Smash Bros Mother Fucker

yes its a fighting game. is anyone going to come in and say adom is not a roguelike because you dont have to play a rogue and can go back up stairs?

But user if everyone is autistic then nobody is autistic.

Are you kidding me?
Smash is hilarious, it's just a mario party minigame the fact autists think it's a legit fighting game is outright insane

I despise fighting games, frankly, yet can still have fun with Smash, due to items. What, you think that everyone has to throw a hissy fit if they lost because of "unfair reasons"? No, who the fuck gives a shit.

Next you'll tell me that the frying pan/bowl item in Snowboard Kids is bullshit. Yes, it's the most imbecilic item I've ever seen, if someone gets two of them, you can go from last to first in ten seconds. But that only matters if you're trying to do this "competitively", rather than for pure fun.

This, frankly.

It's as much Fighting Game as Power Stone is. I don't care if they are or aren't, I'll still play them for fun or to compete. [spoiler]Unless it's Brawl or Tr4sh.[/spoiler]**

It doesn't have lifebars, the only way to defeat an opponent is to throw him out of the stage. It's a party game game because it plays just like the sumo minigames that have existed since the nes with more moves thrown in.

It is a party fighting game

Sumo isn't fighting?

Is the Mario Kart Battle mode a racing game

It is a fighting game because players have turned it into one, and it gets shown at EVO,

Is Catherine a fighting game too, then?

Sumo games are party games, you have one in pokemon HGSS for example. You are probably merely pretending, but they are called sumo games because of how scoring works, they don't have to be related with the sport at all.

I suppose so, they are fighting one another to get to the top.

no because theres no health bars

I like calling it a fighting game because of how it triggers fighting game fans. On the other hand the competitive smash scene are some of the biggest bunch of faggots ever.

Honestly I'm not really sure why it matters. Its not like fighting games are some sacred untouchable genre.

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From having played Smash more this past year with friends far more than I would ever have liked to:

It's not a fighting game. For starters, a true fighting game should be directed between two players to move to the same established goal, whereas the design for Smash (no rounds, different degrees to "kill", etc.) does not cater to that. You can argue that some fighting games have it similar by adding different amounts of health to certain characters, but this is generally balanced out in other ways (such as Crimson Akiha in Melty; almost half as much health as the toughest character in game, but in the right hands can deliver an unbeatable combo-lock and just outright win the game). Further, it's not variable. In Smash, a person on any final destination map might be fucked at 120% while he can go well past 300% if he finds a good hiding hole on Temple.

Further, while you can just go straight final destination, and you can turn off items, this is you modifying the game to suit that purpose. You can turn on Skyrim and spend the entire game chopping logs and selling them to NPCs, and there are autists who do that. But the game is a (shitty) RPG, and not a lumberjack simulator. No matter how much you ignore the rest of the game to focus on one small fraction of it, that does not modify the genre of the game.

Also, while it depends on the individual characters to some degree, Smash does not orient itself towards powerful combat play. There's also the fact that, while you have the distinction between the various forms of A and B attacks, you don't have the light-medium-heavy set typical of fighting games. I may be mistaken here, but no character I played had a 90 or 180 or anything of that sort either.

With the exception of characters like Little Mac, and even that's stretching, there's also no meter mechanics of any kind to take into account, or any sort of way to consider the charging of ultimate attacks. All you get is the Smash Ball, which comes in the form of an item. The Final Smash power levels also fluctuate heavily, so you get some that are great, but others which can be nearly useless half of the time - or can miss, etc. It's a very different way of going about things.

That's all not to say that it's not fun, and I've honestly probably logged more hours into it than I have any actual fighting game because I can't find anyone else to play with except my roommate, but the feel of the game is far too different to compare them. Consider this - if you pick up any MMO, you can tell it's part of the MMO genre. Pick up Smash and play it without any modifications - base game, large group - does it feel like a fighting game?

No, it feels more like a cross between a platformer and a beat 'em up (Hack & Slash for sword wielding characters).

if people call powerstone a fighting game I would be fine with smash getting called fighting game
I just dunno if that's the case

Who the fuck edited this and ruined it? The original is better.

people want it to be sacred and its silly. to hell with them. theres phrases like metroidvania and roguelike to help describe niches in otherwise broad genres (platformer, rpg) and theyre still considered platformers and rpgs, but even if smash bros were to adopt a subgenre title like that some autists would still be hurt feelings that its categorized as a fighting game.

Well, I'd argue that yes, it is a fighting game. And it can't really be defined as much else.

Although the terms and conditions are different, many of the things inherent to fighting games still apply to Smash. There are combos, mixups, 50/50s, spacing, zoning, footsies and mindgames. Once you have an idea of what's going on it becomes very exciting to watch.

20XX is a lie
The Melee community is infested with a likeminded clique like all communities
John Madden

It's a fighting game because the characters fight each other.
It's competitive because the meta is deep enough to allow it, albeit being less deep than other fighting games.
It's also part of the fighting game community (EVO showcases it, etc)

Technically speaking, it would be considered an arena fighting game

Your post is subjective.
The game is a fighting game if you look at it objectively.Period. Yes, it differs from the formula and it can also be a casual or party game, but just because it encompasses these features does not mean it is not considered a fighting game.

It can be casual, it can be party, but its still a game where characters fight each other, with a level of strategy, a balanced roster (except melee), a level of meta, and the FGC competitive scene welcoming it,ergo accepting it as fighter.

Honestly, you could even argue even though it is different it also encompasses different aspects such as positioning in a different way, but for the same fighting purpose.
Just because its different doesn't mean it is the same genre. Again, its technical name if arena brawler fighting game, but its still under the fighting game family tree.
Of course its different. Same with tekken vs street fighter. same with MK4 and other MK. Doesnt mean MK4 is not an MK. Doesnt mean Smash is not a game where characters fight each other with different movesets and an approaching strategy. You need to see it at a simpler level.

