damn good, thanks user. BTW, you live in nipland? It is damn hard to get fresh comiket releases if you are not there, I mean you cannot even find a catalogue or any PR outside. I want to see all the selection for myself, not just the 'localised' ones.

Shinobi and Ninja Gaiden is the fastest game ever made.
…which you can do even in Monster Hunter?
Nigger, you know DMC has this right? It has TIMED directional blocking. And how does this make the gameplay different?
Again, how exactly does this make the gameplay different?
Such as what? The game is fundamentally a shooting game, it's not even as good as jap TPS.
So can you fly or jump super high like DMC?

So do go on with your point, because your points are not sufficient.

innovation my ass, that's literally sonic adventures

There's no problem with the industry.
You fags seem to forget that the problem of lazy rehashes has always been apparent, to the point of causing a literal crash in the 80's. That's why Nintendo invented the Nintendo seal of approval, to assure customers that it wouldn't sell them buggy unplayable shovelware. The graphics have gotten better but there has always been loads of bad games. It's just more noticeable now because there's no obvious graphical milestones to conquer anymore and we have the internet to see what's out there.

When I was a kid playing Burger Time on the NES sucked, but I just saw it as a bad game, not a part of some overarching condemnation of an industry.

No, I just make friends with them and find people that share them.

you're very obsessed with perceived firsts, aren't you?

Did you even watch it?

Only really true in North America. Certainly a large market but not actually a threat to the worldwide industry (also the reason Nintendo never really dominated Europe the same way as NA). Not that relevant here but always necessary to note.
The claim is not that bad games and shovelware are a new thing but rather than they are now the only thing coming out of AAA in any real numbers. To throw out arbitrary numbers if the ratio was 90% shit to 10% good previously it'd now be something like 99% shit and 1% good and that's a problem (you can disagree with this claim but don't misrepresent it as the different claim that the industry used to be 100% good, 75% good or whatever). I'd struggle to name as many good (AAA) titles in the last 5 years as came out in, say, 1995 obviously there will be some overlooked games for any year and more of those will have come to light for 1995 than 2010 but I doubt those would be in significant enough numbers to change what I'm saying and so would most non-weebs while weebs would just say the same thing but specifically aimed at the 'west' (even some weebs I know seem to say Japanese games have suffered from this a bit, don't know/care enough to dig deeper).

Autoaim and no acrobatics? Sure they are.

Not as precise as Severance. MH doesn't even have directional attacks.

Really? Directional? Not even the camera can be moved freely.

Jedi Outcast emphasizes the precision of mouse aim, Severance is all about timed hopping and attack stance, Condemned is about timing your blocking with different weapon stats and stuff, etc. I don't want to go in depth, I have more important things to do.

Pushing people down the stairs.

Nay. They all have stiff physics. This one's seamless. Gameplay isn't all about muh mechanics, but also sanctification from controlability of the output/feedback.

No, but you can move the characters hands freely.

Ja. Sonic adventure with more flashy stuff, pretty much.

The Xbox 360 was a bit of a monster back in the day. It had a triple-core processor, when everyone was still on a single-core Pentium 4. Its games still look pretty damn good, considering how little the system costs now.

No, but its all Hack&Slash/BeatemUp, Fightans or JRPGs/Dungeon crawlers, thankfully SHMUPs are still being made.

A Dark Souls or a Monster Hunter is a hard thing to come by.
And while I like Yakuza and EDF I don't pretend like they haven't been iterated to death.

Neither of those games (FarCry and C&C) were designed with console inputs in mind originally and F.E.A.R controls great, with the mention of it controlling bad because it was designed originally for KB+M making no sense.

Kill yourself retard

Not an argument you cuckchan literal nigger.

Noice
Seen Senko No Ronde 2?

Bet you can't even handle the platforming

Jesus fuck, this board has become irredemeably shit.
I'm bailing out

They are even more acrobatics, you can wall jump in NG and kill enemies off-air, never letting them hit the ground.
MH is tight as shit regarding hitboxes, and no, it doesn't need directional attacks because there are attacks for each direction.
Yes, because you can move the analog freely, camera matters jack in action games.
All all jap action games are about timing, timing your attack, your block, your dodge, all about it, and the weapons each have different combo, length and even reaction times, something the west cannot reach.
You can push enemies down hole in DMC too, what's the big deal? Muh physics?
Do you even understand what you say? GTA IV was a shitty ass TPS, for all the muh physics, the way to aiming was shit, the gun shot sounds awful and the enemies feel barely reactive.
So you can't even move however you want.

Sonic Adventure still looks better than that.

Considering these games sell well enough to justify their enormous budget, here must be some people who see them as "good games". The percentages you cite are as subjective as what constitutes a good game anyway.

To return to the topic of the thread, innovation is not as profitable as redoing the previous year's stuff over and over. Unfortunately big AAA titles have too many layes of bureaucracy for someone to insert breakable unnecessary props for instance without having to justify it to everyone above them.

The best path so far seems to be what Valve did, see some indie projects with a cool mechanic, hire the devs and make a bigger game based on that.

And the west is all FPS.
Even in those generalization, the japs still got the west beat.
The fuck, these games are literal yearly rehashes.
Yeah, no, they haven't, we need more games like Yakuza and EDF.
And the shitty combat, and the shitty escort mission, you damn sure I can't handle it.
Stick around and embarrass yourself some more.

I miss the good old day when retarded OP's inb4'ing got told to fuck off too, cant have everything can we?

Are you that "games are not responsive" autist that keeps shitting up stalker threads?

You shoot them and they die, that's not reactive.

Reactive is when the enemies switch to different forms/fighting style when hit in a certain spot i.e. RE4 or Dead Space.

it's been dead since 2007. making threads about it isn't going to bring it back

Please point out where I said that, I'll wait.
That was literally my fucking point, that it controlled poorly when ported to consoles. It's not my fault you have the English skills of a fucking spic. Do you need to be walked through my post word by fucking word?

Majority belief is meaningless as a metric for anything other than 'lots of people believe this.
It literally says right in the post you're quoting 'to throw out arbitrary numbers' or in retard-friendly 'to use obviously ass-pulled numbers as an example, don't treat this as a claim these numbers are in any way accurate'.
Yes user it's all relative and subjective, who can really say what's a good game? But more seriously you're free to disagree with me on what a good game is and isn't but don't pretend you don't know have a solid grasp of what I (or even the average user) means when they say 'good' in the sentence 'games now are not as good as they once were'.
True.
You're correct to use the past tense as Valve no longer do this effectively but all in all it's a fairly effective tactic (though Valve do have a terrible habit of dumbing down the original game/mod for mass appeal).