It is NOT the same genre*

This thread cannot be saved
It will have the FGC fags come in
It will have the Melee fags come in
It have the Waifu fags come in

This thread is already going to be a lost cause so OP is wasting his time.

it's a fighting game, but not a conventional one.

Lemme ask you something, have you ever considered that Smash 64 and Melee are held at a higher standars to Brawl and Sm4sh because they're better games? no one gives a shit about esports, the fact is that both brawl and sm4sh not only take control away from the player, but items have even worse balance than the roster in Melee. If you're gonna say both brawl amd sm4sh are better than 64 and Melee then you have no idea what you're talking about and should go back to summer school.

whats it like never having fun?

What items can kill you in one hit? Define OP?

I play competitive smash and I prefer Sm4sh to Melee, simply because you can't buffer inputs effectively in Melee. It took me a long time to figure out exactly what it was that I liked Sm4sh better for, and that's pretty much it. I feel like being able to buffer inputs not only lowers the skill floor, but it raises the skill ceiling for more people. Sure, there's no light shield, or wavedashing, but there are new control options, like disabling tap-jump, or the entire bidou scheme. The technical depth of specific aspects are gone, but new ones replaced them. There's a lot of interesting changes that I legitimately think improve the experience.
Also it was a mistake to not try to make custom moves part of the meta for competitive play. They gave up on the idea way too quickly. There are really interesting things you can do with pac-man if customs are allowed.

Both games are great though.

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Project M was shit and all the maps were ported to vanilla brawl despite the attempts at copy protection in the mod files.

Honestly, I could never enjoy no-item play in these games, because I don't play fightan in general. So hey, the friend who wasted every single weekend of his childhood playing smash is going to win every time, and i have no reason to play the fucking game since i'll never be able to compete. Items give me a reason to play the game, and have fun with it.

Smash is perfect for casual play, frankly, and I love it for that. It's why I never bother with anything "serious".
I'm sorry I don't have hundreds of hours to perfect L cancelling/wave dashing/whatever other bullshit you need to stand a chance at Melee.

No. Sakurai developed it as a party game, and the game's base settings (just go into vs mode, pick a character, pick a random stage) include items and stages with hazards. It'd be like playing Mortal Kombat and having the default vs mode be Test Your Luck. Note that there is nothing wrong with Smash not being a fighting game. Plenty of games not geared for competitive play have dedicated communities, and if they can derive enjoyment from playing Melee or tr4sh, more power to them because God knows I can't.

The problem is that the label of fighting game carries connotations which lend a given game the atmosphere of importance, or at least not irrelevance. It's this desperate, continual plea for attention and "important status," whatever that means, which makes the majority of the Smash community cancer. I tried to get into Melee for a bit last year, and most of the people I met were pretty nice dudes; however, they are part of the same community which booed Guilty Gear top 8 during CEO last year. You can talk as much shit as you want about GG/BB/AH fans being insufferable weebs, but those communities don't fucking boo other games for having the unmitigated temerity to BE ON THE STAGE.

Melee (tr4sh is awful, who are we kidding) is a game best played at a friendly level and with little money on the line. Once you start sponsoring players with life-changing money, they can't really justify picking Mario and going 1-2 in bracket.

Doubles is good clean fun, though. I think it'd be best for the scene if that format became the default since it's truer to the chaos of the developer's vision, but still strategic and technical enough to be interesting as a spectator.

What?

ah jeeze tourneyfags, why do they do these things

I can ask the same of you. the reason Smash 64 and Melee are held to such high regard is because the games are more fun because you had control of the situation. with Brawl and Sm4sh they're just crappier versions of Melee with no real innovation in the mechanics of the games, just more of everything except good gameplay.

I bet you also prefer how mario moves in 3D land to 64

I like neither.

I don't care about competitiveness, I play these games casually. and I'm saying that the series hasn't progressed since Melee

I see through your bait, (((ruseman)))

This is whar I've been trying to tell people for fucking years but no one listens.
The rest of your post is dead wrong though. Melee was good a long time ago, but it's stale now. It's a solved game.

It's not bait, I'm sorry to inform you, I am being serious here.

What the fuck are you talking about?
No one likes 64, and people regard Melee as unplayable without arbitrary "this character is op, this stage is unfair" rules.
In other words, Melee is only good if you play it in one specific way, utilizing barely 5% of the game's content.

Well in general Sm4sh has more options than melee did, more characters, stages, modes. From a casual standpoint what would have made the game better (or at least a step up from Melee) to you? I felt like the things removed, or reworked, were negligible usually, and the things added were great.

So what are the chances of Smash 4 being to port over to the switch and will have all of the content of both the 3DS & Wii U version plus more bonus content that's exclusive to the Switch version?

Oh please, 100%. You kidding me?

Depends? does Nintendo like money? Will it give them opportunities to make more Amiibo?

Depends on if Mashed Potato Sammer Guy feels like getting his team on it.

We have 5+ extra buttons on the controller and Sakurai can't even add an extra button for Transformations, new moves or other techniques. Not to mention most of the WiiU stages suck and that new characters are extremely formulaic.

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Well, if I had to be technical, I don't know anyone that earnestly likes melee.

your opinion is irrelevant

Wii u adapter or mayflash both works flawlessly

It is.
The only reason people care about it is community cliques.

Transformations were silly. Sheik was the only good part of Zelda, and in general other characters with more than one version should just be separate characters. An additional set of moves would likely go against the core principles of the design, pick up and play. I personally would love that, but I can assure you most people that like the game currently would not.
Some of the WiiU stages were great though, every smash has terrible stages. Like, yeah, the wrecking crew map was bad, but the Skyloft map was great for example. Whuhu Island was also pretty good. The characters aren't terribly uninspired if I'm being honest also. Little Mac being a ground fighter in a game mostly about juggling was an interesting concept, and his ko punch being brought over was charming. Pac Man plays with the stage itself, and has interesting mobility moves. Robin has a long-range focus, with attacks that deplete as you use them. All the new characters had something interesting honestly, apart from Lucina probably.

I more meant that there are custom control schemes, custom moves, custom stats you can apply, an in-depth stage creator, randomized challenges, online play with separate stat trackers, a new board-game mode (kinda shit, but it's there), a revised classic mode, co-op challenge mode, etc.
Yeah, there wasn't a new button used, but the game itself was refined in interesting ways that a lot of people just gloss over.

Lemme correct you on something, I'm not saying an entirely new combat button, but rather a utility button for things like Transformations, charging, style switching, an aditional special move aka FLUUD, etc

Huh, that's a fascinating concept honestly. So instead of one of the jump binds, you have a button for your character's 'unique' aspect, freeing up one additional input on the b-move list? Or did you mean a set of 'utility' moves on a new button, so A and B are specifically combat-focused?

melee is held in high regard solely because reliably pulling off glitches make people feel special

Doubles is hardly solved. Double fox is a very strong team but synergy with weirder characters/combinations is totally workable.

Good physics, faster movement, edge cancelling, downwards attacks that actually send people downwards. The game would be great to watch if you were allowed the least bit of creativity when it came to combos; the lack of edge cancelling is such an arbitrary restriction on the game.

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the former, basically having the utility functions reassigned to one of the jump buttons or the extra shoulder button

You seem to be citing advanced tactics that would improve the game for competitive players, or people that want to get more into the game. I don't think casual players would enjoy those things.

Alright, well, then I absolutely agree that that change would improve the game for all people. That would be really cool, and probably make each character feel more unique, and probably wouldn't confuse new players.
Though, I don't think the ways the game has changed since Melee was bad, or stale. But at least I can see the direction you wanted the game to go now.

get mayflash, it's cheaper. It also has the ability to switch to dinput mode for other games like rivals of aether or whatever other games.

You must not talk to a lot of casual players, despite obviously being ass yourself. I've known plenty of casual players and they like Melee the most because it's faster and more kinetic. Brawl is floaty garbage, and tr4sh, although less floaty, is still garbage because moves barely do any hitstun.

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nobody plays with items on and time. nobody does coin matches, nobody does this shit. even as a lil kid i preferred playing the game without stupidd shit happening. and getting better is fun.

plus fox only final destination is a joke because nobody does that, nigger. fox isn't good on FD, and there are never rules in any online or offline match that involves telling someone to play fox instead of their main.

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then why even make the game tell us who won or lost? Theoretically, having smash force every match to become a tie would be just as fun as having a winner or loser.

Nigga, getting better at a game, learning new ways to play a character, learning advanced techniques, fighting an uphill battle as ganon and winning because you practiced longer is BY FAR the best feeling of fun i've had in any game.

The feeling of self improvement triumphs over simple flashing colors on the screen, which is essentially 8 player smash with items.

You're talking about a subset of a larger community. Making the game faster and more difficult to land moves might be good for some, but most casual players like that you can line up hits easier, and that they don't die if the other player hits a string early in their stock. Don't lash out, and think about the changes you're talking about. Yeah, I agree they would make the game better. But better doesn't mean more accessible. A faster more confusing game would turn people off if they're just looking to play something at a party.
A lot of the more casual players I talked to like Brawl the most as a result of the floaty nature. Some like smash 64 the most because there's like 2 moves you can do, and it's easy to remember them. Your subset of players doesn't represent the whole of the playerbase.

but you're wrong. It's a game that you can get good at while also being able to play any character on the roster without having a MAJOR disadvantage because the game is more balanced.

I CAN PLAY KIRBY. SHIT.

It has all the content of brawl, new characters, fun stages for both comp and casual games, items are still there if that's your thing, there's new modes, new AI, more skins for each character, preservation of advanced techniques that allow a higher skill ceiling, and much more.

There's no reason to dislike it other than to attempt to be different.

Over 80% of Brawl tournament matches involve a Meta Knight player. He was so OP that he was actually banned from the Unity circuit. 64 and 4 are probably the most balanced, but 4 is largely underdeveloped.

Reminder that Brawl sold only 5 million more units than Melee despite the Wii having well over 10 times the install base of the Gamecube. Nearly everyone who owned a Gamecube had Melee at some point. Combined between both 3DS and Wii U Sm4sh has sold less units lifetime than Brawl as of March 2017.

You're a fucking retard. Doesn't matter what you think of the games, tier lists are always going to exist because different characters are always going to have general advantages or disadvantages compared to the rest of the cast.

It's not a fighting game, in fighting games you fight until someone is ko'ed or dead, smash Bros is just about cowardly pushing your opponent to a pit, where he doesn't die or get ko'ed.

There's a difference between not being quite as good and never, ever standing a shot because the skill gap between you and someone is incomparable.

Where, pray tell, is the fun in getting repeatedly slaughtered for seven hundred matches without being given a single shot to compete.
And guess what? I can spend those seven hundred matches "getting good", but by then, the cunt that was kicking my ass every time has perfected [insert frame perfect combo that i will never comprehend] and, once again, i can never stand a chance.

It's like a five year old with a football being put in an NBA court. You might see the fun in that, but I don't. I don't see the fun in investing years into a game that I will never be adequate enough at.

Irrelevant.
90% of the roster was banned from most of these tournaments.