You basicly just ignored the examples that I gave and built a straw man of "they die and dying is not reactive".
They drop their gun and the fallback from the fight when they do, they take cover when you shoot them. What do you want, that they bust out a sword out their ass and do some DMC shit when you shoot them?
Get real retard.

I'm pretty surprised Sakuna was even shown in E3.

The examples are not fucking meaningful in fucking gameplay.

It doesn't matter if your their gun falls off, or they die if they are pushed off stair.

These are the exact point of useless technology, something to look at but ultimately not meaningful.

Honestly I think it has to do with politics and social engineering.

Blaming this on the business guy makes no sense.
Every business graduate knows for something like vidya, product differentiation is key to success. The only reason why a business man would dampen innovation is fear of bad press or government intervention(game getting banned).

You can walljump in JO, and do a backflip, front flip, side flip, lunge forward, lunge back, force jump your way out of the level…

Compared to severance? Nuh.

That's an idiotic statement.

Confirmed for never playing Jedi Outcast.

Western action games have all of those, plus mouse aiming and more improvisation than combo.

Yeah, gameplay isn't all about competition, but also the satisfaction of having control over everything.

Learn english dude. Also, the physics alone makes it the most sophisticated tps game ever made. Once again, the satisfaction factor is most of the time more important than competition.

You can though?

Physics are gameplay though, and pretty meaningful at that. What defines as gampelay is control over digital scenarios, and GTA IV's physics give a whole new range of emergent scenarios.

So all the shit you can do in NG, except the force jump shit because NG isn't buggy.
Compared to any game, MH has some of the tightest hitbox in game.
How is it idiotic?
Camera jacks in action game, Jedi Outcast would be perfectly playable with a static camera.
No, western games definitely do not place such an importance on timing, which is why games like fucking Severance, MnD and Condemned are praised when their timing gimmick is old as shit compared to jap game.
Gameplay is about fucking fun, it's not about muh physic.
How is it sophisticated? Do the physics make you play the game any differently? No, it doesn't.
So can you jump and air dash like in DMC?
Pray tell, give me your examples of how the physics in GTA IV make its shooting ANY different than the average TPS, I would dare say it's shittier than Gears of War because the aiming is crap.

...

It's kind of like the Hollywood situation with remakes ad infinitum. The development cost got so fucking bloated and expensive no one wants to risk it.

The West has 4X/GSG/RTS/Sims
Nips have SHMUPs and SRPGs
I'm not talking about mainstream shit only.
But the first games on their series were amazing and their devs/publishers merely rereleased them with new gimmicks, you're just proving my point.
True, doesnt mean they havent been iterated to death by the companies that own the unique IPs.
Pretty good for a 2006 Source game with a First person viewpoint.
Give me something that had better combat and better combat sandboxy physics at the time, shit give me something akin to that now.
There is none
What escort mission?
Have you even played the game you god damned retard?
Because it sure as hell doesn't seem like it

I misunderstood that as that those games were originally modified mechanically wise to work better on consoles, much like Deus Ex the Sequel.
My bad

Innovation was never the goal, innovation doesn't sell. Instead, the goal is to mimic popular trends and hope that they can bring your product success.
They were not innovative, they took elements from other games and incorporated them into their own systems. Back then, the big selling point was the advent of 3D space, and before that it was "blast processing" or other equally vague nonsense.
Is this some copypasta from reddit or something?

If we are not talking about mainstream shit only then the japs win even more, they have fucking visual novels and sound novels, something the west barely experiment at now.
Define "rehash".
No, they fucking haven't, come the fuck on, compare that shit to Ass Creed, now that's a rehash.
No, it wasn't good, the slashing has no fucking physics, the only physics base shit in the kicking, which is hilarious overpowered.
Chivalry: medieval warfare.
Chapter 5.

Are you sure you're remembering Messiah right? I remember there being physics based spells, being able to throw objects and heavy blows knocking enemies off their feet.

Not that user but why are you comparing GTA:IV a game I'm not a huge fan of by the way and I also wouldn't call it the most sophisticated ever made to GoW and why are you then limiting the influence of IV's physics only to its shooting? That's like picking up an orange and complaining it doesn't taste as much like meat as chicken does then saying you can't discuss the benefits of orange in anything other than orange ice cream (i.e. ignoring its primary uses in things like orange juice). Setting aside that rather half-baked analogy IV and GoW, despite sharing the same genre, are of wildly different sub-genres. GoW's sub-genre (whatever it might be called) is almost entirely reliant on its gunfights, in IV's sub-genre gunfights are merely one gameplay element of many.
Someone hasn't played much MP then, go play duel and get back to me on that.

Nigger he said 'better combat and better sandboxy physics at the time'. Chivalry: Medieval Warfare is not 'sandboxy' (mixing up your sub-genres again) and it came out in 2012, 6 years after DMoMM. Perhaps you meant Age of Chivalry, the original sourcemod, but that's a wildly different game.

Not jumping into the rest of this shitflinging but from what you're saying you have a very poor grasp of the games in question.

Fair enough.

You remember correctly user.

My bad, he did also add 'akin to that now' though I'm not sure why you'd pick Chivalry since it's a fairly fucking broken game with a massively exploitable combat system. Also what I said about it being 'non-sandboxy' still stands.

Yes, I remember it right.

The physic is wonky that when you kick the enemy, they will fall far away, yet a slash will never move them.

It's weird as hell.

Dude I was quoting genuinely believe GTA: IV is a great action game, and no, it's a shitty TPS, its only strong point is the story (which was serious but boring) and the technology (which is mind blowing but does nothing for the gameplay).
My point is that these games, Severance, MnB and Condemned are great because they place importance on directional and timing-based combat, but surprise, jap games have done this shit for fucking years.
Miss out the at the time part, but yeah, I would say for a first person game, I can't say there's a better hack and slash combat game, at the time because first person hack and slash isn't a really popular genre with lot of competition.

Chivalry has better physic engine and attack vector and armor matter.

Dark Messiah can be sum up by two words: stun and kick, or just kick.

FEAR innovated a new ai model duffus

Innovation is hard to use nowadays. Back when the media wasn't throwing vidya into the market, every game was just expected to be a completely new idea and there were no rules. They just wound up making a game and it was either fun or it wasn't.

WHen the media got their mitts on it, that was the end of innovation.

Because NOW, innovation is bad. If the game is not a carbon copy of the last game, well then it's bad and it becomes a race to make a game that resembles the last game as much as possible without changing anything too much. A new game of a new IP? It won't sell unless there is a shitload of funds put into advertising.

Also
Fucking lol

Does anyone have the webm where the guy is getting chased and then falls with perfect comedic timing?

No movies, like videogames and theatre, will never be art.
Individuals within all of these mediums may be artists but the finished products are not art for there are simply too many people who have a say in the final outcome of the piece. Art is personal and singular to both the individual taking it in and the artist.

I kinda wish more games rehash DMC, but that's not happening.

Most games take more from Musou than DMC, because DMC's style system and combo trees take time and effort.

Musou is easier, shitload of characters, each with a short but unique movesets.

I would categorize the problems to three parts:
1)Complacency / Stagnation
2)Lack of Standards
3)Post-Modernism
Complacency / Stagnation

I posted this image about why AAA video game look so much alike. This was presented by someone who defended EA's business model in some stream talking about game journalism. I eventually found the website which this image originated from but now the website is gone. However, I found the YouTube video which elaborated on this image.
youtu.be/h5tbDhiFBQg
The video is about the Business of Design and it talks about the ins and outs of designing art assets for a video game. However, I think that the same philosophy has been applied to other aspects of video game development. At this point, the video touch upon Design Risks which really grinds my gears. Yes, the video was about the business of design and I'm not so idealistic to think that video games should only be a work of passion. However, this is killing off ideas before they even get on paper. Also, video games don't really look significantly better than before. Somehow, the video game medium prematurely ended its experimental phase in favor tried and true formulas. There is indie development but it doesn't have the marketing or human resources to directly compete. Video games unlike books require a lot of human resources making it harder to stay true to one person's vision.

Lack of Standards
I can make a long rant about review scores but I'll sum it up to this.
Fuck. Review. Scores.
Review scores are moving targets. A 9/10 today isn't the same as it is 10 years ago. There are also those using review scores as an objective metrics of quality. This can not be stopped. People want review scores. If there is no Metacritic, another would take its place. Game criticism is too entwined with marketing. There needs to be a conversation, a back and forth, not ass kissing. What other mediums have that prevents them from endlessly strung around by the latest trends are timeless classics. People need to look at the ups and downs of these classics and learn from them instead of just copying them.

Post-Modernism
youtu.be/bHw4MMEnmpc
What has dwelling on what is art and forfeiting to subjectivity given any medium? The pursuit of beauty has lead to study of human anatomy, perspective, color theory, etc. What has going around saying that beauty is subjective has done? We keep asking things like "What is a video game?", "Is video game art?", or "Does video game need to be fun?" but we tend to ignore less meta questions like "What makes this game enjoyable.", "What is this game design trying to achieve?", or "What works and what doesn't work?". Also, too many people are less concern about making a good game and more concern about proving video games as artistic medium.

Art is shit anyway, so who cares?

>>>/reddit/

Alright, you win, you win ese. BTW, do you look like one of these 2 persons?

The definition of art is objective. It is hard to be standardized by the academy, but the meaning of art itself is objective. As put down by Tarkovsky:

You know you don't fool anyone, right ?

I look like a fat nerd actually.

And yes, Gears of War plays better than GTA IV.

Setting aside IV's flaws in storytelling (many) the tech does add some degree of entertainment to the gameplay, particularly in terms of the driving/running faggots over portion of the game (quite important to a GTA game). It does also exert minor influence on the shooting since you can make fags fall over with the proper physics based consequences which is fairly effective if you're on a console and need to deal with armoured fags (pcfags will just headshot them and move on). The point was more that, regardless of what that fag might or might not have said, IV is not really comparable to GoW. Both games have better games in their respective sub-genres: for IV the previous GTAs, Saints Row 2, Just Cause 2, arguably Sleeping Dogs for the 'serious storytelling' aspect and for GoW things like Binary Domain, Max Payne 1 and 2 and I can't think of any other good Third Person Shooters because it's by and large a terrible genre maybe Mafia 1 since I classify that more as a normal FPS with explorable backdrops than a sandbox-open world shooter but comparing the two is a bit silly because you can only compare specific mechanics the two sub-genres share and of course GoW's shooting will have more depth since it's the main feature of the game (imagine comparing IV's driving to GoW's no-driving-at-all for a more absurd example).
My bad, did not read it correctly. I'd still say Mount and Blade (don't care about the other two as much) does much more than implement existing Japanese mechanics, the simple swing + speed system gets very in-depth at high level play to a degree I haven't really seen elsewhere (most games hardcode moves like 'block then quickly counter' instead of having you execute that by moving your character and chambering instead of normal blocking so the four basic moves are actually any number of combat techniques in practice). Perhaps Bushido Blade would be somewhat comparable but that one game doesn't really could as the entirety of Japanese development doing it for years.
While I don't really want to get into that that's fairly solid evidence for the claim the Japanese are just as bad at rehashing the same basic gameplay elements no matter how much earlier they might have gotten there. I will add that specifically in terms of abstract, hard-coded fighting systems nip games are fairly good but personally I think hard-coding (press button[s], cool animation + specific attack or whatever) moves is the wrong way to do things if you want real combat systems and devs should be moving to the M&B/Bushido Blade/Kingdom Come hopefully system instead.
I caught that in the second post but yes, my mistake.
I mean you can just play M&B in first person if you want though that's handicapping yourself in MP and SP AI does not show the same depth of shit in melee. I'd like to see an option for server owners to lock first person in Bannerlord, that'd be fun.
It also isn't classifiable as 'sandboxy' which was the real point (different sub-genres). Chivalry is for PvP melee, DMoMM though it did have MP is really designed for fucking about purely with the physics. You can be a boring fag and spam the kick but the point is more to mess around with physics objects and the funnier spells. Also once again Chivalry is pretty broken because it went down the 'hardcoded moves' route instead of the 'simple controls/concepts, depth by combining them' route. Running at your enemy backwards with a longsword and killing them should not work.

The thing to really stress here is you need to be more careful with comparing across largely incomparable (sub-)genres.

alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear.pdf

I disagree with his definition of art. What he's saying is fine, but he's not defining art in that paragraph. He's defining religion and the need for it. Art has no need to be spiritual or uplifting. That's just a general byproduct of a personal connection with the artist and audience.

Nobody appreciates that vidya has been a bigger industry than movies since before the NES even came out. It has always been serious fucking business and the long lasting companies are the ones that adhered to the more conservative mindset.

Never heard of it, went look that up and it me made up my mind, I am moving to nipland. Since I speak moon (for work) anyway, going to get that N1, and then play those cool authentic indie non-pozzed games.

To clarify: should have referred to Bushido Blade as a pair of games though they're really pretty similar.

Forget the rest of the argument but here we go, good TPS
- RE4
- Vanquish
- Binary Domain
- Dead Space 1+2
- Max Payne 1+2
- GoW 1+2
Maybe the evil within.

TPS is not a bad genre and it does have exceptional games, just very little.

GTA games suck ass as TPS.

Also, I miss Cold Fear and Freedom Fighters I guess.

1. The problem is that anything different gets shot down, and thrown into the memory hole. To make things worse, such infamy is then used as a foundation by tryhards to make themselves a name as edgy critics.