How does that negate anything I said? Casuals bought the game that was floaty the most of any of the games.

So you're telling me the Black Plauge wasnt there(TKBreezy and EE?
BOI

I see, so you're retarded.

13% of Wii owners had Brawl. 33% of Gamecube owners had Melee. That's a big fucking difference. Not only that, but Brawl was being manufactured and sold up until 2015 for a total of 7 years, whereas Melee's production ceased in 2004 after 3 years. All of my ultra-casual friends prefer Melee because it feels better to control your character.

There isn't a single community out there that doesn't argue this death of the author bullshit more than the Smash community.
The creator himself said that if you're looking for strategy or competitiveness that you should play a real fighting game. At what point is Smash gonna be considered a real time strategy game, because fuck it why not?
The only reason that it's part of the FGC is because the Smash community wanted to be, and it brings in money. Just look at the overlap between games at a tournament. You'll see people entering SF, Tekken, MK, and GG, and the Smash players only enter Smash games.

Yeah but everyone and their fucking mom bought a Wii, those statistics are inflated by people who bought a Wii then just got like, Wii Party and never bought jack shit else. I'd bet that everyone that bought Melee, probably 70% of those people bought Brawl, and the rest of the sales were new people.
These statistics you're citing is comparing apples to oranges because of the overwhelming popularity of the Wii. Plus purchase rates for a game drop severely after just a few months anyway, so how long after it was made it was still being printed barely matters.

Yeah, and BotW has a 100%+ attach rate to the Switch, does it make it the best Zelda game to date?

IT TOTALLY IS MY FELLOW NINTENDRONE, NOT ONLY IT IS A FIGHTING GAME, IT IS THE MOST SKILL DEMANDING AND COMPLEX FIGHTING GAME EVER MADE. THAT'S WHY THERE ARE EVO TOURNAMENTS FOR SSB.
HERE ARE SOME OTHER FIGHTING GAMES (NOT NEARLY AS GOOD).

PS:IM REALLY ENJOYING THIS FORUM, LOTS OF LIKE MINDED USERS.

That has jack shit to do with what I was saying. My point was that making the game more casual did nothing in terms of boosting sales. People bought Melee because they either liked 64 or played Melee at a friend's house and then bought it. People bought Brawl because they liked Melee and because of the series reputation. Smash 4 sold less than Brawl despite continuing the casual trend by removing ledge hogging and adding more shitty gimmick stages. The games lose nothing by having the competitive potential Melee has since casual players are likely to never come into contact with it anyway.

and how many more wii owners are there than gamecube owners?
you discount how many people bought the wii just for stuff like just dance and wii sports.
everyone who bought a wii that wasnt specifically into that bought brawl. every single one.

Smash 4 was more like Melee than Brawl. They didn't just flat out remove ledge hogging, it was replaced with replacing them, which puts your opponent into a bad position. You can ledge trump into a confirm kill, which requires you to line up an additional hit, not just get on the ledge. It makes it possible to get back if you get hogged, but also puts you in a bad spot. Plus you lose your I-frames for the next time you grab ledge if you get trumped. The stages in Melee were gimmicky too, what are you even saying? What, pokefloats was totally not gimmicky?
Smash 4 has tons of more advanced mechanics than Brawl, but sold worse.

Brawl sold more than Melee in numbers alone.
Smash 4 on WiiU had an attach rate of 39%, bigger attach rate than Melee and the GC.

No matter which way you look at it, no matter which measure you use, it boosted sales.

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Fucking kill this meme please.

No it's a Party Game. Couldn't have really said it better myself, great post, user.

Dr. Mario is so fucking underrated, along side with Wario.

Mario Kart 8 online is on the Bullshit section of gaming.

Why smash comics are always the unfunniest?

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Yes, it just doesn't feel like any other fighting game on the market excluding obvious ripoffs. All I got from your wall post is that it's not a fighting game because it doesn't follow tourney rules.
Correct. The core mechanic in Skyrim is to venture and follow the story at your own pace (if you choose to follow the story at all). Adding lumberjack physics into the game doesn't make it not an RPG. The core mechanic behind Smash Bros is to beat the shit out of one another. Adding platforming physics to the game doesn't make it not a fighting game.

How am I supposed to go pro when Nintendo won't support the melee community? I can't afford to send my wife's son to private school.

Super Smash Bros. Melee for the Nintendo GameCube is the best fighting game of all time.

Boy, around these parts we sage when we shitpost.

I don't see that happening. Too much for an autistic manchild.

It isn't shitposting, m8. I mean, I'm being hyperbolic and sarcastic, but the argument stands: If SSB is a fighting game, are those others also fighting? If not: why?

NO, it is NOT a fighting game. It does NOT have any core mechanics representing a traditional fighter. And Sakurai himself said its not a fighting game. He called it a "Multiplayer Action Game" which honestly sounds more appropriate

Honestly, why the fuck do people even care so much wither or not its a fighting game? Does it somehow make it less of a game because its not a fighting game? How so? Are racing games considered any less of a game because they aren't fighting games? Of course not. Smash is still a decent multiplayer game. You autists need to get over semantics

It has been years since i've played smash melee, but i remember there being a mode in which everyone had 100% health and damage would reduce that number till one dies at 0%
It was funny to see their corpses still lay there till one would win. Must say, i enjoyed it much more that way than striking one of the map.

If he keeps playing with you, then yeah, you will, because you are improving far quicker than him. You don't learn much when you win, and you don't learn much when you fight a scrub. Being a scrub isn't bad, and when you lose to him with dignity and you continue to hold the "im gonna learn" mindset, you'll still have fun playing.

Assuming the player is actually really good, he won't mock you for losing unless you attack him first, which shouldn't happen if you are playing to learn.