2. They neither judge a game by its merits alone, or as part of a series: they only judge games by emotion, particularly nostalgia. Their first games of youth are insuperable gems, everything else is to compared to those usurpassable masterpieces.

3. This is particularly true for games in a genre. Read the idiot's opinion, in any site or board: they COMPARE games with different style, gameplay and stories. As if they were cars or pc hardware, and the ultimate answer is always that only one is worth it. There is simply no room in their brains, for games to be different and equally worth it side by side. That Tombcharted doesn't need to do everything that Soul Of War does, PLUS SOMETHING ELSE, to "win".

So, anyone who formats a proper paragraph is a baboon? You're a real fucking retard.

I also kinda forget about Armored Core, because mech-game aside, they are TPS.

How can you innovate in game mechanics when your main consumer base are people who don't even see game mechanics? Most people have no idea what rules govern a game and they see it as a magical window to another world and not a virtual environment full of rules that it is.

It doesn't matter that the world of the game is mechanically dead if the main player base doesn't even know what mechanics are, every single game will seem "alive" to them and so they'll eat up anything that isn't too complex and doesn't require for them to use any part of their brain.

You can't innovate when the simplest way is the most effective.

What about Gun Valkryie, MDK and the Ratchet and Clank games?
Also as much as I hate to admit it Dark Void has some really cool ideas, it's just buried under 90% of a mess of a game.

Haven't played Gun Valk and MDK but Ratchet and Clank definitely qualities.

Ratchet and Clank plays very good for a pre-RE4 TPS, I would say it plays better than Freedom Fighters.

However, TPS only gets gud when RE4 and Cold Fear come out with the over the shoulder camera, that's like some genius shit.

I'd drop GoW from that list because I personally find them horrifically boring 40k-lite but otherwise that's fair since I'd classify RE4 and Dead Space 1+2 as more 'third person shooters with attempts some successful, some not at horror' than outright horror games.
I was mostly joking about that to be honest, I just find it's the dump-genre for lazy games along with FPS.
Yes, that's why I've included them along with JC2 as sandbox-openworld games. I'd also add Red Faction Guerilla to the 'good sandboxy' list since it's reasonably fun. I actually played it again recently and liked it more the second time around, perhaps because it doesn't waste your time with too much story nonsense as it would were it made nowadays.

Not really aware of Cold Fear, Freedom Fighters yes. Might classify Armored Core in its own special sub-genre.

MDK is a definite yes. I'd still say ~10 games is fairly slim pickings for nearly two decades of existence though.

Barely vidya
You have to be shitting me
This is desperation
Same mechanics and gameplay with some added gimmicks.
What Platinum has done for years
What Call of Duty has done for a decade
What Nintendo has done for several decades
Yakuza Kiwami, 5 and 0 are the same exact fucking game.
EDF5 is 2025/4.1 with some gimmicks.
MH has been the same base game for years with some added content.

Compare Shadow Tower to Dark Souls and tell me that a rehash though.
Correct, and so are most Nip games.
What?
So you're ignoring everything from Items on the ground to traps and ropes and fire?
If you can even get close to the enemies or don't get overwhelmed by 4 of them.
Or you don't fight against more powerful ghouls that don't get stunned by kicking.
Released in 2012, slashing has no physics, doesn't let me throw Oil at a enemies and burn them with a fireball/flaming arrow or by kicking them from ledges after making them fall down by throwing a barrel against them.

Let me guess, you only played Dark Messiah after playing that fuckj g trash?
AAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHH YOU CAN LITERALLY TELL THE BITCH TO STAY PUT AND DO THE WHOLE FUCKING MISSION ALONE YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED THE GAMR YOU FUCKING NIGGER AAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHA HOMY SHIT

GoW plays pretty well, but I would RE4 and Dead Space 1+2 are far over it because the cover system blows.

I hate cover system in any game, and it's the reason why Binary Domain/GoW/Vanquish are worse than RE4/Dead Space for me.

And open world games suck in gameplay in general, they are really about quality over quantity, even in the masterpiece like GTA3/GTA VC.

I know man, it fucking sucks.
What sucks even more is that there aren't even many games that attempt to tackle the genre. The most I know of are shitty AAA movie-lite titles and something that wanted to ape R&C, but when I played it it's like the faggots who made the game played 10 minutes of the first game with the wrench and decided that was the optimal game length.

The shareholders and investors, at the top of the organizational hierarchy have the most influence on how games develop. Their decision making trickles down to the development and production.

They aren't here to enrich the medium. They're here to make money by spending money. It isn't in their interest to invest in a project unless its a proven concept. Substance has little concern to them in contrast to brand recognition. Its also part reason why most AAA games are devoid of joy.

I see game projects from /agdg/ that come with ten fold more creative concepts than a majority of published releases, in the current industry.

You have to be 18 to post here.

More vidya than fucking walk sim.
Why? The west hasn't done anything like Higurashi.
Thus every sequels are a rehash.
No, they aren't.
Agreed, but 2025/4.1 is not a rehash of its past games.
Also damn wrong. MH changes so much even old MH fans hate it now.
Shadow Tower is a different IP.
It has no fucking physics, slashing doesn't actually move enemy, and it does a fixed damage.
Yes, they are fucking gimmicks, have you noticed that every fucking levels have those? They exist so you can kill enemies, easily.
Attack vector and physics are actually present in that game, so hold your hose.
Ah, yes, see how you focus on the two gimmicky part of Dark Messiah, the magic and the kick? Because those are stupidly overpowered and the game is built around it, while the hack and slash is dogshit.
It's an escort mission, friendo, and a very shitty one at that.

And are they actually released, or just idea guys?

yeah dude I love tits

I love tits too.

And asses.

The latter you could say its the marketing, astroturfing, and publicized reviewers. Gaming doesn't have anything established solidly e.g you can objectively evaluate artwork/painting/photos by laws of aesthetics, but game reviews or forums are the most gaming has and easier manipulated. Heck, if you try to compare games and assess them on message boards, most of the time you get pointless bashing of one game or another. Then there was the phase of video games focused on cutscenes and cinematics while the actual interactivity takes a bit more on the backseat. More writers are trained to write about the older medium, being film, than about video games.

"Expanding the audience" was a common term used in later 2000s. In early 2010's, the demographics were expanded, but women weren't a huge slice of the pie and hypothetically a target audience of the other half of the population sounds over optimistically appealing to grab.

So yes, I think it's a very social thing.

Maybe that's what art is. Art is often defined as a reflection of humanity, and whereas science explains and reflects the outer world, then art must reflect the inner world. Religion itself is a reflection of humanity's greatest and innermost desire. Therefore, it's not wrong to conclude that art and religion are immensely similar.

I didn't feel Binary Domain was held back too much by the cover system mostly because I ignored it, Vanquish was broadly similar in that it was there for no good reason.
The best way to do it is either Sleeping Dogs' or Mafia's route and make it a broadly linear game with a small explorable world for flavour or go full sandbox (sandbox isn't the same really as open-world) like Mount and Blade's SP or maybe Just Cause 2 and give you a game designed around freedom. The trade-off many open world games make is to give you a lot of hand-made content with no structure and it results in it feeling like so much busy-work. The only game that I think does open world well is Bully and that's because it has crazy detailing like the majority of random pedestrians being named characters either from the story or with a small bio in the game's files showing they put thought into them. At that point though you're talking about a super-detailed hub level instead of copy-pasting the same fields with a little bit of detailing.

While I highly dislike e-celebrities and have no memory of who it was that fat fuck in the webms I sometimes see posted around here whose theory was third person = default genre for fags who want to make a movie with no concern for gameplay is fairly solid. The worst part of that is you've got games like MP1/MP2 which really do try to emulate the feel of movies without sacrificing gameplay.

/agdg/ are idea guys but not in the skilless sense, they just need someone standing behind them shouting LIMIT YOUR FUCKING SCOPE TO SOMETHING ACHIEVABLE over and over again.

Filter out Russians and Brazilians, user. Most Western European gamers run minimum 4 core cpus

Women are not a serious audience and they never will be, all they ever do is playing phone games as much or fad like Pokemon GO.

The problem lies with the makers and the userbase.

The two of them want to make vidya grown up, to be mature, this is the big problem because vidya has matured ever since the 90s-00s, and there's no need for vidya to become "diversified".

The "muh vidya = art" is the problem from day one, people just don't realize the art world fucking sucks, and vidya is better experienced as a hobby than something high brow like art.

I don't know why art has to have different pretentious definitions. It takes imagination to design gameplay. It is art, although, it does not take much imagination to churn out a video game that clones another. If paintings are readily accepted as art, then what about several miscellaneous different paintings of flowers in vases or fruits in bowls.

Honestly, Vidya is the last profitable area for traditional artists, since post-modernism dragged its ass all over the art world, turning everything to shit.

Post-modernism and ironic-ism are catching onto vidya too, and it goes with the art crowd.

Thankfully, these "art games" still sell like crap.

Differentiation is important, but you have to work within the confines of what the average customer expects, and not all innovation is good. If the average customer wants a burger, you need to be offering up some variation on the concept of meat and cheese on bread, and you don't want your stoned cook "innovating" by putting pasta inside.

I maintain that the best games are always made within a compromise between the creator's vision and the producer's tight leash.

The creator's vision creates the image of the game, and the producer makes the image a reality.

Too much and too less of either sides mean a shit game.

Because this media requires there to be actual competency behind the development. There's a reason "art games" aren't games. The developers aren't autistic enough to actually make a game. If they were they would reject post-modernism for the nihilistic pile of shit it is.

Every "art" form require competency. It's when you shit out a pile of shit and everyone hail you, that's when you know the "art" form has become shit.

Developers without a producer/publisher is exactly why kickstarter games tend to never materialize or are massive piles of shit. Creators need a business man to smack them over the head now and then with the budget report.

If vidya had axioms and definitions at least, actual discussion and assessment of quality would be less of a clusterfuck. Right now, its not too uncommon to see others bemoan the normalfags buying garbage based on marketing, brand name recognition, hype, and graphics.

The current art world does infact, suck. It's gotten to the point where being an artist of anything is nothing special. Every tumblrite or tranny ever is a visual "artist" .
It's only going to get worse from here on out.

On the other hand, if only art world has better, more objective axioms nowadays.

I feel art is too subjective nowadays.

… Maybe this is why it is immune to the post-modernist shit? Post-modernism is about subverting and rejecting axioms.

It takes imagination to create anything. Art is about both the form and the purpose. The purpose of video game and other forms of entertainment is different from art.

You can argue that they're just room decorations, but if even those simple haikus are able to spiritually uplift people, then who knows? Kafka said that if we fully understood art, we would be angels. Art is something we can see but never fully comprehend.

Game dev hobbyist is a real thing in Japan already, seeing doujin circles having game development as a hobby/side job to them.

Still, these doujin games will never be able to compete against big games made by the companies, because the companies are far more competent and have more doughs.

Its a mix of both. Just like in the industry, some game projects get realized and eventually released, while others don't.

I sincerely believe that game dev hobbyists are the future.

We're already seeing games developed by less than 5 people, with more creative differentiation, and success sales-wise in comparison to average AAA releases, than games developed by teams consisting of 100+ individuals.

...

I have always hated this strange mythication of art.

Art should be easily seen and understood by the common folk, if it can only be understood by an elite circle, then it becomes circlejerk trash.

I just find it incredibly hard to believe that no indie dev anywhere on the planet wanted to make something in the genre besides a very small group and not many of them were any good.
Truth be told the whole reason I started looking into game dev was to make a TPS I want to play but I doubt I'll go anywhere.

I agree too. The definition almost became subjective too.

I don't think art itself is as special as you're trying to make it. It's a creative work. You have art that invokes optimistic emotions, and art that does the complete opposite, but it shouldn't be based on how it affects people (subjectives).

You're probably a little right. There's no definite guidelines as to what makes a game bad or good, to peer pressure people into liking or disliking certain games.

Indie devs mostly lack talent and those who don't lack money. TPS is actually pretty expensive because of the amount of animation you have to do on the player character instead of just having a plank of wood with a camera on top like in a first person game.

Yeah, indie devs are better focusing on TBS/RTS/RPG, games that don't rely hugely on complex animations/hitboxes.

The big problem is that a certain game was VERY close to becoming my dream TPS game, but then it turned out to be some fucking speedrunner's wetdream instead.
I fucking hate those games.

+ at best when it comes to vidya axioms and definitions, we have behavioral psychologists hired at video game companies to make money off people inclined towards grinding and micropayments.

There is, but it's things post-modernists aren't autistic enough to understand well enough to create. Things like programming, mechanics and the interaction thereof, skill based gameplay, or detailed worlds with lore oozing from every wall.

Actually, art is so mythic that the peasant folks would understand it better than the academic elites. The essence of art is simply indescribable using the scientific sense. What Jesus said about how the poor and small would understand God better than the rich and powerful is applicable to art. Only the poor would have the desire for the absolute, as the rich are already content with what the world provides.

No, it's more based on what the artist desires.

I honestly believe its about time the international game dev hobbyist community begins to organizing itself, by building a strong independent source/network of developers to change the status quo. /agdg/ is a step in the right direction.

Continuing to feed the current industry and its leaders will keep the cycle of compromised creative integrity running.