The fun comes in the improvement factor, you seem to only get a sense of fun when you see "you win" on the screen. If you found enjoyment in learning, and took friendly matches less seriously, then maybe you would have fun.

It's because of this learning mindset that people who ACTUALLY play the game, unlike you, like to play with all different kinds of people. They all have different mains, different playstyles, different skill levels, different TECH skill level (which is different), and more.

People who play the game competitively are having fun, they aren't being forced to play or anything. And the best players in the world started from nothing, just like you. And it's never too late to take the game seriously, and respect the game that the developers worked hard to make at a deeper level. You don't necessarily have to have been playing since 2002 to be good at the game at a tournament level. You seem to think of getting good at a game as an xp bar that fills up in your brain, it's not.

Why can't we just call it a platform fighter? It's obviously not a traditional fighter and this term is used to describe fighting games that are like Smash. We don't have this same debate for Mario Kart, which people have no problem calling a kart racer.

All multiplayer games are inherently competitive, Your sole objective is to win.

Melee is much worse than brawl
Brawl has Meta Knight, yes, but the rest of the cast outside of the low tiers can win a tourney. Unlike low tiers in melee.
Smash 4 is the most balanced of all the game's rosters.

Are you daft?

Wrong post

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When did a low tier ever win a Brawl national?

Regardless, here's a fun low tier vs. high tier match. The grab release idea from Ally is brilliant, but doesn't pay off in the end.

Why do so many people who know nothing about smash like to voice their opinions on it?

I'll post this one then.
Mango getting his shit together and playing with Mario brings me a smile

How so?

Roster balance-wise, yes.

To elaborate:
Melee has a a circle of characters that are exhuberantly better than the rest of the cast with a clear power disparity (Fox, Shiek, Peach, Marth) with a lesser tier also being dominant (jigglypuff, Falco, wobbles) and the meme choices that are legit (c. falcon)

Outside of that one guy being really good at Luigi and that one nip very good at yoshi, the rest of the cast does not hold a candle to these two tiers.

In Brawl, at least the mid-tier characters can put up a fight. Neither game is as balanced as Smash 4. Nevertheless, Brawl is considered a more balanced game roster-wise, not even taking into account Brawl's higher number of characters for its roster.
Again, we're talking roster balance, not the main gameplay aspects/which has game has a more fluid gameplay.

I rather hear differing point of views which i disagree upon backed by facts than reddit-tier shitposting (rethorical question to the audience instead of addressing the user head-on) without any rebuke or counter-argument to back up one's own view.

He's a fucker on trash 4, but fucking sucks on Brawl.

Because not everyone is into the fan fueled autism that is competitive Smash. Some people just play the game as Sausage Jumbo Suplex Spy intended it to be played.

The achievements are complete bullshit.

Because fightingfags are unfunny

DO YA LIKE DA ZONE OUT FIGHTAN GAME?

The best part is they add their own fucking trademark, photoshops are hard work.

you're right about yoshi, and that'd apply to pikachu as well, but samus and luigi are both mid-tier and played a lot by people.
And that's more due to the fact that both yoshi and pikachu are very technical and complicated to play well. There's a high skill barrier for those characters with not a lot of reward like fox.
Also, falco pretty top-tier. He's actually really good for competitive play if your not fighting "top-tier" players.

And you'd need to point to examples of people playing lower tier characters commonly in brawl. Because from my perspective, brawl seems to have the same number of "viable characters" (despite having a higher number of characters) and meta knight seems way more broken in brawl compared to fox in melee (and not as high of a sill barrier compared to fox). I don't know as much about brawl as I do melee so I might be wrong on this.

Way to sound even more uninformed. Melee has 4 top tiers (Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth) that are decidedly the best, a next tier of high tier characters below them that can still compete (Puff, Peach, Falcon, Samus, Pikachu, ICs), and mid tiers that aren't seen in the highest level of play but are still viable up to say top 16 (Ganondorf, Doc, Luigi, Yoshi). At least half the cast in Melee is viable in competition. Even below that, many of the other characters are still fundamentals of the game. You'll see M2K break out his Pichu every now and again or Mango go Mario for shits and giggles in early bracket because even with the limitations of the characters their skill is still the major deciding factor.

In Brawl you have 1 character who is completely dominates the entire cast (MK), 4 characters below him that dominate nearly everyone below them too (Diddy, Olimar, ICs, Snake), 8 or so high tier characters that are still viable but absent from highest level of play (TLink, ZSS, Pikachu, Wario, Marth, Falco, Lucario, Dedede). Everyone below drops off exponentially, with some higher characters being barely viable (Fox, Peach) and the lowest of them being pathetically useless (Link, Dorf, Falcon). You'll rarely see a top player break out their Ganondorf even in early bracket because the power gap between characters is just so much higher and the fundamentals are far less stronger that even your dime-a-dozen MK or Snake knows how to exploit his character's power enough to utterly suffocate characters below them, regardless of gap in player skill. The only time I recall someone in recent memory picking low tiers in Brawl was at Smash Con when ESAM conceded to M2K at Smash Con by breaking out Samus and Bowser in GF.

Brawl is just far more unbalanced, with maybe a third of its cast being viable with majority of the rest being pure fodder, while in Melee at least half the cast is viable and even the lowest tier of characters aren't completely useless. This because what holds up the characters at the top in Melee are less so the character-specific gimmicks but how they are supported by the fundamentals of the game, while in Brawl the gameplay is far less balanced and the fundementals so weak that what brings the top tier of characters up is how their gimmicks can just invalidate everyone else. So when I hear people say
in addition to
I really have to wonder how stringently they're assessing Melee and how fucking lenient they're being with Brawl to make retarded statements like this. Like do you only ever consider top 8s in Melee but look at top 64 for Brawl? Get the fuck outta here.

wow, you truly are a biased meleefag.

Melee has less tier rows than brawl, and that's not only because of having less characters in its roster. Its viable pool is smaller, while brawl's rows are slightly more diverse and low tier at least holding a candle to high tier, as seen in . Not crticiizing gameplay, just stating facts. Pretty sure melee's faster game and focus on fundamentals is also to blame for this, but again, it is intended by sakurai because he wanted casual audience to stand a chance. Not even making this up like you're projecting. It's what sakurai himself has stated many times. I have to wonder if are even looking at this objectively and not being fucking biased/subjective because muh melee. Get out of here.

I never stated Brawl was the better game. I stated Brawl has better roster balance than melee. Again, you're extrapolating it in an attempt to grasp counter-arguments.

I genuinely want to see some examples of low tiers in Brawl winning against Meta Knight.

I stated holding a candle, not winning against s tier broken MK.
There's a reason MK is banned from circuit.
You don't see Pichu getting stocks from Fox with a certain level of presence or threat to the point you need to approach cautiously.

Melee is widespread enough for there to be instances of just about any character taking stocks from Fox.

Come on, user. This video proves nothing. The Fox is having an easy time, too.

I didn't want to post gods but you asked for it.

You're delusional. Fox goes even with Marth and Falco and only has a slight advantage over Sheik. In fact, Sheik herself is greater counter against lower tiers than Fox or Falco, who can get 0-to-death by nearly all of the cast if they get the upper hand. Yeah, that's a big if, but they still have a slighter harder time winning in neutral against lower tiers unlike Sheik who can invalidates nearly everyone below her with her tilts and grab game.
You're really delusional. Captain Falcon and Samus are present in nearly every top 8, with Falcon going even against Marth and having a great combo game against Space Animals and Samus going even with the Fox and Falco as well. Pikachu is rarely seen but his most prominent player is a top ten player. Same goes for Peach and Puff too, who are definitely worse than the top tier of characters yet are represented by the two best players in the world.
No, Melee's gameplay is the reason why more low tier characters are viable because the game is tighter and its higher level play relies less on character gimmicks, unlike Brawl where everyone controls like ass (except MK) and its high tiers only get by because they can abuse the shit out of exploits.

I don't know, but I've seen a Mewtwo take stocks off of Sheik, and a Kirby that beat a Marth.

The falco is trash, user. But I can see the Pichu at its highest viability

Define Character gimmicks. You're being opinionated with your attempt at an objective approach.
The character's specials, moveset and specs are as equally fundamental as general physics of the game.
I understand where you're coming from but that does not mean you're correct. Yes, Brawl is slower-paced, but that doesn't mean it does not have any substance. The matches are longer and boring to watch but playing it still holds its own meta albeit very defensive in nature.
Not defending MK but you stated characters like MK being exploits.
MK doesn't have exploits, its just an overtuned character as intended, because Brawl was never intended to be competitive. And neither was Melee.

I thoroughly disagree. Tiers in Melee are decided solely by the strength of hitboxes and ending lag frames and general weight/speed/fall speed. That's it. In brawl, at least specials and character traits also add into the balance, giving character who have shit specs, Like ROB being big and floaty, a chance to be higher tier and have a competitive advantage due to its nice specials (laser, gyro). Same with Pac-man in Smash 4. I believe character traits added into the balance is adding another layer of complexity in design that allows more room for roster diversity and uniqueness in character pick. Melee suffers from so many clones because it lacks that layer.
Briefly put, there is nothing wrong with a character having unique traits that are well-done. Calling them gimmicks for your arguments sake is biased, hence calling you a meleefag. And I prefer Melee over Brawl myself, but not judging the game design fairly is being truly delusional.

And to conclude, the issue with Brawl is not the character traits being fleshed out. The issue with Brawl is that it became a slower paced game to pander to casuals and allow the casual player to have a chance to win, which is also palpable in Smash 4 albeit less. That's the issue with Brawl, not character-specific movesets or designs.

Two words: Transcendent Priority

Why do you care that people call it a fighting game?

as a smash player who goes to tournies, no. smash is not a fighting game. its a multiplayer action platformer. it doesn't follow the traditions of other fighting games like street fighter, tekken, marvel, etc. they may share similarities, but at it's core, smash is FAR from a traditional fighting game.
one may argue that its spawned it's own kind of genre, as seen in other games like brawlhalla and rivals of aether, which follow the same percent-based sumo style gameplay.

it's a sub-genre of fighters called Arena Brawlers
nevertheless, the premise is characters are fighting each other, ergo a fighter.
Just because game B is not similar to game A does not mean game B cannot have the same common ground as game A that defines the genre.

Tourneyfags want video games to be serious business and associating the fighting genre with Smash Bros would mean that the genre is associated with something kids like.

Never played any of those games so I wouldn't know and I only assume the 3rd pic is wrestling which would be a subgenre of fighting. If the core mechanic of the game is to beat the shit out of each other with your fists until you get a KO, then it's a fighting game. I'm just going to reiterate what's been said in the EVO thread by using DBZBT as an example.

Smash is a glorified game of King of the Castle.
For those who never played, king of the castle was when you can a surplus of people stood on a platform using any means available to toss all others off.
Pretty fun game, got banned a lot in school because schools are fucking gay.

Fucking this.

It's a party game.

Enjoy watching fox dittos on cell phone recordings

Good riddance, fuck Melee.

Smash 4 is way better than Melee, suck my ass you nerds.

Can't wait for Smash 5 to come out so you and all the other kids can pretend you never liked 4.