Yeah, but I don't think its that straightforward. I kind of meant game as a game thing, not specifically a video game (you don't really program paper and pencil games). You have games completely missing some aspects (e.g turn based games aren't very demanding on dexterity/skill), and then games that try to shove everything in but are overall mediocre (Warframe).

Kickstarter proves money will not solve things for indie game devs.

Architecture is art, and architects generally can't do whatever they want else there'll be some structural integrity problems or contractual issues.

Art is pretty darn simple.

Good art is about good looking people or good looking things doing thing, even if it's a cruel or good thing.

Bad art is about bad looking people (read: badly drawn).

This is why Van Goth is a shit artist.

What game?

Cloudbuilt.

Name one innovate thing in Japanese Vidya in the last 5 years. The stories are almost always the same, nearly every JRPG has the same gameplay and almost every single character is an anime trope. They all even look the same.

Ah, unlucky user.

Bad time to say this.

Nier Automata, Persona 5, Tales of Berseria, Yakuza 0, Dark Souls 3.

All JRPG.

All play differently and look differently.

That's not the desire that I'm talking about. Remember that art is a desire for the absolute. La Sagrada Familia is art because the architect devoted himself to his faith. There is no deeper desire than faith, and the beauty of Sagrada is the expression of it.

I'd say that the only bad art are half assed art that requires no sacrifice, meaningless art where the artist just wants to show off his technical prowess, and art that expresses not-so-inner desires like modern or political art.

Van Gogh is a great artist, he had the emotion of a child.

No, I remember art being what it says it is in the dictionary.

That's where the subjectivity of art comes in and I hate that.

Even commercial art looks better than Van Gogh shit.

Van Gogh shit is only remembered because the elite hipsters like his shit.

There is little to no programming talent left in the industry. So much so that we forgot how to optimize games entirely. It is why every modern game now is +50GBs and runs like shit.
No one has the balls to take risks anymore. Even indie devs never try to create something original most of the time. The over-inflation of game budgets means any risks could really fuck devs over.
Finally, because of those risks and high budgets, AAA companies have all resorted to putting more resources into selling a game than making one. Going back to the lack of optimization, games are too rushed out the door to make back money than to "waste time" polishing them.
That is why the industry is stagnating right now.

Have you considered suicide OP?

Western games are fine just most are trash because of sjw pandering. You wouldn't see a game like postal 2 anytime soon today apart from hatred which got a lot of backlash surprise surprise.
Find it funny how they got noticeably worse after period people came into the scene though.

Dark Souls 3 isn't a JRPG. I'll give you Nier Automata in terms of aesthetics but you're kidding yourself if you think that it creative characters. 9S is the generic "beta fuck that becomes mad and badass because of bad shit that happened to him" and Tobee is the generic "grumpy girl that actually has a heart of gold and has a reason for being grumpy" and that comes from someone who loved that game. Automata's gameplay also has nothing innovative about it. I wouldn't call Yakuza 0 a JRPG either but even if you consider it one, it's not innovate, it's the successor of an over 10 year old series. Persona 5 is the typical JRPG where every character falls into one category. I haven't played Tales of Berseria yet (but I definitely want to) so I can't talk about it but it looks like pretty much every 3D JRPG released in the last 5 years.

*has creative characters

Every dictionary definition of art contains the words beauty and aesthetic. You need to look up the meaning of these two words.

The artist's desire isn't subjective, it's easily observable. Elite hipsters and other types of commercial scums have nothing to do with this.

It's a RPG made in Japan, thus it's a RPG.

And no, the point is that they are all JRPG, but they all play different and look differently, proving that the japs got the West beat in the single genre alone.

I never give a crap about innovation.

It has entirely to do with marketing

It got to the point where regardless of how "innovative" your game was advertised, people would generally not give a shit about it. They only really care about how good a game looks and if it has multiplayer

There have been games that have just been sold based on "this game looks really good" that have been abandoned really fast after release. This is the norm now and it's entirely because of consumers. The devs aren't incentivized to innovate because customers will just buy the same regurgitated shit over and over.

So the average peasant is going to look into Van Gogh art and has some enlightenment?

Nope, chance is he's gonna say this guy draws like shit.

And that's the reason his art sells like shit.

Wtf is reddit spacing? I don't go to that place.

I wouldn't even call Dark Souls an RPG really. The amount of roleplaying you can do is extremely linear. It's more an action game with RPG elements.

Then you should've gotten straight to the point instead of
and over-romanticized lingo.

Well, it's a definite action RPG, there are a huge amount of plot, and even choices and consequences.

westerners can't even define an RPG, post modernism is cancer.

Thank fucking god.

...

As long as they know that this Van Gogh man was nearly blind when he painted the dutch scenery, yes they easily will. But again, not all peasants are less ignorant than the elites. You need to be childlike to understand art.

Well, what do you think the definition of beauty itself is? Art is inevitably romantic because beauty is.

So you have to know some sob story to appreciate Van Gogh art, that's the thing.

It's a nice thing for a "nearly blind" guy to paint, but it's not going to impress me, some peasants.

I share your sentiment. Prior to crowd-funding becoming a viable venue, I had a hunch it would attract a variety of problems.

I'm not talking about a monetary platform, though.

What I mean is an independent amateur developers social network of sorts, where developers would willfully exchange and practice their craft in spare time projects which most likely aren't funded, without the corporate pressure and restrictions.

Historically, some of the most acclaimed titles were the result of developers coming together in their spare time.

Working independently on the side is likely only way to make any significant impact on the current industry.

Most good video games ever are made by a company, with a producer holding tight leash, because they know without a tight leash, the game is gonna be Daikatana-level of bad.

While I don't entirely agree, I can understand your concern.

Self-imposed project management would have to be kept in mind, and learning from history what it could lead to if there isn't a clear direction.

Well, here's the thing: self control is super hard to pull off, and sometimes LESS is more.

This is the reason why some games are good in the first game where the scope is limited, but become shit when the devs expand on the scope.

Game design is hard, you have to know the limits and utilize the limits.

Also, if you can't feel emotion, why bother looking at art. Go back playing your video games.

Well that's a good thing, art isn't entertainment. Haiku is like the least impressive thing ever, yet it's a respectable form of art that uplifts you.

Indeed, maybe I should play some vidya because art's pretentiousness like this pisses me off.

No one's gonna miss you.

Beauty looks good, and what is considered beautiful has various disagreements from tastes and preferences (subjective). Aesthetics is more philosophical. Do not get started on this garbage meta discussion on art, which ultimately pointlessly complicates what qualifies as art and what doesn't through some bullshit subjective metric.

A game design can be creative, it is art in its own way, and art isn't some validating status to achieve.

Not all haikus are uplighting. If one doesn't then apparently, it's not art because of subjectivity.

Can I artistically tell you to fuck off?

Not missing them either.