I don't see what's to hate about Smash 4. I mean sure it's not perfect, the hitstun issues I find really annoying since some characters can just mash a special out of a rapidfire jab. But it's still really fun and I'm happy that the skill gap isn't as high as it is in Melee. Melee is boring both as a spectator sport and a game to play, it's only fun if you're some kind of autist savant who beasts people with frame-perfect Jigglypuff rests. The rest of us don't like watching Fox vs. Marth over and over and over again, or having to only choose between those two. I want to see more Donkey Kong play in Melee, damn it. He's who I main. But it's something I almost never see.

Smash 4 has assloads more content and amazing guest characters that we never thought would grace a Smash game before, expanding the roster wider than has ever been. So content-wise it's objectively better. Variation-wise, it's also better. Every character has a place in the meta.

Look dawg, you sit there and say you can't see how the other side feels but you don't consider the other side feels the same way. To me, Melee is fun and great to watch, but Smash 4 feels like wading through gelatin in comparison and is a snorefest to watch. You say no one wants to see Fox and Marth(lol) but you think we all want to see Bayonetta and Zero Suit. Before you start greentexting me I haven't bothered with the game in over a year so I haven't seen the latest meta but there is not a single moment in smash 4 top 8 that has impressed me more than your standard melee top 8.

Yeah it's great that the top tiers got shuffled, but a better roster and balance don't make up for the options we've lost over the years. To me, the difference between Melee and Sm4sh is the difference between 3rd Strike and SF5.

This, holy fuck. This so hard.
I love Melee and brawl: Project M + mods, and 4 felt like such a god damn downgrade to me.

I'm gonna try to answer this in as non-smug and inflammatory way as possible.

The main two arguments that are ever brought up against Smash being a fighting game is that it doesn't play like other 2D fighting games and that it's a party game. None of these are really valid, I think.
First of all, sub-genres exist. Two games can belong to an umbrella genre and still be very different. For example, ARPGs and CRPGs may play nothing alike, but they both belong to the RPG genre. Need for Speed and Diddy Kong Racing play nothing alike, but they are both racing games. That might be a pretty convoluted way to explain it, but you get what I'm saying.
You can take the core element of a genre and add on new elements, creating a mixture of genres. That is what Smash Bros is. The core elements here are fighting and platforming, so the obvious answer would be that Smash Bros is a platform fighter or platformer/fighting game. It's not exclusive to either.

As for the party game thing, it's obvious that Smash Bros is popular at parties and it's easy to pick up and play for almost anyone. The natural counter-argument would be to ask What is a party game? and never have I once gotten a proper answer out of a person who claims this. Being easy to play, casual, non-committing etc are so broad that we might as well call every game either party or action, or something similar.
Smash Bros has this strange duality to it, where it can definitely be played as a free-for-all casual game, which is perfectly fine. That is what many people will say is the intended way to play, all items on max, any stage, any character. Embrace the chaos. But, I rarely see these people recognise the options to turn off items, play on stages without hazards, with a set amount of stocks etc. That is also the developer's intention. Why else would the option even exist? The fact that Sakurai backpedaled from Brawl's tripping mechanics and lower skill ceiling, as well as the inclusion of For Glory mode when going into Smash 4 is proof that there was more than casual play in mind during development.

My biggest gripe about the entire discussion is that just because Smash Bros isn't a pure fighting game, it is a bad game and can not be and should not be played competitively. After all, genres are just arbitrary labels we apply for things to make it easier to categorise and says nothing of its quality.

Melee and Melee-likes are fighters, I think. They have enough technicality and even use similar terminologies to fighters, so I think they count. I consider Smash to be kind of a "party fighter" where you can play it as a party game or go head on in a competition ala a fighter. It's a versatile series but sadly only Melee and Project M/Legacy XP have really lived up to the true potential of being both a party game and a fun fighter.

brawl minus is literally more fun and more balanced then project M

RIDLEY E3

YOU KNOW ITS HAPPENING

...

Honestly, Smash is a fighting game, but it's less of a traditional one and more-so a platform fighter. So it's a little from column A and B here. Don't really see the need to go full-on MUH SUPERIOR LIMB COMBAT like that one autist who kept plaguing halfchan fighting game threads over what is and isn't a fightan gaem.

Also, I'm more than ready for Smash teaser hopefully this E3 so we can begin the wild ride and yet another time Ridleyfags get BTFO for our amusement.

I'll just post this here.

Sflash has come a long way.
Falco is busted but otherwise it's fairly balanced.
Singeplayer modes are still trash.

Ahh yessir.

idgaf but no one has posted this pic yet

But user, those players suck because i say so, so your proof is invalid.

...

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I wasn't trying to prove anything. I saw a request for a low tier beating Meta Knight.
Also, Vermanubis isn't a no name unless you only follow Melee.

Karate Champ has better roster balance than 3rd Strike.

Here's Ally losing to Ganon if you're so picky.

You pick a character, you fight other characters. If that's not a fighting game to you, see a doctor.

Ally what the fuck are you doing?

It's a friendly match from six years ago. Neither player was doing anything particularly impressive, aside from that good prediction on the Flame Choke into down air at the end.

Is this supposed to be funny?

Seth Macfarlane/10

think you mean that manlet seth green

...

Was gonna make a post just like this one. Thank you user.

Side note - I'm cringing at the amount of people in this thread who parrot memes and platitudes about Melee with no actual knowledge of how the game is played competitively.

Absolutely none of this is true. Anyone who says this shit is guaranteed to have zero knowledge about the game and never tried playing the game competitively. Either that or they did try - but then got pissy and quit when they realized tech skill takes practice and you can't just beat people by rolling around and flicking the C-Stick.