I may have an idea why, one word, technology.
Imagine a jump from a Atari to a NES, the difference is pretty noticeable in terms of gameplay and graphics.
Games like F.E.A.R tried to make the most out of it's technology at the time and tried to make a FPS game that was just in general different.
Now here comes the problem, we're kind of at a stagnant state when it comes to technology at the moment.
DICE lowered the bar when it came to graphics and effects and while not the start of the whole "Generic Hollywood explosion showcase(TM)", it's one of the reasons why you used to see alot of the same-ish Modern Military shooters everywhere, everyone and their mother has already pushed the graphics to the limit in our current state that there's not really much more we can push it too.
You could argue that games just need a better idea, but think about it for a second, what idea hasn't really been done before in a video game? It doesn't matter of whether or not you like it or not, trying to come with a original idea in a day and age where almost everything has been tried before is difficult.
And because of the current state of technology (though I wouldn't we're at the peak yet), there's not really much that could "WOW!" the player at this point.
The only thing that I think could potentially bring back innovation is Virtual Reality, problem is that's going to shit and being done poorly.

*to

Whatever your personal opinion on what beauty is, it has a single meaning: fulfillment. And that's what art is, a yearning for absolute fulfillment.

That's just what art is. Extremely simple, yet can't be understood with knowledge. And no, the definition is not subjective at all.

So was the first caveman to use a stick as a weapon.

Eazy E wasn't a good poet either.

The artist's vision and desire aren't subjective though.

No.

I don't think the game controllers have changed much either. Most of the games are designed to be playable for the standard Xbox controller or dualshock, which are kind of interchangeable.
If they aren't, it's either Nintendo's thing, or PC's standard mouse and keyboard.
If there's something crazy like a gaming mouse with a ton of buttons, then games aren't really designed for it or even there's some compatibility problems.
There's still the dedicated few niches for specialized controls like a flight stick for simulators and arcade stick for fighting games.

Most developers aim for the most sales, so the game is to be playable for the most common peripherals. And the difference between platforms is a bit lost. It's not at the point anymore where graphics and hardware capability influence new game engines and definitive game releases (e.g slanted, curvature, fluid physics).

But user, there is still plenty of innovation to be had.

A formula was finally figured out with statistics proving if you deviate from the formula you lose sales.

The end.

Most things are hard, user. Discipline can be developed.

This one?

This is what I admire about doujin circles in Japan. They do not kikestart like a glorified beggar, they spent their own free time, their own resources, to create their own game; While contributing meaningfully contribute to society. While the products may not be as polished as the AAA, their competency are more often than not on the same level or even better. After all, their work is their pride, their passion, their love, and they will not be found wanting.

It has 0 humor, unlike postal 2.

Not the talmudic kind of innovation, user.
We all know there's plenty of innovation going on there.

Hatred also fails to run properly on the highest end hardware to date while looking like postal 2 with a black and white filter and a top-down camera.

Quotas and rejects/SJW who latched onto video games & journalism. The SJW who couldn't get a job at the NYT go and work at other companies.

I bet alot of you have been noticing many new conservative talk youtube channels pop up.

Eventually, Conservatism will be the New SJW once everyone mentally agrees that SJW is too cancerous.

give me money and I'll make u innovative games

This. Streamlining the process for selecting a team of devs with "relevant qualifications" instead of experience and a portfolio like they used to so that HR departments in AAA companies didn't get made redundant is the cause of this cancer.

I'll give you ₱955.13.
I want to capture the Touhou audience as well as the Pokemon audience.
What have you got for me?

Nobody said anything about characters, user.

looks like some pedo stuff.
You want a game that lets you capture little girls and train them?
Then make them fight each other?

I said something about characters in my original posts, mainly that they're mostly uninnovative anime stereotypes.

I don't know about that user but I do.

The same thing that happens to innovation in every other industry. Eventually, methods used to beat competitors drive down the overall perceived value of products industry-wide, such that the overall rate profit for a particular sum of investment is always going down. Larger and larger projects are needed to sustain the same kind of profits as before. And the more expensive the project, the less risk people want to take.

I need to capture a wider audience. How can we make this more accessible to a casual audience?
This also needs to appeal to a more dedicated consumer base, such as the e-sports community.

Unless you have a marketing beast behind you like Blizzard, you don't choose the e-sports community, they choose you. But normally, the "easy to get into hard to master" rule applies for the e-sports crowd.

Put ads in the commercial breaks of the big bang theory episodes.
Advertise on reddit e-sports communities.

I remember some braindead retards saying innovative games or games that are ground breaking in some aspect like graphics are a "disservice" for gaming because they make everyone standards higher and they cant enjoy all the generic-mediocre shit anymore.

Some people deserve killing.

The bad way to go about this is make a game about cutesy living ships you "capture" and shoot the shit out of other living ships, so you can "upgrade" it.

None of those are JRPGs

I want to grab whoever said that and hit them to the back of the neck with a blunt object.

I can't believe you're this fucking retarded, holy shit.
Amazing
Take the brown pill lad

I came here to laugh at you.

This is the pinnacle of gaming and innovation, if you don't agree then you're a shill.

For some reason I can't find the source, care to help me out?

Game sucks.

Because cinematic games are the big money maker, innovation doesn't need to happen to make a lot of money.All you need is to have it look good and cool. There's no reason to innovate anything when all the most profitable games are corridor theme park shooters. Why innovate AI when enemies only exist to get mowed down and make you feel awesome? Why work on making thousands of enemies active at once, when you only need enough to pretend you're in a warzone, rather than actually being in one? Why innovate special enemy types when you can just make it a heavily scripted even instead?

It and Academy still have my favourite combat system ever. I love the weird authenticity that it has in the sense that every fight can last either minutes or seconds depending on what you and your opponent do. Throwing all the force powers into it on top of the saber combat and acrobatics just makes it even better.

you are wrong, and don't know shit about video games. how does that make you feel?

...

the game's great but you faggots drool over it way too much

you are falling for a false flag tbh

Dark Souls 3 and Persona 5 are both blatant JRPGs. What are you people smoking?

The downside is that it looks fucking terrible. The combat is basically what you would get if you were to "fight" with string puppets.

yeah it's like a pathetic meme game like sumotori dreams. It's so "zany xD" that it's bound to make for a terrible game. I'm baffled that anyone could praise it, but looking at what else they praise I'm not surprised.

games need mechanics with predictable outcomes, otherwise they become toys.

i already knew it was bait but there were fags in the Nier threads that would spout that unironically.

no, there weren't. Those are also false flags.

There is also the phenomenon that people judge the quality of a potential release based off their last release. There is this underlying assumption that the quality and production of the last game can be superimposed on to the next one. Of course this goes both ways, an audience burned by a bad game will not see the next game being potentially good or may even write it off and not bother until word of mouth after release spreads.
The interesting thing is this seems to fly right over Marketer's heads, since the last game was already bought they have no reason to believe a bad game that has actually put a very significant black mark on them is noticed until it's too late.