Holy fuck people, just form your own opinions for once. Watch the game, learn about what you're talking about before you contribute to the discussion. If you can't take the time to and would rather just spread misinformation, then don't even bother talking about it. I'm not being an elitist over this game, it definitely has its issues, but I can't stand when people talk about games they don't have any knowledge about. It's kind of a really pussy, autistic version of virtue signalling.

I thought the same thing when I played Guacamelee and realized how much it feels like Smash

What will happen on the next installment? Port or a brand new entry?

I earnestly like Melee. I still think it's a top contender for best in the series. The adventure mode was a fun romp, the challenges were interesting, and as unbalanced as the fighters were and as much as the unintended mechanics separated casuals from hardcore competitive faggots, they were still fast-paced and fun to play.

Brawl slowed everything down way too much, and the rebalancing just made everything feel awkward, but I still genuinely enjoyed it; I just felt like Melee was a better game, even if both games were subjectively good.

It's a platform brawler, not a fighting game

Smash isn't a fighting game, and Smashfaggots killed the FGC, then turn around and wonder why they're so hated. It's literally the only fucking game anyone plays around here anymore. I wouldn't care if they played Melee, at least it actually takes skill and isn't a literal slog-fest with a low skill ceiling that everyone's dick-wagging to get to to the top in (almost as bad as a fucking MOBA in that regard.) good luck finding any Tr4sh 4 fags who play literally any other "fighting game." If they do, it's always dogshit like Street Fighter 5 and that's if you're lucky.

[citation needed]

No, but at least melee felt like one the most and everything that came after was nowhere near as challenging or as fun as it.

Also, fuck Smash 4 will all its newfag and 3rd party pandering instead of focusing more on drawing attention and adding more Nintendo characters from obscurity or characters that would actually fit in well to the game. Give me Chibi Robo or Rayman over Cloudy and Bayobitch any day.

I didn't think it was possible for smash to make me bored. I'm rather glad Ridley wasn't playable in it, since there isn't anything to do in it

Not really. Its just classic and adventure. and adventure is always the same stages for every character so its not really special.

more accurate would be Brawl having even more single player content with stickers which was kinda cool.

The difference here is that Power Stone 2 in particular, the items are garbage unless you spend a few hours in the VMU game.

THEN you unlock the bullshit like the dragon allies and the spiked tennis racket. Hoo boy.

How much do you think it pisses nintendo off that fans still demand gamecube controller support for every new smash bros game?

you forgot a couple.

Not much, considering they can just release an overpriced adapter that every wannabe eSports nigger will buy instantly.

Urban Champion and the VirtualBoy boxing robots, never ever. Wait until we get an Overwatch character.

Is Little Mac a bad guy?

all right, I'll bite, satan.
"that one guy" isn't the only high level luigi. While abate has gotten some of the best results out of luigi, other luigis consistently perform at a top 32 level, such as luigikid and eddie mexico. At the same time, shiek main plup went luigi during a major and made it all the way to top 5. At the same time, amsa's yoshi isn't the only high level yoshi, as vectorman is a decently high level threat when not in supermajors, and avalancer in Europe is also a strong competitor in euro tournaments.

Otherwise, you're not entirely wrong.

what is wrong, is everything you say about brawl.
This is actual bullshit. Meta knight wipes the floor with the entire cast so hard that even the stupidest of children could beat a "high level" peach. Icies can infinitely grab and regrab anyone to death. Diddy's banana shenanigans shut down so much of the cast. I don't even know who else people use in brawl, but I can guarantee marth and flacco still cockslap most of the lower cast. I've forced myself to sit through several brawl tournaments, and never have I seen a character lower than marth being in play. I saw a Dedede once, but he got knocked out by an ice climbers player using infinite regrabs.
Meanwhile, players like A rookie in melee have manages to oust several top 100 players, almost beating HugS, who is around top 25.
Brawl's roster is huge, but its balance is arguably worse.

Smash 4 might be the most balanced, as its top tier has more diversity, but its still typically limited to those top tier characters winning the majors, like every other smash game (or competitive game that involves fighting in general)

I'll be honest, I initially hated smash 4 (and did for the next year or year and a half) but after a shit ton of updates and patches, its finally at least a little bit more recognizable as a smash game since at least some of the characters have combos out of something other than down throw

Smash Bros is a fighting game because Sakurai's intention of creating Smash Bros in the first place was to create an accessible fighting game(Much like how Kirby was created to be an accessible platformer). The party game bullshit didn't come until Sakurai saw people playing the game at the ludicrously high levels possible in Melee, because that went against Sakurai's philosophy of being an accessible fighter.
So then he started spewing this bullshit narrative of how Smash Bros is just a party game and then he put in mechanics for to directly kill all the competitive aspects of Melee. Dash dancing will make you trip(also lose momentum when you turn around while dashing), no more directional air dodges so you can't wavedash, he just intentionally gutted everything that made melee competitve because he was a butthurt sack of shit.
I'm glad Mashed Potato Samurai is gone, maybe whoever they put in charge of the series going forward will respect the fans and see the success of Splatoon as an esport and take the fucking gameplay design seriously.

all available in following installments, those which have even more single player content.

I think you forgot the part where they overhauled everything that made melee fun from the physics to the techniques for the express purpose of lowering the skill ceiling so casuals can feel like they're as good as the big boys.

What's funniest about that whole story is that the "ludicrously high levels" that Sakurai saw aren't even good enough to win a single tournament set nowadays. He'll never appreciate how deep the game he made is.

I just wanted to say that I absolutely cannot fucking stand the Smash Bros. community at large, in addition to most of the fighting game community, but I've never been quite been able to put my finger on as to why I feel this way.

I think he, and Nintendo, are just afraid of isolating non-autistic tournament types.

Lots of elitists and autism.

And the humor is great.