We are really blessed to be in a time when someone has to explain paragraphs and text structure, hopefully it will just pass and a new meme will be the cool thing to post on nu/v/.

Money.
Why innovate when you could just copy and paste and shovel it out the door faster for shekels ?

Reddit has room temperature IQ, user, it'll pass once there's so much text they can't be bothered reading.

Pay fucking attention you simp. You sound like the consumer this guy is complaining about

Are you quite sure about that? Getting stoned and being able to cook for yourself is great. Fuck bagged munchies. Sage for offtopic

Holy shit will you faggots please stop posting? Everyone in this thread with the slightest of knowledge about this stuff wants to fucking murder you.

Making quality assets and textures is easier than ever before.
You're a huge retard. Take a look at embed. That's photoscanned assets running in real time on UE4 on PC.
Best part: your average mid-range computer could run this in a full game world with assets of similar quality easily with 60fps at 1920x1080 as long as the devs focused on the PC release and actually got arsed enough to optimize it a bit.
It costs a camera, a 500-600$ computer and money for drinks or pizza.
You're a huge autist. You can photoscan dozens of assets per day and have them all fixed and optimized.

The reason Triple A games cost so much is because they have to pay the devs 75K each per year and throw a few millions on marketing and overrated actors. An indie studio on the other hand can work for free for as long as possible and outsource if needed.
Because the majority of indie studios consist of autistic 19 year olds who just got into game design and don't know jackshit. They're going for projects too big for them to handle. (Open world, RPGs, etc).

ebin

Good tread OP, but fucking hell, fucking absolute disaster of goddamn, not seeing the good in the vortex of horrible mess of shit.

What I mean to say is that there are more good games than ever before in the history of digital entertainment are made, and they are accessible to almost all of humanity. We live in a weird parallelelel-universe where games are actually a thing. Big business sure, but handled like the early 2000 movie budjets, 'n shit. It's unreal. So its a fluctuating high-risk enviroment.
Then a few big marketeers come out: They buy everything gamedev related in 20 years. Rest is history. And thus, boring games.

Man, you're fucking clueless.

Really don't know what to say but git gud, if you find it that horribly chaotic you can't have gotten completely over the initial bump of getting used to the combat system. It's not perfect but it's refined enough at this point that it only becomes QWOP tier when characters collide directly. Bum around in practice mode till you have a decent grasp of it, if you jump right into the main dungeon mode while sucking it's just frustrating. Another tip is if you'e fighting in the dark, drop your torch on the ground to illuminate the fight instead of using it as a shield or weapon (the latter is a huge no-no).

Soon as you get a sword you can lunge attack to oneshot or at least knockdown and then finish off the lightly armored ghouls on the first 3 levels, a 2H axe to clobber them with works too. After that you want a 2H mace or warhammer to deal with the armored enemies on the last levels.

That's not it. There's still programming talent in the industry, it's just that nobody's given an opportunity to shine because people keep pushing standardised frameworks and libraries to work with instead of creating engines.

The first definition is the right one, and I put emphasis on intended to be contemplated or appreciated as beautiful.
All it takes for something to be art is for its author to decide that he'll create something that's to be appreciated for its beauty. Nothing more. Art is not a pretentious concept at all.

No he means the one where he gets chased by an ogre, and then trips over a metal bowl. I don't have it though.

I'm 90% certain that is exactly what the Moemon romhack is.

I only posted a single fucking example you huge autist.
Go fuck yourself with a bayonet. Indie autists waste hundreds of hours on making models from fucking scratch rather than quickly scanning a miniature or something. Then they attempt to make shitty textures using outdated programs and methods, rather than getting some proper license on the better ones. Then they go whine like little bitches on websites about how muh game design is difficult and how graphics cost millions.
It's one of the most fucking basic things you need to know you fucking autist. It's part of the clean-up and optimization process that I mentioned in my previous post.
Fuck off back to making shitty walking simulators with flat textures and shotty assets bought straight out of the community market.

Innovation costs (((investors))) too many shekels and requires love, focus and competence (aka autism) by developers. The former will never be utilized, and the latter can no longer be found in the vidya industry because agendas and affirmative action quotas need to be fufilled. And it angers me that this problem will never EVER be solved until all the kikes and their greedy/retarded goyim puppets are eliminated.

In what way is this game even remotely close to being innovative? Innovative in making games slow paces and shitty? Unless you were to exploit the game its really fucking slow and annoying

Mcfucking kill yourself

You don't know slow and annoying until you touch morrowind.

Sounds like an average Holla Forums user's hypothetical first sexual experience.

Nigger the early 360 games looked like shit, Halo 3 to 4 and other games that look incredible on it are the result of the better part of a decade of optimizing games specifically for that hardware.

And where would someone get this miniature that is supposedly more detailed than a hand made model?

my theory is it died when all the former execs from the movie industry migrated over to games because it was starting to post annual profits far in excess of movie industry. These types of people are hungry for money only and won't let devs take risks. Since they call all the shots now thats how it is.

That's pretty much why Watch_Dogs 2 flopped.

From any place that sells miniatures, dipshit

Huge budgets and heavy investments mean developers have to play it safe. All the innovations these days come from the non-shitty indie studios.

Casuals and normalfags are exceptionally easy to please and even easier to separate from their money. Big ad budget sells more games than a good game so why would publishers waste money on development when an aggressive ad campaign works better? Even if a casual feels like they got burned by a game they'll forget just as fast as the next yearly title is released.

Those who enable this behavior must be punished.

I will never understand why people do this.

because they're providing a service and those servers to let me do party chat are expensive :^)

Good games don't sell.

why do that when you connect for free on PC? :3

But think about those poor Multi Billion dollar Multinational companies.
They're always thinking about us

I really like this thread, bumping

Reminds me of Dead Space.

Persona 5 is the only JRPG on that list and its the same fucking shit every JRPG is.
Utter trash

I got innovative game designs but I'm a programmer, and I can't afford good art.

For a game to sell it doesn't have to be good, it has to look good.
Because people judge games based on trailers(which usually have nothing to do with the game) and videos.

genetics are a determination of intelligence, only a dumb nigger could say this

I've read rumors that he was excluded from Wallstreet due to "unethical" acts, I could be wrong.

It does, however, seem to align with how Bethesda and ZeniMax media's daughter companies have been operating, though.

Lol youre the real dipshit if you think that.

And yet we blame Todd for everything.

Todd lies but I believe he legitimatily wants to make a good game.

Maybe that's just another lie.

Women in the workforce. Allowing women any sort of creative roll in the field.